#1 Posted by *Void* (874 posts) - - Show Bio

These two civilizations have three days prep but have no access to items like the M'Kraan Crystal etc...

Apokalips is lead by Darksied with Orion as his second in command

The Shiar are led by Vulcan with Gladiator (100%)

No PIS,CIS or Bfr.

#2 Posted by Almighty_Darkseid (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

apokalips stomps brutally

#3 Posted by SHAZAM117 (2171 posts) - - Show Bio

Apokalips for the takeover...I could be wrong, but I don't see how the Shiar have an answer for the Omega Effect from Darkseid

#4 Posted by TheSwordsman (1954 posts) - - Show Bio

The Shi'ar seem to have a superior space fleet which will likely give them the win. If it were ground troops I would still give the win to the Shi'ar because their troops could give Darkseids troops a good fight and the Imperial Guard would be the game-changer for the Shi'ar win.

#5 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

Apokalips wins Darkseid's been at this for too long to lose and Does anyone recall Cosmic Oddessy when Orion beat an entire planet up? I mean all the people one the planet in one fly by.

#6 Posted by Killemall (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok at the end of the day its a planet vs a intergalactic empire with 1000s of planet within it, and people are saying Apoklips wins? Am i missing something

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#7 Posted by Killemall (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

apokalips stomps brutally

Would you care to explain?

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#8 Posted by Almighty_Darkseid (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

apokalips stomps brutally

Would you care to explain?

apokalips, new gods, darkseid, orion all these names are enough to put fear in all of them

and cause of ob eradicates them all

#9 Posted by Killemall (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

apokalips, new gods, darkseid, orion all these names are enough to put fear in all of them

and cause of ob eradicates them all

Well number wise Shiar should have a massive advantage, once Shair had Kree as a part of them, not sure if thats true after annihilation i sort of have slacked off on that reading. Also i personally dont see Darkseid erasing what people from thousands of planets at once, and we know Shair have planet busting weapons, they were able to turn ego into a small jelly and send him to earth who's a planet (Maximum Security story arc).

I am actually leaning towards Shiar empire, i still cant understand why it would be a stomp!

Also it says Shiar vs Apokalips not New Genesis so apart from Orion i dont understand why other new gods would be in this battle. I would assume its Darkseid, Orion, Kalibak and their parademons.

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#10 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

There is the fact that Apokolips lies in another dimension and is completely inaccessible to Shi'ar, thus allowing Apokolips to attack them with impunity. There is also the disparity in technology. Shi'ar can bust planets, that's nice. Apokolips hand grenades can do that. Apokoliptian weapons are far more destructive, boom tubes grant them an unheard of advantage in strategic mobility, and their tech-of-the-week stuff is pretty insane. The war isn't a stomp, it's just one sided. One party can attack the other with superior firepower and mobility wherever and whenever they want, and the other side is utterly unable to return the ball.

Also, as a personal peeve:

@*Void* said:

These two civilizations have three days prep

Wars do not work that way!

#11 Edited by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom: I was expecting the footnote to be about how no one got the name of Apokolips right.
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#12 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_: Man I didn't even notice that. That's downright disappointing. Shame on you CV! SHAME!!!

#13 Posted by stu (375 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiar stomps !!!!

#14 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiar win handily. I say this cause if the mere JLA can beat back Darkseids forces the entir hundred Billions of Shiar Ships and Troops with teh Elite Imperial Guard led by Superman himself.. I mean Gladiator... and Vulcan would decimate the Apokolips. Also Dimension hopping is a EVERYDAY thing in Marvel, Shiar no doubt have it too. They could ezly bring the fight to Darksieds planet.  
 
One Sided for the Shiar.  
 
Also dont give me that Omega Beam crap! I see your OBs and Raise you the Mkraan Crystal.
#15 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

Shiar win handily. I say this cause if the mere JLA can beat back Darkseids forces

You say that as if the JLA hasn't already massacred entire invasion fleet by themselves.

the entir hundred Billions of Shiar Ships and Troops

Never seen, but somehow presumed to be anything more than cannon fodder. Please. Orion slaguhtered the entire standing army of Thanagar on his own as a distraction. Can you imagine what he'll do to these guys?

teh Elite Imperial Guard led by Superman himself.. I mean Gladiator...

LOL Didn't he get beaten by Gambit?

and Vulcan would decimate the Apokolips

Another LOL

Also Dimension hopping is a EVERYDAY thing in Marvel, Shiar no doubt have it too. They could ezly bring the fight to Darksieds planet.

Never demonstrated as a common occurrence, never adapted on a level needed to transport troops and ships. So no. Funnily enough, DC also hop dimensions every day, and they can't seem to get into Apokolips that easy either...

I see your OBs and Raise you the Mkraan Crystal.

LOL Way to not read the OP.

#16 Posted by Killemall (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

There is the fact that Apokolips lies in another dimension and is completely inaccessible to Shi'ar, thus allowing Apokolips to attack them with impunity.

When we talk about a battle thread its assumed that both can reach each other else its kind of unfair. how is this any different from people saying Power Cosmic would not work on DC or that Speedforce would not work on marvel, thats just nitpicking. Also there is the fact that Sh'iar have teleportation technology range of which is unknown, if they can use the teleportation technology to get people from Asgard to Sh'iar empire i dont understand why being able to reach apokolips would be so hard.

There is also the disparity in technology.

Shair empire beimg marvel the most powerful and most advanced civilization would mean they are not outclassed by any means against Apokolips.

Shi'ar can bust planets, that's nice. Apokolips hand grenades can do that.

And that makes this a one sided affair, their technology (Sh'iar) is Duex Ex machine, they were able to create black holes, destroy planet, turn Ego into a jelly and sent them to earth.

Apokoliptian weapons are far more destructive, boom tubes grant them an unheard of advantage in strategic mobility, and their tech-of-the-week stuff is pretty insane.

that looks like an unfair assessment . Shi'ar have lasers made to fight Phoenix.

One party can attack the other with superior firepower and mobility wherever and whenever they want, and the other side is utterly unable to return the ball.

Well they have far superior number, weapons that arent any less potent, regardless of how powerful weapons of Apokolips are i dont see the planet tanking more than few hits from a Shi'ar lasser cannon, and Shi'ar has to destroy one planet with their inhabitant while Apokolips have to destroy an entire armada of billion worlds. I dont see how this is one sided at all.

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#17 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

When we talk about a battle thread its assumed that both can reach each other else its kind of unfair. how is this any different from people saying Power Cosmic would not work on DC or that Speedforce would not work on marvel, thats just nitpicking. Also there is the fact that Sh'iar have teleportation technology range of which is unknown, if they can use the teleportation technology to get people from Asgard to Sh'iar empire i dont understand why being able to reach apokolips would be so hard.

This is not a cross-universe issue. DC has the exact same problem. It is one of the points of the Fourth World. Yeah, it is kind of unfair, but if it wasn't supposed to be an issue, the OP should have said so. The Shiar have never adapted their technology to a scale needed to move armies, and even if they did, teleporting into Apokolips without a boom tube carries other problems. Namely you'd be about the size of an ant.

Shair empire beimg marvel the most powerful and most advanced civilization would mean they are not outclassed by any means against Apokolips.

Uh, I'm pretty sure that's not true. They were effectively stalemated by a beaten down and worn out Kree empire with help from the Inhumans in War of Kings. Sure, they may have an edge over Kree and Skrulls, but that's not an overpowering advantage, and it ignores alien races like the Phalanx, Technarchy, Watchers, etc.

And that makes this a one sided affair, their technology (Sh'iar) is Duex Ex machine, they were able to create black holes, destroy planet, turn Ego into a jelly and sent them to earth.

And Apokoliptian technology isn't? I mean hell, I'd hate to bring out Countdown into any respectable debate, but I'm pretty sure it's still canon that the Morticoccus virus killed off an entire universe for the hell of it. Motherboxes and fatherboxes are essentially limited reality warping engines. Genesis box undoes and restructures all of reality just to get rid of Darkseid. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about here.

that looks like an unfair assessment . Shi'ar have lasers made to fight Phoenix.

A one off thing? But fair enough, that's pretty impressive.

Well they have far superior number, weapons that arent any less potent, regardless of how powerful weapons of Apokolips are i dont see the planet tanking more than few hits from a Shi'ar lasser cannon, and Shi'ar has to destroy one planet with their inhabitant while Apokolips have to destroy an entire armada of billion worlds. I dont see how this is one sided at all.

Apokoliptian technology is a tremendous equalizer to numbers. Hell, about the only war we see Darkseid partake is one against superior numbers, and that was a war against gods from all over the universe. And Shi'ar cannons can hardly do anything if they can't get there, which is still a very big concern here.

#18 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
Phantom laying down the law. 
 
Also, the lasers only hurt a wounded Phoenix in Endsong, it's not like they can do it all the time or that the Shi'ar have invented some kind of anti-Phoenix gun.
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#19 Posted by Killemall (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

This is not a cross-universe issue. DC has the exact same problem. It is one of the points of the Fourth World. Yeah, it is kind of unfair, but if it wasn't supposed to be an issue, the OP should have said so. The Shiar have never adapted their technology to a scale needed to move armies, and even if they did, teleporting into Apokolips without a boom tube carries other problems. Namely you'd be about the size of an ant.

Fair enough , but you are saying Sh'iar loses because they cant reach Apokolips? I am assuming they do someone manage to reach Apokolips for this battle,


Uh, I'm pretty sure that's not true. They were effectively stalemated by a beaten down and worn out Kree empire with help from the Inhumans in War of Kings. Sure, they may have an edge over Kree and Skrulls, but that's not an overpowering advantage, and it ignores alien races like the Phalanx, Technarchy, Watchers, etc.

Why would it not be true, Shi'ar were the most powerful civilization conqurers and Kree were a part of Shi'ar at one point in time. Also in War Of Kings they dont actually take down the entire Shi'ar universe but defeat the fleet following Vulcan.

Phalanx are not really any more advance than Kree, dont know about Technarchy but Watcher would be more advanced. Watchers, Celestials are more advanced but are , i dont know how to say, not really considered among the alien races. When i said most advanced i meant in terms of Kree, Skrulls who are themselves are pretty powerful.


And Apokoliptian technology isn't? I mean hell, I'd hate to bring out Countdown into any respectable debate, but I'm pretty sure it's still canon that the Morticoccus virus killed off an entire universe for the hell of it. Motherboxes and fatherboxes are essentially limited reality warping engines. Genesis box undoes and restructures all of reality just to get rid of Darkseid. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about here.

I never said Apokoliptian technology isnt this was in response what you said earlier that Apokoliptian techonology are far advance, which i dont think is the case. Genesis box appeared in the non cannon issue where Orion was to used it to kill Darkseid, has it ever appeared in a cannon issue??


A one off thing? But fair enough, that's pretty impressive.

They have superior number, few powerhouses like Gladiators, we have seen 6 of them right, including a female version in War of Kings, the only powerhouse here for Apokolips is Darkseid (the gangsta), Orion and Kalibak. I still dont understand how this is a stomp.


Apokoliptian technology is a tremendous equalizer to numbers. Hell, about the only war we see Darkseid partake is one against superior numbers, and that was a war against gods from all over the universe. And Shi'ar cannons can hardly do anything if they can't get there, which is still a very big concern here.

So as long as Shi'ar dont have the logistics problem you would believe they have a good chance?

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#20 Posted by chriconz123 (582 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

They have superior number, few powerhouses like Gladiators, we have seen 6 of them right, including a female version in War of Kings, the only powerhouse here for Apokolips is Darkseid (the gangsta), Orion and Kalibak. I still dont understand how this is a stomp.

Gladiator is of no comparison to either Darkseid or Orion. It's a stomp because mainly, the Shi'ar have no means of teleporting their massive fleet to the Fourth World without having to get some access to boomtubes. Apokolips however, have done that numerous times. Darskeid alone should be giving them a good run.

#21 Posted by Killemall (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

@chriconz123 said:

Gladiator is of no comparison to either Darkseid or Orion. It's a stomp because mainly, the Shi'ar have no means of teleporting their massive fleet to the Fourth World without having to get some access to boomtubes. Apokolips however, have done that numerous times. Darskeid alone should be giving them a good run.

Like i told At Phatom, since its a battle between Shi'ar and Apokolips i am assuming there will be no teleportation problem.

Well i can see Orion beating a Galdiator, but there are at least 6 of them that we have seen. I dont see Orion beating more than one, Galdiator are at least as fast and as strong. Orion's astroharness is formidable but we have vulcan on the other hand who'd probably manipulate any and all energy.

Can darkseid beat Galdiator? Of course he can , he would stomp, but how is Darkseid going to beat an entire armada with more than a million ship together?? Dont see that happening.

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#22 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Fair enough , but you are saying Sh'iar loses because they cant reach Apokolips? I am assuming they do someone manage to reach Apokolips for this battle,

No, to be clear I don't think that's the only reason they win, but it is what makes it completely one sided.

Why would it not be true, Shi'ar were the most powerful civilization conqurers and Kree were a part of Shi'ar at one point in time. Also in War Of Kings they dont actually take down the entire Shi'ar universe but defeat the fleet following Vulcan.

Phalanx are not really any more advance than Kree, dont know about Technarchy but Watcher would be more advanced. Watchers, Celestials are more advanced but are , i dont know how to say, not really considered among the alien races. When i said most advanced i meant in terms of Kree, Skrulls who are themselves are pretty powerful.

Fair enough, I supposed I should differentiate between still reachable races like Shi'ar and the more... cosmic ones like the Watchers. Still, I didn't say they were beaten by the Kree, I said they were stalemated, and this is very much true. And this is, remember, the Kree after they've spent the whole of Annihilation and Conquest being punched in the gut by whatever new threat decided to show up.

I never said Apokoliptian technology isnt this was in response what you said earlier that Apokoliptian techonology are far advance, which i dont think is the case. Genesis box appeared in the non cannon issue where Orion was to used it to kill Darkseid, has it ever appeared in a cannon issue??

Genesis Box was canon. It was seen in Grant Morrison's JLA, but in a future timeline. While the timeline itself was erased by people coming to the present, the Genesis Box, and the ability to create it, remain canon. And don't forget that the Genesis Box was made by Orion IN A BASEMENT! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!

Also from it, the Worlogog itself is an example of the New Gods technology. Sure it was one of a kind, but it was still made by them, not found or given or anything.

They have superior number, few powerhouses like Gladiators, we have seen 6 of them right, including a female version in War of Kings, the only powerhouse here for Apokolips is Darkseid (the gangsta), Orion and Kalibak. I still dont understand how this is a stomp.

This is not true. You have Devilance, Agogg, Mantis, a buttload of Female Furies, most of which are almost a match for Big Barda, Doctor Bedlam who is an army on his own, The Deep Six which can give Orion a bloody nose (and there are, in fact, 7 of them), and plenty of other beings. The amount of superbeings on Apokolips makes the Imperial Guard a non issue.

So as long as Shi'ar dont have the logistics problem you would believe they have a good chance?

No, like I said, that's not the only reason I think they lose. But I suppose I can say that without the logistics problem, they have a chance.

#23 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Like i told At Phatom,

HEY! I don't remember calling you names! :P

#24 Posted by Killemall (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

HEY! I don't remember calling you names! :P

But your name's so catchy :(

If it was created in a future timeline shouldnt it be non-cannon to the continuity?? Well dont know much about Warlogog apart from what i have read on comicvine and its like a map to anywhere in the universe and people were comparing it with classic IG, if they have that kind of weapon dont see how Shi'ar would win, that makes me wonder, how come JLA are able to stop Darkseid's invasion?? Is it like Galactus being curbed from earth everything he comes??

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#25 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

So Shiar Who can turn EGO the Living Planet (this guy gave Galactus trouble) into Jelly and sent to Earths prison yet they cant... Dimension hop... to Apokolipse..... ever.....  
 
Also DS gets his Omega Beams yet Shiar cant use Mkraan Crystal? I think as OP stated the Omega Beams are out the window. Shiar still take this due to Even Tech, Waaaaaay more Numbers, More powerhouses (Imperial Guard), and a whole Galaxy of resources vs Apokolipse by its lonesome. This is a war right? Resources for Shiar (Troops, Tech, Power Houses, Ships, Worlds, Building Materials, ect) are way too much for Darkseid, Orion, and Kalibak. Shiar together have Phoenix Lasers. Are you really going to argue DS and Orion are more powerful than the Phoenix or Ego?!
#26 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@AtPhantom said:

HEY! I don't remember calling you names! :P

But your name's so catchy :(

If it was created in a future timeline shouldnt it be non-cannon to the continuity?? Well dont know much about Warlogog apart from what i have read on comicvine and its like a map to anywhere in the universe and people were comparing it with classic IG, if they have that kind of weapon dont see how Shi'ar would win, that makes me wonder, how come JLA are able to stop Darkseid's invasion?? Is it like Galactus being curbed from earth everything he comes??

No. The future was destroyed, but the events are still valid, and all characters who participated remember what happened. The Worlogogg is like an active map. That is, instead of telling you what the universe looks like, you tell the universe what it looks like. So yeah, it's a reality warping weapon.

So how did they get beaten? If you're referring to the latest JL storyline, it is mentioned how Darkseid has cut a path of misery and destruction all across the multiverse. So the party that attacked Earth was probably just a minor scouting party with Earth itself not being high enough on his list to actually care. Of Course, I wouldn't trust Geoff Johns with Darkseid's characterization more than I can throw him, but that's it for now.

#27 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone remember Boss Darkseid. LOL. He was like a wannabe Wilson Fisk. Stupid.
#28 Posted by TheOverseer (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@chriconz123: Well accually Gladiator is, is power lies within his confidence and i believe that means its omnipotent as long as he believes so. and Lilandra and the shi'ar have been proven to have teleportation technology even b4 the kree were around. and the kree are one of the oldest living civilizations in all of marvel. so i see no reason why gladiator cant beat darkseid face in like superman has when he gets angry. and gladiator in my opinion is like superman if not stronger based on his confidence. and orion i dont really see being a factor seeing as Vulcan can absorbe and manipulate all forms of energy as well as convert it. those parademons are as dumb as rocks. and everyone in the Shi'ar are fighter. from the rulers clear on down to the janitors tha clean their ships. so im gonna say Shi'ar taked out Darkseids fleet. not easily seeing as all battle have casualties but in the end they prevail. not to mention that radion that kills gods

#29 Posted by AtPhantom (14472 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOverseer said:

@chriconz123: Well accually Gladiator is, is power lies within his confidence and i believe that means its omnipotent as long as he believes so.

No offense, but sweet buttery Jesus no!

#30 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Shi'ar

#31 Posted by chriconz123 (582 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOverseer said:

@chriconz123: Well accually Gladiator is, is power lies within his confidence and i believe that means its omnipotent as long as he believes so. and Lilandra and the shi'ar have been proven to have teleportation technology even b4 the kree were around. and the kree are one of the oldest living civilizations in all of marvel. so i see no reason why gladiator cant beat darkseid face in like superman has when he gets angry. and gladiator in my opinion is like superman if not stronger based on his confidence. and orion i dont really see being a factor seeing as Vulcan can absorbe and manipulate all forms of energy as well as convert it. those parademons are as dumb as rocks. and everyone in the Shi'ar are fighter. from the rulers clear on down to the janitors tha clean their ships. so im gonna say Shi'ar taked out Darkseids fleet. not easily seeing as all battle have casualties but in the end they prevail. not to mention that radion that kills gods

Oh god no. Gladiator is below Supes and Orions department, and way below Darkseids.

#32 Posted by cliffrice (990 posts) - - Show Bio

Gladiator alone can crack apokalips open like an egg. Shi'ar have Starkiller bombs which can frag a solarsystem. Silver surfer seemed to think that the Shi'ar had the tech to Possibly take out galactus. They did manage to hold him at bay though.

#33 Edited by TifaLockhart (13841 posts) - - Show Bio

Leaning toward Shi'ar due to numbers, but don't underestimate Darkseid's minions. With a thought he can create a being such as Stayne or Necromina. I don't remember what the active roster was for Apokolips though.

#34 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

he gets orion? gotta go with apokalips then