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#1 Posted by KingOfAsh (3611 posts) - - Show Bio

Who would win in a fight? First fight in Hell (or where ever it is Lucifer hangs out now), second in Shuma-Goraths realm, third in a neutrel place. Who wins?

#2 Posted by dondave (37404 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer

#3 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Morningstomp

#4 Posted by KingOfAsh (3611 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingofash:

because shuma-gorath has literally done nothing to prove he is anywhere near lucifer's level. He simply doesn't have the feats.

Though im quite confused here, you made a mikaboshi vs shuma gorath thread about a week ago, and everyone agreed that CK stomps, and then you go on to make a lucifer vs shuma thread?

#6 Posted by KingOfAsh (3611 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: To be honest I didn't know Lucifer was that strong. What level is he at? Galacuts? Mikaboshi? Anti-Monitor? The Great Evil Beast?

#7 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingofash:

above anti monitor, and below the great evil beast.

he created a multiverse of his own (though michael had a part to play in it as well) and survived a multiversal blast like it was nothing. That's his most notable feat, it happened in lucifer #13 iirc.

#8 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma-Gorath is nothing compared to Lucifer Morningstar.

In fact he's not that powerful that all! he's one of the most overrated characters in this site, he's up there with guys like the Doctor, Ben 10, Percy Jackson etc.

Lucifer in a godstomp.

#9 Edited by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer should be above almost everyone in Marvel except beings like the Living Tribunal

#10 Edited by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer blinks.

#11 Posted by alternative_backup (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer Morningstar convinces Shuma-Gorath that the suicide would be a better option than having to face it. Shuma-Gorath commits suicide, and then, Lucifer Morningstar drinks a glass of wine to celebrate the victory.

#12 Edited by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Posted by capall2 (1428 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma gorath can not truly die...with this said, Lucifer recruits a new servant and acquires the Chaos dimension...

#14 Edited by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

@capall2 said:

Shuma gorath can not truly die...with this said, Lucifer recruits a new servant and acquires the Chaos dimension...

Doesn't mean Lucifer can't will him out of existence.

#15 Posted by Hyperlight (5822 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Edited by capall2 (1428 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackknight: how the heck would Lucifer will Shuma out of existence? This is something Sisneg already have tried and failed...no one in Marvel has accomplished this...what evidence do you have to suggest this would be possible?

#17 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

@capall2 said:

@jackknight: how the heck would Lucifer will Shuma out of existence? This is something Sisneg already have tried and failed...no one in Marvel has accomplished this...what evidence do you have to suggest this would be possible?

But Sise-Neg isn't quite as powerful as Lucifer.

Lucifer doesn't have to physically attack him.

Lucifer can just stare that Shuma-Gorath or just think him out of existence he said to another angel (who pi**ed him off) that he would think him out of existence here:

Or as @alternative_backup said, Lucifer could convince Shuma-Gorath to kill himself.

#18 Posted by alternative_backup (625 posts) - - Show Bio

@capall2 I know that Shuma-Gorath can be reformed after having been destroyed, but it could be reformed after being refused of existence? I think not, but I have my doubts.

Lucifer Morningstar has more raw power than Sise-Neg, so it could carry out to Shuma-Gorath.

No one at Marvel has been able to deny the existence of Shuma-Gorath? But, there are characters with enough potential to do so, as for example: The Living Tribunal.

#19 Posted by capall2 (1428 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackknight: NO ONE said Sisneg was as powerful as Lucifer...the point was that no one has accomplish this in Marvel period...your own speculation is that Lucifer can will him out of existence so I asked for evidence? Classic Strange amped to the max was not able to destroy Shuma and had to commit suicide...There is no question that Lucifer will win here, I would like you to support your claim that Lucifer is capable of erasing a being that exists outside of DCU/Vertico as powerful as Shuma gorath...their implied powers as written is that Shuma gorath while in his own dimension is virtually omnipotent as Lucifer himself is also virtually omnipotent almost anywhere...

#20 Posted by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

Sise-Neg recreated Marvel in its entirety. By feats, he's superior to Lucifer.

That said, easy win for Lucifer against Shuma.

#21 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@setherial:

sise neg recreated the cosmos on panel, only.

And the issue where he recreated it, was in 1974, the multiverse was introduced way before that, so he didn't recreate marvel in its entirety.

#22 Edited by XiiX (8241 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer sweeps.

#23 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@setherial:

sise neg recreated the cosmos on panel, only.

And the issue where he recreated it, was in 1974, the multiverse was introduced way before that, so he didn't recreate marvel in its entirety.

Its actually pretty unclear if Sise Neg even re-created anything at all, let alone the multiverse (which like you, the bio disagree, heck someone from KMC went so far to actually email the writer a long time back and had the email which also substantiates it not being multiversal)

First Sesi-Neg and co going to the begining of time, all they did was time travel, the difference being Sise Neg absorbed mystical energy from every major heavy hitter in marvel mystic hierarchy on earth.

So they go to the begining of time, the universe uncreates itself because thats when the big bang happened, then the Genesis instance

Now two things here:

1. Seis-Neg knows that he doesnt want to change anything because there is nothing he could improve on.

2. Seis-Neg himself claims that he "recreated" the universe.

Think of it once, what creates the universe, the big bang correct.

Had Sise-Neg dont nothing would it have been any different?

What did Sise-Neg do? (as opposed to what he could have done)

Nothing really, he thought the universe was perfect so he let the universe be born as it is.

3. But wait, was it the second creation of the universe? Here comes the interesting part:

Lets quote the good old Dr. Strange: "But did we see the second creation or coult it have been the first, reoccurring? "

Honestly thats what seem to have happened, which is what the bio seem to say as well but more on that later.

"Einstein believed if you launched yourself into space, you would eventually come back upon yourself" <-- interesting not as crucial here.

"Perhaps time si similar. Perhaps the end of our journey to Genesis had to be the beginning"

And thats the whole point, Seis Neg journey to Genesis was the end of his ascension, what he always wanted, knowing that the mysical energies in the universe is limited so he travelled back in time so he could absorb all of the mystical energy in the universe. He would become god. He did, but he doesnt really do anything with that power, he could have, he didnt.

The only bio Sise Neg ever appeared in, Marvel Handbook 1991, says more or less the same thing

"It is unclear what Sise-Neg meant by "re-creating" the universe when it appeared as if he did nothing but allowed creation to take its natural course"

I know even Mr. Master interprets the event different from this, he would go so far to believe Sise Neg > LT, i dont see anything to even remotely substantiate that, perhaps if we ever get into a debate, but meh!

Honestly thats what the whole issue seem to point anyways, that he allowed creation to take its natural course, it allowed the big bang to happened.

After all if Sise Neg wasnt there the big bang would have just happened as it did, like say in the most recent comics, as shown by Hickman

Big bang created everything, Sise-Neg seems to have done nothing, and big bang obviously isnt Sise Neg power, there have been number of issues that try to talk about why big bang happened and all have different answer, one was because the universe before us got destroyed after M'kraan crystal was broken by Dweller in the Darkness, this energy than merged with Galan of Taa forming a cosmic egg which exploded causing the big bang. Second was there was a being called One Before All, Nemesis being the name, who was alone, lonely killed itself and big bang happened, and third and perhaps the most bizzare of all was, it was the desire of sentient beings like Alien Entity, Reed etc who wanted to be born is what caused the big bang.

Then as per multiverse not being there before Sise Neg, Living Tribunal appeared good 7 years before Sise Neg.

Living Tribunal saying he looks after dimensionS as opposed to just one:

LT then talks about Worlds beyond Worlds

While he doesnt mentions the multiverse, he at least shows Strange a whole bunch of pocket dimensions, which are of course seperate universe, or cosmos as LT called it

So even if there was no multiverse, there were at least pocket universes and stuffs, something Sise Neg doesnt even affect. He affected the cosmos and the great void beyond , its upto you what you believe.

And if you havent seen the email to the writer

And to quote the writer

"Putting Sise-neg in the position of God was big time enough for us back then- i never thought about whether he really was the THE God or whether he created the REAL universe, let alone UniverseS. "

He talks about Eternity story and Eternity or Dr. Strange having re-created the universe, a story i am unaware of.

We could argue whether Sise Neg created the universe or not, but there is little to no place to argue he had anything to do with the multiverse. Writer disagrees, the issue disagree, bio disagrees, everything disagrees on Sise-Neg ever having done anything remotely multiverse, even his universal feat is questionable, against issue, writer and bio all question his feat, why should i be any different :p

#24 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

cool post, don't have anything to add in regards to sise neg, you've covered it pretty well. But about the mutliverse - there is proof that there was a multiverse other than the ones you've posted

an alternate universe is featured in fantastic four #118 (1972):

2005 handbook the alternate earths #17 (which is a good source for this kind of information, id suggest you check it out) confirms its appearance:

you can as well take a look here, from the marvel encyclopdia: fantastic four handbook, you'll notice that there are several alternate realities made their first appearance before 1974:

heck, looking at this ^ , i can see alternate universes going back as far as 1963, id have to read those issues to confirm this though, still haven't read them.

Edit: regarding Mr Master's view, he believes that the 616 universe is of omniversal significance, and from what ive seen his only proof is a wiki, though this wiki has been made official by marvel:

http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

there are other evidences that indicate 616 universe is of multiversal siginificance, though the wiki is the only one that indicates that it's omniversal.

so in his view, when sise neg recreated the original big bang, he subsequently recreated the entire omniverse. Same thing he applies to the alien entity, at least that's what ive seen.

Personally, i disagree since this concept (616 universe being of omniversal/multiversal significance) doesn't apply in most of the cases, otherwise every universal threat would directly become omniversal. That's of course, setting aside the evidence you just provided which indicates that sise neg didn't even recreate it in the first place

#25 Edited by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer said:

@setherial:

sise neg recreated the cosmos on panel, only.

And the issue where he recreated it, was in 1974, the multiverse was introduced way before that, so he didn't recreate marvel in its entirety.

Except he very well did. He even showed the power to absorb from non-realities outside the universe he was in even before the end of his journey. Aside from that, he very clearly states that he will have control over "the universe...and beyond!". Aside from that, it's very clearly said that Sise-Neg held "all extant power".

@rolldestroyer said:

Personally, i disagree since this concept (616 universe being of omniversal/multiversal significance) doesn't apply in most of the cases, otherwise every universal threat would directly become omniversal. That's of course, setting aside the evidence you just provided which indicates that sise neg didn't even recreate it in the first place

The panels show Sise-Neg recreated Marvel, clear as day. You think that blast of magic energy from Sise-Neg at the end that exploded all existing energy forward and hurled Strange back to his timeline was just a fireworks show?

Additionally, the scanblast showing a listing of alternate realities just reinforces that Sise-Neg recreated more than a single universe, since Sise-Neg was shown absorbing from multiple alternate realities.

#26 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@setherial said:

Except he very well did. He even showed the power to absorb from non-realities outside the universe he was in even before the end of his journey. Aside from that, he very clearly states that he will have control over "the universe...and beyond!". Aside from that, it's very clearly said that Sise-Neg held "all extant power".

i am aware of the instance you're referring to, it was in the 4th page, you'll also notice that he says that he was going to recreate the universe in his image, and did he do that? no, so why should we believe the other statement that follows? and why should we even believe that claim when on panel all he was going to do was recreate 1 single universe?

that's setting aside that 12 pages forward he wasn't able to destroy shuma, which i suppose is a high showing for shuma and a low showing for sise neg.

@setherial said:

The panels show Sise-Neg recreated Marvel, clear as day.

correction, sise neg intended to recreate 1 universe.

see killemall's comment.

#27 Edited by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer said:

@setherial said:

Except he very well did. He even showed the power to absorb from non-realities outside the universe he was in even before the end of his journey. Aside from that, he very clearly states that he will have control over "the universe...and beyond!". Aside from that, it's very clearly said that Sise-Neg held "all extant power".

i am aware of the instance you're referring to, it was in the 4th page, you'll also notice that he says that he was going to recreate the universe in his image, and did he do that? no, so why should we believe the other statement that follows? and why should we even believe that claim when on panel all he was going to do was recreate 1 single universe?

He decided at the very end of his journey that he didn't want to recreate everything in his own image because he came to the realization that everything was perfect as it was. It was his own consciousness holding him back. He never states that he can't/doesn't have the power to turn everything how he wanted it to be if he ultimately decided to do so, especially since that would be contradictory to the purpose of absorbing all that magic in the first place.

It was beyond a single universe, but more on that later.

@rolldestroyer said:

that's setting aside that 12 pages forward he wasn't able to destroy shuma, which i suppose is a high showing for shuma and a low showing for sise neg.

Correction, Sise-Neg could have killed Shuma-Gorath easily if he wanted to. S-N wasn't trying to kill anybody or even fight anyone as he was going on his journey through time. He only stopped in three places and that was only because he was just curious each time as to who or what held such a high concentration of mystical energy at that point. Everything else was absorbed from afar as he went further through time. Sise-Neg only bothered himself with Shuma because Strange begged him to and when he caved in he knew it would take time to outright destroy it so he just decides to knock him out and take his energy without expending any of it. Shuma had absolutely no chance against Sise-Neg, and at most he would have absorbed "some" of his energy in a direct confrontation. It was just easier for Sise-Neg to BFR Shuma on the spot and remake that reality free of Shuma-Gorath immediately afterwards.

@rolldestroyer said:

correction, sise neg intended to recreate 1 universe.

The universe... and beyond :)

I did see his comment and it's outright wrong at worst to speculative at best. The Big Bang could have naturally happened without Sise-Neg. However, Sise-Neg very clearly recreated everything with his own power in that instance and replicated the effects of the Big Bang with magic, he didn't just "let creation take it's natural course". He actually explicitly states that he will recreate everything as it was, he doesn't say "oh lets wait for this Big Bang to spark behind me while we idle about for a few moments". He tells Strange and Mordo to remember him and has them hurled back to their exact place in time with all their memories intact. The story focuses on Sise-Neg and on his personal journey to become God and become the supreme being. A Big Bang just exploding behind him without any of his influence would be entirely counterintuitive to the story's purpose, especially since Sise-Neg decides to call himself "Genesis" right as the power bursts forth. That aside the panel very clearly shows Sise-Neg's own mystic image exploding with power. There are multiple means to create a Big Bang-like effect or recreate reality. We see it happen with Alien Entity, Entropy/Genis, and Thanos. It's silly to suggest Sise-Neg just sat there and waited for the Big Bang to happen and didn't replicate its effects with all the existing magical energy he had absorbed prior, especially since he says he's the one recreating everything.

And as for the single universe thing, no. It's interesting to see Steve Englehart's reponse - which somewhat goes against the response from the illustrator/co-author Frank Brunner when he recounts how Marvel execs told them they weren't allowed to make Sise-Neg the Supreme Being and that he and Steve threw a fit saying would go against the purpose of the story when they were initially told to print a retraction - but an author not understanding the cosmic implications of his story is not uncommon. He never even denied that Sise-Neg recreated more than a universe anyway, he simply says he gave no thought to it beyond what he wrote down.

Frank Brunner on Sise-Neg arc: http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2005/12/22/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-30/

Anyway, what's shown and written in Marvel Premiere in "Time Doom" and "Sise-Neg Genesis" is all that's needed to show that more than one universe was affected. All points in time are entirely different universes, the 691 Universe that Sise-Neg, Scathan, and Protege come from is a completely separate universe from 616 all just because it's a different timeline. We actually see Sise-Neg transporting between these various alternate universes and even absorbing power from Strange and Mordo while they were battling within a non-universe/void. That's in addition to Sise-Neg quite clearly saying that the universe "and beyond" will be his to control. He was sucking out the magical energy from entire universes in completely separate timelines throughout the course of his journey. It is even stated/shown that Doctor Strange and Baron Mordo rode Sise-Neg's explosion forward to their era aka the 616 reality aka their present.

And since I can tell from the scanblasts here that Mr Master's influence has spread to comicvine, let's just use what he says about the Sise-Neg affair:

==

Ben Grimm in a 616 Future, where the heroes age in real time:

Same heroes from 616, possible Future of 616, yet still a what if?

"You are from a Different Reality Mr Grimm"

We sensibly come to terms with the fact that although the term "Universe" was used to describe 616 and it's History back to the Pre-Big Bang point in 1974, we know this isn't correct, because every point in "Time" outside of the Present (616) is located in a separate Entire Alternate Universe/Eternity/Intifnity in Marvel comics.

==

Anyway, this Sise-Neg low-balling tirade by certain members of Comicvine is hilarious. Keep at it :D

#28 Edited by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

I've seen people say Sise-Neg only made one universe (I'm still undecided on whether it was one or more than one since both make good points) but I've never seen anyone argue that Sise-Neg didn't even recreate the universe as it was. That's way too speculative imo.

#29 Posted by DarkRaiden (7266 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma-Gorath is clearly multiversal+, maybe Omniversal level with his conquering of many dimensions, his mere presence destroying Galaxies, no evidence of LT or Eternity existing when he did in 616 (implying he beat them) and more. Yet Lucifer is still more powerful so he wins.

Online
#30 Posted by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma-Gorath is clearly multiversal+, maybe Omniversal level with his conquering of many dimensions, his mere presence destroying Galaxies, no evidence of LT or Eternity existing when he did in 616 (implying he beat them) and more. Yet Lucifer is still more powerful so he wins.

That's stretching Shuma's power a big deal. At most he's a threat to one cosmos at a time.

Shuma existing in a reality isn't evidence that he beat LT or Eternity, otherwise every god within its domain could be said to have defeated the abstracts and LT because the god has control over the realm. Shuma-Gorath conquering dimensions doesn't go against the cosmic balance, so the prime abstracts and LT don't bother with him (aside from Lady Death in Thanos Imperative but that was when the Cancerverse threatened her very existence).

#31 Edited by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

Except he very well did.

Well then it shouldnt be that hard to provide us with a scan that says he created the multiverse, at least a bio that would say so??

Coz if he did, we would expect at least 1 mention of him having actually created the multiverse?

Because there are plenty of evidence to suggest what he , even not including the whole big bang thing (which i will get to in a min, and you quoting Thanos instance is completely incorrect, Alien Entity was correct but thats for later), was just a universe.

First Sise Neg himself explains what he intends to do:

"...ready to complete my journey to an era when there were no other magicians , when i shall control all the mystical energy there is"

the question, all the mystical energy there is? Was is there is in the universe, or there is in all marvel actuality.

Sise - Neg himself pretty clearly talk in universal terms:

"The mystical energy of the universe must be shared among all who understand its use".

Its pretty clear, because the mystical energy in the universe (and its pretty clearly a singular, no universeS, or dimensionS or realitieS, just one universe), he wanted to travel back in time to a point without any magic users so he can have all the powers.

If thats not enough evidence to you, Marvel Handbook 1991 perfectly corroborates it

"Source of superhuman powers: absorbition of all magical energy in the entire universe"

singular, no plural anywhere.

Again on panel, its said exactly the same again:

"And Sise-Neg spake uton them, saying , I am a wizard from the future, journeying to the past, to the dawn of creation, where through means of my own, i shall control all my magic in the universe "

Again a singular, 1 universe, not universes , not dimensions , no realities.

So perhaps you could show me where it is shown that he absorbs energy from more than one universe?

Or is marvel themselves trying to lowball Sise-Neg through bio??

Thats not including nearly 7 times the word universe is used to describe his power, or what uncreated itself was a cosmos, and what was re-created was a cosmos, singular, not plural, never plural.

He only absorbs the energy from Universe and a Void beyond it, and there is no plular Voids either.

That is very underwhelming feat to even suggest its multiverse, given the stacking of evidence against it.

The panels show Sise-Neg recreated Marvel, clear as day.

You mean the panel just before which says "

a

cosmos was uncreating itself"

So the term "a cosmos" extends to entirety of marvel?

Despite the fact that bio itself perfectly corroborates it?

"... traveled to the dawn of the universe with the intention to recreate universe in own image"

One universe again.

Nobody called it fireworks mate, we are calling it as it was shown in comics.

First, they reach to the point of big bang, regardless of what Sise-Neg does or does not do, the big bang is going to recreate itself, its a huge energy anyways (i will get into more detail when i reach the Alien Entity part).

And even if you look at the same magical energy blast from Sise-Neg, which we apparently called fireworks, you can see something clear as day

"Man is imperfect, but he is this dimension's (again singlular) closest approximation of perfection. I cannot improve upon that, so i shall recreated the universe exactly was it was before"

Again the same thing i said, picking what marvel themselves mentioned in the bio

"It is unclear what Sise-Neg meant by "re-creating" the universe when it appeared as if he did nothing but allow creation to take its natural course"

Yeah and on panel, Dr. Strange agrees as well.

"Did we see the second creation , or could it have been the first, reoccuring?"

And its pretty much unarguable that the first the universe was created, using the big bang, Sise Neg had nothing to do with it.

Heck, before Dr. Strange even met Sise Neg, Living Tribunal showed him how the universe was created:

Again i ask you the same thing, if Sise-Neg wasnt there, would anything have changed?

The most obvious is no, because its created by the big bang, and hence remains the same.

Just like how Hickman showed it.

Just like J, Michael Starczynski showed using Alien Entity

So Sise Neg having created 1 universe out of his power is questionable, because he does it smack at the begining of time, when even if Sise-Neg had done nothing the universe would have created itself.

Additionally, the scanblast showing a listing of alternate realities just reinforces that Sise-Neg recreated more than a single universe, since Sise-Neg was shown absorbing from multiple alternate realities.

It doesnt, can you show me at least 1 additional reality being affected by Sise-Neg, can you show me at least one mystical pocket universe being affected by Sise-Neg?

Living Tribunal mentioned a whole bunch of pocket universes

Sise Neg only actually confronts mystical being present on Earth, and Earth alone, because a pocket cosmos, as well as any alternate reality and their magic would be different from our universe.

He decided at the very end of his journey that he didn't want to recreate everything in his own image because he came to the realization that everything was perfect as it was. It was his own consciousness holding him back. He never states that he can't/doesn't have the power to turn everything how he wanted it to be if he ultimately decided to do so, especially since that would be contradictory to the purpose of absorbing all that magic in the first place.

Actually i agree with pretty much everything stated here, his power likely was beyond universal, he was meant to be "GOD" whichever level of infinity it may land across, but what i am questioning is his on panel feat.

And his on panel feat has nothing to do with creating marvel in the actuality, its at best universal, and even then its questionable if he even did anything apart from let the energy of the big bang do its work, at the end of the day, he ascended to god hood, which is exactly what he intented, but his intention to create a universe in his own image, and rule the universe and beyond was forgone because he now is a god.

It was beyond a single universe, but more on that later.

Sise Neg himself says "universe"

The issue itself says a cosmos

Bio says universe.

Heck you even saw the writer saying universe

But somehwo it was beyond a universe, and according to you marvel in its actuality, all i am asking for is show us one shed of proof to suggest what he did was create more than one universe, because i have shown you plenty to suggest otherwise.

The universe... and beyond :)

The intent is irrelevant, what we are questioning is his actual on panel feat.

I did see his comment and it's outright wrong at worst to speculative at best.

I see the comics itself repeating calling it a universe, i see Sise Neg himself calling it a universe, i see the feat alongside the issue number being shown on bio as universal, i even see writer himself commenting its unviersal but my argument , backed by that much is somehow wrong and speculative at best while what you are saying is correct?

When did you turn into 7am??

Yeah and immeditaly after than we actually see Dr. Strange on panel questioning did we see a new begining of the universe, or did we see the old begining, did we see exactly what happened before (i.e. the unhindered big bang), are we going to ignore that completely?

Are we also going to ignore what the bio says?

Yes an.

Its not like Marvel is jam packed with the so called god. Thanos has become god 3 times now, Nebula acended to god hood twice, Dr. Doom did it on multiple occasions as well. So yeah that whole journey into the God thing isnt the be all and end all of anything.

It completely wouldnt and being counter-productive has never stopped Steven Engelheart from writing the story. How about Dr. Strange: Quest for Eternity? Dr. Strange having to search for truth everywhere he can find, and at last having to resort to trying to pull the information out of Ancient One head, all of this just because Dormammu had allied with Mordro and he needed help from a being more powerful, i.e. Eternity.

How exactly does that story end again, by Eternity saying i wont help you. Is it any more counter-intuitive that this?

Does that change anything in the story.

Not to mention its not counter-intutative, its like the writer said as well as the artist, that it was about Sise-Neg journey into Godhood, a god hood he achieves and decide to change nothing, let the nature take its course.

That further bloster the whole concept of god from Christinity, the idea of non-inference, after all isnt Genesis derived from bible itself?

The only one similar is Alien Entity instance anyways, Thanos instance is completely different, and Entropy/ Genis is a very different story as well.

Alien Entity actually held the big bang on his hand, and used its energy to re-create the universe (a being no more powerful than a generalized abstract)

So Alien Entity himself didnt have the power to re-create the universe, not is the universe being created all his feat, because majority of stuff was done by the big bang, as in Sise-Neg case, the difference being Sise-Neg however likely had the power to create the universe on his own. Alien Entity was a normal human, bonded to cosmic entity, who repeteadly mention his power is finite, and he is hurt by bullets and stuffs, but thats a discussion from another day.

Genis instance is similar in the case there was something akin to a big bang, but it was mostly a minor discharge of energy from Genis gun, followed by Entropy, doing the only thing he could do, become his father. Its pretty clearly explained here.

Thanos instance is different because he creates the whole universe out of absolutely nothing, no big bang or anything like that.

Not to mention when Thanos actually re-creates reality 4321, its fundamentally different from the how reality 4321 was before, and the biggest difference is unlikely earlier, death of heroes would now be permanent, and there is no cheating death.

Not to mention it doesnt have:

a. A character like Dr. Strange pointing out how, what he saw was most likely re-occurance of the orginal big bang.

b. It doesnt have a bio saying what he did was unclear.

There is a huge difference there mate.

And since I can tell from the scanblasts here that Mr Master's influence has spread to comicvine, let's just use what he says about the Sise-Neg affair:

==

Ben Grimm in a 616 Future, where the heroes age in real time:

Same heroes from 616, possible Future of 616, yet still a what if?

"You are from a Different Reality Mr Grimm"

We sensibly come to terms with the fact that although the term "Universe" was used to describe 616 and it's History back to the Pre-Big Bang point in 1974, we know this isn't correct, because every point in "Time" outside of the Present (616) is located in a separate Entire Alternate Universe/Eternity/Intifnity in Marvel comics.

Yeah that not how Marvel universe work.

Its not like Dr. Doom and later Thanos totally went to the past in Reality 4321 without creating an alternate reality during Marvel the End.

Its not like MOD did not totally sent Dr. Doom into the past, and Doctor Doom came all the way to the present, without any alteration to the time line, apart from having a old version of Dr. Doom present alongside the new one.

MOD throwing Dr. Doom in the past (no alternate reality created)

The same Dr. Doom, with little help from Dark Avengers manages to come back to his own universe, after being old, to take revenge on MOD.

An alternate universe is not always created just because you time travel.

And even if we go with alternate reality being created, that doesnt do anything to change the fact that repeatedly its said what he created was universe, backed by bio (with the whole question mark being put there)

#32 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma-Gorath is clearly multiversal+, maybe Omniversal level with his conquering of many dimensions, his mere presence destroying Galaxies, no evidence of LT or Eternity existing when he did in 616 (implying he beat them) and more. Yet Lucifer is still more powerful so he wins.

Thats the worst argument if i have ever seen, give we have clearly on panel seen Lady Death unleash her power , which was sufficient to destroy the MOA, albiet temporarily (or perhaps cause them to flee) including the destruction of their major weapon the Galactus engine and entire Cancerverse reality.

Shuma doesnt even have a single universal feat to be honest, but given Thanos Imperative his power has been alluded to be beyond Celestial and less than Abstact.

He did not exist in 616 before Eternity or LT, the 616 universe was created out of a big bang, which gave birth to LT, Eternity and everyone. He exists in Chaos Dimension with no mention of him existing before or after Eternity or LT.

Not to mention Galactus is older than both Eternity and LT, yet still inferior, but somehow Shuma Gorath would be different?

#33 Edited by NeonGameWave (7783 posts) - - Show Bio

Morningstar slaughters.

#34 Edited by sync1 (2967 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Edited by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Well I don't need to fill this post with scans since, yet again, your evidence primarily boils down to "oh they said universe, not multiverse or omniverse". I've seen this over 100 times and it's always the same flawed argument. When the word "universe" is used it can refer to just a single reality or all existing realities depending on the context of the story that is using the term, and when actually looking at the context of the story and not just looking at the words like we're all still in elementary school, "Time Doom" and "Sise-Neg Genesis" were beyond universal in scope.

You're going to tell me that Sise-Neg's time period (Reality 691) and all the other realities they stopped in were in the same single universe (Reality 616)? Come on now. There's not a single comic that suggests that future realities are located within the prime reality. Every point in time outside the present is a completely separate universe, whether it be the past or the future. Sise-Neg states that he absorbed from his point in time (31st Century) and he continued to do so until he reached the dawn of creation. In order to absorb from his future timeline all the way to the dawn of creation he had to have absorbed magical energy from realities outside the 616 reality since both the future and the past are located in alternate realities: 18th Century France, early 6th Century period of King Arthur, Sodom and Gomorrah, Prehistoric Earth - all those stops that Sise-Neg made were alternate realities (universes) from Reality 616. Hell he even absorbed the magical energy from Strange and Mordo as they were in a "void between time" completely outside of any other universe. Finally when he unleashed his magical power at the end he returned Strange and Mordo to their era and restored all eras (timelines/realities) that had existed. Each timeline is part of its own separate universe, thus Sise-Neg restored all universes when he restored all timelines.

Btw, Sise-Neg only confronts mystical beings on Earth because he was interested in who on Earth at that point in time held such a mammoth concentration of mystical energy. Everything else was absorbed from afar. Sise-Neg didn't stop in pocket cosmos's because he didn't care about stopping in any pocket realms. It had nothing to do with realms having different types of magic - he easily absorbs from Shuma-Gorath, a magical entity that is extra-dimensional in origin and composed of alien energy that was potent enough to be capable of harming advanced mystics (Kaluu).

As to the idea that Sise-Neg just floated there and let the Big Bang explode from nowhere... -_- It's pretty funny that you say, "And its pretty much unarguable that the first the universe was created, using the big bang, Sise Neg had nothing to do with it" when the only thing you have backing up that idea is Strange questioning whether he saw the second creation or the first creation. Sorry, but you can't use speculation from a fallible character as definitive proof for one side or another. In the sentence before that he says Mordo saw the second creation, so he never came to a conclusion either way. Not only that, but we actually see that explosive blast of power come from Sise-Neg's body, not anywhere else. And there's always the on panel statement of Sise-Neg himself saying that HE will recreate the universe exactly as it was, which of course takes precedence over speculation from Strange or a brief footnote in a Marvel bio. Btw, Marvel.com's Marvel Universe bio states that Sise-Neg recreated the universe. http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe "...He (Sise-Neg) was continually drawn back further and further in time, encountering Doctor Strange along the way, until he reached the beginning of time itself and found he had ultimately absorbed near-infinite power. Finally discovering himself to be a god but realizing that he had a responsibility to re-create reality, Sise-Neg released his power to create a Big Bang."

You ask "if Sise-Neg wasn't there, would anything have changed?" And to that I say, Sise-Neg may not have changed the universe to suit his image, but I doubt the universe would be "exactly as it was" if he let a Big Bang erupt behind him and just sat there considering he was holding all the magical energy in existence within his body.

It's just more proof that the burst of power that did the recreating came from Sise-Neg himself and not another source. The panel states quite clearly that that explosion came from where "all extant power" had been held.

Who held all extant energy? Well, if the story arc showing Sise-Neg forcibly absorbing all the magical energy in existence is any indication - Sise-Neg did, as this panel so generously illustrates.

"Time, space, it all melts into power, power with a name - - Sise-Neg!"

#36 Edited by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Well I don't need to fill this post with scans since, yet again, your evidence primarily boils down to "oh they said universe, not multiverse or omniverse". I've seen this over 100 times and it's always the same flawed argument. When the word "universe" is used it can refer to just a single reality or all existing realities depending on the context of the story that is using the term, and when actually looking at the context of the story and not just looking at the words like we're all still in elementary school, "Time Doom" and "Sise-Neg Genesis" were beyond universal in scope.

Thats not true, not to mention that is people just making excuse.

Not only is the issue continuously talking about universe, we have on panel pretty clearly stated "a cosmos" no amount of word play is going to change that.

Furthermore, what you are repeatedly ignoring is marvel handbook that clearly refers to Sise-Neg clearly states everything in terms of universe as well.

You have to somehow have to prove why bio then explained it in terms of universe , unless you are saying people who are writing the bio have no idea what you are talking about.

We also have Steven Engelhart, himself, explained the whole stuff are universal, so that not only is an underwhelming proof to suggest its scope is multiverse, its outright contradicted by everything:

1. On panal evidence.

2. Bio.

3. Writers commentary.

Also the whole attempted insult is completely un-necessary when there is so much proof supporting my view as opposed to yours mate. You can call it "elementary school thinking" or whatever you like, doesnt change the fact that on panel evidence, bio and writer commentary not only does not support your wanking of Sise-Neg it outright contradicts it.

So yes, we will need evidence, enough to actually suggest it was multiversal, beyond the overwhelming evidence pretty cearly, unambiguously saying its universal.

You're going to tell me that Sise-Neg's time period (Reality 691) and all the other realities they stopped in were in the same single universe (Reality 616)? Come on now. There's not a single comic that suggests that future realities are located within the prime reality. Every point in time outside the present is a completely separate universe, whether it be the past or the future.

Firstly i would like to see you substantiate that last part please.

Thats not true, at all.

Every point in time are NOT set completely out in a seperate universe, Eternity, is time. Is is Embodiment of ALL time in the universe, you are telling me Eternity himself is outside various seperate universe.

As per why reality 691 is different from 616, its because its on the many potential futures of the universe.

Its much better shown quite recently through Legion.

Not to mention i am not contesting Sise-Neg power wasnt perhaps more than universal (which i dont have to given the bio collaborates it perfectly) but that his own on panel feat was universal.

Again Marvel Handbook are official publication, granted they are considered a second hand source of information against issue, when a scope of something in the issue is pretty repeatedly addressed as universal, and the bio does exactly that, together with writer's commentary, its pretty silly to try and argue about it.

Here writer confirming its only universe.

Not only does the writer outright say it was only a universe he goes so far to compare his feat with Eternity, saying Eternity feat was clearly his isnt.

That undermines your whole argument that it was a multiverse, stated universe.

Bio says - universe

Writer says - universe.

Comics itselfs says - universe

You and few fans would say multiverse

Given the overwhelming proof on the side of the universe and honestly apart from people making a big deal about the universe and "beyond" or him absorbing energies from the Void, while travelling throught time in the universe, there is nothing to substantiate it was multiverse to begin with.

Neither of this is even relevant to what we are questioning, we are questioning his untimate feat, and that was pretty clearly universal.

Prove it.

Show me where it says he restored timelineS/ Reality.

The entirety of story lies on one time line and multiple.

Sise-Neg didn't stop in pocket cosmos's because he didn't care about stopping in any pocket realms.

Substantiate this self made claim please.

Show me one instance that suggest Sise-Neg didnt stop on any pocket Cosmos because he didnt care about stopping in any reals??

Making out own story here are we??

Again i am not 7am mate, i am not saying he did not absorb extradimensional energy because it was different, i am saying he did not absorb any extradimensional cosmos, because the scope of the story doesnt extend that far.

He absorb Shuma Gorath's power on Earth, that also doesnt change the fact that Shuma's own realm is actually filled with mystical energy.

Would you like me to substantiate that ??

Its the scope of the story that doesnt even include a single alternate realty, let alone some of the highest dimensions like dimension of manifest.

As to the idea that Sise-Neg just floated there and let the Big Bang explode from nowhere... -_- It's pretty funny that you say, "And its pretty much unarguable that the first the universe was created, using the big bang, Sise Neg had nothing to do with it" when the only thing you have backing up that idea is Strange questioning whether he saw the second creation or the first creation. Sorry, but you can't use speculation from a fallible character as definitive proof for one side or another.

Unless you have pretty clearly closed yours eyes and saying lets pretend he doesnt have proof, i dont see how i am only using Strange "questioning" it.

Again, lets to it one more time.

Dr. Strange on panel questioning the feat, he would even go so far to quote Einstein to justify his view.

Is that the only thing, absolutely no. His statement is perfectly collaborated by Marvel bio (i like how you posted Marvel Wiki and pretended it was a bio)

A statement made by the character, the prime character of the story, who goes so far to quote Einstein by itself becomes hard to ignore, let alone when its perfectly collaborated with Marvel Handbook.

Furthermore, collaborated perfectly by the writers commentary as well:

So we have a statement in comics, backed by bio, backed by writer's commentary, not to mention pefectly logical question, but your argument or rather a cop out from it is because Dr. Strange is a "fallible character".

It doesnt get any more infallible than multiple second hand collaboration.

Btw, Marvel.com's Marvel Universe bio states that Sise-Neg recreated the universe. http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe "...He (Sise-Neg) was continually drawn back further and further in time, encountering Doctor Strange along the way, until he reached the beginning of time itself and found he had ultimately absorbed near-infinite power. Finally discovering himself to be a god but realizing that he had a responsibility to re-create reality, Sise-Neg released his power to create a Big Bang."

Thats a wiki mate not sure why you would go so far to quote a wiki, not to mention the wiki does nothing to substantiate the core of your argument that it was a multiverse.

Not to mention that wiki is directly contradicted by an actual published Handbook.

This is the actual Handbook Publication mate

You ask "if Sise-Neg wasn't there, would anything have changed?" And to that I say, Sise-Neg may not have changed the universe to suit his image, but I doubt the universe would be "exactly as it was" if he let a Big Bang erupt behind him and just sat there considering he was holding all the magical energy in existence within his body.

Thats actually a pretty fair view there though.

That still doesnt change the fact that official publication has gone far to question the same feat, on panel, on bio and an unofficial reply from the writer does the same.

You wanna say the feat is clear, you have to somehow try to counter the panel evidence, and the bio, alongside writer's commentary.

Not to mention that not all you are doing, you are then claiming its scope is FAR greater than that, and extends to entire marvel actuality, which is NOT even once mentioned in the issue, unless you belive a universe and the Void is all the marvel actuality is all about.

It's just more proof that the burst of power that did the recreating came from Sise-Neg himself and not another source. The panel states quite clearly that that explosion came from where "all extant power" had been held.

Who held all extant energy? Well, if the story arc showing Sise-Neg forcibly absorbing all the magical energy in existence is any indication - Sise-Neg did, as this panel so generously illustrates.

Firstly i dont understand the purpose of scan in this case, sure Sise-Neg was melded into the universe, he became God, not contesting that, he also uses the power of big bang, which by no means is mystical energy alone, to create the universe.

What i am questioning, and so is the issue and the bio, is , did he really do anything above what would have normally happened if he had let creation take its place, because it looks like he didnt, apart from distributing his mystical energies to where it belong, throughout the universe.

And that still does not even remotely substantiate it being anything beyond universal mate, which is what on panel evidence, bio, and writer commentary agree. You and a couple of fans are the only ones that disagree.

#37 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@setherial:

a few points id like to add, you say that if we look into the context of the story it's clear that it's the multiverse when in fact you're not even looking into the story itself, the 31st century being earth 691 is from an entirely different comic, let's look into the relevant comic:

to quote strange: i must follow them both into time -- for the power of sese-neg is the greatest threat to our reality

so tell me, if those timelines are alternate universes don't you think strange would have noted that sise neg would be a threat to other realities as well?

another thing, in the end sise-neg pretty clearly uses the terms dimension and universe interchangeably:

when we know in the same issue he references shuma's dimension:

Edit: another example: .........your superiority over me in our reality, but when i discovered the book of cagliostro and how i could alter that reality to become supreme.

so it's clear that while time travelling he's affecting only that 1 reality, still want to argue on this part?

so looking closely into the context of the story it's pretty clear that nothing other than a universe/dimension was invlolved.

and please, don't come with evidence outside the comic itself, because the whole concept of "alternate timelines are alternate universes" isn't used in all comics.

#38 Edited by MagneticTempest (207 posts) - - Show Bio

Enough of this already. Setherial is right. Killemall/Rolldestroyer is wrong. The end.

#39 Edited by spartanpgh (81 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont know much about Shuma, but from his Wiki he sounds incredibly strong

"Shuma-Gorath is an ancient force of chaos, the immortal, nigh-invincible and godlike ruler of nearly a hundred alternate universes, capable of energy projection; shapeshifting;teleportation; levitation; altering reality and sympathetic magic amongst many other feats. He is described as being vastly more powerful than other mighty demonic enemies of Strange such as Satannish, Mephisto and even Dormammu.[9]"

#40 Posted by DonaldDuck (132 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer Morningstar convinces Shuma-Gorath that the suicide would be a better option than having to face it. Shuma-Gorath commits suicide, and then, Lucifer Morningstar drinks a glass of wine to celebrate the victory.

After Lucifer drinks the glass, he grows tentacles unwillingly and becomes Shuma-Gorath. Quack!?
How did that happen? Quack quack!

#41 Edited by DonaldDuck (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@setherial:

a few points id like to add, you say that if we look into the context of the story it's clear that it's the multiverse when in fact you're not even looking into the story itself, the 31st century being earth 691 is from an entirely different comic, let's look into the relevant comic:

to quote strange: i must follow them both into time -- for the power of sese-neg is the greatest threat to our reality

so tell me, if those timelines are alternate universes don't you think strange would have noted that sise neg would be a threat to other realities as well?

He already had because time itself was being compressed as Siseneg went back in time to absorb it. We are also talking about the Sorcerer Supreme Dr. Strange who confronted Siseneg. The same Strange who prior confronted the Living Tribunal. Quack.

another thing, in the end sise-neg pretty clearly uses the terms dimension and universe interchangeably:

when we know in the same issue he references shuma's dimension:

Siseneg just like Living Tribunal can not anticipate otherdimensional/extradimensionsal entities because their origin and power is beyond the scope of Eternity's. He interchangeably exchanges the world dimension with universe in the context that the 3rd dimensional universe needed the sentient cause and effects of man. In other words. A 3D universe can only be upgraded so far and in regard to the sentientness of a person or things is able to further keep that 3D universe in harmony.

Edit: another example: .........your superiority over me in our reality, but when i discovered the book of cagliostro and how i could alter that reality to become supreme.

so it's clear that while time travelling he's affecting only that 1 reality, still want to argue on this part?

so looking closely into the context of the story it's pretty clear that nothing other than a universe/dimension was invlolved.

and please, don't come with evidence outside the comic itself, because the whole concept of "alternate timelines are alternate universes" isn't used in all comics.

"......your superiority over me in our reality, but when i discovered the book of cagliostro and how i could alter that reality to become supreme."

The Book of Cagliostro was a moot and a dead end for Mordor because Dr. Strange is already the Sorcerer Supreme. Meaning, no matter how or what Mordor does, Strange will always be his Superior. If you have not noticed yet, there is only one Sorcerer Supreme per timeline and multiverse. That's because there is only one Vishanti. One Vishanti that gives the Sorcerer Supreme the only title to defend the entire multiverse from outside sources. The paradox is that while Sesineg didn't come from the outside still absorbed mystical events from the future backwards.

  1. Meaning, he had to of had absorbed Battle of Atom
  2. absorbed Infinities events
  3. absorbed Age of Ultron's events
  4. absorbed Avengers vs X-Men events
  5. absorbed Schism's events
  6. absorbed Fear Itself events
  7. absorbed Age of X events
  8. absorbed Chaos Wars events
  9. absorbed Thanos' Imperative events
  10. absorbed Realm of Kings events
  11. absorbed Siege events
  12. absorbed War of Kings events
  13. absorbed Secret Invasion events
  14. absorbed Annihilation Conquest events
  15. absorbed World War Hulk events
  16. absorbed Civil War events
  17. absorbed House of M events
  18. absorbed Infinity Crusade events
  19. absorbed Infinity War events
  20. absorbed Infinity Gauntlet events
  21. absorbed Secret Wars II events
  22. absorbed Secret War I events
  23. absorbed formation of the Defenders events
  24. all the way down to Prehistoric time where Shuma-Gorath carried the most concentrated and massive of all the rest of the timelines. (as stated by Siseneg himself)

Yet he did this all hidden before the sight of the All-Seeing Eye of Agamotto. Meaning that his skill is above even to that of Sorcerer Supreme Strange.

Keep in mind that Sesineg was only born in the 31st century. He might have lived and studied magic up until the END of TIME and then worked his way back to the beginning. Needless to say, since he was born from within the 31st century, no story arc in Marvel exceeds passed the 21st century so that's an extra 10 centuries of unseen arcs and events that Sesineg had absorbed in addition to the 24 I've already listed.

QUACK!

#42 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5516 posts) - - Show Bio

Morningstar.

#43 Posted by DarkRaiden (7266 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Shuma-Gorath is clearly multiversal+, maybe Omniversal level with his conquering of many dimensions, his mere presence destroying Galaxies, no evidence of LT or Eternity existing when he did in 616 (implying he beat them) and more. Yet Lucifer is still more powerful so he wins.

Thats the worst argument if i have ever seen, give we have clearly on panel seen Lady Death unleash her power , which was sufficient to destroy the MOA, albiet temporarily (or perhaps cause them to flee) including the destruction of their major weapon the Galactus engine and entire Cancerverse reality.

Shuma doesnt even have a single universal feat to be honest, but given Thanos Imperative his power has been alluded to be beyond Celestial and less than Abstact.

He did not exist in 616 before Eternity or LT, the 616 universe was created out of a big bang, which gave birth to LT, Eternity and everyone. He exists in Chaos Dimension with no mention of him existing before or after Eternity or LT.

Not to mention Galactus is older than both Eternity and LT, yet still inferior, but somehow Shuma Gorath would be different?

IIRC Death's power didn't destroy Shuma Gorath himself. But regardless, I wasn't saying him being older makes him stronger, but the fact that they were nowhere to be found, coupled with other feats of Vishanti not being able to banish him and even Sise-neg not wanting to fight him, imply that he killed or defeated both Eternity and LT. He's Universal because he literally has conquered hundreds of Universes aka Dimensions, and remember, he makes Mephisto and Dormammu look like mice in a great temple, and Mephisto is Galaxy buster+ at max.

Regardless, Lucifer wins as he's Omniversal and the equivalent of The Presence's Will and Mind.

Online
#44 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio


IIRC Death's power didn't destroy Shuma Gorath himself.

Many Angled Ones where a collection of Ancient Beings, including Shuma Gorath, their invasion was stopped, Thanos goes so far to say the energy from Death crippled them.

So Shuma Gorath was either extremely hurt, destroyed, or he fled, just from Death's energy alone, and it was never even mentioned its her full power, nor do we see anything to suggest it was, given she does it with extreme ease.


But regardless, I wasn't saying him being older makes him stronger, but the fact that they were nowhere to be found

Given that Shuma wasnt a part of 616 before it was created, and Eternity, LT where created at the moment of big bang, i.e. immediately when the universe was created i have no clue to what you are saying. There is absolutely no mention of Shuma Gorath being in 616 reality before Eternity or LT, Shuma Gorath just came to earth after universe was created.

Also you cant be in 616 before Abstract, because 616 universe and Abstract were created simultaneously.

That never happened. There is only a mentioned of Vishanti having fought Shuma before, and that they would not normally come into Dr. Strange's aid. I would like to see you substantiate that.

Not to mention that feat would have been note worthy if Vishanti were anywhere close to as powerful as Abstracts themselves.

The 2 most powerful being in their universe is said to be the prime Abstracts, Lord Order and Master Chaos.

We also have Eternity being the most powerful mystical entity of them all in 616.

So Vishanti dont have anything to really compare with Abstracts, so i find a feat of Vishanti not being able to banish Shuma , which never happened, being dragged to suggest Shuma superior over abstract, and LT which is as inaccurate as it gets.

Point being Sise-Neg did not want to fight anyone , he was going on his merry way. Its not like the issue even remotely alludes to Shuma being anywhere close to as powerful as Sise-Neg, all it does it to show that Shuma was the most powerful mystical being to have come to Earth.

Again no idea where you keep getting this from, there is no implication that would even remotely hint that Shuma ever had a confrontation with Eternity or LT.

No to mention we have an instance with Death being clearly shown more powerful than Shuma.

We have a second instance where Shuma is a part of Infinity Assembly, a Assembly held under Living Tribunal power.

I agree he is universal, you claimed he was multiversal +, which he certainly isnt. He is a universal threat at best.

Conquered hundreds of dimension is not a feat we have ever seen on panel, and given dimension can be universe or pocket universe, and we have seen pocket universe that was pretty damn tiny like Olympus (the size of a city), Asgard (the size of US continent), that feat become pretty hard to even consider to suggest his power is anywhere remotely close to multiversal.

Shuma Gorath, in his realm, was implied to be that powerful. In fact, not just Gorath, but Arioch , who comes in before Shuma (and obviously weaker) was said to be that powerful.

That doesn't change the fact that neither Mephisto nor Dormammu would be any more powerful than a mice against genuine Abstract. Did we not clearly see Umar looking into the past instance of Dormammu challenging Eternity, simulatnerously saying he dares challange Eternity, has my brother taken leave of his senses. Did we not see Mephisto comparing Dormammu vs Eternity with Silver Surfer once fighting Galactus, in regards to Mephisto think of challenging Living Tribunal?

Dormammu doesnt have neither feats, nor hyperbole to suggest he is superior to Odin, Mephisto is still far less inferior, let alone a feat with these two being compared to Abstracts.

Only when Mephisto is in his realm, and mostly to do with a self made statement.

Its not like Skyfather are already galaxy busters, and still far inferior to Celestials.

We see how Abstract power compares against Assemblage of Galactus + Primodial Gods + Celestials.

#45 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@donaldduck said:

He already had because time itself was being compressed as Siseneg went back in time to absorb it. We are also talking about the Sorcerer Supreme Dr. Strange who confronted Siseneg. The same Strange who prior confronted the Living Tribunal. Quack.

strange clearly said that he must follow them in time lest his reality would be threatened. If, by going to the future is going to an alternate universe, he wouldn't have said "our" reality.

You mean the same LT who said that he could kill strange with a gesture? despite that this same LT was helpless against nebulos 5 issues later?

@donaldduck said:

Siseneg just like Living Tribunal can not anticipate otherdimensional/extradimensionsal entities because their origin and power is beyond the scope of Eternity's. He interchangeably exchanges the world dimension with universe in the context that the 3rd dimensional universe needed the sentient cause and effects of man. In other words. A 3D universe can only be upgraded so far and in regard to the sentientness of a person or things is able to further keep that 3D universe in harmony.

no pocket dimension are still 3D, it's best described in doctor strange sorcerer supreme #21:

only when we go outward from the pocket dimensions, will the dimensions become irrational (like the dark dimension), and LT still has power there, he just takes different shapes and forms

simply put: a pocket dimension is a 3d universe but whose size is limited, as seen in the mighty avengers handbook:

sise-neg didn't affect those, he only affected the 616 3D universe.

@donaldduck said:

The Book of Cagliostro was a moot and a dead end for Mordor because Dr. Strange is already the Sorcerer Supreme. Meaning, no matter how or what Mordor does, Strange will always be his Superior. If you have not noticed yet, there is only one Sorcerer Supreme per timeline and multiverse. That's because there is only one Vishanti. One Vishanti that gives the Sorcerer Supreme the only title to defend the entire multiverse from outside sources. The paradox is that while Sesineg didn't come from the outside still absorbed mystical events from the future backwards.

not sure what' debatable here, mordo wanted to usurp strange to become SS in this reality. if every different era is a different universe he would be usurping strange in another reality, but he clearly said on panel "our" reality, not any other. the evidence is clear.

the sorcerer supreme title is limited to one universe/reality, while there is one vishanti since they are extradimensional deities and live in pocket dimension.

@donaldduck said:

  1. Meaning, he had to of had absorbed Battle of Atom
  2. absorbed Infinities events
  3. absorbed Age of Ultron's events
  4. absorbed Avengers vs X-Men events
  5. absorbed Schism's events
  6. absorbed Fear Itself events
  7. absorbed Age of X events
  8. absorbed Chaos Wars events
  9. absorbed Thanos' Imperative events
  10. absorbed Realm of Kings events
  11. absorbed Siege events
  12. absorbed War of Kings events
  13. absorbed Secret Invasion events
  14. absorbed Annihilation Conquest events
  15. absorbed World War Hulk events
  16. absorbed Civil War events
  17. absorbed House of M events
  18. absorbed Infinity Crusade events
  19. absorbed Infinity War events
  20. absorbed Infinity Gauntlet events
  21. absorbed Secret Wars II events
  22. absorbed Secret War I events
  23. absorbed formation of the Defenders events
  24. all the way down to Prehistoric time where Shuma-Gorath carried the most concentrated and massive of all the rest of the timelines. (as stated by Siseneg himself)

you're not serious with this are you? that story was written in 1974.......

@donaldduck said:

Yet he did this all hidden before the sight of the All-Seeing Eye of Agamotto. Meaning that his skill is above even to that of Sorcerer Supreme Strange.

Keep in mind that Sesineg was only born in the 31st century. He might have lived and studied magic up until the END of TIME and then worked his way back to the beginning. Needless to say, since he was born from within the 31st century, no story arc in Marvel exceeds passed the 21st century so that's an extra 10 centuries of unseen arcs and events that Sesineg had absorbed in addition to the 24 I've already listed.

QUACK!

yeah, strange was even surprised that someone is more powerful than the all seeing eye when he attacked mordo with it, sise-neg reset time at that point so that it never happened, never mentioned anything otherwise.

the writer already said that he didn't intend anything beyond what happened in the story, that's......stretching it.......a lot.

#46 Edited by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: just a head's up, that's an alternate account from 7am_waking_up or more commonly knows as LanceBastro, or TronBonne, so good luck with the argument there :)

Edit: although Vishanti are not from a pocket dimension, they are from the Dimension of Magik (aka the Real of Vishanti), which is a full fledged universe with their own abstract of necessity, balance and vengence, which are Lord Order, Inbetweener and Master Chaos.

#47 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: just a head's up, that's an alternate account from 7am_waking_up or more commonly knows as LanceBastro, or TronBonne, so good luck with the argument there :)

that makes sense, i recall reading a thread where he said that all extra-dimensional entities are close to LT in terms of power, he's the only one who is capable of making such a claim.

#48 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer:

Edit: although Vishanti are not from a pocket dimension, they are from the Dimension of Magik (aka the Real of Vishanti), which is a full fledged universe with their own abstract of necessity, balance and vengence, which are Lord Order, Inbetweener and Master Chaos.

didn't see this part since i didn't refresh the page.

the handbook however, refers to agamotto as (may be) extra-dimensional and resides in a pocket dimension:

there are other references, here's the 2 pages of the handbook they're in (OHOTMU mystic arcana)

there's also the OHOTMU master edition, that says their base of operation are unknown extradimensional realms:

#49 Posted by FairyGodMother (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: just a head's up, that's an alternate account from 7am_waking_up or more commonly knows as LanceBastro, or TronBonne, so good luck with the argument there :)

Put 'em together and what have you got

bibbidi-bobbidi-boo

#50 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2979 posts) - - Show Bio