Shadow the hedgehog vs, Knuckles the Echidna

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DeathHero61

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#151  Edited By DeathHero61

@swordmasterd: He is capable of teleportation and capable of using chaos control in several ways in sonic battle and in sonic chronicles, the dark brotherhood. Games which were after sonic adventure 2.

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swordmasterD

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DeathHero61

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@swordmasterd: Hmmm then there is no need to argue about it then if it was stated. But shadow can still teleport without a chaos emerald which is technically a form of chaos control.

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swordmasterD

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@deathhero61: I do admit that he can go short limited distances in the games for what ever reason but chaos control can also involve time/reality manipulation I just wanted to clear the misconception in the thread

I won't lie he beats knuckles

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oblivion360

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@cosmoman: since it's been awhile (didn't get any notification) i'll just comment on your most resent post

I don't know about deathhero but i would consider hyper form to be weaker because it has no feats. since it only appeared in one game, an old game when things were much simpler in the sonicverse. saying that its better because super emeralds are needed to transform is an assumption. since its only been shown to increase speed as if wearing the speed shoes (nowhere near light speed), unknown level of invincibility (I say unknown because the form was only tested against regular eggman robots nothing on the level of metal overlord, chaos, or biolizard/finalhazard) and a power flash that destroys all enemies on screen ( pretty sure it doesn't effect bosses but don't remember would have to play again. for now i'll look for an example on youtube) witch would put the hyper transformation around the level of shadows hero or dark form.

if you still want to I can make the battle between shadow and knuckles with the master emerald if you haven't already done it.

@deathhero61 super sonic, shadow and silver are definitely not omnipresent cosmoman is right they just fought him in different timelines

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DeathHero61

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@oblivion360: I meant to say nigh-omnipresent sorry. Plus he said they are omnipresent as well lol.

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Nigh_Omnipresence

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: Hold up, Actually, you're wrong. One on the premise that the super forms are stronger than the hyper forms (which is ridiculous, as the super forms are powered by the chaos emeralds where as the hyper forms need super emeralds (an enhanced version of the chaos emeralds just in case you didn't know) to transform, meaning more energy for the hyper form than the chaos emerald's fueled super form and btw not only has hyper sonic's superiority been implied by the creator of the game, but hyper sonic has been widely accepted as sonic's most powerful form to date, it's that obvious) and two that the super forms are omnipresent, they fought an omnipresent being (defeating him in that they represented/attacked in their respective time periods, shadow the past, sonic the present, and silver the future), but they themselves are not omnipresent.

@swordmasterd Agreed, he can't (unless you bring the comics into this, but since they are not apart of mainstream canon for sonic, nope), shadow has the potential to tap into chaos energy, but without those emerald as the tool to transform that potential into kinetic and actually supply that power, it won't work. You know how the old saying goes "The servers are the seven chaos, chaos is power, power is enriched by the heart, the controller serves to unify the chaos..".

Their powers could have gone into flux(IIRC this has happened with chaos emeralds.) mind you considering how hyper forms have shown no feats despite statements and powerscaling that show that they are stronger than superforms.

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oblivion360

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#159  Edited By oblivion360

"fact that the hyper form was superior to the super form in EVERY single way" the hyper from didn't show much superiority over the super from only the ability to breath under water and that flash that doesn't effect bosses. it doesn't show any other increase in fact it gets pushed back by missiles and gun fire the same way the super form does at the end of the game.

"you have to scale up the power, and for that reason it is waaaayyy more powerful than a super form" ok but how much stronger is it. 2x 3x 5x 10x 0.5x we don't know especially when it hasn't shown anything over the old super form other than breathing under water and a flash that kills normal enemies

"The very fact it takes super emeralds to fuel that transformation is a feat in and of itself" why? just to be clear the super emeralds were not chaos emeralds that got enhanced by the master emerald, it was a completely new set of emeralds placed in the game by Iizuka so players that already got the chaos emeralds can have something to collect. now we can say they did one of two things completely got rid of the super emeralds or made the super emeralds into the current chaos emeralds

Ill make the op soon.

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Shadow

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dudemanguy

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dudemanguy

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@hnic: shadows body is almost indestructable.wich gives him super durability.shadow has waay more fighting skill than sonic,and knuckles isnt actually that slow.he is able to keep up with sonic,but shadow wins

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CaptainJapanSavesTokyo

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Knuckles Honestly Stands No chance Against the ultimate life form

Shadow CURBSTOMPS

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Badassporkchop

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Shadow should wreck him pretty easy. Smarter, faster, more skilled, more powerful (not in terms of raw muscle but in terms just overall power). He really should win here.

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DeathHero61

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@cosmoman: If knuckles gets hyper knuckles, then why doesn't shadow get a hyper transformation as well? Even then, hyper knuckles has been retconned decades ago. Even then, aside from being stronger and faster than a superform, Knuckles has no showings of energy projection, no showings of time manipulation in his superform let alone his hyperform, and Shadow is far more versatile with an emerald. Aside from the statement of hyperknuckles being stronger than super knuckles, you have no feats to present.

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DeathHero61

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@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: If shadow ever had a showing of a hyper transformation then I would be more than happy to discuss it, until then I'm afraid he's stuck with what he has. As for Hyper knuckles being retconned, when?

Your argument that Hyper knuckles lacks energy blast/time manipulation is reasonable, but pointless. For example, it is now known that Super Sonic can knock back the likes of Dark Gaia, an enemy the size of a mountain (Boss fight of sonic unleashed), but in the older games Super sonic could get stuck on a rock in bis path or fall into an abyss. Is one to assume that Super Sonic couldn't move that rock or fly from that abyss if he wanted just because it wasn't allowed? No one in his right mind would. Then how could you say knuckles couldn't shoot energy blast in his hyper form, especially when he has done so in lesser forms (Shoots fireballs from his fist in Golden barrier form, Sonic Heroes boss fight), if anything he would be able to do So on a more amazing scale, he even has energy projection in base forms (Thunder arrow in SAB2, Volcanic Dunk in Sonic Heroes, Knuckles Slam in Sonic Rivals, that's right, he doesn't even need a chaos emerald for that, unlike shadow ?), so to say he wouldn't in a hyper form is just Nonsense. And that's just looking at the facts. Knuckles takes this.

The Super Emeralds were retconned, look it up. Plus its a possible transformation, Shadow has interactions with chaos emeralds before, who's to say he wouldn't be able to do so with basically emeralds that are enhanced versions of the regular emeralds?

That's a stupid argument. Of course in unleashed he's able to do such a thing as opposed to what he was able to do in the older games, Sonic characters, including Sonic have progressively gotten stronger. Shoots fireballs from his fist? Do you have a gif or a link showing that? Plus that was when Sonic gave Tails and Knuckles his own energy from the transformation. Thunder arrow doesn't compare to any of the energy projection Shadow has shown. Plus, shadow doesn't need a chaos emerald for chaos blast or chaos spear or the large majority of his moves, he only needs a chaos emerald for chaos control in particular and even then, there's so much proof of him doing high end time/space manipulation without an emerald such as Chaos Rift, Chaos Magic, etc. Shadow's energy projection is significantly more impressive. Knuckles has not CONSISTENTLY shown energy projection like Shadow has. This is why your argument is silly. Unless you can show me good feats of energy projection for Hyper Knuckles you don't have an argument. Super Shadow was weakening a multi-dimensional being with his energy projection. There's also his fight against Mephiles and his spawn. Shadow has far more impressive feats in general, and you're basically giving knuckles the win based off a form you only see in literally one game with literally no other feats after that game. On top of the fact that Knuckles also has not been in a superform since Knuckles' own game, along with the aforementioned game featuring Hyper Knuckles, what you are doing is the equivalent of me using Classic Superman, the same superman who was pulling thousands of planets with him, sneezing away solar systems, and so on and so forth, who is no longer relevant to what superman is now. Super Emeralds have been retconned so this is basically Super Knuckles vs Super Shadow, in which Shadow wins. Even then, if this was Super Shadow vs Hyper Knuckles, SS would still win, because the gap between Super and Hyper has never been mentioned or stated, and Shadow himself is still vastly more versatile, and i am still waiting for time manipulation on par with Shadow's. Because not even Sonic(even in Archie Comics) was as good as shadow at chaos control.......(sonic said so himself)

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DeathHero61

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#170  Edited By DeathHero61

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: Yeah, I don't quite believe you. Where was this stated? I don't remember that anywhere during or after Sonic 3 And Knuckles. And also, Shadow, at best, only has the chaos emeralds (can't turn hyper with those) and Knuckles has the emerald that made the Super emeralds, well, Super. Hyper shadow is a possible transformation, but not an actual transformation, only sticking to the facts here. Fact is, Knuckles has turned Hyper, Shadow, nope.

The creators themselves said as much.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nzxRoIX4QU

"So Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckleshad...the lock-on, and...for people who played Sonic 3 the first time, they went through and they collected all the emeralds, right? ...So you already played Sonic 3 and you go to play Sonic & Knuckles, you've gotta have more emeralds to collect...and we put the Super Emeralds right there... Going forward, y'know, we also have...the Super Emeralds, the Master Emerald, and there's all these emeralds, and we've got too many, so when we released Sonic Adventure, we went back and just sort of cleaned up all the Emeralds and kind of reduced that down so we can have a little more control." They literally stated the Super Emeralds weren't returning to the series, they made no more references to them, had them never appear, and never did we see the hyper forms ever again. We had this conversation 2 years ago. We went over this.

...Did you just say Sonic Characters get stronger?? Besides a big duh, Is that your real answer for Sonic not being able to move a rock as Super Sonic, or dying after falling off of a cliff? Even though he is shown to float/fly in- game? It's called in game limitations and obstacles.

They did though, as the games went on, Sonic himself gained more impressive feats, same goes for the other characters as well. Heck even Knuckles. And i never said anything about in game limitations and obstacles, even then, Super Sonic in other games now performs better than that IN GAMEPLAY.

Link for Knuckles shooting fireballs from his fists. https://youtu.be/AGdyT3zNf24 Time, 5:04 And yes the chaos energy was shared,but last I checked Chaos energy doesn't have Sonic stamped on it, and two Sonic can't shoot energy from his fist, it just enhances existing abilities, like as shown.

Sonic has shown energy projection in Chronicles Dark Brotherhood, Sonic Colors 3ds version, and a couple of other games as well. Heck in his base form he's capable of doing energy projection attacks.....

Looked at your whole paragraph and it boils down to knuckles not having abilities in his appearance as Hyper knuckles. Well I'm sorry if the creators couldn't think of interdimensional beings with their poor puny brains back then, but the thing is, his strength is the same then as it is now. The strength was just tested against another foe. You don't take away those feats from supes even though they were unrealistic, until very recently (a few STATED, status quo changing reboots) they were very relevant. And last I checked no one is taking Mecha Sonic out of the Canon, who is even older, so Hyper knuckles is fine, it didn't appear in Sonic'06 or something?. Super Shad has feats like weakening solaris WITH HELP from two other super forms, and we see that a not even fully powered Super Knuckles can take on metal overlord (also with assistance) and hold his own. Utilizing fireballs. You can claim what you want, the facts speak for themselves. Knuckles can go super and has gone hyper. Hyper forms are on other levels compared to supers (stated in your previous post). Knuckles has shown the ability to produce projectiles (I have a list of them in previous post all along this board, that isn't even disputable..even time stopping SAB2), even in Super form (see my link). Hyper knuckles would stomp Super Shadow due to agree durability and superior strength (enough to stun super sonic base form). He is literally on another level at this point, time control won't save S.S. Prove he can't go hyper anymore, what of this Retcon, because last I checked cleaning up the emeralds doesn't mean the forms don't exist, it means the emeralds they used does, but Knux has the M.E. still.

Have fun believing that. Knuckles won't even have the master emerald to go super in the first place. It's a giant emerald that he usually leaves unguarded at his Altar.......So at the end of the day it's still Shadow vs Knuckles Standard gear, which in result Shadow wins. Chaos Emeralds only? Shadow still wins. And even if Knux knew Chaos control, he cannot do it to the extent Sonic and Shadow do, and he especially cannot manipulate space and time like Shadow himself can. I'm not gonna bother arguing with you about energy projection either. You cannot consistently show me feats for Hyper Knuckles, and even if you show me feats of him doing energy projection, you cannot show me how far hyper knuckles increases his capabilities. Which would be a factor as well. Plus another reason why the Super Emeralds don't even make sense anyway is because the Chaos Emeralds are already a limitless power source, i wouldn't be surprised if you could achieve a hyper form with only the emeralds alone, but that's just a theory, and i won't pass it off as fact like you did with Knuckles apparently being able to negate chaos energy any time he wants during combat despite having no proof whatsoever.

The writers themselves clearly retconned the emeralds, they clearly want nothing to do with them in their continuity for the series, otherwise they would have brought it back up or at least referenced them. Because at the end of the day remember, In Sonic 3, the Master Emerald basically spawns the Super Emeralds, if you have the Super Emeralds, why bother with the Chaos Emeralds? Then that would add more to the universe that would already be unnecessary, this is why it was never even referenced in any of the games as well. Plus you need ALL SUPER EMERALDS in order for the Master Emerald to activate the hyper forms, that was the entire point of the extra special stages.........so even if you wanted to go that route you couldn't, how does Knuckles carry the Master Emerald around with him? It's practically been a common meme and well known that Knuckles leaves the altar unguarded. Even in the comics and TV shows. He has no way of carrying it around. So you cannot just say he can pull it out of nowhere.

Knowing you, you're not going to be objective about this and you're still going to insist that you're right about this, i'm just going to agree to disagree. Because i don't have time for this. I don't even know why you bothered bumping this.

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DeathHero61

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#172  Edited By DeathHero61

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: deathhero61: I think you mean I have been stomping your argument into the ground for 2 years XD. But seriously, there is one Point that is bothersome and the key point to this argument. Have the Hyper forms been retconned? And the answer is no, they have not. As I stated in my previous post, the interview you referred to in an earlier post (looked it up before I posted my last post, it's a little after the 9:30 mark) states that in Sonic Canon before Adventure there were a total of 14 existing emeralds (7 being just enhances versions of another, Ie Super emeralds are enhanced Chaos emeralds), so to make it less confusing from then on they would only use the Chaos emeralds in the series, the Super emeralds would not make a comeback in any future installments.

..

...

.... That's it, that is what they said. They didn't say the timeline never existed, they never said Hyper forms don't count or never existed, they just said you won't see the Super emeralds. That's like saying Mecha Sonic will not be seen in the series again. Does this mean he never existed?? No, he just won't be returning, same with the Super emeralds. Hyper forms were not retconned. Don't claim that interview as proof of that, unless you seen something I didn't? I would respond to your "lack of objectivity" claim, but i'm only interested in the facts, so bring some.

Btw i've already proven he has a way to carry the Master Emerald, we can take up that topic after this one.

Dude, your comparison with Mecha Sonic is horrible. Mecha Sonic was referenced in other games, and Mecha Sonic is also considered one of the many models of Eggman's replicates of Sonic, Metal Sonic being his perfect version of what Mecha Sonic was supposed to be. As for the emeralds themselves, like i said, they clearly intended for the Super Emeralds to be retconned and never mentioned ever again, this is why the hyper forms were never mentioned as well, think of the plots of the games after sonic 3. The characters wonder, what could possible be done to protect the world, or what could be used as a power source, they always resort to chaos emeralds and not the super emeralds. Implying that they no longer exist. Mecha Sonic and other older models from the classic games are referenced, the Super Emeralds aren't.

The fact that they INTENDED for it not to exist means they it was retconned, you saying otherwise is just silly. Either way, let's just centralize the topic, do you believe Knunckles can beat shadow in base? Do you believe he can beat shadow when they are both relying on chaos emeralds and not super emeralds?

Knuckles still needs all 7 super emeralds, his master emerald being one of them.....and you haven't proved anything in that regard that wasn't inconsistent or backed up by the creators themselves......just like you haven't proved how Knuckles in combat can negate chaos based attacks let alone chaos control.......(not even shadow can do this and he's clearly knuckles superior in chaos energy manipulation.)

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DeathHero61

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@cosmoman: Yeah sure, you "schooled" me. I'll let you think that. Now answer my question

Either way, let's just centralize the topic, do you believe Knuckles can beat shadow in base? Do you believe he can beat shadow when they are both relying on chaos emeralds and not super emeralds?

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By feats, Knucks got this.

By lore, could go either way.

By CV logic, Shadow stomps.

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DeathHero61

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@tparks said:

By feats, Knucks got this.

By lore, could go either way.

By CV logic, Shadow stomps.

Eh? Depends.

Agreed.

CV Logic? Shadow has feats.....

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: I believe knuckles can still beat Shadow the hedgehog, with severe difficulty. I say this because while knuckles is not sonic' s equal in speed he is certainly no slouch and can take Sonic, who is by all means faster than Shadow. His power is significantly higher than shadow's,having so many greater feats (including knocking someone out of a super form), his energy feats are not as good as shadows, but no where lacking, as he can call volcanic eruptions, guard with the earth, call forth chaos lightning, meteors from the sky, stop time, etc. Shadow has the up in durability, for sure, I'll admit that, but it won't hold up to Knuckles raw power. And Knuckles can sense Chaos energy, leaving shadow at a Disadvantage in that area. Oh, also Knux is a master fighter from a warrior tibe, Meanwhile shadow learned, military martial arts... probably?? H2h, definitely Knuckles.

Shad vs Knux both with emeralds, Knux slight advantage

Shad (emeralds) vs Knux (M.E.) Knuckles,

Super forms (full potential) Super Shadow vs Hyper Knuckles Hyper Knuckles, super stomp.

Can take Sonic? Sonic has legit beat Knuckles in most, if not all fights that they had. I already addressed this, but in Sonic Battle, Sonic himself even commented on his fighting style, that it's predictable and easy to read, this is proven by his track record, beaten by Emerl when he was practically a baby on two separate occasions,(where as Shadow stalemated him without an emerald and sparred with him and performed better and even beat him once in battle a point you keep deliberately ignoring.) in Rush, he was beaten by Blaze, whereas Shadow has had a great record. Defeating Black Doom, has by far been Sonic's greatest Rival, and has more feats and better feats as well. As for the super form business, that's so inconsistent it's hilarious, and there could have been so many factors for that.(one of them you even mentioned before on this thread IIRC) On top of the fact that Sonic was completely off guard. And they needed a way to move the plot at the beginning of the game. Super Sonic and any other super state is near invulnerable, Knuckles even knocking it back is PIS in itself considering Super Sonic's feats.

As for the volcanic eruptions, that can and will be debunked if you are referring to Sonic Heroes. Because Knux was performing those same "volcanic eruptions" on stages where there would have been no realistic way to perform such feats. If you are referring to overall fire/heat manipulation then sure, but come on. Shadow can heal himself with chaos control, can distort space around his fist(which is actually a better feat than some of knuckles energy projection based feats) his energy projection in his own titles have been used to take down armies of GUN soldiers and Aliens with ease. His geokinesis is pitiful as well. Struggling to toss down one Meteor as opposed to Semi-Ultimate and Ultimate Emerl who can spam them.

And the lowballing on Shadow's H2H is hilarious. Shadow is a genetically engineered life form designed and engineered for war......this is why he was able to make such good use of military training, said military training he managed to apply to such a great extent that he is capable of learning how to use any weapon he picks up in an efficient manner, and even being able to learn how to pilot any vehicle as well. Shadow is more skilled. And Rouge herself has schooled Knuckles and gave him a run for his money on some occasion, and she is significantly below Shadow. Shadow also has more overall physical strength than Sonic, being capable of punching down giant steel doors, and flipping over tanks and buses with ease.

And Knuckles can sense Chaos energy, leaving shadow at a Disadvantage in that area.

BTW you have yet to prove that Knuckles can effectively use this ability in combat.

Shad vs Knux both with emeralds, Knux slight advantage

Shad (emeralds) vs Knux (M.E.) Knuckles,

Super forms (full potential) Super Shadow vs Hyper Knuckles Hyper Knuckles, super stomp.

How does Knuckles have the advantage? Shadow is his superior in the manipulation of chaos energy.......

The Master Emerald wouldn't give him any real adantages the chaos emeralds wouldn't have already. Plus i already discussed this, Master Emerald cannot be carried around.

The only one he's winning here is the one involving Hyper Knuckles, which truth be told is you just being petty.

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DeathHero61

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@cosmoman: Tag me again, i'll reply to this later today or tomorrow i have to go do something.

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DeathHero61

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@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61 : Gotcha and No worries man, take your time.

This is for later:

"

@deathhero61: Sonic called him predictable... the Hypersonic speed reaching, "shadow is faster than me.. until Super emerl shows up and I have to dwarf shadow speed"thinking, I've known knuckles for forever and fought knuckles to a standstill in SA (after which sonic drops the emeralds and Knuckles sees he's been tricked) Sonic. That sonic you mean? Oh ok, we'll take that with a grain of salt because he did say that, Meanwhile Tails (sonic Chromicles, dark brotherhood), the Nocturnus Military clan, and a couple of games where it is implied they tie (SA, sonic battle, etc) would disagree with you. Shadow beat emerl yes, and that was impressive, but then again Knuvkles has beaten arguably someone stronger than emerl (CHAOS 6) and against shadow has an advantage, he can sense Chaos energy,Shadow's main arsenal. He was never beaten by blaze, she tricked him and knocked him in rocks, not a fight. False claim. And though inconsistent, can't just count the forms out because it's inconvenient for your argument XD. Plot mover or not it happened in their own words, Hyper form stomps. As for the super sonic uppercut, off guard super sonic= supersonic. Knuckles just had the strength and surprise facter to get the better of him.

Except that Sonic himself has toyed around with him for the most part,(just like he does with everyone else except Shadow who he's had the most iconic and most serious fights with for a couple of games) on top of the fact that an evaluation like the one Sonic gave him is pretty bad in knuckles case considering the fights they had. Chaos 6 was absolute weak sauce, Sonic and Knuckles beat them both in respective encounters, Knuckles having to fight him right after Sonic did. So the possibility of him already being weakened or soften up is there. Emerl is significantly more impressive, far more skilled and deadly, and can register new techniques based off the ones he learns. By the time he fought Shadow he already trained with Knuckles, Tails, Sonic etc. When Knuckles initially fought him for the first time(actually beat him twice in their encounter IIRC) Trick? Nothing implied that it was a trick, Blaze sent him flying. As for combatants that they fought Shadow stalemated Silver(he used the chaos emerald near the end) and he defeated Mephiles with assistance,(but did most of the work) and Mephiles is a whole deal greater than anyone Knuckles has fought, along with fighting the Iblis, Black Doom, among other characters. Shadow has consistently been more impressive than Knuckles.

Bruh, why wouldn't it be to move the plot along? Tell me. What would happen if Sonic kept moving around in his super form? He would have immediately stopped Eggman's plot with little to no opposition until Eggman got to his final phases(if he didn't get stopped before reaching them). Knuckles knocking him out of his super form also makes no sense considering it has been shown time and time again, that Super Sonic is basically end game stuff, nothing can compare to it unless it's a legit final boss(Dark Gaia, High End Eggman Mechs, Metal Overlord, which btw Knux needed chaos energy from sonic to even matter in that fight, etc.) And even then the only real tough fight for Super Sonic was Dark Gaia, a monster who's triggered power ripped apart the planet and caused devastation all over due to his denizens and held all types of influence. Unless you are arguing that Knuckles>SS or Knuckles =SS, this feat isn't possible. It's not even about it being more convenient for my argument, it's just common sense. You're pulling feats out of nowhere. What you're saying is practically the equivalent of Knuckles>Super Sonic and if you are willing to go that far just to put Knux over Shadow, i have no reason to debate this with you further.

Ok, Shadow has impressive feats with Chaos energy, I can admit that. But to be honest that isn't something particularly helpful against Knuvkles, he is naturally attuned with it. You keep saying :"use in combat", he was just walking and minding his own buisness and felt it, he tracks down emeralds and that energy for a living, he CAN use it if he wishes. That is proof in itself. "Not volcanic eruptions" called volcanic dunk.... I'm sure that's lava popping up, no doubt, as far as how he does it, talk with sega XD, not surprising though as he can cause up tremors, so it's no surprising he can call volcanic activity. And you say shadow was designed for war,that's cool. So was knuckles and comes from a warrior tribe and is a stated martial artist. Advantage, knuckles.

Prove that he can use it in combat or you don't have a case. Simple. It's not salt, it's not making excuses, it's not being close minded or anything, you brought that up out of nowhere based on nothing. If you're not gonna prove it then agree to disagree on it, because you have no proof, and you cannot back it up. If anything Knuckles can manipulate flames or lava. That's it. Knuckles wasn't designed, he was trained, have you ever played Hitman Absolution? The character Agent 47? It's like that.

For an Abbreviated Version

Hyper knuckles is legit, which makes this a stomp. Petty, probably, but True.

Pretty much the bold sums up what it actually is. I would say more but i covered everything in that regard. At this point you just want it to be a thing for the sake of it being a thing.

Volcanic Dunk summons lava from the earth, I agree with you it doesn't make sense, but that isn't my job to argue if it's logical, it's up to me to present facts. Fact presented.

Meh, not that it matters.

Martial arts: Not much is said on shadow' s martial arts background, besides being presented that G.U.N. may have trained him, Meanwhile knuckles is known as a martial artist in Various sonic games and comes from a warrior tribe, and has taken on multiple military fighters with life leeching weapons, Knuckles is probably alot more experienced in this area.

Again arguable, Shadow has been consistently more impressive in CQC and in combat in general, instantly adapting to any weapon he picks up in his own title, fighting and beating down several trained gun soldiers, Chronicles is basically feats for all the Sonic characters that were in the game, i cannot think of any super crazy feat that stands out that the others haven't performed unless you're referring to specific techniques or plot based fights that involved specifically Knuckles. Shadow's own game along with his role against Mephiles alone(the latter he was for the most part stomping until Shadow let his guard down) is more impressive than most of what Knuckles has done.

Energy: Has pyrokinesis, geokinesis (pitiful is a strong word for, someone who can use the earth to guard, heal then, and call meteors, more than shadow can do), Chaos manipulation (Not quite on shad' s level, but powerful to stop time and shoot electricity , apparently), he can sense Chaos build-up.

It is pitiful because in comparison to Shadow who can use Chaos Control to block attacks, distort space and heal from damage. On top of the fact the so called meteors come at an insanely slow pace and are small. Actually, he doesn't use his geokinesis much. Name anywhere from 5-6 things Knuckles can and has done with Geokinesis.

Oh and the M.E. Can be carried around, I already proved that but I'll post the link again.

found it again, @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrliUHrL_R8 1:35 "

Incredibly inconsistent, on top of the official explanation for Knuckles not being around is due to his duties guarding the master emerald, also there is no sign of teleportation or storage, it literally just transitions to him running off. Plus the size is incredibly off. In SA the size was entirely different to the point of being an unreasonable size for one to carry around for battle. Look even in Sonic 3 he carried it around by hand. The size of the emerald in not consistent and there has yet to be an in verse explanation on it's size, let alone how Knuckles carries it around.

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Shadow

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DeathHero61

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#184  Edited By DeathHero61

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: Good to have you back. Iconic fights you say? Ok, lets look at some of the legit fights in which Sonic has owned Shadow (there are no fights (outside of one of the optional pathways in Shadow the hedgehog) that display the opposite and only one that suggest a tie (their first battle in SAB2).

Shadow is clearly emphasized as his equal, despite Sonic being the superior of the two for factors such as skill and speed, it's quite obvious Shadow is a cut above the rest of the cast

Sonic Chronicles: (After fighting Shadow twice with Sonic's squad, Shadow and Sonic burn off to fight alone, Shadow admitting apparently he couldn't outrun the blue blur, but he could outfight him, again he takes an L. And here it is, https://youtu.be/FavvATdctjw 7:45-11:45).

He even compliments Sonic right after saying that he improved. This isn't a low showing for Shadow considering how far above Sonic is in comparison to both Shadow and Knuckles.

Sonic battle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv0zYwKyvG0 @ 4:00-4:30 Shadow tries to tell Sonic that Emerl is dangerous and should be destroyed, Sonic disagrees the way only sonic can. Shadow takes an L there (this loss is confirmed in shadow's Story/Gameplay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaTKL2XL-4I&t=1692s 7:30-8:25 he was wekened, but still an L)

Not really an L when he was fatigued and weakened and was trying to destroy both Emerl and get Sonic out of the way.

, also, IF that isn't enough when Sonic fights Emerl (even with seven Chaos emeralds) Sonic states that he wasn't even trying his hardest (47:10-47:18), the same Emerl comes and whoops Shadow, with Sonic saying he knew Shadow wouldn't be enough of a challenge (54:45-55:05). That's right the same Emerl that Sonic said wasn't ready yet beat Shadow, and when Sonic finally gets serious he fights faster than ANYONE there can imagine. Shadow is not his equal and Sonic holds back on him as well, just like everyone else. Knuckles never beat emerl, true, but he states the first time we was holding back severely, the second time he loses soundly. The last fight he loses again, but then again so does Shadow. Shadow beat emerl when he has all 7, but it was not done easily and was severely winded. Blaze didn't Majorly KO him, wasn't even a fight, seems like she suprised buried him in rock https://youtu.be/o7PORBz3as0 (2:40-2:50), it was quick thinking, but not a true defeat, or even noteworthy really.

Again good showing for Sonic not really a low showing for Shadow(especially considering Shadow was training a penti-ultimate emerl(6 emeralds) and semi-ultimate(7 emeralds.) Yes he holds back against Shadow to a degree but there's advantages that Shadow has over Sonic(strength, overall power and versatlity) and advantages Sonic has against Shadow(skill and speed) which is why the clash heads more than Sonic and Knuckles do. Along with the fact that Sega puts more emphasize on their rivalry then they do with Knuckles. Actually knuckles was bluffing about holding back. When he first saw Emerl, the first thing on his mind was to beat the crap out of him. He basically thought he was the enemy https://youtu.be/Qv0zYwKyvG0?t=1712 28:33-31:88 Emerl takes him the first round and surprises knuckles, and at 35:10 admits he lost to him. So i don't know what you mean holding back. Knuckles has consistently lost against him. Shadow and Sonic being the only real matches for him at his greatest.

As for Shad stalemating Silver, they both used Chaos control.. not impressive or much of a fight. Mephiles is implied powerful, but that power is never shown, after all iblis is the part that holds the cunning, not mephiles. He's pretty powerful, yes, but nothing to ride home about. Dude (Mephiles) collapsed from bullet shots, try that against Chaos 6, who is a stronger opponent.

When and where? You mean after their drawn out fight? We only seen them use chaos control after the fight. And Mephiles solo'd shadow and his entire team and forced Shadow at one point to take off his rings in order to boost his power.

I never tried to argued whether it moved the plot or not, that has 0 to do with the fact that the feat is Canon (supported by the cutscene), and that it is impressive as heck. I'm not saying Knuckles>Super Sonic, never stated that. I'm saying Knuckles is known to be crazy strong and if he got the jump on sonic it's not hard to see Knuckles pulling this feat and running away. The man can summon lava and split hydrogen atoms after all. Got a problem with him doing it? Take it up with sega my peer.

So basically "PIS is okay, if you have a probably with it go complain to the writers." That's pretty much it. And the summoning of lava and the atom feat were yeeears after Sonic 3.

Prove he can't. Seriously what kind of question is that?? The man can sense Chaos energy build up and has before, you can't lose a sense just because you're fighting, that's like losing your sight. Foolishness. I have brought forth facts of his ability (https://youtu.be/XB1PO0ch3JI ,3:20-3:35) they speak for themselves. Refute the facts. Also, so he can control lava and earth, but not call a Volcano ?. Really. "IF anything Knuckles can manipulate flames or lava." So where is the lava coming from? Face it, it's obviously an mini eruption.

The burden of proof falls on you because never once in the series, not even shadow nor any chaos energy user has used the ability to sense chaos energy in combat......heck not even in the comics which basically amps all the characters to hell has shown such a technique. You are literally pulling it out of nowhere. Funny you show that because that wasn't a combat situation. He didn't even know where it was coming from until it did. Plus Shadow's teleportation is way faster than that and can be used in conjunction with his attacks.

"Pretty much the bold sums up what it actually is. I would say more but i covered everything in that regard. At this point you just want it to be a thing for the sake of it being a thing."

No, I just want to let you know Shadow most likely takes an L regardless, we're just debating the how. Glad you can admit the form is legit though ?.

Not admitting anything, you won't drop it, might as well debate it.

Shadow is never stated to be proficient in any martial art, mostly relying on teleportation to get the jump on his enemies. Not saying is isn't Proficient in H2h Combat, but 1. Nocturnus Clan>>>> G.U.N. soldiers, and 2. Tails respects Knuckles fighting Prowess enough to be concerned, Knuckles ties h2h with Sonic (Sonic Adventure2, their battle shows 2 different sides, so a draw), and again, warrior raised for fighting (Sonic heroes states he is a Martial artist, as does SA2 in his descriptions) takes priority over fighter with assumed training. Emphasis on assumed.

That's nowhere even close to being true, Shadow is a speedster just like Sonic is, saying he relies heavily on teleportation is ridiculous considering he has all of Sonic's moves but more..... You mentioned the Nocturnus Clan as if everyone else wasn't fighting them.......Tails, Sonic, Omega, Big(i think he was in Chronicles i don't remember) Rouge, etc. The fighter with assumed training he has used said assumed training to be a more consistent rival for Sonic for years, fought against the likes of Metal Sonic, and clones designed to be superior to him, an army of clones armed to the teeth with weapons with abilities like his,(strength, speed etc.) Black Doom and his several alien cohorts, and so on and so forth. By the way he took gun training just like Rouge did and we already know how impressive she is(impressive enough to actually be a consistent rival for Knuckles)

Shadow can indeed use Chaos Control for those things, true!! But, and this ties in to some of the things you wanted to know with Knuckles and Geokinesis. He uses it to heal himself (which, might I add, is superior to Chaos control), to summon meteors, to shake the earth with a punch, he uses it to defend with, and lastly, it aids in sensing where the enemy is when coming for a deadly uppercut (sonic battle, major eruption).

The meteors are unimpressive, the only thing worth noting is the

The size change is inconsistent yes, you're right, but they didn't put it in there for giggles, apparently they believe it can shrink, that's the intention. Again thank our dear friends at Sega for this, but it's obvious this was intentional

https://youtu.be/6I1vDD6WDgM 10:20-10:30 (another example of masters emerald shrinking).

where did it shrink? It stayed the same exact size throughout the entire clip. It's not as if we saw it physically regress in size in the clip. It's just another case of size inconsistency. Sega never made a statement and they never mentioned within the games.

Shadow has many ways to possibly win this fight, as does Knuckles. I'm just one of those crazy guys who thinks the old rival can beat the new one. This is a good fight either way.

Meh. Knuckles is basically piccolo while Shadow is Vegeta. The series has consistently put emphasis on Shadow being one of Sonic's most impressive rivals. Plus on top of being way faster, he has many of the abilities Sonic has, and could easily beat him in the same ways that Sonic does but worse..... Light Speed Attack, Teleportation, Homing Attack and Tornado etc.

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#187  Edited By Answerpls

So, If we talk about Archie, they already fought. Of course there were no clear winners but here is how it went. There is a black arm called Eclipse. It is the ultimate counter against Shadow. He even has a transformation where he becomes a lot stronger. So Shadow fought against him and won using Master Emeralds power. Of course he was pretty tired.

After just about a few minutes, he decided that the Master Emerald should be removed to a G.U.N. facility and the island would likely float as the whole world was shattered in flying pieces.

So Knuckles fights Shadow. The battle doesn't end until the Master Emeralds was stolen by Eclipse. Plus Shadow's mind was pretty messed up by Eclipse. Knuckles was giving it all he got while Shadow didn't even remove his inhibitor rings.

I dont think we even need to discuss about Sonic X.

The only thing left is the game universe.

This one is pretty challenging. Both were rivals of Sonic.

First of all, Shadow IS almost as fast as Sonic. There is no big speed difference. He is the only character (as far as I know) who is capable to challenge Sonic's speed (Other than robots). Knuckles surely isn't nearly as fast as Sonic nor Shadow but that doesn't make him slow. After all, probably all Sonic characters have super speed just they are slow compared to Sonic.

What Knuckles lacks in speed, he gets it in strength. He is super strong. A punch from him really hurts a lot. Shadow is also very strong. He does have super strength too but not nearly as much as Knuckles.

Shadow is also a very skilled fighter. He isn't the Ultimate Lifeform for nothing. He is G.U.N's top agent. He CAN use Chaos Control without an emerald but Sega didn't realize that they made him overpowered so they sad that he couldn't use Chaos Control without an emerald although he can. Shadow isn't a copy of Sonic. He doesn't copy Sonic's moves. He has his own kicks and punches. And he is stronger than Sonic too. He can lift up cars one handedly.

Knuckles is a very skilled fighter. He surely has beaten a lot of people. I would like to point out that we don't know if Knuckles is strong enough to actually beat super out of Sonic. It is theorized that he probably used the Master Emeralds power to cancel the Chaos Emeralds and hit Sonic. It is just ridicilous for Knucnles to beat Super Sonic with one punch as he is litterally invinsible. I cannot say exactly how strong Knuckles is tough as I simply dont know. Knuckles is a good fighter but it is said in Sonic Battle that he isn't too hard to beat because he is slow and if you catch him off guard, then you can make many combos. I really like Knuckles too and he is a really good fighter. I would say tied in fighting skills.

Both of them are familiar to the Chaos force. Knuckles' bond with the Chaos Force isn't similar to Shadow's tough. Knuckles can sense the Chaos energy and detect its place very good. Shadow isn't nearly as good as Knuckles in that category but that wouldnt be important in a fight. Knuckles can use Chaos energy in a fight too but it is only in the form of Thunder arrows. Which isn't much different than Chaos Spear. Shadow can use Chaos Spear, Chaos Lance (which is a stronger version of Chaos Spear), Chaos Blast, and Chaos Control. I don't think Shadow would not use Chaos Blast against Knuckles unless it is a very important topic. The same thing goes with his inhibitor rings (the golden rings on his wrists). Shadow only removed them if it is a very important situation. He wouldnt normally do it. Shadow is clearly a better fighter in the Chaos Energy category.

Now let's look at their durability. Kmuckles is really tough. Again I don't know his greatest feat about this topic but he is no ordinary guy. He is very durable. He is also very stubborn which sometimes effects his mins but mostly it is okay. Shadow is also very durable. He dived trough the deck in Atmosphere. He also has super healing, immortality and is supposedly now affeted by any illnesses. The last two would not help him in a fight tough. So he can take a punch. He is more durable than Sonic. And i say again, he isnt what Sonic calls him. He is no "faker". His fighting style is a lot more different than Sonic. Heck he is 50 years older than Sonic XD. Both of them are super arrogant and determined.

As for forms, I would say these shouldnt be allowed in the fight. Hyper Knuckles vs Super Shadow is pointless. Both of them are invisible. Nobody should win until time runs for both of them. Super Shadow is omniversal tough. He has defeated Solaris of the past. Plus Hyper Knuckles is nothing like Hyper Sonic. Hyper Knuckles is in Super form level. Shadow has many other forms too. He has Hero Shadow, Dark Shadow, and Chaos Shadow. Before you ask, Dark Shadow is no fake super form from Sonic X. I don't like Dark Super forms neither. They are just fake super forms created from the negated Chaos Emeralds. They cannot be really powerful. I like the forms but I think is too overrated. So lets get back to Shadow's forms. Hero Shadow and Dark Shadow are almost the same. Hero Shadow appears when Shadow has thoughts of Justice and rightful so and so in his mind. He is in full control of his positive Chaos abilities. This means he has full control over Chaos Control. When he is in Dark Shadow form, he has full control over negative chaos energy which means he is in full control over Chaos Blast. Shadow enters the form when he has thoughts of evil and vengeance so and so. Shadow becomes Chaos Shadow when he removes his limiter (inhibitor) rings. He has full control over Chaos Energy. I forgot to mention. Shadow can use his Chaos Powers to increase his speed, durability and strength. Shadow is also invisible in these forms but they are all time limited. I just remembered, Shadow has bullet-proof skin.

So this is all I have got. In Archie, Shadow most probably wins, It's ridiculous how strong Shadow is in Sonic X. In the Games universe, Shadow wins but then again it all depends on opinion. I would love to hear your ideas. And also I would love to hear more info about Knuckles. I like them both a lot :))))).

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Knuckles has lost to Sonic more than once. Shadow is pretty even with Sonic therefore Shadow would beat Knuckles.

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#191 takenstew22  Moderator

If this is Archie versions, Knuckles wins by feats.

Game versions, Shadow.

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Shadow should win. He is equal to Sonic.

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Shadow already owned him.

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FlashGreaterSignEveryone

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Shadow easily

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Shadow has both the hax and the speed to deal with Knuckles.

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Knuckles wins up close, Shadow stomps at distance with hax

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Knuckles has no way of winning. Shadow is faster, tougher, and has more raw power and skill in chaos and superhuman abilities via inhibitor release.

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Real talk if this fight happened in canon we know shadow would absolutely stomp.

Anyway

> don’t know nothing about Archie so I don’t care

> game shadow should win

> sonic x already beat knuckles

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#199  Edited By Wolfrazer  Online

@dmnb2wavy: They did fight in the comics, it ended in a stalemate but only because Shadow was more focused on securing the Master Emerald for GUN and he had just been through a hellish fight beforehand with Eclipse.

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#200 takenstew22  Moderator

Knuckles is my favorite but Shadow just has way better versatility and hax. Knuckles is only superior in physicals.