#101 Edited by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew said:

@SlimJ87D: but superman is faster than a bullet we've seen him catch up to bullets and catch bullets all the time..where as im not sure we have ever seen ss fly faster than the solar winds..

not to mention when that comic was published i doubt there knowledge on the solar winds was accurate,so its hard to say how fast he really is from that scan

Yes, it's obvious that he is faster than a speeding bullet, we see him doing it, and it narrates it. Same as the scan that we see Silver Surfer move at a blur and says he can move at Solar Wind speeds.

Show me evidence that they didn't understand Solar winds when the comic was published. Clearly solar winds was defined for them to use the term.

@ReVamp said:

@SlimJ87D said:

Take as you want but it clearly says what it says. Otherwise Superman saying he's faster than a speeding bullet without using flight is a hyperbole as well.

Not true.

You also don't understand my point, did you just jump in mid post?

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#102 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: eh im just goin off of what you said, "Take as you want but it clearly says what it says. Otherwise Superman saying he's faster than a speeding bullet without using flight is a hyperbole as well." im saying that if using that logic superman can't actually go that speed while running, then flash who only runs, and moves WAY faster than a speeding bullet is also unrealistic if not more so then superman doing it. I see that you know this already tho, so just puttin' it out there, the point you were trying to make though was that statements are not always correct unless it is seen done, right?

#103 Edited by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days: I showed him a scan of Silver Surfer saying he can move at solar winds with the artist drawing a blur from where Silver Surfer was originally when Hulk tried to punch him. He responded by saying that he's talking about hsi traveling speeds. I responded with the Hulk even acknowledges that the Silver Surfer was talking about his combat speed. The then called it hyperbole. I then responded with if we can't believe what Silver Surfer says and clearly does in the scan then why should we believe what Superman also clearly says and does?

If you jumped in mid conversation, you wouldn't have understood that point. You would have just saw my last sentence and therefore you took it the way you did.

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#104 Edited by 80sBaby (1347 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: your analogy is waaaay off. The difference is that we've seen Superman move faster than a speeding bullet. In the scans you posted, we don't see Surfer moving faster than solar winds. We see him moving fast but he's not up against solar winds there so its not a direct comparison like with Superman against bullets.

#105 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: we know supes can do it because we see him do it like u said, where as ive never seen ss move at solar wind speed..have u actually seen him in scans doing this?

and my point is that solar winds can vary from 300-800km/sec huge gap for what the truth may be

#106 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: About that though, if you are saying that he can based off of him dodging hulk (not saying he can't but just based off of that).....then yeah i don't know about that, i mean spider man can dodge hulk but he can't...........well you know where this is going. I wouldn't use that feat AT ALL to prove anyone's speed. Just saying, moving faster than a speeding bullet and doing just that, holds more weight than dodging hulk and talking about solar winds, the difference is MASSIVE.

#107 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby said:

@SlimJ87D: your analogy is waaaay off. The difference is that we've seen Superman move faster than a speeding bullet. In the scans you posted, we don't see Surfer moving faster than solar winds. We see him moving fast but he's not up against solar winds there so its not a direct comparison like with Superman against bullets.

Lets make this conversation more controversial. Silver Surfer dodged the Hulk's blow, and says he moves at Solar Winds.

Have you seen Hulk's feats? He's thrown Fing Fang Foom to the moon. That's farther than Escape velocity, Fing Fang Foom would have had to be moving much faster than Escape velocity to reach the moon. You know what that means? The Hulk's arm was moving faster than escape velocity which is Mach 34. He's also launched himself into orbit a number of times, performs thunderclaps that require enough force and pressure greater than speeds of sounds which lifts cars into the air. The only difference is that the Hulk doesn't have the mindset like Superman and Flash where they can tune up their mindset.

Give me any kind of logical reasoning as to why Hulk doesn't move at such speeds with his limbs when he performs his feats without blaming it on comics to support your argument.

@jameshebrew said:

@SlimJ87D: we know supes can do it because we see him do it like u said, where as ive never seen ss move at solar wind speed..have u actually seen him in scans doing this?

and my point is that solar winds can vary from 300-800km/sec huge gap for what the truth may be

Just because they vary doesn't' change the fact that the lowest speeds a solar wind can be doesn't mean it isn't fast, and isn't dozens of times faster than a speeding bullet.

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#108 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

with supes speed and brute strength and the fact that ss cant use his cosmic awareness to exploit supes weaknesses i can see the man of steel taking this

#109 Posted by Onemoreposter (4101 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman wins. Everyone always uses Surfer's energy/matter manipulation to give him the win. However, Darkseid's omega beams are the same thing. They've been used to take life, restore life, and rearrange the molecules of different beings. Superman has been shown to be resistance to this. Supers is superior in strength and combat speed. Given his super senses he could spot the surfer half a star system away and heat vision his face off.

#110 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby:

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

@SlimJ87D: About that though, if you are saying that he can based off of him dodging hulk (not saying he can't but just based off of that).....then yeah i don't know about that, i mean spider man can dodge hulk but he can't...........well you know where this is going. I wouldn't use that feat AT ALL to prove anyone's speed. Just saying, moving faster than a speeding bullet and doing just that, holds more weight than dodging hulk and talking about solar winds, the difference is MASSIVE.

I've debated with a few users on this notion, but Hulk can throw his punches faster than a bullet. There is absolutely no way he could perform he feats he does without doing so. it's really hard for me to reiterate everything that I have wrote before. All I can do is point you to how I feel about the subject here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/speed-vs-strength-common-misconceptions/608680/

As for catching Spider-man, Spider-man has pre-cog he should be able to move out of the way of things before they are even fired. Yet hulk has been able to catch him once he knew where Spider-man was exactly.

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#111 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: that was PIS and u know it..hulk is no where near the speeds were talking about..

it says hes FASTER than a speeding bullet,,we have seen him travel much faster that a bullet thats just a analogy

#112 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew said:

with supes speed and brute strength and the fact that ss cant use his cosmic awareness to exploit supes weaknesses i can see the man of steel taking this

Where's the evidence that Silver Surfer doesn't' get his cosmic awareness? Silver Surfer has been shown to scan alien physology with the power of cosmic so he could understand their weaknesses. he has been shown to pick up energy signatures, why isn't he going to notice that Superman's body is absorbing yellow energy?

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#113 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D:

@80sBaby: @WaveMotionCannon: cosmic awareness states that the users mind becomes 1 with the universe there in..being that superman isnt from that universe ss would not be able to determine his weaknesses

by definition ss could not use cosmic awareness

#114 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: thats not what im getting at, the bullet thing was for superman and superman alone, the solar wind thing was for hulk. the fact that surfer can dodge hulk doesnt prove that he is faster than a solar wind (i know he is already but hulk is a bad example).

#115 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew said:

@SlimJ87D: that was PIS and u know it..hulk is no where near the speeds were talking about..

it says hes FASTER than a speeding bullet,,we have seen him travel much faster that a bullet thats just a analogy

BS, it's not PIS, and it happened in Spider-man's own comic. Hulk has the speed he just doesn't' have the mindset to control it like Sentry, etc.

Give me a good explanation as to how he throws objects out of orbit faster than escape velocity (Mach 34). Are you going to blame it on PIS when he has done it multiple times? Or how he performs Thunderclaps moving only at peak human levels where Zoom does it using pure speed alone?

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#116 Posted by 80sBaby (1347 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: But the correct answer is because it IS a comic. You can't take away resoning of the medium to use real world physics to prove your point. Even IF Hulk is faster than a bullet that doesn't make him as fast as solar winds. Show me where it states Hulk moves at Mach 34 without using real world physics. See how that works? Hulk doesn't have superspeed is a FACT. He can move pretty darn fast, true but he's not Flash or Superman so outmaneuverng him doesn't equate to being faster than either of them. Deathstroke tags Flashes/Kid Flashes all the time but doesn't have FTL reflexes. This is a comicbook not real life so the rules don't always make sense nor do they have to.

#117 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: @80sBaby said:

@SlimJ87D: But the correct answer is because it IS a comic. You can't take away resoning of the medium to use real world physics to prove your point. Even IF Hulk is faster than a bullet that doesn't make him as fast as solar winds. Show me where it states Hulk moves at Mach 34 without using real world physics. See how that works? Hulk doesn't have superspeed is a FACT. He can move pretty darn fast, true but he's not Flash or Superman so outmaneuverng him doesn't equate to being faster than either of them. Deathstroke tags Flashes/Kid Flashes all the time but doesn't have FTL reflexes. This is a comicbook not real life so the rules don't always make sense nor do they have to.

this is true man, also super/hyper sonic speed is not listed as 1 of hulks abilitys no matter how much u want it to be

#118 Posted by jashro44 (25512 posts) - - Show Bio
@jameshebrew: He isn't depowered without. Not sure if he can fly.
#119 Posted by spiderbuck (2452 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't we all just agree Surfer Stomps and just share some ice cream or something?

#120 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: from what ive seen he cant fly without his board, at least ive never seen him do it

#121 Posted by Immortal777 (7735 posts) - - Show Bio

If this is in character supes could do what thanos did a take sufer out with 7 hits I mean really surfer in character always fist fights when he shouldnt

#122 Posted by NEEK_03 (1200 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck said:

Can't we all just agree Surfer Stomps and just share some ice cream or something?

what kind of ice cream? and no im not convinced surfer wins let alone stomps.

#123 Edited by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer takes it. he has a wide amount abilities that allows him to fight multidimensional while Superman can only take the fight physically to Silver Surfer. Arctic breath and heat vision will do very little against the power of cosmic.

@80sBaby: Because it's a comic? And yet he is able to tag a speedster like the Sentry? Are you goign to blame that on comics and PIS too? I've heard that argument before. Nice try.

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#124 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: no hes right everything in comics doesnt have to be able to be explained with science in fact it usually cant be

#125 Edited by 80sBaby (1347 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: It's not a "try," its fact. Real world physics have nothing to do with comics so why bring them up? Baseball pitchers throw balls at 100mph but they can't run nor can they fight at those speeds. Now, show me Surfer moving faster than solar winds. That Hulk scan ain't cuttin' it.

#126 Edited by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby said:

@SlimJ87D: It's not a "try," its fact. Real world physics have nothing to do with comics so why bring them up? Now, show me Surfer moving faster than solar winds. That Hulk scan ain't cuttin' it.

So I guess him managing to tag the runner with a energy blast ain't either. Sure Silver Surfer lost, but the fact that he was able to have a battle with the runner and perceive the things the runner was performing is evidence enough that he can have a fight with Superman on his board.

The Runner was only able to knock Silver Surfer off his board because he was monstrously faster than the Surfer was and yet the Surfer was able to react to the Runner, call his board back and tag him once. The Runner only won because his energy manipulation was stronger than the Surfer's. Putting our debate as to how fast Silver Surfer is aside, the Runner couldn't speed blitz the Surfer and the fight went to who could manipulate energy better. Superman doesn't have such energy abilities like the runner to help him win this fight.

Again, Silver Surfer wins.

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#127 Posted by WillPayton (9828 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer is way more powerful than Superman. Surfer wins!

#128 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway......Norrin stomps (but not against sun-dipped superman)

#129 Posted by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@80sBaby said:

@SlimJ87D: It's not a "try," its fact. Real world physics have nothing to do with comics so why bring them up? Now, show me Surfer moving faster than solar winds. That Hulk scan ain't cuttin' it.

So I guess him managing to tag the runner with a energy blast ain't either. Sure Silver Surfer lost, but the fact that he was able to have a battle with the runner and perceive the things the runner was performing is evidence enough that he can have a fight with Superman on his board.

The Runner was only able to knock Silver Surfer off his board because he was monstrously faster than the Surfer was and yet the Surfer was able to react to the Runner, call his board back and tag him once. The Runner only won because his energy manipulation was stronger than the Surfer's. Superman doesn't have such energy abilities like the runner to help him win this fight.

I am all in agreement here.

Surfer brings far too many tricks to this party.

#130 Posted by 80sBaby (1347 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: OK. 1. Tagging Sentry or any other speedster doesn't mean you can move at their top speeds. 2. Spedsters get tagged by slower people ALL THE TIME. Do the Rogues have superspeed? No. Yet they're able to hit the Flash. 3. No, it's not PIS. It's the fact that speedsters don't always move at their top speeds and the fact that Hulk IS fast (just not a speedster.) 4. He's also missed hitting opponents due to their being faster than him (which has been stated on panel,) such as Spidey, Wolverine and Cap. 5. Don't assume what I'm going to say.

#131 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: ya but superman has more invounarbility enough to take the energy manipulation if ss even gets a chance to use it..if supes speed blitz right away he wont have that chance

man of steel can pull this 1 off

#132 Posted by WillPayton (9828 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

Anyway......Norrin stomps (but not against sun-dipped superman)

Surfer sucks all the "sun-dipped" energy out of Superman and then kills him in any way he wants.

#133 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby: just to be sure, you do know that the general consensus is that Surfer wins right?

#134 Posted by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew said:

@SlimJ87D: ya but superman has more invounarbility enough to take the energy manipulation if ss even gets a chance to use it..if supes speed blitz right away he wont have that chance

man of steel can pull this 1 off

Supes, rarely if ever speed blitzes right out of the gate. So that is a big if there my friend.

As for the rest, I have seen no proof that Supes can resist getting the solar energy drained out of him by someone with the skill/power/ability of SS with the power cosmic.

#135 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: Lol, no, it takes time to suck the energy of someone faster than you, who (while sundipped) can speed blitz you, while there is nothing you can do about it. So once again, this isnt pokemon where they stand and await an attack, this is open combat where if you arent fast enough, you die.

#136 Posted by 80sBaby (1347 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Yes, the Runner fight works but the Hulk one doesn't nor did your analogy for Superman. That's all I was saying. And, yes, I've said from the start Surfer wins.

#137 Posted by 80sBaby (1347 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_Of_Days: Yes, I'm aware and agree.

#138 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby: ok just checking, Since it is of unanimous decision, someone lock this thread and make a sun-dipped superman vs surfer thread.

#139 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong: he rarely uses it because if he did he would be unstoppable and would make for bad comics, i think in this case he would.

and i have not seen evidence that ss can drain supes

u cant just say drain and it instantly does it that takes time and time is somthing ss doesnt have

superman takes this fight

#140 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew: I see no evidence to sugest superman (not sun-dipped) can win, he's fighting a faster opponent, who has powers like martian manhunter (not telepathy though). Anyway, superderp cant win here since cosmic awareness + matter manipulation/transmutaion = kryptonite/ red sun koolaid down sup's throat.

#141 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days: @80sBaby: @WaveMotionCannon: cosmic awareness states that the users mind becomes 1 with the universe there in..being that superman isnt from that universe ss would not be able to determine his weaknesses

by definition ss could not use cosmic awareness

and how is ss faster than superman in combat, im not taking about travel speed that has no bearing here

#142 Posted by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew said:

@Wyldsong: he rarely uses it because if he did he would be unstoppable and would make for bad comics, i think in this case he would.

and i have not seen evidence that ss can drain supes

u cant just say drain and it instantly does it that takes time and time is somthing ss doesnt have

superman takes this fight

And fights by forum rules are stated to be in character, which for Supes, not speedblitzing his way through every fight was truly in character, no matter the writer's reasoning. I also didn't say drain and it happens instantly. I stated earlier Surfer has far too many tricks to bring to the party, and I have yet to see a single reason to sway from the point of view that Supes can win. Convince me without an out of character speedblitz scanario. Convince me that Supes has what it takes to deal with someone with the vast power at the Surfer's command. And I will read it tomorrow when I wake. Night all=)

#143 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew said:

@Ancient_0f_Days: @80sBaby: @WaveMotionCannon: cosmic awareness states that the users mind becomes 1 with the universe there in..being that superman isnt from that universe ss would not be able to determine his weaknesses

by definition ss could not use cosmic awareness

and how is ss faster than superman in combat, im not taking about travel speed that has no bearing here

Provide a canon source for this please. I am curious to see your intel here.

And Surfer keeping up with the runner makes a good case my friend, and if he is not faster, he could keep up...but again...how often does Supes use his speed in combat? Not often...

#144 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5688 posts) - - Show Bio
@jameshebrew It's been stated ALOT of times that in the battle threads EVERYBODY'S powers work at optimum levels so SS cosmic awareness will work in this situation. This prevents BS arguments about who's power would work in who's universe. For all intents and purpose both guys are at top levels.
#145 Posted by KalTheHokage_2007 (651 posts) - - Show Bio

If this is regular superman, surfer takes this one with ease. Supes' strong, but the surfer has many long range abilities that put him on top. If this was a stronger version of Superman, say Kal Kent or SA Superman, then Superman.

#146 Posted by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

@WaveMotionCannon said:

@jameshebrew It's been stated ALOT of times that in the battle threads EVERYBODY'S powers work at optimum levels so SS cosmic awareness will work in this situation. This prevents BS arguments about who's power would work in who's universe. For all intents and purpose both guys are at top levels.

And I can back this play...wait...supposed to be in bed now...oops...night again=)

#147 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5688 posts) - - Show Bio
@NEEK_03 Because SS fights from a distance and he flies faster than Supes how can he close the distance once he realizes he's getting his ass handed to him?
#148 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@KalTheHokage_2007: Already been said dude, alot...........Anyway.....CLOSE THIS THREAD

#149 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong:

Determining what is done for the plot and what is done because of the characters involved can be hard for some people. Superman is a prime case. In comics, Superman rarely uses his speed offensively. This is done for plot, to prolong the story and make it interesting (though it can also be said that it's a part of his character and not done solely because it benefits the story). In comics, Superman doesn’t kill. He does not spare his enemies because of the plot, he spares them because it’s part of his character not to kill thanks to how he was raised. In battles on the forum we include CIS, but not PIS, so Superman uses his speed but generally doesn’t kill unless otherwise stated. (“Bloodlust”)

I think characters like Superman are considered borderline PIS/CIS when it comes to this. I just assume if they can speedblitze they will.

Regardless, I still don't see Superman taking this.

#150 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameshebrew said:

@Ancient_0f_Days: @80sBaby: @WaveMotionCannon: cosmic awareness states that the users mind becomes 1 with the universe there in..being that superman isnt from that universe ss would not be able to determine his weaknesses

by definition ss could not use cosmic awareness

and how is ss faster than superman in combat, im not taking about travel speed that has no bearing here

James, please stop using this as an escape goat to back up your argument. Read the forum rules as to what the characters get to use and don't use. If you're going to say that cosmic awareness won't work then the power of cosmic won't work either. It doesn't make sense in this fight besides to just handicap and benefit your argument.

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