#1 Edited by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

Scenario: Asajj Ventress, Durge and General Grievous crash land on Kashyyk. There, they discover a younger Darth Sidious and engage him in a duel to the death.

Silver's Team:

Darth Sidious - http://www.comicvine.com/emperor-palpatine/29-16164/

James' Team:

Durge - http://www.comicvine.com/durge/29-47112/

Asajj Ventress - http://www.comicvine.com/asajj-ventress/29-46932/

General Grievous - http://www.comicvine.com/general-grievous/29-44582/

Rules:

  • This is RotE Sidious (around 52BBY) and Pre-TCW Grievous.
  • Standard equipment for all.
  • Regular morals and mindsets apply.
  • Random encounter. No prep.
  • Victory via death, KO, or incapacitation.
  • Duel is in the Shadowlands - Unpopulated
  • Combat begins 20 meters apart

Let the debate begin:

( , )

#2 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

This will have a number of variables, and this is close, I think. To be honest, despite her being the only Force sensitive on your team, I would actually consider Ventress the least threatening character on your team. She may be the only one who can provide a natural defense against Force attacks (though that may be an irrelevant comparison given Durge and Grievous' durability), but she also is less physically powerful than Grievous or Durge and less difficult to drop. All Palpatine really needs to kill Ventress would be a solid lightsaber strike or a concentrated telekinetic burst. Grievous and Durge would prove more durable. 
 
Combatively speaking, I think an argument could be developed between these characters as to who is the most skilled. Pre-TCW Grievous, by Dooku's estimation and by objective feats, is a superior combatant to Ventress, but is he a superior combatant to Sidious? By this point, Palpatine has no displayed individual dueling feats. However, there are other areas we can draw conclusions from. 1) He and Plagueis defeated an army of the most adroit Kursid warriors, armed with nothing but their physical stats and force pikes. 2) Sidious was trained in lightsaber techniques by Plagueis, and that should carry the connotation that he and Plagueis have sparred one another. And for the sake of preempting a counterargument over the semantic value of a sparring match, Sith sparring is hardly relenting. When Sith train, they put their lives on the line, because they believe that if a Sith is so "weak" that they die during paltry training, they are too weak to be true Sith Lords. Plagueis himself is a somewhat impressive duelist, based on what is known about his knowledge and what was shown of his prowess. 
 
3) Sidious had already mastered lightsaber combat by this time. In fact, he stored one of his twin lightsabers in his neuranium sculpture already (and it remained there until Revenge of the Sith). With that said, Sidious was beginning to fully cultivate his career in politics by this time period, and his exercises for swordplay had been reduced. In the following years, he primarily studied other Sith arts focusing on the Force, not lightsaber practice. With that said, what does that imply? Well, in the years following this time (since Sidious had already found the infant Maul), he trained Maul in lightsaber combat and defeated him more than once rather comfortably (both during Maul's formative years and when Maul was an adult Sith). I would say holding a skillful edge over Darth Maul is a reputable feat. Granted, it was accomplished following the time frame established in the OP, but as I said, Sidious had not trained in saber combat much after this, based on what we know. He spent less time receving lightsaber training and instead began training Maul with a lightsaber. He had already completed that stage and adjusted his attention to the Force and the manipulation of galactic events. 4) Of note also is Sidious' preferred combat style. In most of his duels, Sidious method of fighting appears to be Juyo, with a mixture of other forms adapted to as needed. He tends to run at and around his foes, striking at them constantly until they fall. This is how most of his duels are fought, and it seems reasonable to conclude that this was how he was trained to fight, meaning how he would fight here. His ruthless combat tendencies could lean in his favor, as his speed and striking power could be a problem for Ventress or Grievous.
 
How does that compare with Ventress or Grievous? With Ventress, it should at least place Sidious at her level, if not above it. With Grievous, it should render a tantamount ranking. Do I consider Sidious at this point to necessarily exceed Grievous' fighting abilities? No. But the combination of Sidious' impressive degree of skill, his physical potency, and his tremendous Force power should suffice. If it came to a duel between Sidious and Grievous or Ventress individually, I would certainly favor Sidious, not because he may or may not be more skilled but because of his capabilities as a whole. What about both though? Sidious' Force-enhanced physicality supersedes either one, barring durability (since Grievous is obviously more durable than he is). If both Ventress and Grievous dueled Sidious simultaneously, I question whether he would be able to beat both purely with his blade. Fortunately, he has other alternatives. 
 
Sidious' Telekinesis by this point is rather overwhelming. He was able to contort a bulkhead and strangle people to death before being formally trained. Following his training, he has shattered a doorway inward and casually pulled down a mansion ceiling. To substantiate that Sidious could utilize his TK mid-combat, he has also levitated a few guards while concurrently deflecting a dozen or so guards' blaster fire with his lightsaber.

Cosinga took a step in Palpatine's direction, only to be hurled back against the bulkhead separating the communications room from the main cabin. A female voice from behind the closed hatch asked in distress, "What was that?"
Nursing an injured shoulder, Cosinga looked suddenly like a trapped animal, his eyes wide with surprise and fear. He made a move to strike the handplate and open the hatch, but Palpatine thwarted his effort without raising a finger. Twisting violently around, Cosinga fell over one of the acceleration chairs, bloodying his face as it struck the armrest. A pounding began against the hatch.
"Guards!" Cosinga shouted, but the word had barely left his lips when the bulkhead against which he was slouched buckled inward, heaving him face-first to the floor and driving the breath from him. Palpatine stood rooted in place, his hands trembling in front of him and his face stricken. Something stirred behind his incandescent eyes. He heard the pounding on the hatch and whirled.
"Don't come in! Stay away from me!"
"What have you done?" It was his mother's voice, panicked. "What have you done?"
Cosinga pushed himself to his knees and began a terrified retreat, leaving smears of blood on the deck. But Palpatine was advancing on him now.
"If the Force birthed you, then I curse it!" Cosinga rasped. "I curse it!"
"As I do," Palpatine growled.
The hatch began to slide to, and he heard the voice of the guard who had escorted him from the Jafan III. "Stop!"
"Cosinga!" his mother screamed.
Palpatine pressed the palms of his hands to his head, then in eerie calm streaked to the hatch, pulled the surprised guard through the threshold, and tossed him clear across the cabin. 
Raising his face to the ceiling, he shouted, "We're all in this now!"

Once more Sidious allowed his memories to unfold, and he relived the crimethe event, as he had at last come to think of it. His father's limp and blooded body. The smashed skulls of the bodyguards. His hands clenched around his mother's slender throat—but not really, only in his mind, strangling her with his thoughts. The lifeless forms of his siblings, slumped here and there...

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 

He sprinted up the stairs to the next floor, where he heard a cacophony of human voices muffled by the thick door to a nearby room. Blowing the door inward with a Force push, he took a wide stance in the shattered doorway and positioned the blade of the thrumming lightsaber vertically in front of him.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis 

Now Sidious gave full vent to his ire. Crashing through the doors, he landed in the center of a table covered with plates of grains and grassy plans and surrounded by a herd of grazing Gran, whose boisterous laughs froze in their throats. From the head of the table, Pax Teem gawked at him as if he might be a creature escaped from his most horrifying nightmare. And yet he wouldn't be the first to taste Plagueis's blade but the last; once he had been forced to watch the rest of his party butchered, from hooves to eyestalks; the painted ceiling brought down by Sidious's Force pull; the flames of a gentle gas blaze in the room's fireplace incited to a blistering inferno that Sidious tugged behind him as he soared from the table to the floor and closed on his final victim.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 

Through the weapon’s glow he saw a dozen or more Santhe guards in uniform seated around a table littered with food and drink containers gape at him in disbelief before reaching for weapons fastened to their hips or scurrying for others buried beneath the rubble of their celebratory meal.
Sidious waded into the room, returning volleys of blaster bolts from those first to fire, then attacked, raising his left hand to levitate two guards into midair before running his blade through each of them.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 
But what really sets his overall power apart from Ventress (since I am confident in Ventress' ability to replicate these feats, though maybe not with the ease or lack of training under which Sidious did them) is this: 

How effortless it would behe thought, as the dark began to rise in him, searing and hungry, yearning to assume control of his body and unleash itselfto break the necks of both of them, to tear their beating hearts from their chests, to hurl and plaster them against the walls, to bring the entire sour-smelling place down on their heads...
But he didn’t. He needed to meet his abductor. He needed to learn the names of all those responsible. He needed to prove to his Master that he was adroit and capable—a true Sith Lord.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 
Effortlessly destroying the Shimmersilk Restaurant... The obvious retort would be, "But he never did that." No, but why would he lie? He has nothing to prove to anyone else. In fact, he never even said this out loud. This was his own musing, and he thought it as he felt the dark side rushing to "unleash itself." Under the inspiration of power that the dark side provides him and with there being no motive for him to lie to himself, I see no reason to assume this was an empty consideration, especially since Palpatine has similarly mused over destroying buildings on other occasions as well (such as in Rebel Force: Target). Moreover, the ease with which he tore down building ceilings (which I gave a quote for above) lends itself to credit that thought. If Palpatine can readily knock down buildings, that is a severe power advantage that would play to his favor. Ventress has been telekinetically disarmed and KO'd by Dooku before and been telekinetically beaten by Anakin, neither of whom is quite as powerful as Sidious is. Palpatine could feasibly duplicate that effect. Now, it may not be easy to if he is under pressure from Grievous and Durge as well, but his TK could afford him some leverage. 
 
Durge, I presume, would attack Sidious mostly with his weaponry (though of course he can engage in close quarter combat as well). His weapons should be easy enough to evade. Palpatine's feats in deflecting fire should be more than enough to highlight his reaction time. Grievous and Ventress, he can duel straightforwardly and keep at bay via TK. TK may not be the best means to KO or kill Grievous (unless Sidious exercised the precision to Force Crush Grievous' skull or what few internal organs he has, but I doubt that would happen for a majority), but despite that, his raw telekinetic output could force Grievous into a disadvantageous position. It may not be as easy to accomplish as it would be against Ventress, on account of Grievous' durability (which is enough to tank starship laser cannons), but it can help. Mostly though, I think Palpatine's TK would aid him against Ventress. While defending against Grievous and Ventress (and evading Durge's attacks, whether they come from a distance or at close range), he can launch telekinetic barrages at her. He could also pull down trees or scatter portions of the terrain. Naturally, Ventress could adopt these tactics also but with much less efficiency than Sidious could. If he can sustain an output for a protracted enough period, he could well disarm her, kill her telekinetically, or find an opening to slash her with his blade. That could also happen to Grievous eventually, though I do think Grievous would last longer than Ventress would.

Setting them aside for a minute, the primary challenge Durge presents is his ability to survive. Sidious' best option against Durge would probably be Lightning. Unfortunately, the earliest time we have seen Palpatine actually project Lightning was 32BSW4. We do know that he had been trained in use of Force Lightning but to what extent is uncertain.

This was not the life he had imagined for himself ten years earlier when he had sworn loyalty to the dark side of the Force. His hunger to be in closer contact with the Force, to be an even more powerful Sith, knew no bounds. But how was he to know when he had arrived at some semblance of mastery? When Plagueis told him?
He regarded his trembling hands.
Would his ability to summon lightning come more effortlessly?


--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 
Of course, Sidious may not know that Durge is susceptible to electricity, but if he discovers that lightsaber wounds and telekinetic barrages are ineffective, he could resort to it. Durge has withstood electrical attacks before but with harm, and since we have no idea how powerful Sidious' Lightning was at this point, it could be difficult to determine how damaging it would be. However, Force Lightning has the added property of bleeding out the life force of the victim, a trait standard electricity lacks. That attribute could serve to inflict maximum injury to Durge. Ventress and Grievous could block Lightning with their blades; although if Lightning were to connect with Grievous, that could be fatal for him as well, since it could short out his machinery. I have to wonder who Sidious would aim to kill first, unless, that is, he simply rushes his enemies and kills whoever he can without partiality. With that said, Durge might be a plausible first target, just because of his interference in lightsaber dueling. I would definitely not say this for every encounter but possibly for a majority though there is room for ambiguity. Out of Durge's weapons, Sidious could respond the way Anakin did and telekinetically hurl back some of Durge's armory back at him. If Sidious were to reflect back one of Durge's electric bolas, that in particular could be devastating for Durge. All in all, I think the best way for Sidious to defeat him would be Lightning in conjunction with TK to immobilize Durge (as Anakin did) and occasional lightsaber strikes to temporarily disarm Durge (literally); he could also approach Durge the way Obi-Wan did in CW and slice him apart. Durge would reconstitute himself but not instantly. Although Sidious may not be expecting Durge to regenerate, it could still present an opportunity for him to incapacitate or kill Durge's severed parts. 
 
As a whole (and this analysis does not cover everything), this is a close fight. Considering the number of opponents he faces, Sidious may elect to unleash his telekinetic power. This is partly conjectural though, since Sidious has never been in this type of situation at this point (that we know of). However, fighting multiple enemies is not new to him. He and Plagueis beat armies of Kursid warriors and killed several Maladians. But circumstances where Sidious is more pressed (as I believe he would be here) would most likely prompt him to vent his power. This is especially probable given his less controlled rage. At this time period, Sidious was not quite as reserved and patient as he was later. He was still composed and conservative of his powers, being a politician in disguise among thousands of Jedi, but he was still in training. Given the opportunity to release his powers (which he has expressed a desire to do) and if pushed enough to become thoroughly loathing (as I believe he would be here), I see no reason why he would conserve his powers. This is not to say he would instantly defeat your team, but he can deal destruction that most likely not be surmountable for your team in a majority of rounds. If nothing else, he could viably telekinetically throw back via Force Waves two of your team members so that he can briefly concentrate on one, which would benefit him as it could give him the chance to kill one of your team members unimpeded. I would give this to Sidious 6/10. Your team may still win by sheer quantity of attack. Ventress wields two blades, Grievous four, and Durge has a variety of weaponry to abuse. Sidious' downfall here could be the amount of attacks sent his direction (though, again, I would cite Palpatine's track record against armies of warriors and armies of droids firing at him as an argument against that). But your team's downfall could be Sidious' ferocity with a lightsaber and power expenditure.
#3 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Firstly, until the end there, it seems to me that you are considering Sidious vs Ventress or Grievous, not so much together. That was my first thought upon my initial reading.

While i think you underestimate Ventress to some degree, i do concur that she is the weakest link on my team. However i think it would take more than a concentrated telekinetic burst. If that alone could kill her, wouldn't Anakin have killed Ventress many times before. I will agree though that a single lightsaber strike could kill her. But again, i don't think that will happen easily.

Combatively speaking, I think an argument could be developed between these characters as to who is the most skilled. Pre-TCW Grievous, by Dooku's estimation and by objective feats, is a superior combatant to Ventress, but is he a superior combatant to Sidious? By this point, Palpatine has no displayed individual dueling feats. However, there are other areas we can draw conclusions from. 1) He and Plagueis defeated an army of the most adroit Kursid warriors, armed with nothing but their physical stats and force pikes. 2) Sidious was trained in lightsaber techniques by Plagueis, and that should carry the connotation that he and Plagueis have sparred one another. And for the sake of preempting a counterargument over the semantic value of a sparring match, Sith sparring is hardly relenting. When Sith train, they put their lives on the line, because they believe that if a Sith is so "weak" that they die during paltry training, they are too weak to be true Sith Lords. Plagueis himself is a somewhat impressive duelist, based on what is known about his knowledge and what was shown of his prowess.
3) Sidious had already mastered lightsaber combat by this time. In fact, he stored one of his twin lightsabers in his neuranium sculpture already (and it remained there until Revenge of the Sith). With that said, Sidious was beginning to fully cultivate his career in politics by this time period, and his exercises for swordplay had been reduced. In the following years, he primarily studied other Sith arts focusing on the Force, not lightsaber practice. With that said, what does that imply? Well, in the years following this time (since Sidious had already found the infant Maul), he trained Maul in lightsaber combat and defeated him more than once rather comfortably (both during Maul's formative years and when Maul was an adult Sith). I would say holding a skillful edge over Darth Maul is a reputable feat. Granted, itwas accomplished following the time frame established in the OP, but as I said, Sidious had not trained in saber combat much after this, based on what we know. He spent less time receving lightsaber training and instead began training Maul with a lightsaber. He had already completed that stage and adjusted his attention to the Force and the manipulation of galactic events. 4) Of note also is Sidious' preferred combat style. In most of his duels, Sidious method of fighting appears to be Juyo, with a mixture of other forms adapted to as needed. He tends to run at and around his foes, striking at them constantly until they fall. This is how most of his duels are fought, and it seems reasonable to conclude that this was how he was trained to fight, meaning how he would fight here. His ruthless combat tendencies could lean in his favor, as his speed and striking power could be a problem for Ventress or Grievous.

Honestly, on lightsaber skills i think Grievous is fairly even with Sidious. Although i will admit that Sidious is likely slightly better due to the Force.

My problem with point 1), is that when Plagueis and Sidious defeat the army, they aren't using lightsabers, or training sabers. but Force Pikes. These pikes don't require use of the Force or lightsaber forms. However it is still impressive that he managed to defeat them.

Point 2). Plagueis is somewhat impressive. I will give you that. This may seem rude, but what is the source that they train with great fury. For the record i do believe you are correct, but i don't remember if that was the Banite Line of Sith or not. My other point, and correct me if i'm wrong, but Plagueis placed greater priority on the Force and political powers. He mentions in the novel that Venamis would have done well in Bane's Sith because Venamis was a fighter. So while Sidious was most definitly trained in the arts of the Lightsaber, and is likely skilled in it, i find doubt that he would be incredibly skilled in the art. Now i want to make clear that i am not saying that Sidious is a bad duelist, far from it. I'm simply not so sure that he is the dazzingly swordsman from later.

3). You say that he defeated Maul comfortably several times. And that is true. However, Maul was not in his prime when Sidious defeated him. The source i'm thinking of is when Maul is told by Sidious to kill him. Maul tries hard and Sidious annihilates Maul. This is the last time i remember them dueling. (i may very well be wrong). Maul reaches his prime after he kills Qui-Gon. during TCW. Therefore we can only attribute Sidious to being above Qui-Gon's level of ability.

4. Sidious' style, as you describe it, shouldn't be particularly harmful to Grievous. Grievous was only able to be defeated by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was highly skilled in Soresu, the defensive style. You know this. Therefore, it seems unlikely to me that Grievous could be readily defeated by quick strikes. Also, you mention Sidious' speed as being a problem for Grievous, but i'm not so sure it would be. Grievous has been proven to be incredibly fast. His speed was enough to contend with Mace Windu.

How does that compare with Ventress or Grievous? With Ventress, it should at least place Sidious at her level, if not above it. With Grievous, it should render a tantamount ranking. Do I consider Sidious at this point to necessarily exceed Grievous' fighting abilities? No. But the combination of Sidious' impressive degree of skill, his physical potency, and his tremendous Force power should suffice. If it came to a duel between Sidious and Grievous or Ventress individually, I would certainly favor Sidious, not because he may or may not be more skilled but because of his capabilities as a whole. What about both though? Sidious' Force-enhanced physicality supersedes either one, barring durability (since Grievous is obviously more durable than he is). If both Ventress and Grievous dueled Sidious simultaneously, I question whether he would be able to beat both purely with his blade. Fortunately, he has other alternatives.

I agree that Ventress is slightly below Sidious level, but not to a degree that she would lose quickly. Grievous on the other hand i would place slightly above Sidious. But same as the Ventress-Sidious level, not by much. Together, i don't see Sidious out-dueling them, especially once you factor in Durge.

Effortlessly destroying the Shimmersilk Restaurant... The obvious retort would be, "But he never did that." No, but why would he lie? He has nothing to prove to anyone else. In fact, he never even said this out loud. This was his own musing, and he thought it as he felt the dark side rushing to "unleash itself." Under the inspiration of power that the dark side provides him and with there being no motive for him to lie to himself, I see no reason to assume this was an empty consideration, especially since Palpatine has similarly mused over destroying buildings on other occasions as well (such as in Rebel Force: Target). Moreover, the ease with which he tore down building ceilings (which I gave a quote for above) lends itself to credit that thought. If Palpatine can readily knock down buildings, that is a severe power advantage that would play to his favor. Ventress has been telekinetically disarmed and KO'd by Dooku before and been telekinetically beaten by Anakin, neither of whom is quite as powerful as Sidious is. Palpatine could feasibly duplicate that effect. Now, it may not be easy to if he is under pressure from Grievous and Durge as well, but his TK could afford him some leverage.

I skipped the book quotes, as i have no quarrel whatsoever with them. However, i do have a problem with the idea of destroying the restaurant. While i don't think Sidious would lie in his internal monologue, we do know that he has a penchant for exaggerating his own power. (not to say that he's weak, he's not, just not as strong as he thinks) Further, even if he did manage to destroy the shimmersilk restaurant, there's no accounting for how weak he would be afterwards. Could he destroy it? honestly i think so, but i don't think he could do that and continue dueling nonchalantly. He'd be weakened to some degree by that. To the feat of tearing down ceilings, Ventress ripped down teh ceiling rocks when she was auditioning for Dooku in the Clone Wars mini. However, i do agree that Sidious could manage to telekinetically disarm and or defeat Ventress. I'm not sure exactly how great his TK would be when he's facing seven blades. Note that i intentionally said 7 blades. I'll get to it in a minute.

Durge, I presume, would attack Sidious mostly with his weaponry (though of course he can engage in close quarter combat as well). His weapons should be easy enough to evade. Palpatine's feats in deflecting fire should be more than enough to highlight his reaction time. Grievous and Ventress, he can duel straightforwardly and keep at bay via TK. TK may not be the best means to KO or kill Grievous (unless Sidious exercised the precision to Force Crush Grievous' skull or what few internal organs he has, but I doubt that would happen for a majority), but despite that, his raw telekinetic output could force Grievous into a disadvantageous position. It may not be as easy to accomplish as it would be against Ventress, on account of Grievous' durability (which is enough to tank starship laser cannons), but it can help. Mostly though, I think Palpatine's TK would aid him against Ventress. While defending against Grievous and Ventress (and evading Durge's attacks, whether they come from a distance or at close range), he can launch telekinetic barrages at her. He could also pull down trees or scatter portions of the terrain. Naturally, Ventress could adopt these tactics also but with much less efficiency than Sidious could.

I think Durge would wait and ambush Sidious when he had the chance, similarly to how he ambushes Kenobi. But yes, he'd use his weaponry. I agree that Sidious should be able to deflect the majority of shots.

Sidious i think might be able to duel Grievous and Ventress on even ground if he uses TK, which should cause him to get weary. Since he has no prep or information on Grievous i don't think Sidious would think to attack Grievous organs. Palpatine's TK would be enough to defeat Grievous i think, if Grievous were acting alone. But with Ventress there to back him up, i think Palpatine would get rather weary at keeping the duo at bay. And that's ignoring Durge.

I'm honestly not quite sure that Palpatine could pull down trees. The majority of Trees in the Shadowlands are the base sections of the massive trees that hold villages. (At the moment i don't remember seeing many small trees in Kotor 1, which is where my knowledge of the Shadowlands comes from) At the very least, i don't think Palpatine would have the time to pull down a tree. I agree that Ventress couldn't mimic that well.

If he can sustain an output for a protracted enough period, he could well disarm her, kill her telekinetically, or find an opening to slash her with his blade. That could also happen to Grievous eventually, though I do think Grievous would last longer than Ventress would.

This right here, is where i think Sidious will struggle the most. He can definitely separate Ventress and Grievous, but not for incredibly long, and each time he does so he'll get ever so slightly weaker.

Setting them aside for a minute, the primary challenge Durge presents is his ability to survive. Sidious' best option against Durge would probably be Lightning. Unfortunately, the earliest time we have seen Palpatine actually project Lightning was 32BSW4. We do know that he had been trained in use of Force Lightning but to what extent is uncertain.

I'll be honest, i don't know that much about Durge. My knowledge of him comes primarily from the Clone Wars mini's. In those, he gets electrocuted, but manages to reverse it back to the storm troopers. So i'm not entirely sure Force Lightning would be able to kill him easily. So my question then, is does electricity really hurt Durge that badly?

This was not the life he had imagined for himself ten years earlier when he had sworn loyalty to the dark side of the Force. His hunger to be in closer contact with the Force, to be an even more powerful Sith, knew no bounds. But how was he to know when he had arrived at some semblance of mastery? When Plagueis told him?
He regarded his trembling hands.
Would his ability to summon lightning come more effortlessly?
--Taken from Darth Plagueis

In my opinion saying: "come more effortlessly" implies that it doesn't currently come effortlessly. Therefore, my thinking is that using Force Lightning drains Sidious to some extent.

Of course, Sidious may not know that Durge is susceptible to electricity, but if he discovers that lightsaber wounds and telekinetic barrages are ineffective, he could resort to it. Durge has withstood electrical attacks before but with harm, and since we have no idea how powerful Sidious' Lightning was at this point, it could be difficult to determine how damaging it would be. However, Force Lightning has the added property of bleeding out the life force of the victim, a trait standard electricity lacks. That attribute could serve to inflict maximum injury to Durge. Ventress and Grievous could block Lightning with their blades; although if Lightning were to connect with Grievous, that could be fatal for him as well, since it could short out his machinery. I have to wonder who Sidious would aim to kill first, unless, that is, he simply rushes his enemies and kills whoever he can without partiality. With that said, Durge might be a plausible first target, just because of his interference in lightsaber dueling. I would definitely not say this for every encounter but possibly for a majority though there is room for ambiguity. Out of Durge's weapons, Sidious could respond the way Anakin did and telekinetically hurl back some of Durge's armory back at him. If Sidious were to reflect back one of Durge's electric bolas, that in particular could be devastating for Durge. All in all, I think the best way for Sidious to defeat him would be Lightning in conjunction with TK to immobilize Durge (as Anakin did) and occasional lightsaber strikes to temporarily disarm Durge (literally); he could also approach Durge the way Obi-Wan did in CW and slice him apart. Durge would reconstitute himself but not instantly. Although Sidious may not be expecting Durge to regenerate, it could still present an opportunity for him to incapacitate or kill Durge's severed parts.

I think Sidious would only resort to lightning as a last resort if my understanding of your last plagueis quote is correct. Draining the life force would likely hurt Durge a lot, i give you that. I'm not entirely sure that electricity would kill Grievous, but it'd definitly wound him.

I think, Sidious would attempt to neutralize the greatest threat first, and in my opinion, he would think the greatest threat is Ventress, because she is Force Sensitive. Plausibly, Sidious could go for Durge first, in which case he'd likely slice up Durge (after a small amount of fighting) and think Durge dead. I think that woudl come back to bite Sidious in the butt.

I agree that Sidious best bet of killing Durge is lightning, but i think Durge using Force Lightning would drain him majorly. He'd have to kill Grievous and Ventress first in my opinion.

As a whole (and this analysis does not cover everything), this is a close fight. Considering the number of opponents he faces, Sidious may elect to unleash his telekinetic power. This is partly conjectural though, since Sidious has never been in this type of situation at this point (that we know of). However, fighting multiple enemies is not new to him. He and Plagueis beat armies of Kursid warriors and killed several Maladians. But circumstances where Sidious is more pressed (as I believe he would be here) would most likely prompt him to vent his power. This is especially probable given his less controlled rage. At this time period, Sidious was not quite as reserved and patient as he was later. He was still composed and conservative of his powers, being a politician in disguise among thousands of Jedi, but he was still in training. Given the opportunity to release his powers (which he has expressed a desire to do) and if pushed enough to become thoroughly loathing (as I believe he would be here), I see no reason why he would conserve his powers. This is not to say he would instantly defeat your team, but he can deal destruction that most likely not be surmountable for your team in a majority of rounds. If nothing else, he could viably telekinetically throw back via Force Waves two of your team members so that he can briefly concentrate on one, which would benefit him as it could give him the chance to kill one of your team members unimpeded. I would give this to Sidious 6/10. Your team may still win by sheer quantity of attack. Ventress wields two blades, Grievous four, and Durge has a variety of weaponry to abuse. Sidious' downfall here could be the amount of attacks sent his direction (though, again, I would cite Palpatine's track record against armies of warriors and armies of droids firing at him as an argument against that). But your team's downfall could be Sidious' ferocity with a lightsaber and power expenditure.

Agreed. Sidious could unleash his telekinetic power, but Grievous is fast, very fast, and i think he could reach Ventress again without too much difficulty. I think Sidious would attempt to use his power to defeat Grievous and Ventress quickly, but i think he may also use too much too quickly. Your point about conserving his power is correct i think. But as i just said, he'd use too much too soon. His best bet right now is to overwhelming Ventress and kill her, something that can't be achieved lightly.

I think he would use a Force Wave to force my team apart, but Ventress is going to take at least thirty seconds to kill, and Grievous should be able to make it back in time.

His greatest threat to my team, i think, would be unleashing a massive Force Push against Grievous to launch him far enough away to kill Ventress. This can happen, but Sidious best bet is to unleash that quick enough. The longer the wait the weaker he gets. While Sidious won't hold back, i don't think he'd quickly unleash his strength either. You list his ferocity with a lightsaber, but i don't think that'd be enough to overwhelm Grievous and Ventress combined. in Labyrinth of Evil, Grievous fights Mace evenly, and thats without Grievous' massive speed.

Now on the offensive, i don't think Sidious could block the many strikes of Ventress and Grievous at once. Let's count. Ventress has two blades, and Grievous has four, or does he. First off, take a look at the picture you provided. you can count the lightsaber there. It's five. One in each arm and one in his foot. Sidious may be fast, but so is Grievous, and if Sidious is faster than Grievous (which i'm unconvinced of) i don't think it's by enough that he could effectively block five lightsaber strikes plus Ventress' blades, plus any blaster strikes from Durge.

Grievous is able to move faster than the speed of thought, and at speeds competitive with Mace Windu.

Ventress has managed to stalemate Obi-Wan Kenobi, who defeated Maul, same as Sidious. And this is when Kenobi is stronger.

Durge was able to move at a speed such that Kenobi appeared to be moving in slow motion to Durge. This boasts incredibly speed. While not enough to contend with Sidious in a close quarters fight, he should be able to at least strike Sidious.

So in conclusion, i don't think Sidious has the endurance or speed to stop my team in the majority of fights. Could he potentially unleash massive Force Wave that killed Ventress, or launches Grievous away? yes, but he doesn't generally do so, and i find it unlikely that he would in this case. Therefore i give it to my team 6 or 7 out of 10.

#4 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JamesKM716 said:

@Silver2467: Firstly, until the end there, it seems to me that you are considering Sidious vs Ventress or Grievous, not so much together. That was my first thought upon my initial reading.

Not my intent. I was just deconstructing the issue point by point. 
 .

While i think you underestimate Ventress to some degree, i do concur that she is the weakest link on my team. However i think it would take more than a concentrated telekinetic burst. If that alone could kill her, wouldn't Anakin have killed Ventress many times before. I will agree though that a single lightsaber strike could kill her. But again, i don't think that will happen easily.

I never meant to insinuate that any of your team would fall easily, but Palpatine can and very likely will kill her. Even if he loses, he would definitely not lose without dropping part of your team, and Ventress is the logical candidate to fall first. Pertaining to a telekinetic attack, yes, Palpatine can kill her that way. If you disagree, I would like to see an example where Ventress withstands a telekinetic attack as powerful as what Sidious can release. As for Anakin, he actually has beaten and nearly killed Ventress purely by TK before, and Anakin at the time was not as powerful a telekinetic as Sidious by this point is.


If Anakin could manage that, I fail to see why Sidious couldn't. Sure, it may not be so easy since he has other distractions (Grievous and Durge), but I would not rule that out of the realm of possibility.
 

Honestly, on lightsaber skills i think Grievous is fairly even with Sidious. Although i will admit that Sidious is likely slightly better due to the Force.

I would agree with you. It is somewhat difficult to say exactly how good Sidious is with a blade by this point, but my assessment fits, I believe. It should place him around Grievous' level. 
 

My problem with point 1), is that when Plagueis and Sidious defeat the army, they aren't using lightsabers, or training sabers. but Force Pikes. These pikes don't require use of the Force or lightsaber forms. However it is still impressive that he managed to defeat them.

No, but it requires a substantial amount of combat speed and combat knowledge and technique. 
 

what is the source that they train with great fury.

Not really sure what you're asking here. Could you reword this? 
 

My other point, and correct me if i'm wrong, but Plagueis placed greater priority on the Force and political powers. He mentions in the novel that Venamis would have done well in Bane's Sith because Venamis was a fighter. So while Sidious was most definitly trained in the arts of the Lightsaber, and is likely skilled in it, i find doubt that he would be incredibly skilled in the art. Now i want to make clear that i am not saying that Sidious is a bad duelist, far from it. I'm simply not so sure that he is the dazzingly swordsman from later.

I disagree. As I mentioned, Sidious had already stored away his lightsaber and later had to borrow Plagueis' for that very reason (where his second lightsaber was is anyone's guess, assuming he had already built it, that is). With that in mind, he had already mastered lightsaber combat and later went on to train Maul. Maul is one of the single best Sith swordsmen that ever lived, and Sidious trained and beat him. There is nothing indicating that Palpatine's own skill in the area of blade work had been any more refined through further praxis. Under that circumstance, I would hardly underestimate his abilities. Besides, if he is roughly the equal of Grievous, that alone would make him incredibly skilled. Additionally, Plagueis trained Palpatine in countless areas of combat. He trained Sidious to be able to recognize numerous forms of weaponry, and Sidious was a master of various martial arts disciplines by the time he trained Maul.

One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle of Naboo.

As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #1

"I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

3). You say that he defeated Maul comfortably several times. And that is true. However, Maul was not in his prime when Sidious defeated him. The source i'm thinking of is when Maul is told by Sidious to kill him. Maul tries hard and Sidious annihilates Maul. This is the last time i remember them dueling. (i may very well be wrong). Maul reaches his prime after he kills Qui-Gon. during TCW. Therefore we can only attribute Sidious to being above Qui-Gon's level of ability.

Hmm? Maul reaching his "prime" during TCW is highly suspect. The only area Maul has been proven to advance in by TCW is Force power (and even that can be debated, considering Maul never showed his full power before he died in TPM); I have seen nothing to suggest his combat skill similarly advanced. In fact, not only has he not evinced any distinctively improved skill, this response has nothing to do with my point. By TPM, Maul was already one of the best Sith swordmasters there ever was. He has several feats that put him on a high level among other duelists in the Rise of the Empire era, between beating Qui-Gon, beating Obi-Wan, beating Anoon Bondara, beating Darsha Assant, etc. This reply does nothing to really undermine my point. Sidious beating Maul is still a substantive feat.
 

4. Sidious' style, as you describe it, shouldn't be particularly harmful to Grievous. Grievous was only able to be defeated by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was highly skilled in Soresu, the defensive style. You know this. Therefore, it seems unlikely to me that Grievous could be readily defeated by quick strikes.

And yet Mace, whose form is an off-shoot of Juyo, provided a legitimate challenge to Grievous despite possessing inferior physical stats. Sidious barraging Grievous relentlessly would not go unfelt by him. Sidious is faster and at least as strong as Grievous, not to mention more violent with the added resource of a vast reserve of Force power. Obi-Wan had nothing to do with my point; he fights nothing like Sidious and is not as fast, powerful, or brutal as Sidious is. Palpatine can win by damage output. But since you brought up Obi-Wan, one of Obi-Wan's chief reactionary and defensive feats is deflecting fire from an army of droids:

An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...
Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith    

Funnily enough, Sidious has done something very similar to that:

On Hypori they were the prey, standing back-to-back in their black zeyd-cloth hooded robes at the center of concentric rings of droids, retrofitted by Baktoid Armor to function as combat automata. Two hundred programmed assailants—bipedal, treaded, some levitated by antigrav generators—armed with a variety of weapons, ranging from hand blasters to short-barreled burst-rifles. Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal. Made for delicate, long-fingered hands—as much a work of art as a weapon—the lightsaber thrummed as he waved the blade from side to side in front of him.
"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."
Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.
"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.
Rugged, uninhabited Hypori belonged to the Techno Union, whose Skakoan foreman, Wat Tambor, owed his seat in the Republic Senate to Damask Holdings. In exchange, the bionic humanoid had made Hypori available as a training ground for members of the Echani Sun Guard and provided the necessary battle droids. Calling in another favor, Hego Damask had requested a private session in the fabricated cityscape, so that Plagueis and his apprentice could be free to employ lightsabers—though only for the purpose of deflecting bolts rather than dismemberment or penetration.
When it came Sidious's turn to demonstrate his skill, Plagueis spoke continuously from behind him, adding distraction to the distinct possibility of inadvertent disintegration.
"A being trained in the killing arts doesn't wait for you to acquire him as a target, or establish him or herself as an opponent, as if in some martial arts contest. Your reactions must be instantaneous and nothing less than lethal, for you are a Sith Lord, and will be marked for death."
The droids continued to converge, ring after ring of them, until the floor was piled high with smoking husks. Plagueis issued a voice command that brought the onslaught to an abrupt end and deactivated his lightsaber.The pinging of cooling weapons, the hiss of escaping gas, the unsteady whir of failing servomotors punctuated the sudden silence. Alloy limbs spasmed and photoreceptors winked out, surrending their eerie glow. The recycled air was rotten with the smell of fried circuitry.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Do I contend that Sidious is as proficient a Soresu master as Obi-Wan? No, but I doubt he has to be. He is faster than Obi-Wan and has far more offensive power. Palpatine's own protective skills combined with his offensive technique and destructive capacity should be enough to handle Grievous and the others.
 

Also, you mention Sidious' speed as being a problem for Grievous, but i'm not so sure it would be. Grievous has been proven to be incredibly fast. His speed was enough to contend with Mace Windu.

So? Mace is slower than Grievous and slower than Sidious as well. 
 

I agree that Ventress is slightly below Sidious level, but not to a degree that she would lose quickly. Grievous on the other hand i would place slightly above Sidious. But same as the Ventress-Sidious level, not by much. Together, i don't see Sidious out-dueling them, especially once you factor in Durge.

I agree that Sidious would probably not outduel them, but this is where his power comes in to bridge the gap. 
 

I skipped the book quotes, as i have no quarrel whatsoever with them. However, i do have a problem with the idea of destroying the restaurant. While i don't think Sidious would lie in his internal monologue, we do know that he has a penchant for exaggerating his own power. (not to say that he's weak, he's not, just not as strong as he thinks) Further, even if he did manage to destroy the shimmersilk restaurant, there's no accounting for how weak he would be afterwards. Could he destroy it? honestly i think so, but i don't think he could do that and continue dueling nonchalantly. He'd be weakened to some degree by that. To the feat of tearing down ceilings, Ventress ripped down teh ceiling rocks when she was auditioning for Dooku in the Clone Wars mini. However, i do agree that Sidious could manage to telekinetically disarm and or defeat Ventress.

I might agree with you on that point were it not for the fact that 1) he felt the inspiration of power rising in him from the dark side that portended of its own unsatisfactorily concealed capacity, and 2) his effortless and untrained application of his TK in other areas, some not so mediocre, attests to its validity. Honestly, if he can crush entire bulkheads before his training, I hardly find it implausible for his powers to be propelled to building-toppling levels after more than a decade of training from one of the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith Lords. I could probably run on an argument based on powerscaling as well, but really, there is no need to. The quote stands for itself. He has no reason to lie to himself, and actually, Sidious by this point has admitted when he has a limitation before. Throughout the first decade or so of his training, Sidious repeatedly recognized Plagueis' power as far transcending his own, and he was constantly urging to grow in his understanding so as to continue developing his powers. Furthermore, this was not some idle threat. Sidious actually did want to just destroy his "abductors" utterly; the only reason he chose against it was to show tact to prove his acumen and subtlety as a Sith Lord. 
 
On a sidenote, Ventress collapsing a ceiling was not achieved with the ease of Sidious' feat.
 

I'm not sure exactly how great his TK would be when he's facing seven blades. Note that i intentionally said 7 blades. I'll get to it in a minute.

Setting aside the fact that Sidious has TK'd people while being fired at from around a dozen assailants, his travel speed should be able to handle that. As I mentioned before, Sidious' running speed mirrors Ventress and Grievous' own prior to his Sith training. Once trained, he showed that he could maintain pace with Plagueis, whose speed in all areas is noticeably superior to that of Ventress or Grievous. If need be, he can create a distance between himself and the others, and his agility, which at least rivals if not eclipses your team's, would strengthen that as well. Also, it is entirely possible for Sidious to simply disarm Ventress of at least one of her blades, considering Dooku has done that before. 
  

I think Durge would wait and ambush Sidious when he had the chance, similarly to how he ambushes Kenobi. But yes, he'd use his weaponry. I agree that Sidious should be able to deflect the majority of shots.

How is Durge supposed to ambush Sidious? He has no prep, and Sidious can sense him anywhere he hides. 
 

Sidious i think might be able to duel Grievous and Ventress on even ground if he uses TK, which should cause him to get weary. Since he has no prep or information on Grievous i don't think Sidious would think to attack Grievous organs. Palpatine's TK would be enough to defeat Grievous i think, if Grievous were acting alone. But with Ventress there to back him up, i think Palpatine would get rather weary at keeping the duo at bay. And that's ignoring Durge.

Why? Sidious has fought for hours on end before without tiring and has exercised for weeks while Plagueis inflicted severe bodily harm to him. What makes you think he would tire here? In fact, I could just as easily reverse this argument. What makes you think Ventress wouldn't tire repelling both Sidious' blade and his Force attacks? 
 

I'm honestly not quite sure that Palpatine could pull down trees. The majority of Trees in the Shadowlands are the base sections of the massive trees that hold villages. (At the moment i don't remember seeing many small trees in Kotor 1, which is where my knowledge of the Shadowlands comes from) At the very least, i don't think Palpatine would have the time to pull down a tree. I agree that Ventress couldn't mimic that well.

Ah. Tree size is something I forgot about. Point conceded. Nonetheless, my point mainly related to environmental advantages. If not trees, he can hurl around stones, boulders, branches, or whatever happens to be in the area. 
 

This right here, is where i think Sidious will struggle the most. He can definitely separate Ventress and Grievous, but not for incredibly long, and each time he does so he'll get ever so slightly weaker.

Based on what? When has Sidious' stamina or Force reserves ever been in question? He has one of the titanic amounts of Force potential and Force reserve of any character in the lore. What leads you to believe he would tire? 
 

I'll be honest, i don't know that much about Durge. My knowledge of him comes primarily from the Clone Wars mini's. In those, he gets electrocuted, but manages to reverse it back to the storm troopers. So i'm not entirely sure Force Lightning would be able to kill him easily. So my question then, is does electricity really hurt Durge that badly?

Yes. Every time Durge has been struck with electricity, he has always been hurt by it, staggered by it, sometimes floored by it (though not permanently). As I said though, Lightning has properties not found in standard electricity, and he has other means to harming Durge besides Lightning. 
 

In my opinion saying: "come more effortlessly" implies that it doesn't currently come effortlessly. Therefore, my thinking is that using Force Lightning drains Sidious to some extent.

This is entirely subjective. Your point might have some irrefutable merit if all it said was "lightning come effortlessly," and that was it. But "come more effortlessly" implies it already does come effortlessly to some extent. Besides that, Sidious has endured Force Lightning from Plagueis anyway as part of his training to learn Lightning. If he can survive it, I fail to see how it would weaken him so much to produce it, especially since I have literally never seen anyone become so drained by firing Lightning. In fact, Bane on his very first attempt with Force Lightning was not only galvanized by using it but wrecked a room with it. Why Palpatine, a character with Force abilities that oustrip Bane's, would struggle so much more with it is beyond me.
 

I think Sidious would only resort to lightning as a last resort if my understanding of your last plagueis quote is correct. Draining the life force would likely hurt Durge a lot, i give you that. I'm not entirely sure that electricity would kill Grievous, but it'd definitly wound him.

Which I doubt it is. 
 

I think, Sidious would attempt to neutralize the greatest threat first, and in my opinion, he would think the greatest threat is Ventress, because she is Force Sensitive. Plausibly, Sidious could go for Durge first, in which case he'd likely slice up Durge (after a small amount of fighting) and think Durge dead. I think that woudl come back to bite Sidious in the butt.

Not likely. If Durge reconsituted, Palpatine would sense it. As with your scenario where Durge sneaks up on him, the only way that could happen is if Sidious' danger sense and Force perception are overlooked. As well, Sidious would be able to sense whether Durge is dead or not; if he gathers through the Force that Durge is not only alive but still operable, there is a strong chance he would react to that.
 

I think he would use a Force Wave to force my team apart, but Ventress is going to take at least thirty seconds to kill, and Grievous should be able to make it back in time.

Ventress would not take thirty seconds to kill if she is on her own. Anakin and Dooku have beaten her in less time than that. 
 

thats without Grievous' massive speed.

No, that was with Grievous' massive speed. In fact, his massive speed is what allowed him to last. You seem to be implying that Grievous' mobility being restricted from his feet afflicted his speed; this is not the case. Grievous is not one to run around his enemies the way Sidious does. He usually marches toward them while spinning his lightsabers. His combat speed, which is the only pertinent issue here, was perfectly intact. His running speed is only useful for travel as it rarely if ever contributes to Grievous' attacks.
 

It's five. One in each arm and one in his foot.

Not relevant considering pictures are not canon and considering Grievous only carries four blades. 
 

Sidious may be fast, but so is Grievous, and if Sidious is faster than Grievous (which i'm unconvinced of) i don't think it's by enough that he could effectively block five lightsaber strikes plus Ventress' blades, plus any blaster strikes from Durge.

As I mentioned, Sidious' speed was enough to seemingly match that of Plagueis', who is definitely faster than anyone on your team, and his other individual feats show a similar speed level. Honestly, Palpatine has better speed feats than your team does. 
 

Grievous is able to move faster than the speed of thought

So could a nine-year old Anakin and Vader before reaching his prime... That hardly makes him as fast as Palpatine. 
 

and at speeds competitive with Mace Windu.

I still have no idea why you think this is so impressive. Mace is not as fast as Grievous even, let alone Sidious. 
 

Ventress has managed to stalemate Obi-Wan Kenobi, who defeated Maul, same as Sidious. And this is when Kenobi is stronger.

LOL @ this. Are you seriously treating Obi-Wan's "victory" over Maul as translatable to Ventress? Not only is that poor ABC logic, Obi-Wan lost his duel with Maul. He won by a surprise attack when Maul became overconfident. 
 

Durge was able to move at a speed such that Kenobi appeared to be moving in slow motion to Durge. This boasts incredibly speed. While not enough to contend with Sidious in a close quarters fight, he should be able to at least strike Sidious.

Doubtful. Palpatine is both faster and more agile than Anakin or Obi-Wan, and Durge's perception and reaction speed are only that: his perception and reaction speed. His combat speed, while apparently decent, has not definitively shown to be on the level of Anakin or Obi-Wan. Even if Durge did manage to hit him, he would survive it easily enough. Anakin and Obi-Wan both withstood several blows from Durge, and Sidious' durability feats are superior to theirs, between withstanding thirteen story falls to being unaffected by frigid weather to withstanding Plagueis' striking him with a lightsaber (the last quote will be later).

The Malastare ambassador’s residence occupied three mid-tier stories of a slender building located at the edge of the government district. The front of the residence looked out on the stand-alone Galactic Courts of the Justice Building, but the rear faced a narrow canyon that was more than fifty levels deep and off limits to traffic. Following directions furnished by Pestage, Sidious rode turbolifts and pedestrian walkways to a meager balcony ten levels above the upper story of the residence. His fury notwithstanding, he would have preferred to linger until nightfall, which came early to that part of Coruscant, but he was certain that the Gran were expecting word that the Maladians had satisfied the terms of the contract, and he couldn’t risk having them flee for the stars before he got to them. So he lingered on the balcony until it and the walkway in both directions were unoccupied, then jumped from the overlook and called on the Force to deliver him safely to a narrow ledge that ran beneath the lowest floor of the residence.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

By the time he left Kim's office the weather had turned sharply colder. Snow flurries were swirling around the palace towers, and the shallows to the Solleu tributaries were sheened with ice. The agent from Coruscant whom Plagueis had provided—Sate Pestage—was waiting in a small plaza behind the Parnelli Art Museum, warming his hands with his breath.
"The Naboo have never heard of climate control?" he commented as Palpatine approached.
Recalling his early conditioning sessions on glacial Mygeeto, Palpatine almost laughed at the man's remarks.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 

So in conclusion, i don't think Sidious has the endurance or speed to stop my team in the majority of fights. Could he potentially unleash massive Force Wave that killed Ventress, or launches Grievous away? yes, but he doesn't generally do so, and i find it unlikely that he would in this case. Therefore i give it to my team 6 or 7 out of 10.

Your entire argument rests on three crucial matters: That Sidious would tire, that Grievous is as fast as Palpatine, and that Sidious would neglect to release his telekinetic powers. All are inaccurate. Sidious, during his first weeks of training, underwent harsh exercise for weeks without rest, during which he lasted with Plagueis slashing at him with a lightsaber. Later on, he and Plagueis fought an army of Kursid warriors for hours without any note of tiring. The speed issue I have already handled above.

Scarcely listening, Sidious moved with utmost care, his hands and knees seeking firm purchase on the stones. For weeks Darth Plagueis had deprived him of sleep, food, and water. Now if only he could reach the Muun, his thirst would be slaked, his hunger sated, his contusions healed.

The Muun’s shadow fell over him. Arms folded across his chest, Plagueis loomed.
“If you’re to succeed in inhabiting both realms, Sidious—the profane world and that of the Force—you need to learn how to use guile to your advantage, and to recognize when others are employing it.” Without extending a hand, Plagueis tugged him to his feet. “If you can survive a few more days without sustenance or rest, I may be inclined to teach you.”

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Clawing his way across the tundra, his body rashed with lightsaber burns, Sidious looked up at Plagueis, imploringly.
“How much longer, Master?”
Plagueis deactivated his weapon’s crimson blade and scowled. “Perhaps a moment, perhaps an eternity. Stop thinking of the future, and anchor yourself in the present. A Sith apprentice is the antithesis of a Jedi youngling nurtured in the Temple, battling a floating remote with a training lightsaber. A Sith acquaints himself with pain from the start, and inflicts it, as well. A Sith goes for the throat, just as you did on your family’s starship.”
Sidious continued to gaze at him. “I meant, how much longer will it take me to learn?”
The Muun sized him up with a look. “Hard to tell. Humans are their own worst enemies. Your body isn’t meant to withstand real punishment. It is easily injured and slow to heal. Your olfactory and tactile senses are relatively acute, but your auditory and visual senses are extremely limited.”
“Have I no strengths, Master?”
Plagueis dropped to one knee in front of him. “You have the Force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future.”
Sidious swallowed and found his voice. “How long?”
Plagueis stood, reigniting the lightsaber as he did so. “Not a standard day sooner than a decade.”

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors—their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil—began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."
To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.
"Execute one, terrify one thousand," he said.
Hurling the warrior to the ground with a Force push, he used the lightsaber to deftly open the primitive's chest cavity; then he reached a hand inside and extracted his still beating heart.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Regarding his willingness to unleash his Force powers, I answered that already, but you never really addressed my point.

@Silver2467

said:

Considering the number of opponents he faces, Sidious may elect to unleash his telekinetic power. This is partly conjectural though, since Sidious has never been in this type of situation at this point (that we know of). However, fighting multiple enemies is not new to him. He and Plagueis beat armies of Kursid warriors and killed several Maladians. But circumstances where Sidious is more pressed (as I believe he would be here) would most likely prompt him to vent his power. This is especially probable given his less controlled rage. At this time period, Sidious was not quite as reserved and patient as he was later. He was still composed and conservative of his powers, being a politician in disguise among thousands of Jedi, but he was still in training. Given the opportunity to release his powers (which he has expressed a desire to do) and if pushed enough to become thoroughly loathing (as I believe he would be here), I see no reason why he would conserve his powers. This is not to say he would instantly defeat your team, but he can deal destruction that most likely not be surmountable for your team in a majority of rounds. If nothing else, he could viably telekinetically throw back via Force Waves two of your team members so that he can briefly concentrate on one, which would benefit him as it could give him the chance to kill one of your team members unimpeded.

#5 Posted by ShootingNova (15666 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be nice. Best of luck to both of you.

#6 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio
As for Anakin, he actually has beaten and nearly killed Ventress purely by TK before, and Anakin at the time was not as powerful a telekinetic as Sidious by this point is.

Now this is not true. He uses TK to wrap her in electrical cords. The Kashyyyk Shadowlands won't have many if any cords, and i highly doubt there would be any. Could Anakin have killed her without those cords? quite possibly, but it is an unknown. As to the source of her surviving a telekinetic strike as great as one of Sidious' i will concede that i have no source for that, but do we truly know just how great Palpatine's telekinetic strikes are? In looking at his TK feats, he's never faced a Force Sensitive who could respond with TK, he's only killed non Force sensitives. So will his TK be just as damaging? I'm not entirely convinced.

Next, we agree that Sidious is about on Grievous level of skill, good.

No, but it requires a substantial amount of combat speed and combat knowledge and technique.
(Me) what is the source that they train with great fury.
Not really sure what you're asking here. Could you reword this?

Agreed that it does take substantial combat speed and knowledge. And i was asking the source on Banite Sith lightsaber training being ferocious.

I disagree. As I mentioned, Sidious had already stored away his lightsaber and later had to borrow Plagueis' for that very reason (where his second lightsaber was is anyone's guess, assuming he had already built it, that is). With that in mind, he had already mastered lightsaber combat and later went on to train Maul. Maul is one of the single best Sith swordsmen that ever lived, and Sidious trained and beat him. There is nothing indicating that Palpatine's own skill in the area of blade work had been any more refined through further praxis. Under that circumstance, I would hardly underestimate his abilities. Besides, if he is roughly the equal of Grievous, that alone would make him incredibly skilled. Additionally, Plagueis trained Palpatine in countless areas of combat. He trained Sidious to be able to recognize numerous forms of weaponry, and Sidious was a master of various martial arts disciplines by the time he trained Maul.
Hmm? Maul reaching his "prime" during TCW is highly suspect. The only area Maul has been proven to advance in by TCW is Force power (and even that can be debated, considering Maul never showed his full power before he died in TPM); I have seen nothing to suggest his combat skill similarly advanced. In fact, not only has he not evinced any distinctively improved skill, this response has nothing to do with my point. By TPM, Maul was already one of the best Sith swordmasters there ever was. He has several feats that put him on a high level among other duelists in the Rise of the Empire era, between beating Qui-Gon, beating Obi-Wan, beating Anoon Bondara, beating Darsha Assant, etc. This reply does nothing to really undermine my point. Sidious beating Maul is still a substantive feat.

I added these together because my counterarguement uses both. Firstly, because Palpatine trained Maul doesn't that mean that he would know Maul's flaws? Palpatine would know the exact way to defeat Maul because Palp's spent years training the Zabrak. It's still an impressive feat, but not incredibly impressive.

In all honesty, i heard from someone else that Maul reached his prime in TCW, i do not have any type of source on that.

(though i want to point out that i thinks its funny that you originally wanted to include Maul on my team too, lol)

In the end though, this argument means little, as Maul is at least on Grievous level and we have already established that Palpatine is on Grievous level at this time.

And yet Mace, whose form is an off-shoot of Juyo, provided a legitimate challenge to Grievous despite possessing inferior physical stats. Sidious barraging Grievous relentlessly would not go unfelt by him. Sidious is faster and at least as strong as Grievous, not to mention more violent with the added resource of a vast reserve of Force power. Obi-Wan had nothing to do with my point; he fights nothing like Sidious and is not as fast, powerful, or brutal as Sidious is. Palpatine can win by damage output. But since you brought up Obi-Wan, one of Obi-Wan's chief reactionary and defensive feats is deflecting fire from an army of droids:

Alright, that's fair. But Mace elected to BFR Grievous rather than fight him in a straight duel. This implies, as we've discussed before, that Grievous could have won that fight.

Also, what speed feats does Sidious have at this time? From what i can tell, this is the best speed feat you've posted for him:

To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

These objects that Sidious is dodging do not move quickly. Er, they don't move incredibly fast as a blasterbolt would. While there are many of them, i see no reason why Grievous or possibly Ventress couldn't dodge them just as well. Perhaps it would take more effort, but not unbelievable at all.

I might agree with you on that point were it not for the fact that 1) he felt the inspiration of power rising in him from the dark side that portended of its own unsatisfactorily concealed capacity, and 2) his effortless and untrained application of his TK in other areas, some not so mediocre, attests to its validity. Honestly, if he can crush entire bulkheads before his training, I hardly find it implausible for his powers to be propelled to building-toppling levels after more than a decade of training from one of the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith Lords. I could probably run on an argument based on powerscaling as well, but really, there is no need to. The quote stands for itself. He has no reason to lie to himself, and actually, Sidious by this point has admitted when he has a limitation before. Throughout the first decade or so of his training, Sidious repeatedly recognized Plagueis' power as far transcending his own, and he was constantly urging to grow in his understanding so as to continue developing his powers. Furthermore, this was not some idle threat. Sidious actually did want to just destroy his "abductors" utterly; the only reason he chose against it was to show tact to prove his acumen and subtlety as a Sith Lord.

1). Fair enough, he probably could have crushed the building.

2). Sidious admitting a limitation once before does not mean he would do so again. And when exactly is the limitation said? is it to Plaguies? if so i would argue that Sidious was "lying" to Plagueis (i put it in quotes, because Sidious would consider it lying while it may not actually be a lie.)

My question of the quote then, is this: What suggests that he wouldn't get tired after destroying the building? Further, we have no indication of how much concentration it would take to destroy the building. I highly doubt that Sidious could replicate the feat while dodging at least six blades and a bounty hunter.

On a sidenote, Ventress collapsing a ceiling was not achieved with the ease of Sidious' feat.

Which feat exactly?

Setting aside the fact that Sidious has TK'd people while being fired at from around a dozen assailants, his travel speed should be able to handle that. As I mentioned before, Sidious' running speed mirrors Ventress and Grievous' own prior to his Sith training. Once trained, he showed that he could maintain pace with Plagueis, whose speed in all areas is noticeably superior to that of Ventress or Grievous. If need be, he can create a distance between himself and the others, and his agility, which at least rivals if not eclipses your team's, would strengthen that as well.

While being fired at form dozens of assailants is quite different than being upclose in a lightsaber duel. Sidious combat speed feat that you've shown is him dodgin arrows and axe strikes, and spears. These objects move far, far, far slower than Grievous or Ventress.

When did Sidious maintain that the same speed as Plagueis? in the speed feet i quoted above, it says the were "flying like wraiths" that doesn't mean they were flying at the same speed. I do agree that Plagueis is superior than all areas of Ventress and Grievous. I can agree that Palpatine rival's my teams speed. That is fair.

Also, it is entirely possible for Sidious to simply disarm Ventress of at least one of her blades, considering Dooku has done that before.

My argument against that (weak as it is) is that Ventress was self trained at that time, and hadn't likely faced a Duelist of Dooku's caliber.

Next up was my Durge argument, but i completely forgot about Sidious' Force Senses (stupid move) and therefore i consider it null and void. I'll make a new one once i finish counter arguing.

Why? Sidious has fought for hours on end before without tiring and has exercised for weeks while Plagueis inflicted severe bodily harm to him. What makes you think he would tire here? In fact, I could just as easily reverse this argument. What makes you think Ventress wouldn't tire repelling both Sidious' blade and his Force attacks?

My thought that he would tire here is that in order to defeat my team Sidious is almost definitly going to use TK or Lightning. My thinking was such that using these often would result in sapped strength. If i were correct, Ventress wouldn't be responding with TK or Lightning.

Ah. Tree size is something I forgot about. Point conceded. Nonetheless, my point mainly related to environmental advantages. If not trees, he can hurl around stones, boulders, branches, or whatever happens to be in the area.

Yes! you conceded something! :) from what i remember, and (this could be wrong) there weren't many boulders nor branches (most of those were higher up on the trees) But i concede that Palpatine could would Ventress with those.

Based on what? When has Sidious' stamina or Force reserves ever been in question? He has one of the titanic amounts of Force potential and Force reserve of any character in the lore. What leads you to believe he would tire?

My thinking, is that Sidious isn't in his prime, and could easily overestimate his strength in the Force. Plus, if he's constantly using TK/Lightning, then he'd eventually grow tired from that.

Yes. Every time Durge has been struck with electricity, he has always been hurt by it, staggered by it, sometimes floored by it (though not permanently). As I said though, Lightning has properties not found in standard electricity, and he has other means to harming Durge besides Lightning.

Then my question is: can Lightning kill him? (normal lightning, not Force Lightning)

Mace is slower than Grievous and slower than Sidious as well.

skipped this one, sorry. Again i ask for another combat speed feat.

This is entirely subjective. Your point might have some irrefutable merit if all it said was "lightning come effortlessly," and that was it. But "come more effortlessly" implies it already does come effortlessly to some extent. Besides that, Sidious has endured Force Lightning from Plagueis anyway as part of his training to learn Lightning. If he can survive it, I fail to see how it would weaken him so much to produce it, especially since I have literally never seen anyone become so drained by firing Lightning. In fact, Bane on his very first attempt with Force Lightning was not only galvanized by using it but wrecked a room with it. Why Palpatine, a character with Force abilities that oustrip Bane's, would struggle so much more with it is beyond me.

I accept your judgment on that. (I actually wen to check in the Bane novels, you were right)

Not relevant considering pictures are not canon and considering Grievous only carries four blades.

True that pictures aren't canon, but Grievous has been shown to wield a lightsaber with his foot before, and in the clone wars mini where he does so, there are three lightsabers on his belt, in addition to the two he had in his hands (the one he used with his foot was Ki-Adi Mundi's)

LOL @ this. Are you seriously treating Obi-Wan's "victory" over Maul as translatable to Ventress? Not only is that poor ABC logic, Obi-Wan lost his duel with Maul. He won by a surprise attack when Maul became overconfident.

Let's be real. That was one of my poorest arguments. I concede that one.

Fair enough, Sidious is pretty durable.

Your entire argument rests on three crucial matters: That Sidious would tire, that Grievous is as fast as Palpatine, and that Sidious would neglect to release his telekinetic powers. All are inaccurate. Sidious, during his first weeks of training, underwent harsh exercise for weeks without rest, during which he lasted with Plagueis slashing at him with a lightsaber. Later on, he and Plagueis fought an army of Kursid warriors for hours without any note of tiring. The speed issue I have already handled above.

1. Sidious would tire, but it would take so long that its a non-factor. So we'll drop that.

2. Have you handled it? I'm gonna look once more at every quote you've listed.... be right back. His only other "speed" feats are deflecting blasterbolts, which while impressive to an extant, is nothing Grievous or Ventress couldn't do.

3. If i said Sidious would neglect to release his telekinetic powers i apologize. He almost certeinly would.

Considering the number of opponents he faces, Sidious may elect to unleash his telekinetic power. This is partly conjectural though, since Sidious has never been in this type of situation at this point (that we know of). However, fighting multiple enemies is not new to him. He and Plagueis beat armies of Kursid warriors and killed several Maladians. But circumstances where Sidious is more pressed (as I believe he would be here) would most likely prompt him to vent his power. This is especially probable given his less controlled rage. At this time period, Sidious was not quite as reserved and patient as he was later. He was still composed and conservative of his powers, being a politician in disguise among thousands of Jedi, but he was still in training. Given the opportunity to release his powers (which he has expressed a desire to do) and if pushed enough to become thoroughly loathing (as I believe he would be here), I see no reason why he would conserve his powers. This is not to say he would instantly defeat your team, but he can deal destruction that most likely not be surmountable for your team in a majority of rounds. If nothing else, he could viably telekinetically throw back via Force Waves two of your team members so that he can briefly concentrate on one, which would benefit him as it could give him the chance to kill one of your team members unimpeded.

Hmm, i agree that Sidiious would unleash his TK power. Though he hasn't ever faced a Force Sensitive using TK so far (other than Plagueis), and therefore he may not know exactly what to suspect. I think Sidious would unleash it powerfully, and attempt to overwhelm his foes quickly. He would likely throw one back via Force Waves eventually, and while it would allow him a chance to kill the remaining team member, i'm not entirely sure how large of a chance that would be.

Sidenote: couldn't Grievous lock his feet into the ground like he does in space, or when he wants to hang from a ceiling?

Anyway, Here's one scenario that i see it going down. Sidious sees Grievous, Ventress and Durge and immedietly engages them. Ventress and Grievous unleash all of their lightsabers in an attempt to overwhelm the Sith. Sidious would likely send Ventress crashing back with a Force push, but wouldn't be able to overwhelm Grievous quick enough. Durge would likely engage by attempting to fire his blaster at Palpatine when achievable. Ventress would come back with both Sabers and attack, causing Sidious to unleash his Force Lightning. Grievous would be wounded by such an attack, and Durge too, but not to such an extent that they would be incapitated. Ventress would attempt to hold off Sidious, but would likely be overwhelmed and killed before Grievous and Durge could return to the fight. Sidious would rush back to strike Grievous, but the cyborg would fight on equal footing, along with Durge. Durge would probably use his electrical devices against Sidious, who would block and return them to Durge. Durge would be knocked down. Grievous would strike with a vengeance, attempting to overwhelm the Sith Lord through sheer amount of Strikes. Sidious would attempt to dodge and likely would succeed. Leaving the fight at an impasse. However, i think that should Sidious be struck by Durge during the duel, then Sidious would be somewhat surprised and distracted. The resulting dual thought process would cause the Sith to eventually lose the duel.

(You have no idea how tempted i am to mention Palpatine's penchant for getting shot in the back when distracted, i.e. how Han Solo shot Sidious in the back during Empire's End)

AS one can see the Duel is close, and that is but one scenario. In the end i give it to my team, 6/10

#7 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JamesKM716 said: 

Now this is not true. He uses TK to wrap her in electrical cords. The Kashyyyk Shadowlands won't have many if any cords, and i highly doubt there would be any. Could Anakin have killed her without those cords? quite possibly, but it is an unknown.

It makes little to no difference what he wraps her in or if he wraps her in anything at all. Anakin proved he could not only lift Ventress in the air and leave her helpless but that he could uphold that telekinetic control long enough to coat Ventress in debris. Palpatine is both more powerful than Anakin and more brutal. He has no need to entangle Ventress in anything at all. He could kill her telekinetically without objects anyway. The fact is, Anakin was able to hold up Ventress, encase her in objects, and then drop her off a skyscraper. If he can assert that much telekinetic power over Ventress, I am confident in Sidious' ability to as well. 
 

As to the source of her surviving a telekinetic strike as great as one of Sidious' i will concede that i have no source for that, but do we truly know just how great Palpatine's telekinetic strikes are? In looking at his TK feats, he's never faced a Force Sensitive who could respond with TK, he's only killed non Force sensitives. So will his TK be just as damaging? I'm not entirely convinced.

Not really relevant considering Ventress has been incapacitated by telekinetics of inferior quality to Palpatine. His history or lack thereof against Force sensitives is beside the point; the unobstructed telekinetic power he can unleash is all that matters. And Ventress has never proven she can neutralize a direct telekinetic ability of the magnitude Sidious can generate.
  

And i was asking the source on Banite Sith lightsaber training being ferocious.

Still not entirely sure I follow you, but if you were asking whether Sith training impresses on the student a fierceness that could very well claim their lives, then I would direct you to Plagueis' words about Palpatine surviving longer under harsh conditions, that Sith invite pain during training, that Sidious would at some point have to experience Force Lightning for himself to launch it himself.

The Muun’s shadow fell over him. Arms folded across his chest, Plagueis loomed.
“If you’re to succeed in inhabiting both realms, Sidious—the profane world and that of the Force—you need to learn how to use guile to your advantage, and to recognize when others are employing it.” Without extending a hand, Plagueis tugged him to his feet. “If you can survive a few more days without sustenance or rest, I may be inclined to teach you.”

Clawing his way across the tundra, his body rashed with lightsaber burns, Sidious looked up at Plagueis, imploringly.
“How much longer, Master?”
Plagueis deactivated his weapon’s crimson blade and scowled. “Perhaps a moment, perhaps an eternity. Stop thinking of the future, and anchor yourself in the present. A Sith apprentice is the antithesis of a Jedi youngling nurtured in the Temple, battling a floating remote with a training lightsaber. A Sith acquaints himself with pain from the start, and inflicts it, as well. A Sith goes for the throat, just as you did on your family’s starship.”
Sidious continued to gaze at him. “I meant, how much longer will it take me to learn?”
The Muun sized him up with a look. “Hard to tell. Humans are their own worst enemies. Your body isn’t meant to withstand real punishment. It is easily injured and slow to heal. Your olfactory and tactile senses are relatively acute, but your auditory and visual senses are extremely limited.”
“Have I no strengths, Master?”
Plagueis dropped to one knee in front of him. “You have the Force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future.”
Sidious swallowed and found his voice. “How long?”
Plagueis stood, reigniting the lightsaber as he did so. “Not a standard day sooner than a decade.”

Getting to his feet, Plagueis extended his long arms in front of him and loosed a storm of Force lightning that crackled over the landscape, igniting fires in the grass.
“A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer to one’s will.
“But the Force cannot be treated deferentially,” he added as a few final tendrils sparked from his fingertips. “In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself.”
Sidious watched the last of the brush fires burn out, then said, “Will I eventually be physically transformed?”
“Into some aged, pale-skinned, raspy-voiced, yellow-eyed monster, you mean. Such as the one you see before you.” Plagueis gestured to himself, then lowered himself to the ground. “Surely you are acquainted with the lore: King Ommin of Onderon, Darths Sion and Nihilus. But whether it will happen to you, I can’t say. Know this, though, Sidious, that the power of the dark side does not debilitate the practitioner as much as it debilitates those who lack it.” He grinned with evil purpose. “The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of.”

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

This is just how Sith train. From their perspective, if a student is incapable of tolerating severity, then that student was never worth training in the first place. This is there way of testing the student's resolve. Now, if this was not what you were asking and you were asking for proof that Sidious particularly is ferocious with a lightsaber, then all of his duels show that, not to mention his assassination of Pax Teem and everyone else in his home.

I added these together because my counterarguement uses both. Firstly, because Palpatine trained Maul doesn't that mean that he would know Maul's flaws? Palpatine would know the exact way to defeat Maul because Palp's spent years training the Zabrak. It's still an impressive feat, but not incredibly impressive.

Not really sure there is any point in responding to this since we already reached an agreement on Sidious' skill level, but in any case, the monumental amount of power and skill Sidious withheld in that duel refutes this. He only threw a few strokes Maul's direction; the rest of the time, he let Maul attack him. Despite that, he still won. 
 

(though i want to point out that i thinks its funny that you originally wanted to include Maul on my team too, lol)

I just listed Maul as a suggestion. I wasn't thinking of every single factor involved. 
 

In the end though, this argument means little, as Maul is at least on Grievous level and we have already established that Palpatine is on Grievous level at this time.

Agreed. 
 

Alright, that's fair. But Mace elected to BFR Grievous rather than fight him in a straight duel. This implies, as we've discussed before, that Grievous could have won that fight.

And I disagree with that interpretation. The fact that Mace chose to BFR Grievous rather than beat him is not indicative of a lack of ability on his part to defeat him; it just means he was more concerned over protecting the Chancellor than with prolonging a duel. Grievous has never beaten anyone on Mace's level anyway. He consistently loses to Dooku, who is a perfect equal with Mace. To suggest that Grievous could beat Mace for a majority is flawed, in my opinion. Could he have won a minority on even ground and even stipulations? Possibly. A majority? No. His feats include nothing that justifies this consensus. What I said before was that I respect your opinion, even if I disagree with it, which I still do. But this perceived outcome is unlikely. 
 

Also, what speed feats does Sidious have at this time? From what i can tell, this is the best speed feat you've posted for him:

To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

These objects that Sidious is dodging do not move quickly. Er, they don't move incredibly fast as a blasterbolt would. While there are many of them, i see no reason why Grievous or possibly Ventress couldn't dodge them just as well. Perhaps it would take more effort, but not unbelievable at all.

There are a few objections I would raise here. For one thing, we have no idea how fast the Kursid are as a species. Not all species have an equivalent physical functionality. For all we know, the Kursid could be superhuman by human standards or of only human-level speed. It is highly unlikely that they are slower than human's though, due to the Sith's frequent travel there. If these beings were less impressive than humans, the Sith in all likelihood would not regard their armies as a worthwhile rite. Pertaining to Ventress and Grievous, neither of them have proven that they can fight whole armies unscathed as Sidious did (he fought alongside Plagueis, but there were hundreds of enemies with the two of them disusing their offensive Force powers). Grievous has killed a company of clone troopers before, but a company is only 128 troops, and Grievous is impervious to blaster bolts. Ventress has never performed any combat achievements of this sort, and to solidify that contrast, characters of Ventress and Grievous' speed class have never beaten whole armies themselves ether. Anakin and Obi-Wan have been forced to flee from armies more than once (they have fought armies but never beaten armies). Others, like Plo Koon, have only struck down small portions of armies by attacking them from behind. Mace's victory over the army on Dantooine in Clone Wars is incongruous with his other showings. Mace has lost to an army in Clone Wars Adventures and on other occasions and needed the help of at least eight other Jedi to telekinetically push down an army of Yinchorri in Jedi Council: Acts of War. No one on Grievous or Ventress' speed or power class has ever defeated an entire army before, let alone done so without sustaining a single hit and without appropriating their projectile Force abilities. Your suggestion that Ventress or Grievous could complete a correspondent feat to Sidious' lacks evidential criteria.

For another thing, the fact that Sidious and Plagueis were described as "flying among them" depicts them as leaping into the masses of their enemies. In the air, they expose themselves as targets to far more Kursid than if they charged into their ranks straightforwardly on the ground (and even then, they would still have numerous opponents firing and striking at them). Lastly, this quote you gave partially answers your question. As I detailed above, this is not a feat Grievous or Ventress could match. As well, Sidious and Plagueis sprinted across a plain to confront the Kursid. If they ran together, that seems to imply that Sidious moved in pace with Plagueis, a showing that certainly outdoes both Grievous and Ventress. To give more information that conveys Sidious' moving as fast as Plagueis, note also their other activities together. Sidious and Plagueis traveled all around the world of Buoyant to "cull the weak" creatures from the strong by killing them and leaving the others. This proliferated a dark side aura that the two of them caused to penetrate the planet. Sidious and Plagueis ran and traversed the terrain on foot in many instances, and Sidious contended Plagueis' speed. 
 
Another one to analyze is their lightsaber training. Sidious was taught lightsaber dueling from Plagueis, and the two would have to have fought one another to practice (all masters and their apprentices duel one another, both Jedi and Sith). As I said before, Sith training is unforgiving. This is not to say that Plagueis would necessarily unhinge his full technique on Sidious in their first lessons (though no doubt, Plagueis did humiliate him in their early years together to foment Sidious' desire to kill Plagueis, a desire Plagueis stated in no uncertain terms he wanted Sidious to pursue), but as Sidious' procession into Sith arts matured over a decade and his physical power manifested itself to be around Plagueis' level, there would be no need to show mercy anymore. Sidious would have to be able to handle it, or else Plagueis would consider him unworthy of teaching. Am I saying that Sidious could necessarily beat Plagueis in a duel by 52BSW4? No (we have no idea one way or another), but his combat speed competing with that of Plagueis' is my underlying premise. If he can fight Plagueis, that shows speed over and above Grievous or Ventress, and yes, I think I can say with certainty that Plagueis and Sidious had dueled one another before.

On a sidenote, if you are of the persuasion that these attacks that Sidious and Plagueis dodged during that battle against the Kursid are not as fast as blaster bolts, then why is that the best speed feat for Sidious? From your perspective, why is this one not the best since he deflects blaster fire from a miniature army?

On Hypori they were the prey, standing back-to-back in their black zeyd-cloth hooded robes at the center of concentric rings of droids, retrofitted by Baktoid Armor to function as combat automata. Two hundred programmed assailants—bipedal, treaded, some levitated by antigrav generators—armed with a variety of weapons, ranging from hand blasters to short-barreled burst-rifles. Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal. Made for delicate, long-fingered hands—as much a work of art as a weapon—the lightsaber thrummed as he waved the blade from side to side in front of him.
"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."
Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.
"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.
Rugged, uninhabited Hypori belonged to the Techno Union, whose Skakoan foreman, Wat Tambor, owed his seat in the Republic Senate to Damask Holdings. In exchange, the bionic humanoid had made Hypori available as a training ground for members of the Echani Sun Guard and provided the necessary battle droids. Calling in another favor, Hego Damask had requested a private session in the fabricated cityscape, so that Plagueis and his apprentice could be free to employ lightsabers—though only for the purpose of deflecting bolts rather than dismemberment or penetration.
When it came Sidious's turn to demonstrate his skill, Plagueis spoke continuously from behind him, adding distraction to the distinct possibility of inadvertent disintegration.
"A being trained in the killing arts doesn't wait for you to acquire him as a target, or establish him or herself as an opponent, as if in some martial arts contest. Your reactions must be instantaneous and nothing less than lethal, for you are a Sith Lord, and will be marked for death."
The droids continued to converge, ring after ring of them, until the floor was piled high with smoking husks. Plagueis issued a voice command that brought the onslaught to an abrupt end and deactivated his lightsaber. The pinging of cooling weapons, the hiss of escaping gas, the unsteady whir of failing servomotors punctuated the sudden silence. Alloy limbs spasmed and photoreceptors winked out, surrending their eerie glow. The recycled air was rotten with the smell of fried circuitry.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 
Note also the description here: "Orbiting Sidious..." Plagueis' blade circled Sidious as he deflected blaster bolts, and of course, he would be forced to in order to strike away blaster bolts from droids that surrounded them on all sides. However, Plagueis' blade is not all that would need to. Sidious was standing while this was happening, and his lightsaber was drawn. Plagues possesses a good reach, but I doubt he could deflect fire from droids in every direction yet still stand stationary at Sidious' back. That would necessitate that he swing his blade around Sidious without moving himself. But even if Plagueis did stand perfectly still, Sidious would not be able to do that. Plagueis is taller than Sidious and was standing behind him. Sidious would have to run circles around Plagueis in order to catch all the blaster bolts. The statement that Plagueis "spoke from behind him" does not detract from this interpretation either since Sidious would constantly be facing the droids no matter which side of Plagueis he ran to. Now, what does this have to do with anything? It shows Palpatine outrunning blaster bolts. Plagueis and Sidious were standing in the middle of an army of two hundred droids that fired in rings from all directions. For Sidious to deflect the fire, he would have to move around Plagueis; otherwise, Plagueis would be shot in the back, just as Sidious would be shot if Plagueis had not orbited him (they may have simply deflected the blaster bolt themselves, but they would fail the test if the other had to deflect fire for them). For Sidious to adequately send away the flood of fire, he would have to run around Plagueis fast enough to repel the bolts. Outrunning blaster bolts is a better running speed feat than anything Ventress or Grievous have done, and it also adds to show Sidious' speed contesting with that of Plagueis'. Plagueis ran fast enough that 11-4D, who could dodge blaster bolts, was barely able to see him move. Outrunning blaster bolts is a feat both could accomplish.

As I said before, Sidious was running imperceptibly fast before his Sith training, and that feat already reveals a running speed even with Ventress and Grievous. Subsequent to a decade's worth of training, his speed should be vastly superior, and my above extrapolation confirms that, I believe. Between fighting armies untouched, running as fast as Plagueis, and overtaking blaster bolts, he is faster than Grievous or Ventress. 
 

2). Sidious admitting a limitation once before does not mean he would do so again. And when exactly is the limitation said? is it to Plaguies? if so i would argue that Sidious was "lying" to Plagueis (i put it in quotes, because Sidious would consider it lying while it may not actually be a lie.)

No, he admitted that Plagueis was more powerful in his own musings, more than once in fact:

Palpatine hadn’t been attempting to flatter Plagueis when he had called him wise—not entirely, at any rate. The Muun was powerful beyond Palpatine’s present understanding.

Go about your usual business, Plagueis said. But how could he be expected to behave as if nothing had happened, even in the interest of establishing an alibi? Did Plagueis expect him to return to the Uscru and finish lunch? Go for a stroll in Monument Plaza? Keep his appointment to meet with the inconsequential Bothan who chaired the Finance Committee?
He stormed away from the office window, victim of his own unreleased rage.
This was not the life he had imagined for himself ten years earlier when he had sworn loyalty to the dark side of the Force. His hunger to be in closer contact with the Force, to be an even more powerful Sith, knew no bounds. But how was he to know when he had arrived at some semblance of mastery? When Plagueis told him?
He regarded his trembling hands.
Would his ability to summon lightning come more effortlessly? What powers had Sith Lord Plagueis kept to himself?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 
Even a decade or so later, Sidious is still unsure about his standing with respects to Plagueis.

Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn’t be certain he had learned all of Plagueis’s secrets—“his sorcerer’s ways,” as the Sun Guards referred to them—including the ability to prevent beings from dying. He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind? Such questions were precisely what had driven generations of Sith apprentices ultimately to challenge their Masters. The uncertainty about who was the more powerful. The need to test themselves, to face the definitive trial. The temptation to take the mantle by force, to put one’s own spin on the power of the dark side—as Darth Gravid had attempted, only to set the Sith back countless years...

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

So, no, Sidious recognizing his own limitations is not unheard of, particularly at this time, and none of this was said to Plagueis either.
 

My question of the quote then, is this: What suggests that he wouldn't get tired after destroying the building? Further, we have no indication of how much concentration it would take to destroy the building.

The fact that it said he could do so easily. 
 

I highly doubt that Sidious could replicate the feat while dodging at least six blades and a bounty hunter.

As for doing so under attack from others, he has no need to. He can scatter them telekinetically and materialize that power at his leisure on any of them once he has breathing room. 
 
At this point, it seems you agree he could emit that prodigious a power level but question the circumstances under which he could. I have to ask though: If you trust that he could crush a building based on that quote, why not trust the entirety of the quote? In his musings under the stimulation of the dark side, he feels that he could accomplish it without much difficulty. If the part about his ability to demolish the building is true, why not the part about the effort required to do so?
 

Which feat exactly?

Sorry; I should have clarified. I was referring to when Sidious collapsed a ceiling. That was done with far more ease than Ventress' feat of collapsing a ceiling was. 
 

While being fired at form dozens of assailants is quite different than being upclose in a lightsaber duel. Sidious combat speed feat that you've shown is him dodgin arrows and axe strikes, and spears. These objects move far, far, far slower than Grievous or Ventress.

Those objects would not be dodged by Grievous or Ventress. As I said, no one on your team has shown the ability to fight whole armies without receiving a hit as Sidious did, and his combat speed feats outweigh your team's collectively. 
 
For the record, you asked for speed feats later on in your post as well, but I chose not to respond to them because I elaborated above.
 

My argument against that (weak as it is) is that Ventress was self trained at that time, and hadn't likely faced a Duelist of Dooku's caliber.

Dooku has TK'd Ventress later on as well. It was not a one-time event. And, no, Ventress was not self-trained. She was trained by a former Jedi on the battlefields on Rattatak.
 

My thought that he would tire here is that in order to defeat my team Sidious is almost definitly going to use TK or Lightning. My thinking was such that using these often would result in sapped strength. If i were correct, Ventress wouldn't be responding with TK or Lightning.

And I still disagree with you on that. Nothing shows him as tiring quickly, whether by his dispensation of TK or Lightning. 
 

Yes! you conceded something! :) from what i remember, and (this could be wrong) there weren't many boulders nor branches (most of those were higher up on the trees) But i concede that Palpatine could would Ventress with those.

I can't recall if there were any shown in KOTOR or Tyrant's Test either, but fair enough. 
 

My thinking, is that Sidious isn't in his prime, and could easily overestimate his strength in the Force. Plus, if he's constantly using TK/Lightning, then he'd eventually grow tired from that.

Again, I still have yet to see anything that suggests this. When Sidious fought Kursid, deflected fire from droids, killed Teem, killed Maladians, hunted on Bouyant etc., none of this exhausted him, and in some of these instances, he expended large amounts of Force abilities. When he assassinated Teem and his associates, he jumped from a thirteen story height, ran in a blur, deflected fire from a dozen guards, telekinetically shattered a doorway, telekinetically lifted two guards, leapt with enough force to break through doors, telekinetically pulled down a ceiling, and controlled fire with the Force. None of that taxed him heavily. He fought Kursid for hours never tired. Fighting Maladians and droids never tired him. Hunting creatures all over the surface of Bouyant never tired him. I am at a loss still for why this would tire him so much. If Sidious does tire, it would certainly not hinder his combative formidability much. Would he be tired after the fight? Possibly. But would fatigue arrest his powers from under him and leave him available to attack? Doubtful. That has never happened to him before; I have no reason to believe it would here. 
 

Then my question is: can Lightning kill him? (normal lightning, not Force Lightning)

Possibly, but even if not, it can incapacitate Durge. 

True that pictures aren't canon, but Grievous has been shown to wield a lightsaber with his foot before, and in the clone wars mini where he does so, there are three lightsabers on his belt, in addition to the two he had in his hands (the one he used with his foot was Ki-Adi Mundi's)

The OP says "standard equipment." Grievous' standard equipment is four lightsabers, not five. And even then, Grievous sometimes only brandishes two blades. He can and often does utilize four, but in some instances, Grievous duels with only two. It just depends on the situation. In this scenario, it might be safer to just assume he will employ four though. 
 

1. Sidious would tire, but it would take so long that its a non-factor. So we'll drop that.

We seem to be reaching agreements on multiple subjects, which is good. It will help us reach a final unanimity. 
 

Sidenote: couldn't Grievous lock his feet into the ground like he does in space, or when he wants to hang from a ceiling?

How would he lock his feet into dirt? They fight in the Shadowlands which is the base level of Kashyyyk's surface. There are no artificial grounds here. Everything is overlayed in natural terrain, which would mean dirt, grass, rock. I find it questionable that Grievous would be able to clamp his feet to standard earth. 
 

Sidious would likely send Ventress crashing back with a Force push, but wouldn't be able to overwhelm Grievous quick enough.

Why would he not send both Ventress and Grievous back with a Force Push? 
 

Grievous would be wounded by such an attack, and Durge too, but not to such an extent that they would be incapitated.

Actually, if Lightning did hit Grievous, that could be horrible for him. Electricity shorts out machinery in Star Wars. The few bolts of electricity that Obi-Wan sent into Grievous from a MagnaGuard's staff depleted the resilience of Grievous' chest plate, which is how Obi-Wan managed to pull it open. Lightning not only has that capability but also extracts the life of the victim. If Sidious' Lightning pierces Grievous' gut sack or his eyes or brain, Grievous could be severely wounded. But this is granting that Lightning hits Grievous when he can instead block it on his lightsabers.
 

Sidious would rush back to strike Grievous, but the cyborg would fight on equal footing, along with Durge.

Unlikely. The skillfulness of Sidious and Grievous might be negligible in variance, but Sidious' speed and power would strain Grievous. 
 

(You have no idea how tempted i am to mention Palpatine's penchant for getting shot in the back when distracted, i.e. how Han Solo shot Sidious in the back during Empire's End)

Eh, this is out of context. Han shot Palpatine in the back during Empire's End because Palpatine's clone body was genetically unstable because of sabotage and as a result desperately weakened. That has nothing to do with this fight, where his powers are fully in operation. 
 

AS one can see the Duel is close, and that is but one scenario. In the end i give it to my team, 6/10

Throughout this discussion, you have made this debate challenging and have convinced me that this is highly arguable, which is good. Truth be told, I could see a case being made for either side or a case being made for an even split of victories. This is a close match, and there are a number of elements to this to mull over. I would still probably favor Sidious for a 6/10 majority, but I can see why you would disagree. There is room for separate judgments here because of the closeness of the fight.
#8 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

It makes little to no difference what he wraps her in or if he wraps her in anything at all. Anakin proved he could not only lift Ventress in the air and leave her helpless but that he could uphold that telekinetic control long enough to coat Ventress in debris. Palpatine is both more powerful than Anakin and more brutal. He has no need to entangle Ventress in anything at all. He could kill her telekinetically without objects anyway. The fact is, Anakin was able to hold up Ventress, encase her in objects, and then drop her off a skyscraper. If he can assert that much telekinetic power over Ventress, I am confident in Sidious' ability to as well.
Not really relevant considering Ventress has been incapacitated by telekinetics of inferior quality to Palpatine. His history or lack thereof against Force sensitives is beside the point; the unobstructed telekinetic power he can unleash is all that matters. And Ventress has never proven she can neutralize a direct telekinetic ability of the magnitude Sidious can generate.

I can accept this.

Still not entirely sure I follow you, but if you were asking whether Sith training impresses on the student a fierceness that could very well claim their lives, then I would direct you to Plagueis' words about Palpatine surviving longer under harsh conditions, that Sith invite pain during training, that Sidious would at some point have to experience Force Lightning for himself to launch it himself.

The Muun’s shadow fell over him. Arms folded across his chest, Plagueis loomed.
“If you’re to succeed in inhabiting both realms, Sidious—the profane world and that of the Force—you need to learn how to use guile to your advantage, and to recognize when others are employing it.” Without extending a hand, Plagueis tugged him to his feet. “If you can survive a few more days without sustenance or rest, I may be inclined to teach you.”

Clawing his way across the tundra, his body rashed with lightsaber burns, Sidious looked up at Plagueis, imploringly.
“How much longer, Master?”
Plagueis deactivated his weapon’s crimson blade and scowled. “Perhaps a moment, perhaps an eternity. Stop thinking of the future, and anchor yourself in the present. A Sith apprentice is the antithesis of a Jedi youngling nurtured in the Temple, battling a floating remote with a training lightsaber. A Sith acquaints himself with pain from the start, and inflicts it, as well. A Sith goes for the throat, just as you did on your family’s starship.”
Sidious continued to gaze at him. “I meant, how much longer will it take me to learn?”
The Muun sized him up with a look. “Hard to tell. Humans are their own worst enemies. Your body isn’t meant to withstand real punishment. It is easily injured and slow to heal. Your olfactory and tactile senses are relatively acute, but your auditory and visual senses are extremely limited.”
“Have I no strengths, Master?”
Plagueis dropped to one knee in front of him. “You have the Force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future.”
Sidious swallowed and found his voice. “How long?”
Plagueis stood, reigniting the lightsaber as he did so. “Not a standard day sooner than a decade.”

Getting to his feet, Plagueis extended his long arms in front of him and loosed a storm of Force lightning that crackled over the landscape, igniting fires in the grass.
“A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer to one’s will.
“But the Force cannot be treated deferentially,” he added as a few final tendrils sparked from his fingertips. “In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself.”
Sidious watched the last of the brush fires burn out, then said, “Will I eventually be physically transformed?”
“Into some aged, pale-skinned, raspy-voiced, yellow-eyed monster, you mean. Such as the one you see before you.” Plagueis gestured to himself, then lowered himself to the ground. “Surely you are acquainted with the lore: King Ommin of Onderon, Darths Sion and Nihilus. But whether it will happen to you, I can’t say. Know this, though, Sidious, that the power of the dark side does not debilitate the practitioner as much as it debilitates those who lack it.” He grinned with evil purpose. “The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of.”

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

This is just how Sith train. From their perspective, if a student is incapable of tolerating severity, then that student was never worth training in the first place. This is there way of testing the student's resolve.

That was more or less what i was asking, thank you.

Alright, that's fair. But Mace elected to BFR Grievous rather than fight him in a straight duel. This implies, as we've discussed before, that Grievous could have won that fight.

And I disagree with that interpretation. The fact that Mace chose to BFR Grievous rather than beat him is not indicative of a lack of ability on his part to defeat him; it just means he was more concerned over protecting the Chancellor than with prolonging a duel. Grievous has never beaten anyone on Mace's level anyway. He consistently loses to Dooku, who is a perfect equal with Mace. To suggest that Grievous could beat Mace for a majority is flawed, in my opinion. Could he have won a minority on even ground and even stipulations? Possibly. A majority? No. His feats include nothing that justifies this consensus. What I said before was that I respect your opinion, even if I disagree with it, which I still do. But this perceived outcome is unlikely.

Oh i wasn't claiming that Grievous would win the majority. Simply that he could win. Which is what i said. Could win. Not necessarily that he would win. Its fair that my interpretation may be flawed, in that Mace may have wanted to protect the Chancellor more than he'd want to kill Grievous.

Also, what speed feats does Sidious have at this time? From what i can tell, this is the best speed feat you've posted for him:

To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

These objects that Sidious is dodging do not move quickly. Er, they don't move incredibly fast as a blasterbolt would. While there are many of them, i see no reason why Grievous or possibly Ventress couldn't dodge them just as well. Perhaps it would take more effort, but not unbelievable at all.

There are a few objections I would raise here. For one thing, we have no idea how fast the Kursid are as a species. Not all species have an equivalent physical functionality. For all we know, the Kursid could be superhuman by human standards or of only human-level speed. It is highly unlikely that they are slower than human's though, due to the Sith's frequent travel there. If these beings were less impressive than humans, the Sith in all likelihood would not regard their armies as a worthwhile rite. Pertaining to Ventress and Grievous, neither of them have proven that they can fight whole armies unscathed as Sidious did (he fought alongside Plagueis, but there were hundreds of enemies with the two of them disusing their offensive Force powers). Grievous has killed a company of clone troopers before, but a company is only 128 troops, and Grievous is impervious to blaster bolts. Ventress has never performed any combat achievements of this sort, and to solidify that contrast, characters of Ventress and Grievous' speed class have never beaten whole armies themselves ether. Anakin and Obi-Wan have been forced to flee from armies more than once (they have fought armies but never beaten armies). Others, like Plo Koon, have only struck down small portions of armies by attacking them from behind. Mace's victory over the army on Dantooine in Clone Wars is incongruous with his other showings. Mace has lost to an army in Clone Wars Adventures and on other occasions and needed the help of at least eight other Jedi to telekinetically push down an army of Yinchorri in Jedi Council: Acts of War. No one on Grievous or Ventress' speed or power class has ever defeated an entire army before, let alone done so without sustaining a single hit and without appropriating their projectile Force abilities. Your suggestion that Ventress or Grievous could complete a correspondent feat to Sidious' lacks evidential criteria.

I think we can agree that the Kursid are about human standards of speed. There's nothing to suggest that they are faster nor slower than that. And my point about it this, is that the weaponry they are using, axes, arrows and spears, don't move quickly. Every citation you listed about not defeating is an army is when they are using modern weaponry. The Kursid army isn't using modern weaponry that was my point. I'm not claiming Grievous or Ventress could defeat a Modern Clone Army, but that they could defeat a Kursid army that uses ancient weaponry.

Sidenote: in Jedi Trial, didn't Anakin go into a Force Rage and defeat an army? i recollect something of that nature.

Second Sidenote: What about Mace defeating that army in the Clone Wars mini?

For another thing, the fact that Sidious and Plagueis were described as "flying among them" depicts them as leaping into the masses of their enemies. In the air, they expose themselves as targets to far more Kursid than if they charged into their ranks straightforwardly on the ground (and even then, they would still have numerous opponents firing and striking at them). Lastly, this quote you gave partially answers your question. As I detailed above, this is not a feat Grievous or Ventress could match. As well, Sidious and Plagueis sprinted across a plain to confront the Kursid. If they ran together, that seems to imply that Sidious moved in pace with Plagueis, a showing that certainly outdoes both Grievous and Ventress. To give more information that conveys Sidious' moving as fast as Plagueis, note also their other activities together. Sidious and Plagueis traveled all around the world of Buoyant to "cull the weak" creatures from the strong by killing them and leaving the others. This proliferated a dark side aura that the two of them caused to penetrate the planet. Sidious and Plagueis ran and traversed the terrain on foot in many instances, and Sidious contended Plagueis' speed.

So Sidious can match or at least rival Plagueis speed? if true, then my team probably can't win the majority.

I agree completely that Plagueis is faster than Grievous/Ventress.

Another one to analyze is their lightsaber training. Sidious was taught lightsaber dueling from Plagueis, and the two would have to have fought one another to practice (all masters and their apprentices duel one another, both Jedi and Sith). As I said before, Sith training is unforgiving. This is not to say that Plagueis would necessarily unhinge his full technique on Sidious in their first lessons (though no doubt, Plagueis did humiliate him in their early years together to foment Sidious' desire to kill Plagueis, a desire Plagueis stated in no uncertain terms he wanted Sidious to pursue), but as Sidious' procession into Sith arts matured over a decade and his physical power manifested itself to be around Plagueis' level, there would be no need to show mercy anymore. Sidious would have to be able to handle it, or else Plagueis would consider him unworthy of teaching. Am I saying that Sidious could necessarily beat Plagueis in a duel by 52BSW4? No (we have no idea one way or another), but his combat speed competing with that of Plagueis' is my underlying premise. If he can fight Plagueis, that shows speed over and above Grievous or Ventress, and yes, I think I can say with certainty that Plagueis and Sidious had dueled one another before.

My only statement here, is that i wouldn't be surprised if Plagueis would be holding back to some degree in order to manipulate Sidious into believing he is stronger. Now i have no source or indication of that, but it is certainly something Sith have done before.

On a sidenote, if you are of the persuasion that these attacks that Sidious and Plagueis dodged during that battle against the Kursid are not as fast as blaster bolts, then why is that the best speed feat for Sidious? From your perspective, why is this one not the best since he deflects blaster fire from a miniature army?

On Hypori they were the prey, standing back-to-back in their black zeyd-cloth hooded robes at the center of concentric rings of droids, retrofitted by Baktoid Armor to function as combat automata. Two hundred programmed assailants—bipedal, treaded, some levitated by antigrav generators—armed with a variety of weapons, ranging from hand blasters to short-barreled burst-rifles. Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal. Made for delicate, long-fingered hands—as much a work of art as a weapon—the lightsaber thrummed as he waved the blade from side to side in front of him.
"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."
Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.
"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.
Rugged, uninhabited Hypori belonged to the Techno Union, whose Skakoan foreman, Wat Tambor, owed his seat in the Republic Senate to Damask Holdings. In exchange, the bionic humanoid had made Hypori available as a training ground for members of the Echani Sun Guard and provided the necessary battle droids. Calling in another favor, Hego Damask had requested a private session in the fabricated cityscape, so that Plagueis and his apprentice could be free to employ lightsabers—though only for the purpose of deflecting bolts rather than dismemberment or penetration.
When it came Sidious's turn to demonstrate his skill, Plagueis spoke continuously from behind him, adding distraction to the distinct possibility of inadvertent disintegration.
"A being trained in the killing arts doesn't wait for you to acquire him as a target, or establish him or herself as an opponent, as if in some martial arts contest. Your reactions must be instantaneous and nothing less than lethal, for you are a Sith Lord, and will be marked for death."
The droids continued to converge, ring after ring of them, until the floor was piled high with smoking husks. Plagueis issued a voice command that brought the onslaught to an abrupt end and deactivated his lightsaber. The pinging of cooling weapons, the hiss of escaping gas, the unsteady whir of failing servomotors punctuated the sudden silence. Alloy limbs spasmed and photoreceptors winked out, surrending their eerie glow. The recycled air was rotten with the smell of fried circuitry.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

My mistake. When i read this quote i didn't realize that the droids were surrounding Sidious. I thought they were simply in front of him. This is indeed a much better Speed Feat than the Kursid one.

Note also the description here: "Orbiting Sidious..." Plagueis' blade circled Sidious as he deflected blaster bolts, and of course, he would be forced to in order to strike away blaster bolts from droids that surrounded them on all sides. However, Plagueis' blade is not all that would need to. Sidious was standing while this was happening, and his lightsaber was drawn. Plagues possesses a good reach, but I doubt he could deflect fire from droids in every direction yet still stand stationary at Sidious' back. That would necessitate that he swing his blade around Sidious without moving himself. But even if Plagueis did stand perfectly still, Sidious would not be able to do that. Plagueis is taller than Sidious and was standing behind him. Sidious would have to run circles around Plagueis in order to catch all the blaster bolts. The statement that Plagueis "spoke from behind him" does not detract from this interpretation either since Sidious would constantly be facing the droids no matter which side of Plagueis he ran to. Now, what does this have to do with anything? It shows Palpatine outrunning blaster bolts. Plagueis and Sidious were standing in the middle of an army of two hundred droids that fired in rings from all directions. For Sidious to deflect the fire, he would have to move around Plagueis; otherwise, Plagueis would be shot in the back, just as Sidious would be shot if Plagueis had not orbited him (they may have simply deflected the blaster bolt themselves, but they would fail the test if the other had to deflect fire for them). For Sidious to adequately send away the flood of fire, he would have to run around Plagueis fast enough to repel the bolts. Outrunning blaster bolts is a better running speed feat than anything Ventress or Grievous have done, and it also adds to show Sidious' speed contesting with that of Plagueis'. Plagueis ran fast enough that 11-4D, who could dodge blaster bolts, was barely able to see him move. Outrunning blaster bolts is a feat both could accomplish.

I can agree with this.

So, no, Sidious recognizing his own limitations is not unheard of, particularly at this time, and none of this was said to Plagueis either.

Alright, i can accept that as well.

My question of the quote then, is this: What suggests that he wouldn't get tired after destroying the building? Further, we have no indication of how much concentration it would take to destroy the building.

The fact that it said he could do so easily.

Hmm, i'm still not entirely convinced he could destroy a builiding without losing at least some strength.

I highly doubt that Sidious could replicate the feat while dodging at least six blades and a bounty hunter.

As for doing so under attack from others, he has no need to. He can scatter them telekinetically and materialize that power at his leisure on any of them once he has breathing room.

That is a good point.

At this point, it seems you agree he could emit that prodigious a power level but question the circumstances under which he could. I have to ask though: If you trust that he could crush a building based on that quote, why not trust the entirety of the quote? In his musings under the stimulation of the dark side, he feels that he could accomplish it without much difficulty. If the part about his ability to demolish the building is true, why not the part about the effort required to do so?

Partially because Palpatine has a penchant for exaggerating his power, partially because i'm unconvinced based on your arguments that he would be able to do so without tiring on some extent. So far what you've shown is that Palpatine is willing to concede that Plagueis is more powerful than the apprentice. but isn't exaggerating his abilities internally something he would do? I believe it is.

Which feat exactly?

Sorry; I should have clarified. I was referring to when Sidious collapsed a ceiling. That was done with far more ease than Ventress' feat of collapsing a ceiling was.

To me Ventress didn't appear to be struggling to much. But it's been a while since i've seen the video.

While being fired at form dozens of assailants is quite different than being upclose in a lightsaber duel. Sidious combat speed feat that you've shown is him dodgin arrows and axe strikes, and spears. These objects move far, far, far slower than Grievous or Ventress.

Those objects would not be dodged by Grievous or Ventress. As I said, no one on your team has shown the ability to fight whole armies without receiving a hit as Sidious did, and his combat speed feats outweigh your team's collectively.

I'm sure if they were doding blasterbolts they would be hit. But at this point the argument matters little. You've shown that Sidious can move at similar speeds to Plagueis.

For the record, you asked for speed feats later on in your post as well, but I chose not to respond to them because I elaborated above.

That's perfectly fine.

My argument against that (weak as it is) is that Ventress was self trained at that time, and hadn't likely faced a Duelist of Dooku's caliber.

Dooku has TK'd Ventress later on as well. It was not a one-time event. And, no, Ventress was not self-trained. She was trained by a former Jedi on the battlefields on Rattatak.

Doink! I forgot about that. (her not being self-trained). I suppose i'll have to accept this.... haha

And I still disagree with you on that. Nothing shows him as tiring quickly, whether by his dispensation of TK or Lightning.

Fair enough. He never is really shown tiring is he? hmm.

Yes! you conceded something! :) from what i remember, and (this could be wrong) there weren't many boulders nor branches (most of those were higher up on the trees) But i concede that Palpatine could would Ventress with those.

I can't recall if there were any shown in KOTOR or Tyrant's Test either, but fair enough.

I think they were a few, but mostly they were quite huge.

My thinking, is that Sidious isn't in his prime, and could easily overestimate his strength in the Force. Plus, if he's constantly using TK/Lightning, then he'd eventually grow tired from that.

Again, I still have yet to see anything that suggests this. When Sidious fought Kursid, deflected fire from droids, killed Teem, killed Maladians, hunted on Bouyant etc., none of this exhausted him, and in some of these instances, he expended large amounts of Force abilities. When he assassinated Teem and his associates, he jumped from a thirteen story height, ran in a blur, deflected fire from a dozen guards, telekinetically shattered a doorway, telekinetically lifted two guards, leapt with enough force to break through doors, telekinetically pulled down a ceiling, and controlled fire with the Force. None of that taxed him heavily. He fought Kursid for hours never tired. Fighting Maladians and droids never tired him. Hunting creatures all over the surface of Bouyant never tired him. I am at a loss still for why this would tire him so much. If Sidious does tire, it would certainly not hinder his combative formidability much. Would he be tired after the fight? Possibly. But would fatigue arrest his powers from under him and leave him available to attack? Doubtful. That has never happened to him before; I have no reason to believe it would here.

Alright. I concede, if he does tire, it won't be enough to drastically impact the duel

Then my question is: can Lightning kill him? (normal lightning, not Force Lightning)

Possibly, but even if not, it can incapacitate Durge.

Which... is in the rules. Thank you.

True that pictures aren't canon, but Grievous has been shown to wield a lightsaber with his foot before, and in the clone wars mini where he does so, there are three lightsabers on his belt, in addition to the two he had in his hands (the one he used with his foot was Ki-Adi Mundi's)

The OP says "standard equipment." Grievous' standard equipment is four lightsabers, not five. And even then, Grievous sometimes only brandishes two blades. He can and often does utilize four, but in some instances, Grievous duels with only two. It just depends on the situation. In this scenario, it might be safer to just assume he will employ four though.

Alright. I agree it's safer to assume he'll use all four.

We seem to be reaching agreements on multiple subjects, which is good. It will help us reach a final unanimity.

Agreed! We're argeeing much more this time around.

Sidenote: couldn't Grievous lock his feet into the ground like he does in space, or when he wants to hang from a ceiling?

How would he lock his feet into dirt? They fight in the Shadowlands which is the base level of Kashyyyk's surface. There are no artificial grounds here. Everything is overlayed in natural terrain, which would mean dirt, grass, rock. I find it questionable that Grievous would be able to clamp his feet to standard earth.

True. He'd have to use trees or boulders, which (boulders at least) we've agreed aren't around much.

Sidious would likely send Ventress crashing back with a Force push, but wouldn't be able to overwhelm Grievous quick enough.

Why would he not send both Ventress and Grievous back with a Force Push?

Meh, i didn't think it'd be necessary. He certainly could.

Grievous would be wounded by such an attack, and Durge too, but not to such an extent that they would be incapitated.

Actually, if Lightning did hit Grievous, that could be horrible for him. Electricity shorts out machinery in Star Wars. The few bolts of electricity that Obi-Wan sent into Grievous from a MagnaGuard's staff depleted the resilience of Grievous' chest plate, which is how Obi-Wan managed to pull it open. Lightning not only has that capability but also extracts the life of the victim. If Sidious' Lightning pierces Grievous' gut sack or his eyes or brain, Grievous could be severely wounded. But this is granting that Lightning hits Grievous when he can instead block it on his lightsabers.

Well, that shows my lack of exponential knowledge on him. Glad you defended the point for me, LOL.

Sidious would rush back to strike Grievous, but the cyborg would fight on equal footing, along with Durge.

Unlikely. The skillfulness of Sidious and Grievous might be negligible in variance, but Sidious' speed and power would strain Grievous.

I don't particularly think it'd strain Grievous too much. He's a cyborg after all, if he can block Sidious the majority of the time then he should be able to block him indefinitely. Sidious would have to be striking incredibly fast. Which, (i think we agreed) he's only faster than Grievous by a small amount..

(You have no idea how tempted i am to mention Palpatine's penchant for getting shot in the back when distracted, i.e. how Han Solo shot Sidious in the back during Empire's End)

Eh, this is out of context. Han shot Palpatine in the back during Empire's End because Palpatine's clone body was genetically unstable because of sabotage and as a result desperately weakened. That has nothing to do with this fight, where his powers are fully in operation.

It was meant more as a joke than anything else.

AS one can see the Duel is close, and that is but one scenario. In the end i give it to my team, 6/10

Throughout this discussion, you have made this debate challenging and have convinced me that this is highly arguable, which is good. Truth be told, I could see a case being made for either side or a case being made for an even split of victories. This is a close match, and there are a number of elements to this to mull over. I would still probably favor Sidious for a 6/10 majority, but I can see why you would disagree. There is room for separate judgments here because of the closeness of the fight.

Glad i've challenged you haha. After conceding that Sidious is faster, i think it's highly probably that this would be a even split, or perhaps a Sidious majority.

Closing comments?

#9 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JamesKM716 said: 

That was more or less what i was asking, thank you.

Sure thing. 
 

Oh i wasn't claiming that Grievous would win the majority. Simply that he could win. Which is what i said. Could win. Not necessarily that he would win. Its fair that my interpretation may be flawed, in that Mace may have wanted to protect the Chancellor more than he'd want to kill Grievous.

Ah, I see. I misunderstood you. There is a place for an argument of that sort. 
 

And my point about it this, is that the weaponry they are using, axes, arrows and spears, don't move quickly. Every citation you listed about not defeating is an army is when they are using modern weaponry. The Kursid army isn't using modern weaponry that was my point. 

Actually, Anakin and Obi-Wan were chased off by a rather primitive army in Clone Wars Adventures.

I'm not claiming Grievous or Ventress could defeat a Modern Clone Army, but that they could defeat a Kursid army that uses ancient weaponry.

Hmm, there is a wide margin for difference of perspective on that. It would be best to be as specific as possible. To be honest, I probably agree with you that Grievous could defeat a Kursid army. He has four lightsabers and is invulnerable to the weapons they sport. Ventress, I disagree; her feats don't merit that suggestion. With that said, this again ignores the circumstances of Sidious' feat. He never utilized any offensive Force powers, only physically-enhancing ones and presumably his Force senses. He also only brandished a force pike rather than his lightsaber. And through it all, he was never hit once. I really have no confidence that either Grievous or Ventress are that fast. Could Grievous beat an army of Kursid warriors? Yes, I think so considering the Kursid would be incapable of even hurting him and considering he has four lightsabers. Could he beat a Kursid army without ever being tagged by them? I'm reluctant to believe that. No one on his speed level, as far as I remember, has executed a feat like that.
 

Sidenote: in Jedi Trial, didn't Anakin go into a Force Rage and defeat an army? i recollect something of that nature.

Not to my knowledge, but if you have information I don't, I could be wrong. With that said, Anakin is about as fast as Grievous is, and he occasionally operates feats beyond his prevailing level by extracting an unusual amount of power from his overall Force potential. It would be somewhat similar to his duel with Dooku in RotS: it is highly arguable whether that showing is indicative of his regular abilities or the exception to the rule.
 

Second Sidenote: What about Mace defeating that army in the Clone Wars mini?

I covered that already. The showing is inconsistent with Mace's showings as a whole. 
@Silver2467 said:

Mace's victory over the army on Dantooine in Clone Wars is incongruous with his other showings. Mace has lost to an army in Clone Wars Adventures and on other occasions and needed the help of at least eight other Jedi to telekinetically push down an army of Yinchorri in Jedi Council: Acts of War.


Plus, if you really pay attention during the Battle of Dantooine in CW, you'll notice that very few of the droids actually shoot at Mace. Most of them either stand still and do nothing or simply walk into him to be smashed apart. It extended beyond simple droid incompetence; most of those droids never actually did anything.
 

So Sidious can match or at least rival Plagueis speed? if true, then my team probably can't win the majority.

I agree completely that Plagueis is faster than Grievous/Ventress.

I think he is around Plagueis' speed, yes. Plagueis is faster than your team but not enough to overpower them by pure speed. As you pointed out, Sidious will have to circumvent a total of six blades striking at him, not to mention Durge's weapons. Possessing speed that approximates Plagueis' would help him defend against that, not necessarily beat back your team all at once. It is an advantage but more of a neutralizing one when facing all three. Now, once one or two of them are down, then the speed difference could become a more reliable supplement to factors that would alter the outcome. 
 

My only statement here, is that i wouldn't be surprised if Plagueis would be holding back to some degree in order to manipulate Sidious into believing he is stronger. Now i have no source or indication of that, but it is certainly something Sith have done before.

Hmm, possibly, but I have no reason to believe that Plagueis would want Sidious to believe himself stronger. Plagueis' method of training Sidious was analogous to the methods of previous Banite Sith Lords; he wanted Sidious to desire to kill Plagueis for the recognition that Plagueis is more powerful. Following his early years of training, Plagueis renounced the Banite system so they could rule together as equals.
Sidious steadied himself on the scree slope, the jagged stones beneath his bloody palms, elbows and knees quivering, as if yearning to immerse themselves in the frigid waters of the crystalline blue lake at the base of the near sheer incline. A few meters above sat Plagueis, cross-legged atop a flat-topped outcropping, his back turned to Sidious and his gaze seemingly fixed on the blinding snowfields that blanketed the mountain’s summit.
“If you don’t already want to murder me, you will before I’m through with you,” he was saying. “The urge to kill one’s superior is intrinsic to the nature of our enterprise. My unassailable strength gives rise to your envy; my wisdom fuels your desire; my achievements incite your craving. Thus has it been for one thousand years, and so it must endure until I’ve guided you to parity. Then, Sidious, we must do our best to sabotage the dynamic Darth Bane set in motion, because we will need each other if we’re to realize our ultimate goals. In the end there can be no secrets between us; no jealousy or mistrust. From us the future of the Sith will fountain, and the diverse beings of the galaxy will be better for it. Until then, however, you must strive; you must demonstrate your worthiness, not merely to me but to the dark side. You must take the hatred you feel for me and transform it into power—the power to overcome, to forbid anything from standing in your path, to surmount whatever obstacle the dark side designs to test you.”
--Taken from Darth Plagueis

I see no reason why, after having said that, that Plagueis would want Palpatine to overestimate his own abilities, especially since he later admonished Sidious for nurturing too much overconfidence in Maul:

Just arrived on the Hunters’ Moon, Sidious studied Plagueis as the Sith Lord and his droid, 11-4D, viewed a holorecording of a black-robed Zabrak assassin making short work of combat automata in his home on Coruscant, some hovering, some advancing on two legs, others on treads, and all firing blasters.
Twenty years had added a slight stoop to the Muun’s posture and veins that stood out under his thinning white skin. He wore a dark green utility suit that hugged his delicate frame, a green cloak that fell from his bony shoulders to the fort’s stone floor, and a headpiece that hewed to his large cranium. A triangular breath mask covered his ruined, prognathus lower jaw, his mouth, part of his long neck, and what remained of the craggy nose he’d had before the surprise attack in the Fobosi. A device of his own invention, the alloy mask featured two vertical slits and a pair of thin, stiff conduits that linked it to a transpirator affixed to his upper chest, beneath an armored torso harness. He had learned to ingest and imbibe through feeding tubes, and through his nose.
Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side.
Determined never again to be caught off guard, he had trained himself to go without sleep, and had devoted two standard decades to day-and-night experimentation with midi-chlorian manipulation and attempts to wrest a few last secrets from the Force, so that he—and presumably his human apprentice—might live forever. His inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death.
"You have made him fearsome," Plagueis remarked without turning from the recording, as the athletic Zabrak cleaved a Colicoid Eradicator droid down the middle and whirled to cut two others in half. The yellow-eyed humanoid's hairless head bore a crown of small horns and geometrical patterns of black and red markings.
"Fearless, as well," Sidious said.
"Still, they are only droids."
"He's even more formidable against living beings."
Plagueis looked over his shoulder, his eyes narrowed in question. "You've fought him in a serious way?" Reconstructed vocal chords and trachea imparted a metallic quality to his voice, as if he were speaking through an enunciator.
"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand."
Plagueis turned fully to face him. "Rather than punish him for disobedience, you praised his resolve."
"He was already humbled. I chose to leave his honor intact. I proclaimed him my myrmidon; the embodiment of the violent half of our partnership."
"Partnership?" Plagueis repeated harshly.
"His and mine; not ours."
"Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is."
"Did you not do the same for me?"
Plagueis's eyes reflected disappointment. "Never, Sidious. I have always been truthful with you."
Sidious bowed his head in acknowledgement. "I am not the teacher you are."

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Hmm, i'm still not entirely convinced he could destroy a builiding without losing at least some strength.

Partially because Palpatine has a penchant for exaggerating his power, partially because i'm unconvinced based on your arguments that he would be able to do so without tiring on some extent. So far what you've shown is that Palpatine is willing to concede that Plagueis is more powerful than the apprentice. but isn't exaggerating his abilities internally something he would do? I believe it is.

Well, I don't believe it would have absolutely no toll on Sidious at all. It's not as if Palpatine has an unlimited supply of power in his Force reserves. What I mean is that the procession of that destruction would probably not take too much time or concentration. Would it spend some of his reserves? Yes. Enough to weaken his chances in the fight? Probably not. I do think that after the fight, assuming he is the victor, Sidious would be tired and possibly injured, but I still am skeptical over the idea that lassitude would usher in Sidious' defeat. I never intended to imply that Palpatine could just wreak Force attacks indefinitely, but he does not need to be able to. This fight, in my opinion, shouldn't be long enough to wear him out from that (he would more than likely wear out from his enemies' attacks more than his own).
 

To me Ventress didn't appear to be struggling to much. But it's been a while since i've seen the video.

The time it took her to crumble it was longer than the time it took Sidious to pull down ceilings. 
Now, we could argue about the difference in the substances they were rending, but we could also argue the amount of area those substances covered. I would rather not though; so I will just let that point go. 
 

Fair enough. He never is really shown tiring is he? hmm.

There are very few points in his entire career where he has exhibited fatigue (I can only think of a few, one of them before he reached his prime, one of them being when his clones were sabotaged, and one being when he was tired but not to a meaningful extent). Not that he can't tire, but his stamina through the Force is abundant. Although as I pointed out, if he wins, I think he would be tired after the fight.
 

I don't particularly think it'd strain Grievous too much. He's a cyborg after all, if he can block Sidious the majority of the time then he should be able to block him indefinitely. Sidious would have to be striking incredibly fast. Which, (i think we agreed) he's only faster than Grievous by a small amount..

Maybe I should have articulated that differently. When I said "strain Grievous," I did not "tire Grievous," since I, at this point, am unsure if Grievous can tire. What I meant was bear down on Grievous and force him to labor all of his resources under pressure. 
 

Closing comments?

Just one.  I feel I should address this, since I have yet to give a comprehensive reply on this topic. We brought up Grievous wielding blades with his feet. The image in the OP is not an example of that. In the picture in the OP, Grievous' feet are not even visible. There is a blue blade extending near his knee but not his feet, and the reason that blade is there is because there is a Jedi on the foreground gripping a blue lightsaber. However, that image was cropped to remove some of the outlier sections to give more centrality to Grievous. This is the full image, and I added a highlight around the Jedi's hand with the lightsaber:
And as I said before, pictures are not canon.  Regarding Grievous' duel with Ki-Adi where other lightsabers are shown, he was actually shown with four lightsabers attached to his hip, but there are a few issues to this. Clone Wars was Grievous' debut in SW media. There were intricacies to his character that had not been established yet. I have never, to my recollection, seen Grievous carry more than four lightsabers on him aside from that show. And even then, it is possible that those lightsabers were picked up from the corpses of dead Jedi on the fields of Hypori. One could have belonged to Sha'a Gi and another Jedi. This is speculative, but considering that Grievous did, IIRC, collect a few lightsabers on Hypori, it could be correct. 
 
But on the subject at hand, I think we agree that a case could be made for either side. This is a close match. I think Sidious would win a very slight majority, but I can see other views as well. There are some factors we neglected to analyze though. For the most part, we never really talked much about Durge. If there are arguments pertaining to him you want to bring up, you can. He is a difficult enemy to drop.
#10 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

This is awesome so far :)

#11 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Ah, I see. I misunderstood you. There is a place for an argument of that sort.

Agreed. Obviously making an entire argument off of that would be bad, but well yeah.

And my point about it this, is that the weaponry they are using, axes, arrows and spears, don't move quickly. Every citation you listed about not defeating is an army is when they are using modern weaponry. The Kursid army isn't using modern weaponry that was my point.

Actually, Anakin and Obi-Wan were chased off by a rather primitive army in Clone Wars Adventures.

Oh, was Clone Wars Adventures the mini? i think i remember those.

I'm not claiming Grievous or Ventress could defeat a Modern Clone Army, but that they could defeat a Kursid army that uses ancient weaponry.

Hmm, there is a wide margin for difference of perspective on that. It would be best to be as specific as possible. To be honest, I probably agree with you that Grievous could defeat a Kursid army. He has four lightsabers and is invulnerable to the weapons they sport. Ventress, I disagree; her feats don't merit that suggestion. With that said, this again ignores the circumstances of Sidious' feat. He never utilized any offensive Force powers, only physically-enhancing ones and presumably his Force senses. He also only brandished a force pike rather than his lightsaber. And through it all, he was never hit once. I really have no confidence that either Grievous or Ventress are that fast. Could Grievous beat an army of Kursid warriors? Yes, I think so considering the Kursid would be incapable of even hurting him and considering he has four lightsabers. Could he beat a Kursid army without ever being tagged by them? I'm reluctant to believe that. No one on his speed level, as far as I remember, has executed a feat like that.

Now i understand why that's such a great feat. I never got it before. But now that makes a good bit more sense. Palpatine wasn't tagged by them. Nice.

Sidenote: in Jedi Trial, didn't Anakin go into a Force Rage and defeat an army? i recollect something of that nature.

Not to my knowledge, but if you have information I don't, I could be wrong. With that said, Anakin is about as fast as Grievous is, and he occasionally operates feats beyond his prevailing level by extracting an unusual amount of power from his overall Force potential. It would be somewhat similar to his duel with Dooku in RotS: it is highly arguable whether that showing is indicative of his regular abilities or the exception to the rule.

I think i have that book, so i'll go and look it up later if/when i have more time.

Second Sidenote: What about Mace defeating that army in the Clone Wars mini?

I covered that already. The showing is inconsistent with Mace's showings as a whole.

Mace's victory over the army on Dantooine in Clone Wars is incongruous with his other showings. Mace has lost to an army in Clone Wars Adventures and on other occasions and needed the help of at least eight other Jedi to telekinetically push down an army of Yinchorri in Jedi Council: Acts of War.


Plus, if you really pay attention during the Battle of Dantooine in CW, you'll notice that very few of the droids actually shoot at Mace. Most of them either stand still and do nothing or simply walk into him to be smashed apart. It extended beyond simple droid incompetence; most of those droids never actually did anything.

Oh, doy. Thank you.

So Sidious can match or at least rival Plagueis speed? if true, then my team probably can't win the majority.

I agree completely that Plagueis is faster than Grievous/Ventress.

I think he is around Plagueis' speed, yes. Plagueis is faster than your team but not enough to overpower them by pure speed. As you pointed out, Sidious will have to circumvent a total of six blades striking at him, not to mention Durge's weapons. Possessing speed that approximates Plagueis' would help him defend against that, not necessarily beat back your team all at once. It is an advantage but more of a neutralizing one when facing all three. Now, once one or two of them are down, then the speed difference could become a more reliable supplement to factors that would alter the outcome.

I agree, it'd be particularly helpful when he faces Ventress one on one. (my thinking if that if he can kill her he'll have a rather easy time killing Durge, and then he should be able to outduel Grievous eventually.

My only statement here, is that i wouldn't be surprised if Plagueis would be holding back to some degree in order to manipulate Sidious into believing he is stronger. Now i have no source or indication of that, but it is certainly something Sith have done before.

Hmm, possibly, but I have no reason to believe that Plagueis would want Sidious to believe himself stronger. Plagueis' method of training Sidious was analogous to the methods of previous Banite Sith Lords; he wanted Sidious to desire to kill Plagueis for the recognition that Plagueis is more powerful. Following his early years of training, Plagueis renounced the Banite system so they could rule together as equals.

I can agree with that, especially after those quotes.

Well, I don't believe it would have absolutely no toll on Sidious at all. It's not as if Palpatine has an unlimited supply of power in his Force reserves. What I mean is that the procession of that destruction would probably not take too much time or concentration. Would it spend some of his reserves? Yes. Enough to weaken his chances in the fight? Probably not. I do think that after the fight, assuming he is the victor, Sidious would be tired and possibly injured, but I still am skeptical over the idea that lassitude would usher in Sidious' defeat. I never intended to imply that Palpatine could just wreak Force attacks indefinitely, but he does not need to be able to. This fight, in my opinion, shouldn't be long enough to wear him out from that (he would more than likely wear out from his enemies' attacks more than his own).

Ah i see your point. It's not like his endurance is weak.

Fair enough. He never is really shown tiring is he? hmm.

There are very few points in his entire career where he has exhibited fatigue (I can only think of a few, one of them before he reached his prime, one of them being when his clones were sabotaged, and one being when he was tired but not to a meaningful extent). Not that he can't tire, but his stamina through the Force is abundant. Although as I pointed out, if he wins, I think he would be tired after the fight.

To be fair, aren't we discussing Palpatine before he reached his prime?

Maybe I should have articulated that differently. When I said "strain Grievous," I did not "tire Grievous," since I, at this point, am unsure if Grievous can tire. What I meant was bear down on Grievous and force him to labor all of his resources under pressure.

Oh i gotcha.

Just one. I feel I should address this, since I have yet to give a comprehensive reply on this topic. We brought up Grievous wielding blades with his feet. The image in the OP is not an example of that. In the picture in the OP, Grievous' feet are not even visible. There is a blue blade extending near his knee but not his feet, and the reason that blade is there is because there is a Jedi on the foreground gripping a blue lightsaber. However, that image was cropped to remove some of the outlier sections to give more centrality to Grievous. This is the full image, and I added a highlight around the Jedi's hand with the lightsaber:
And as I said before, pictures are not canon. Regarding Grievous' duel with Ki-Adi where other lightsabers are shown, he was actually shown with four lightsabers attached to his hip, but there are a few issues to this. Clone Wars was Grievous' debut in SW media. There were intricacies to his character that had not been established yet. I have never, to my recollection, seen Grievous carry more than four lightsabers on him aside from that show. And even then, it is possible that those lightsabers were picked up from the corpses of dead Jedi on the fields of Hypori. One could have belonged to Sha'a Gi and another Jedi. This is speculative, but considering that Grievous did, IIRC, collect a few lightsabers on Hypori, it could be correct.

Ah! Well that makes far more sense. Thank you. I hope you can see how i was confused. I mistook the knee for the foot and thought the lightsaber was emitting from it.

But on the subject at hand, I think we agree that a case could be made for either side. This is a close match. I think Sidious would win a very slight majority, but I can see other views as well. There are some factors we neglected to analyze though. For the most part, we never really talked much about Durge. If there are arguments pertaining to him you want to bring up, you can. He is a difficult enemy to drop.

Honestly on Durge, i kinda feel like he's a non-factor. I mean, He can't do much of anything to hurt Sidious. Sidious would notice it via Force Sense. Conversely though, Sidious can electrocute Durge into unconsciousness, or possibly death. I mean, there's a few things Durge could possibly do, but i'm not sure they'd affect Sidious too much.

My closing comment would be this: It seems to me that if Sidious can manage to seperate Ventress and Grievous, then he'll be able to kill one. And i think once he's accomplished that it would be quite difficult for Grievous, or Durge, or Ventress to make a comeback from that.

This was a great debate and i'd love to do it again sometime.

#12 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb: Thanks

#13 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JamesKM716 said: 

Oh, was Clone Wars Adventures the mini? i think i remember those.

Yes, it was a graphic novel series, ten issues long. 
 

I think i have that book, so i'll go and look it up later if/when i have more time.

All right. 
 

I agree, it'd be particularly helpful when he faces Ventress one on one. (my thinking if that if he can kill her he'll have a rather easy time killing Durge, and then he should be able to outduel Grievous eventually.

It would help him quite a bit when he faces Grievous one on one too. Ventress is only slightly slower than Grievous, though of course, she wields fewer blades. 
 

To be fair, aren't we discussing Palpatine before he reached his prime?

Yes, but what I was referencing specifically was when Sidious underwent training under Plageuis for weeks without sleep. He was exhausted while undergoing that much physical striving, but that was in the genesis of his training in the ranks of the Sith, the first few months in fact. 
 

Honestly on Durge, i kinda feel like he's a non-factor. I mean, He can't do much of anything to hurt Sidious. Sidious would notice it via Force Sense. Conversely though, Sidious can electrocute Durge into unconsciousness, or possibly death. I mean, there's a few things Durge could possibly do, but i'm not sure they'd affect Sidious too much.

I disagree that Durge is a non-factor. He boasts enough lethal equipment that Sidious would be forced to evade his attacks, and his flight, reach, and brute physical force would make him annoying to deal with. I will say this about Durge's equipment: Durge enjoys in his armament explosives and flamethrowers. Neither of those would ever hit Sidious because of his speed, in my opinion, and it is possible that Durge would be disinclined to exploit them as much as he could so as not to harm his own team. But should he sweep the area with either of those, he could set the underbrush on fire. If he does, that would be no detriment to him. Durge has plunged his hands into lava before. Grievous also should be fine. However, if Ventress is still active in the fight, that could be problematic for her. She could probably repulse the flames with the Force, but Sidious can outright control the flames. Unlike your team, who would have to simply tolerate fire, Sidious could use the fire as a weapon.

Now Sidious gave full vent to his ire. Crashing through the doors, he landed in the center of a table covered with plates of grains and grassy plans and surrounded by a herd of grazing Gran, whose boisterous laughs froze in their throats. From the head of the table, Pax Teem gawked at him as if he might be a creature escaped from his most horrifying nightmare. And yet he wouldn't be the first to taste Plagueis's blade but the last; once he had been forced to watch the rest of his party butchered, from hooves to eyestalks; the painted ceiling brought down by Sidious's Force pull; the flames of a gentle gas blaze in the room's fireplace incited to a blistering inferno that Sidious tugged behind him as he soared from the table to the floor and closed on his final victim.
In desperate flight from the Sith and the spreading flames, Pax Teem had backed himself to a tall window framed by floor-to-ceiling curtains. Entreaties of whatever sort tried to thrust themselves through his stricken voice box and past his square teeth, but none succeeded.
Deactivating the lightsaber, Sidious beckoned the flames with his fingers, encouraging them to leap from the table to the curtains. A bleating scream finally emerged from Teem's narrow muzzle of a mouth as the blazing fabric collapsed around him, and Sidious watched him roast to death.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

The odds of this happening for any kind of majority are severely dubious, but this is just a thought. 
 

My closing comment would be this: It seems to me that if Sidious can manage to seperate Ventress and Grievous, then he'll be able to kill one. And i think once he's accomplished that it would be quite difficult for Grievous, or Durge, or Ventress to make a comeback from that.

This was a great debate and i'd love to do it again sometime.

Same here.
#14 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Honestly on Durge, i kinda feel like he's a non-factor. I mean, He can't do much of anything to hurt Sidious. Sidious would notice it via Force Sense. Conversely though, Sidious can electrocute Durge into unconsciousness, or possibly death. I mean, there's a few things Durge could possibly do, but i'm not sure they'd affect Sidious too much.

I disagree that Durge is a non-factor. He boasts enough lethal equipment that Sidious would be forced to evade his attacks, and his flight, reach, and brute physical force would make him annoying to deal with. I will say this about Durge's equipment: Durge enjoys in his armament explosives and flamethrowers. Neither of those would ever hit Sidious because of his speed, in my opinion, and it is possible that Durge would be disinclined to exploit them as much as he could so as not to harm his own team. But should he sweep the area with either of those, he could set the underbrush on fire. If he does, that would be no detriment to him. Durge has plunged his hands into lava before. Grievous also should be fine. However, if Ventress is still active in the fight, that could be problematic for her. She could probably repulse the flames with the Force, but Sidious can outright control the flames. Unlike your team, who would have to simply tolerate fire, Sidious could use the fire as a weapon.

The odds of this happening for any kind of majority are severely dubious, but this is just a thought.

Lol, so Durge isn't a non factor because he could potentially help Sidious? hahaha, But my point remains, nothing he can do, will particularly harm Sidious. While Sidious can harm Durge, he might not be able to kill him.

My closing comment would be this: It seems to me that if Sidious can manage to seperate Ventress and Grievous, then he'll be able to kill one. And i think once he's accomplished that it would be quite difficult for Grievous, or Durge, or Ventress to make a comeback from that.

This was a great debate and i'd love to do it again sometime.

Same here.

Let's talk about this later, like thursday, when my classes are done.

#15 Edited by ShootingNova (15666 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716: @Silver2467: Incredible debate. Both of you have made a commendable effort.

#16 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for the comments everyone. 
 
@JamesKM716 said: 

Lol, so Durge isn't a non factor because he could potentially help Sidious? hahaha, But my point remains, nothing he can do, will particularly harm Sidious. While Sidious can harm Durge, he might not be able to kill him.

LOL. Well, not exactly. I was just making a tangential point. 
 

Let's talk about this later, like thursday, when my classes are done.

Sure.
#17 Edited by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

LOL. Well, not exactly. I was just making a tangential point.

True. I could see him rushing in with explosives in a suicide bomber style. I think that'd be somewhat effective.

Sure.

Cool