#101 Posted by oblivion360 (498 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: i thought he didn't get faster until he got more chaos emeralds I was talking about beginning emeral

#102 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

"I proved shadow is hypersonic, get over it."

Actually you didn't prove he was hypersonic (according to the game you brought sonic battle), I proved that was false, get over it.

"5. i proved shadow is hypersonic get over it" reference above

"6. Shadow has done the same in canon, and even beat him as well on some occasions. Stalemated? proof please, because if i recall correctly he was getting beat by people weaker than sonic....."

the quote was proof, it's all I need. and he's only been beaten by one other person, and I gave why he lost, sorry.

"7. pfft. if you say so, that doesn't change the fact that he lost to emerl right afterwards, then had a another fight with him on another occasion then fight him again when he was at full power and lost. Shadow fought emerl at full power and(wait what was the word again? stalemated.)"

ha, doesn't have to change it, as emerl is not shadow and the way that emerl won shadow can't hope to mimic, plus all of his most powerful attacks are chaos based and I gave why hat wouldn't work as well with knux.

"8. the wikia is contributed by multiple people.(like all wikias are.) so they on occasion contradict each other. do you want an example? Hypersonic speeds(since despite my entire large comment countering it apparently doesn't exist.) In sonic battle(waaaay after sonic was confirmed to be able to move at hypersonic movements) in emerl's data banks shadow was confirmed to be faster than sonic. Later on to further prove that he is hypersonic in sonic generations he is shown casually keeping up with sonic as if its a cake walk. Yet despite all this, shadow is still stated to be near super sonic speeds according to the wikia. So tell me. How is the wikia so useful, when it sometimes contradicts itself highly? Oh Oh one more thing. sonic heroes."

I just explained why it wasn't contradiction (btw there are people who monitor the information and check to see if it is factual, and they know waaaay more than you do), as he was holding back when that speed is stated, hence why they said he moved multiple times the speed of sound AFTER ultimate emerl showed up. he was only sonic speed when that was taken, hence why they noted his speed increase. sonic average speed is sonic speed, and since shadow is supersonic that's legit. so it's not wrong, you are the wikia is totally legit and until you get a flaw that can't be refuted, you can't say otherwise, thanks.

"0:26 as you can see sonic was not going at full speed, thats why he grabbed them and sped out of the rubble. Which debunks literally everything you said so far about him even possibly in the slightest being as fast as sonic. let alone faster than shadow which your precious wiki states that he casually keeps up with sonic, and he has reached speeds close to the ones sonic goes up to which is why he keeps up with sonic in the first place.

they were in shock, and in case you didn't notice tails (who is known to be almost as fast as sonic, on the same level as shadow, supersonic) was under there too, and he could have easily escaped, hence why I said shock. so wrong, it doesn't debunk anything as tails was under there too and tails is supersonic speed, it just proves they were shocked. I never stated he was faster than shadow, don't lie. I said he was fast enough to evade attacks and not be speed blitzed.

"thats such an excuse its not even funny. They weren't in shock about anything, sonic suddenly grabbed them and got them out of there before the rubble crushed them so still no, there is no proof that they could have gotten out of there themselves, again thats just you spouting baseless speculations. Oh oh and your precious wikia states this: "Like most other character in the series, Knuckles is shown to be very fast on his feet, being able to run at remarkable, near-superhuman speeds, though he still not quite as fast as Sonic, Tails or Shadow"

it's not an excuse, it's an explanation, a logical one at that. there is proof that he was able to get out of there, he's superhumanly fast. not to mention he could just punch it, why didn't he do that? shock :-/ and yeah, I never said he was as fast as shadow, i'm saying he's fast enough not to be speed blitzed (it's what I said from the very first post), and that part holds true.

By the way, nearly every incarnation of spiderman has been stated to move at super human speeds as well, but the fastest i recall spiderman can run is 130-200 miles which is not even close to the sound barrier. Which means your precious wiki contradicts something. in the sonic advance series, the sonic characters were shown to break the sound barrier. Sonic and tails being the fastest cream and amy (based on gameplay is faster than knuckles)

And superhuman means greater than humanly possible (which varies from sub-sonic to lightspeed), so being supersonic and being called superhuman are correct. so my "precious wikia" still stands correct. and in sonic advance did it say they broke the sound barrier (even though if it does it just helps me even more)?

9.*facepalm* I asked you for visual proof of him utilizing it in combat properly, (in the case he could do it, the proof you "showed" me was weak, so im still not convinced either way.) not speculation on how he does it. For example. spiderman when he first gained his powers he had an ability called the spider-sense, before it developed more usefully, he could only tell the direction of the danger, therefore making it impossible to tell what threat he has to face or how fast or big it is. Now his spider-sense is so powerful after developing/being trained, its sort of like a freaking precognition ability. Thats what i mean by proper utilization, having an abilitiy does not mean squat if you cannot properly utilize it. Chaos magic is not a chaos energy technique so how does he sense it -.- "This usage of Chaos Control creates an area of distorted space in front of the user in the form of a violet, purple and white spacial rift that knocks the opponents into the air." how does knuckles sense and negate distorted space? please please tell me how is that logically possible for knuckles let alone any sonic character??? you don't sense space. Thats like saying i can smell a black hole! He can also distort space around his fist to increase his striking strength..... Emerl fought sonic and shadow by himself near the end of the game and won, that must have meant that sonic was using his full speed, and do you have proof that sonic holds back his speed when fighting? "While most games places Sonic and Shadow as equals in speed, character profiles in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) and Sonic Rivals claim that Sonic is faster. Also, in Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood, Shadow personally admitted that he was not faster than Sonic. While it is unknown how fast Shadow actually is without using his Hover Shoes, it has been hinted that Shadow can still move at speeds rivaling that of Sonic's, but he simply prefers not to" this is another statement that contradicts the other ones of him only being "super sonic"

well there aren't any feats of his fighting in the games (hence why I gave PROOF of his fighting ability, which is more than enough) and as far as it being weak, it doesn't matter, it's factual and it's not speculation. Never heard of chaos magic being used by shadow, and last time I checked chaos control was energy based (one which charges chaos energy), and knuckles can sense it so even if he cant run he can use volcanic dunk. he can sense the energy being used to manipulate that space, and he did so in sonic battle 2 adventure when he sensed sonic coming (after he teleported no less), so he can do it to shad. and yes I have proof he stopped holding back (during that instance at least), he stated it, play the game and here's proof from the wikia "Seeing the overwhelming strength of Ultimate Emerl, Sonic decided to fight at full strength and defeated the Gizoid." so he was holding back when they were equal.

Hilarious, do you have any proof that they "check if its legit" like i said it contradicts each other, one part of the wiki says knuckles is moving at near superhuman speeds which is not that fast,(thats basically peak human) while another page says he runs at super sonic speeds. Amy wasn't going full speed? Wow. Now you are pulling things out your ass. Where the hell did you get that from? Full tilt means going all out...... Whether he was confirmed to be at hypersonic speeds before or after, that doesn't change the fact that the wiki said they were most of the time equal in speeds....... except in sonic brotherhood..... what about that? Please explain that.

You know what, I can't say that the wikia is perfect, and I recant that it is never wrong, however most of it is legit. and why amy be going all out and big still be behind her, that's beyond retarded. and they confirmed that he was equal to sonic WHEN HOLDING BACK, not all throughout the game, there was clearly a difference between pre holding back, and post holding back, get that in your head. and they stopped being equal in speed during sonic 2006 actually. again he is equal to sonic holding back, but can't match his full speed as shown in sonic battle.

10. Alright if knuckles fighting style is truly like that, do you have any visual evidence to support that? Because we can easily do a comparison of their fighting styles right now..... You know what? do you have any visual evidence to support half of your statements that were only backed up on speculation?(by the way anything you say about sonic beating emerl is irrelevant right now due to the fact that knuckles lost to him while shadow stalemated him twice.(under the same conditions, emerl had the advantage of variety, and surprise, since emerl copying the techniques of others and turning them into new fighting style makes him unpredicatable) High level geokinesis user? oh please, the "meteor" he is spawning is the same exact size as the rock he picks up from the ground..... You wanna see high level geokinesis in fiction? here is a example.

ROFL you truly think knuckles summoning a small boulder is high level geokinesis? meteors rocks.... or calling forth meteor-like rocks from above to strike his opponents, which is described as "supernatural control of earth"."

I proved evidence of his fighting skills, and it's apparent that it matches. he has geokinesis, enough to summon rocks from the sky, and that meteor is 100's of miles away, that is a great feat. he can use it to protect him too, so yeah he's good.

"my thoughts exactly" Oh really? you have not provided any evidence to your claims, you lack credibility since you heavily rely on a wiki which is contributed by multiple people so it tends to contradict itself on occasion,(and the people who provide the "facts" are no different from you and i so its not 100 percent reliable like you are making it seem, you constantly make random claims without proof, you ignored argumentations that debunks yours and make some random bull shitty excuse..... "my thoughts exactly" hilarious. I have experience in speech and debate class, one of the main rules in speech in debate is to actually make your self seem credible, not just yourself but your argumentation as well, or you will just like some douche trying to win people over with something everyone clearly knows is straight up bullshit.(excuse my language moderators) You have proven nothing, and everything you are stating is reliant on a non-official source which is basically fans just like us putting whatever info they know, not info they THINK they know like you with knuckles ability to negate chaos based attacks.

actually i have provided more than enough evidence and ther are quotes as well as games backing up my claims, they are located in my arguement, just read. and bull ***** excuse, it's called a counter, and you'd have to be pretty dull not to get it. my arguement is credible, it's actually on another level compared to yours. i have proven that knuckles can sense/ negate that energy via sab2 that's not what they think, that's what's known, that's a fact. and he negated the chaos emeralds power on sab2, so that's a fact too. what have you proven?

Sonic sega all stars is not canon. at all. Plus by that logic, sonic can create ring shields, tails can create mini planes out of thin air that can fly around him and protect him, and amy can harm her opponents by thinking of freaking love, and etc. and etc.

you haven't played the game, have you? Sonic's special ability is super sonic.... not a ring shield. and he summoned the plane, and amy uses her hammer, not love. they mention it in the wikia, and that summoning out of no where, its called a mechanic, the concept is the same though.

That was blunt? You are ignoring the fact that he is falling at high speeds towards the ground from space in a weakened state, blunt or not, i highly doubt some spikes are going to make a difference.......

that is an impressive feat of durability, blunt durability. knuckles has piercing damage (ex red hulk has high blunt force durability tanking punches from thor, but could be pierced my a knife of conventional material) behind 100 tons of force, so it'll penetrate.

Ok, lets humor the idea of knuckles sensing "chaos energy" it is still up to him to dodge whatever threat comes at him, knuckles has shown no reaction time feats except dodging bullets and possibly keeping up with sonic. light speed attack is when shadow/sonic charge then attack their targets at light speed. Ok lets continue to humor your theory, chaos blast is a giant explosion. the radius is large as well, how is he dodging? he does not have precog. next chaos control, chaos control freezes time, so knuckles won't be reacting to nothing or negating anything since he will be frozen in time, Chaos control is basically speed incarnate, knuckles speed will be zero when he is frozen. Knuckles would have no way to defend. Chaos magic, and chaos spear, Chaos spear can home on its targets, so say knuckles tries to dodge it, shadow can alter its direction. Chaos magic is a technique using chaos control to create distorted space, you cannot sense space, so it will hit without fail.....

"Ok, lets humor the idea of knuckles sensing "chaos energy" it is still up to him to dodge whatever threat comes at him, knuckles has shown no reaction time feats except dodging bullets and possibly keeping up with sonic." both are credible feats."light speed attack is when shadow/sonic charge then attack their targets at light speed." I know the attack, I know it also has to be charged (which is based on game mechanic, but much like with powerflash and emerald power, it's all we have), in which knuckles could use volcanic dunk to make himself untouchable. "Ok lets continue to humor your theory, chaos blast is a giant explosion. the radius is large as well, how is he dodging? he does not have precog." he's dodging chaos blast via digging, and since he can sense it before hand he can counter after it's done. and in a way he does have precog. "next chaos control, chaos control freezes time, so knuckles won't be reacting to nothing or negating anything since he will be frozen in time, Chaos control is basically speed incarnate, knuckles speed will be zero when he is frozen. Knuckles would have no way to defend." again chaos energy has to be charged, and knuckles could use volcanic dunk to make himself untouchable. "Chaos magic, and chaos spear, Chaos spear can home on its targets, so say knuckles tries to dodge it, shadow can alter its direction. Chaos magic is a technique using chaos control to create distorted space, you cannot sense space, so it will hit without fail....."knuckles could counter chaos spear with thunder arrow and I never heard of chaos magic, show proof of shad using it.

#103 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

you know what, since you all clearly can't handle the complex knowledge i'm dropping on you, i'll make this plain and simple, knuckles wins via hyper knuckles (game version). He wins because he is on a completely different level than super shadow (spees wise too, since knuckles with a super shield is lightspeed (hence him using lightspeed attack), and the only difference between the two forms is that one gets chaos energy himself and the other gets it form someone else (chaos energy is chaos energy, and adapts to the user, hence why he can use his specialized attacks) so super knuckles is lightspeed, hyper knux is an enhanced version of him, which means he's FTL. super shad could use hero shad or dark shad, but both are only temporary, so sooner or later he will get tired and fall to hyper knux. even if he removes his inhibs (which we dont know would work as its description is vague and it enhances his connection with the chaos energy, and super forms are already accessing that first level of energy, i dont think it'd do much). since hypersonic is the most powerful form sonic has and hyperknux is even more durable, it's hard to believe even dark super shad could bring him down. hyper knux for the win.

#104 Edited by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

"I proved shadow is hypersonic, get over it."

Actually you didn't prove he was hypersonic (according to the game you brought sonic battle), I proved that was false, get over it.

"5. i proved shadow is hypersonic get over it" reference above

"6. Shadow has done the same in canon, and even beat him as well on some occasions. Stalemated? proof please, because if i recall correctly he was getting beat by people weaker than sonic....."

the quote was proof, it's all I need. and he's only been beaten by one other person, and I gave why he lost, sorry.

"7. pfft. if you say so, that doesn't change the fact that he lost to emerl right afterwards, then had a another fight with him on another occasion then fight him again when he was at full power and lost. Shadow fought emerl at full power and(wait what was the word again? stalemated.)"

ha, doesn't have to change it, as emerl is not shadow and the way that emerl won shadow can't hope to mimic, plus all of his most powerful attacks are chaos based and I gave why hat wouldn't work as well with knux.

"8. the wikia is contributed by multiple people.(like all wikias are.) so they on occasion contradict each other. do you want an example? Hypersonic speeds(since despite my entire large comment countering it apparently doesn't exist.) In sonic battle(waaaay after sonic was confirmed to be able to move at hypersonic movements) in emerl's data banks shadow was confirmed to be faster than sonic. Later on to further prove that he is hypersonic in sonic generations he is shown casually keeping up with sonic as if its a cake walk. Yet despite all this, shadow is still stated to be near super sonic speeds according to the wikia. So tell me. How is the wikia so useful, when it sometimes contradicts itself highly? Oh Oh one more thing. sonic heroes."

I just explained why it wasn't contradiction (btw there are people who monitor the information and check to see if it is factual, and they know waaaay more than you do), as he was holding back when that speed is stated, hence why they said he moved multiple times the speed of sound AFTER ultimate emerl showed up. he was only sonic speed when that was taken, hence why they noted his speed increase. sonic average speed is sonic speed, and since shadow is supersonic that's legit. so it's not wrong, you are the wikia is totally legit and until you get a flaw that can't be refuted, you can't say otherwise, thanks.

"0:26 as you can see sonic was not going at full speed, thats why he grabbed them and sped out of the rubble. Which debunks literally everything you said so far about him even possibly in the slightest being as fast as sonic. let alone faster than shadow which your precious wiki states that he casually keeps up with sonic, and he has reached speeds close to the ones sonic goes up to which is why he keeps up with sonic in the first place.

they were in shock, and in case you didn't notice tails (who is known to be almost as fast as sonic, on the same level as shadow, supersonic) was under there too, and he could have easily escaped, hence why I said shock. so wrong, it doesn't debunk anything as tails was under there too and tails is supersonic speed, it just proves they were shocked. I never stated he was faster than shadow, don't lie. I said he was fast enough to evade attacks and not be speed blitzed.

"thats such an excuse its not even funny. They weren't in shock about anything, sonic suddenly grabbed them and got them out of there before the rubble crushed them so still no, there is no proof that they could have gotten out of there themselves, again thats just you spouting baseless speculations. Oh oh and your precious wikia states this: "Like most other character in the series, Knuckles is shown to be very fast on his feet, being able to run at remarkable, near-superhuman speeds, though he still not quite as fast as Sonic, Tails or Shadow"

it's not an excuse, it's an explanation, a logical one at that. there is proof that he was able to get out of there, he's superhumanly fast. not to mention he could just punch it, why didn't he do that? shock :-/ and yeah, I never said he was as fast as shadow, i'm saying he's fast enough not to be speed blitzed (it's what I said from the very first post), and that part holds true.

By the way, nearly every incarnation of spiderman has been stated to move at super human speeds as well, but the fastest i recall spiderman can run is 130-200 miles which is not even close to the sound barrier. Which means your precious wiki contradicts something. in the sonic advance series, the sonic characters were shown to break the sound barrier. Sonic and tails being the fastest cream and amy (based on gameplay is faster than knuckles)

And superhuman means greater than humanly possible (which varies from sub-sonic to lightspeed), so being supersonic and being called superhuman are correct. so my "precious wikia" still stands correct. and in sonic advance did it say they broke the sound barrier (even though if it does it just helps me even more)?

9.*facepalm* I asked you for visual proof of him utilizing it in combat properly, (in the case he could do it, the proof you "showed" me was weak, so im still not convinced either way.) not speculation on how he does it. For example. spiderman when he first gained his powers he had an ability called the spider-sense, before it developed more usefully, he could only tell the direction of the danger, therefore making it impossible to tell what threat he has to face or how fast or big it is. Now his spider-sense is so powerful after developing/being trained, its sort of like a freaking precognition ability. Thats what i mean by proper utilization, having an abilitiy does not mean squat if you cannot properly utilize it. Chaos magic is not a chaos energy technique so how does he sense it -.- "This usage of Chaos Control creates an area of distorted space in front of the user in the form of a violet, purple and white spacial rift that knocks the opponents into the air." how does knuckles sense and negate distorted space? please please tell me how is that logically possible for knuckles let alone any sonic character??? you don't sense space. Thats like saying i can smell a black hole! He can also distort space around his fist to increase his striking strength..... Emerl fought sonic and shadow by himself near the end of the game and won, that must have meant that sonic was using his full speed, and do you have proof that sonic holds back his speed when fighting? "While most games places Sonic and Shadow as equals in speed, character profiles in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) and Sonic Rivals claim that Sonic is faster. Also, in Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood, Shadow personally admitted that he was not faster than Sonic. While it is unknown how fast Shadow actually is without using his Hover Shoes, it has been hinted that Shadow can still move at speeds rivaling that of Sonic's, but he simply prefers not to" this is another statement that contradicts the other ones of him only being "super sonic"

well there aren't any feats of his fighting in the games (hence why I gave PROOF of his fighting ability, which is more than enough) and as far as it being weak, it doesn't matter, it's factual and it's not speculation. Never heard of chaos magic being used by shadow, and last time I checked chaos control was energy based (one which charges chaos energy), and knuckles can sense it so even if he cant run he can use volcanic dunk. he can sense the energy being used to manipulate that space, and he did so in sonic battle 2 adventure when he sensed sonic coming (after he teleported no less), so he can do it to shad. and yes I have proof he stopped holding back (during that instance at least), he stated it, play the game and here's proof from the wikia "Seeing the overwhelming strength of Ultimate Emerl, Sonic decided to fight at full strength and defeated the Gizoid." so he was holding back when they were equal.

Hilarious, do you have any proof that they "check if its legit" like i said it contradicts each other, one part of the wiki says knuckles is moving at near superhuman speeds which is not that fast,(thats basically peak human) while another page says he runs at super sonic speeds. Amy wasn't going full speed? Wow. Now you are pulling things out your ass. Where the hell did you get that from? Full tilt means going all out...... Whether he was confirmed to be at hypersonic speeds before or after, that doesn't change the fact that the wiki said they were most of the time equal in speeds....... except in sonic brotherhood..... what about that? Please explain that.

10. Alright if knuckles fighting style is truly like that, do you have any visual evidence to support that? Because we can easily do a comparison of their fighting styles right now..... You know what? do you have any visual evidence to support half of your statements that were only backed up on speculation?(by the way anything you say about sonic beating emerl is irrelevant right now due to the fact that knuckles lost to him while shadow stalemated him twice.(under the same conditions, emerl had the advantage of variety, and surprise, since emerl copying the techniques of others and turning them into new fighting style makes him unpredicatable) High level geokinesis user? oh please, the "meteor" he is spawning is the same exact size as the rock he picks up from the ground..... You wanna see high level geokinesis in fiction? here is a example.

ROFL you truly think knuckles summoning a small boulder is high level geokinesis? meteors rocks.... or calling forth meteor-like rocks from above to strike his opponents, which is described as "supernatural control of earth"."

"my thoughts exactly" Oh really? you have not provided any evidence to your claims, you lack credibility since you heavily rely on a wiki which is contributed by multiple people so it tends to contradict itself on occasion,(and the people who provide the "facts" are no different from you and i so its not 100 percent reliable like you are making it seem, you constantly make random claims without proof, you ignored argumentations that debunks yours and make some random bull shitty excuse..... "my thoughts exactly" hilarious. I have experience in speech and debate class, one of the main rules in speech in debate is to actually make your self seem credible, not just yourself but your argumentation as well, or you will just like some douche trying to win people over with something everyone clearly knows is straight up bullshit.(excuse my language moderators) You have proven nothing, and everything you are stating is reliant on a non-official source which is basically fans just like us putting whatever info they know, not info they THINK they know like you with knuckles ability to negate chaos based attacks.

actually i have provided more than enough evidence and ther are quotes as well as games backing up my claims, they are located in my arguement, just read. and bull ***** excuse, it's called a counter, and you'd have to be pretty dull not to get it. my arguement is credible, it's actually on another level compared to yours. i have proven that knuckles can sense/ negate that energy via sab2, what have you proven?

Sonic sega all stars is not canon. at all. Plus by that logic, sonic can create ring shields, tails can create mini planes out of thin air that can fly around him and protect him, and amy can harm her opponents by thinking of freaking love, and etc. and etc. they mention it in the wikia, and that summoning out of no where, its called a mechanic, the concept is the same though.

That was blunt? You are ignoring the fact that he is falling at high speeds towards the ground from space in a weakened state, blunt or not, i highly doubt some spikes are going to make a difference.......

that is an impressive feat of durability, blunt durability. knuckles has piercing damage (ex red hulk) behind 100 tons of force, so it'll penetrate

Ok, lets humor the idea of knuckles sensing "chaos energy" it is still up to him to dodge whatever threat comes at him, knuckles has shown no reaction time feats except dodging bullets and possibly keeping up with sonic. light speed attack is when shadow/sonic charge then attack their targets at light speed. Ok lets continue to humor your theory, chaos blast is a giant explosion. the radius is large as well, how is he dodging? he does not have precog. next chaos control, chaos control freezes time, so knuckles won't be reacting to nothing or negating anything since he will be frozen in time, Chaos control is basically speed incarnate, knuckles speed will be zero when he is frozen. Knuckles would have no way to defend. Chaos magic, and chaos spear, Chaos spear can home on its targets, so say knuckles tries to dodge it, shadow can alter its direction. Chaos magic is a technique using chaos control to create distorted space, you cannot sense space, so it will hit without fail..... i'm not going to finish the rest, i'm in a rush and I've proven the point, i'll finish this later.

Ok im back, first off on the hypersonic statement.

I debunked it by not only showing sonic battle as a source i debunked your statement of knuckles being around shadows level of speed from sonic heroes, i also debunked it by showing you the video of shadow casually being neck in neck with sonic in a race/battle. (which was very recent, so shadow admitting that he is slower than sonic is irrelevant especially considering how old brother hood is in comparison to the newer games. Plus sonic o6 is not canon, at the end of the game the timeline was erased from the main story of the sonic universe so all feats from there is irrelevant.)

Knuckles being beaten by one other person? thats bullshit, he lost in a fight to several sonic characters......Shadow only lost a legit fight against sonic and lost to emerl once(who he not only fought him to the point where he was panting when they first fought, he later stalemated him which is a feat that knuckles never shown in sonic battle despite having the same disadvantages shadow had against him which was emerl's variety, and unpredictability.) which is reasonable considering he one of the strongest characters in the series if not most powerful.

You explained why it wasn't a contradiction while me and oblivion countered that several times.

They were not in shock at all, sonic just grabbed them while they were running and ran out of the rubble thats all that happened...... if they could have escaped then sonic wouldn't have to grab them, so stop making up excuses and theories that cannot apply to the situation.

it said near superhuman not superman, which means knuckles should not be as fast as sound, by that logic they would have called sonic's speeds near-superhuman as well, the same goes for shadow and virtually every sonic character with a level of speed.

Sonic beating ultimate emerl holds no relevance to the fact that emerl beated knuckles without much effort while he had to go all out fighting shadow. Its factual? ok by that logic i can say sonic could do the same thing since he is the embodiment of chaos, but he didn't use the powers you are giving knuckles against shadow..... It is speculation unless you show me visual evidence of him doing this. In fact show me knuckles sensing chaos energy the way you described it. Chaos magic is in the wiki and its in sonic battle, like i said you cannot sense a distortion in space, thats like saying you can smell black holes. He didn't sense space when sonic teleported, he sensed the energy being used to teleport in the first place.

Your argumentation more credible than mine? i used canon facts, your ENTIRE ARGUMENTATION is reliant on a single sonic wikia, that is contributed by hundreds of users, meaning the information can vary. Not only is it reliant on that, you ignored my argumentation of shadow being hypersonic, you are using speculation to decide how knuckles fights, and his powers, and you are making theories up that i have continued to have debunked. I proven everything you tried to convince me and oblivion with wrong. heck even oblivion is debunking your statements but you keep coming back with BS excuses and theories.

Unless you have proof that knuckles striking strength is as good as his physical strength and that his striking feats are more powerful than falling through that atmosphere and hitting hard on the earth then maybe, but if not then no, if you are fighting someone with high durability, and you use a regular knife on them, what do you think would happen? it would break.

Now are you going to reply to the paragraphs you obviously skipped? i skipped one because it wasn't relevant. which was this:

"ha, doesn't have to change it, as emerl is not shadow and the way that emerl won shadow can't hope to mimic, plus all of his most powerful attacks are chaos based and I gave why hat wouldn't work as well with knux."

#105 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Lol sure. That is alot of stuff (plus i'm pretty lazy myself and if you did respond to it i wouldn't mind at all). You can focus on hyper knuckles for now.

#106 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@oblivion360:

"1. read what your saying does it really make sense. if the game states that sonic can run 7 times the speed of sound (mach 7) and then says that shadow can run faster than sonic that means he's at least 7 times the speed of sound which is hypersonic. the fact that you need to come up with a theory (thats nothing but made up crap and speculation, are you forgetting that shadow is one of the few people sonic takes seriously going so far as to try and kill each other) to justify the wiki should tell you something."

No it doesn't it means that shadow can beat sonic when he is holding back going sonic speed, meaning shadow is supersonic, which he is. the fact that you're ignoring that sonic was holding back (he said it himself, how can you deny his words, and the fact the wikia says he traveled multiple times his normal speed (which is sonic or mach 1) only backs that up. And considering that people who know way more than you about sonic in general (one of those people being me) say he is that speed and explain why, that's even more shame on you. Heck, you haven't refuted my arguement yet, you just keep say it's not true, not acceptable. i'd rather have a logical theory than a refutable lie.

"and just in case you don't know here is a list of mach speeds subsonic speeds= mach 0.8 transonic speed= mach 0.8 - mach 1.2 supersonic speeds= mach 1.2 - mach 5 hypersonic speeds mach 5 - mach 10 anything higher is hypersonic+

already knew that."

"2. you shouldn't try to pass off a theory as fact . and wait are you trying to say emerl is faster than shadow. i'd really like to know where you rank certain characters in speed?"

My theory is plausible and has yet to be refuted, something that can't be said about yours. and yes i am saying ultimate emerl is faster than shadow, it's why only sonic could fight him. unless shadow used chaos control, he would be majorly speedblitzed. shadow=supersonic speeds, U. emerl multiple times the speed of sound, so yeah based on the games and facts, ultimate emerl is faster

"3. umm I wasn't talking about gameplay. i was talking about the opening intro." you mentioned tilt so.....

"4. "and shadow is good (him, shadow, and blaze are the closest things to martial artists) , but not martial artist good. knuckles can take him (he's dealt with martial artist before)" you posted this so I showed you that shadow is not a combatant to be messed with. and so what if tails said that. since knuckles was created sonic always beats him even in a straight up fist fight. he got beat by rouge if I remember correctly

i get you, and shadow is a fierce combatant, i never said he wasn't. i simply said knuckles could take him, and tails has seen sonic and shadow fight so for him to say that speaks highly of his skils. and when did he get beaten by rouge, ever O_o?"

"5.you know you can beat metal overlord without switching out of sonic right their was no cut scene of them attacking with their abilities. have you played sonic & knuckles the only game where the hyper transformation happened cause the only way to transform was by getting the super emeralds. first let me ask you if you know what standard gear is. standard gear are items that character has most if not all the time batarangs are standard gear for batman web shooters are standard gear for spiderman why because when you pick up a batman or spiderman comic the chances of them using or having those items on their person is nearly 100% now compare that to knuckles. second you should also no that the sonic & sega all-stars is non canon right it has nothing to do with the sonicverse. you should have realized when characters from super monkey ball and virtue fighter were in it. "Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit" please provide link (i wasn't going to argue about this but its my fault for bringing it up) its probably from a wiki anyway. if he does while they'er fighting than knuckles won't have time to defend cause shadow is faster than knuckles."

yeah, the same can be accomplished with knuckles, and the gameplay is what we have to go on as far as their attacks (plus it states it on the wikia "A large bubble-like shield, powered by rings, that grants the wielder super transformed abilities, attributes and skills." under super shields", gameplay isn't the only source). one, i know what standard gear is, if i didn't i wouldn't bother coming to comicvine. The M.E. is almost always involved in knux's story, it's standard gear. and no it is not canon (of course i knew that), but the powers were based on abilities that the characters can do . and here's the powerflash quote "

Moves and techniques

and here's the link http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Knuckles_the_Echidna. and yes he's faster, but shadow wont know what he's trying to do until its too late.

"Yeah, i get your point, that is a problem... however his feats suggest he is supersonic, ex the afterimages in sonic advance" on the wiki it says that knuckles is NEAR-SUPERHUMAN SPEEDbut based of feats from the game you say knuckles is at least the speed of sound so the wiki must be wrong about knuckles speed but if the wiki is wrong about knuckles it might be wrong about other stuff as well thus the wiki is unreliable. and while i'm at it you keep bringing up sonic and knuckles stalemating 7 times which games did this happen in again because knuckles was always sonic's punching bag the only time i'd say they stalemated was in sonic adventure when sonic didn't want to fight.

the near superhuman speed could be interpreted differently, maybe near a certain level of super human speed, it's pretty vague so i wouldn't argue that. and i gave the quote where he stalemated sonic multiple times, it's what i'm going off of.

"the wikia is not made by anyone with authority over the sonicverse it's made by random fans with no more insight than you or me they make mistakes like everybody else. ignoring feats from the actual game and simply going by what another person wrote is no way to win an argument in fact you lose credibility that way. so calling the wiki fact is not the way to win."

i'm not ignoring feats, i'm correcting your perspective of them, because you don't get it. And i call it fact based on the games, i match what the wikia's statements based on what i've seen, i don't follow blindly (however i shouldn't have said it was all factual, and i apologize for that). i go off feats.

#107 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: i thought he didn't get faster until he got more chaos emeralds I was talking about beginning emeral

Yeah but the cards he gets are random, its highly assumable he got some data cards regarding sonic's speed during the fight between sonic and shadow. But the funny thing is, knuckles got beat by beginning emerl who had very few of sonic's moves, and didn't have the strength and the durability he had in later stories.

#108 Posted by oblivion360 (498 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman:

"No it doesn't it means that shadow can beat sonic when he is holding back going sonic speed, meaning shadow is supersonic, which he is. the fact that you're ignoring that sonic was holding back (he said it himself, how can you deny his words, and the fact the wikia says he traveled multiple times his normal speed (which is sonic or mach 1) only backs that up. And considering that people who know way more than you about sonic in general (one of those people being me) say he is that speed and explain why, that's even more shame on you. Heck, you haven't refuted my arguement yet, you just keep say it's not true, not acceptable. i'd rather have a logical theory than a refutable lie."

Dude if the game says sonic can run 7 times the speed of sound and also says shadow can run faster then shadow can at least match sonic's speed it didn't say anything about sonic holding back in fact if it did it would contradict itself because you can't be faster then someone who if they stop holding back they're faster than you. this should be commonsense for example say you have a brother and you challenge him to a race around the block when the race start you run off with full speed while your bro starts walking leisurely with his phone playing temple run until half way through the race he decides take the race seriously and completely out runs and beats you. are you going to say that your faster than him as long as he doesn't try would you consider yourself faster if he let you win. your theory is just speculation and assumptions i wonder who's lying.

"My theory is plausible and has yet to be refuted, something that can't be said about yours. and yes i am saying ultimate emerl is faster than shadow, it's why only sonic could fight him. unless shadow used chaos control, he would be majorly speedblitzed. shadow=supersonic speeds, U. emerl multiple times the speed of sound, so yeah based on the games and facts, ultimate emerl is faster"

I don't need a theory, don't need to make things up. and dude I wasn't talking about ultimate emerl knuckles never fought ultimate emerl. he did fight emerl in his beginning stage were knuckles lost twice according to you because "the first time was a shocker, the second he was worn down from fighting, while emerl was not."" yeah, but he's taking a beating at sonic speed," the emerl that fought knuckles wasn't as fast or faster than sonic or shadow.

"i get you, and shadow is a fierce combatant, i never said he wasn't. i simply said knuckles could take him, and tails has seen sonic and shadow fight so for him to say that speaks highly of his skils. and when did he get beaten by rouge, ever O_o?"

what does tails seeing sonic and shadow fight have to do with anything. is tails some master martial artist that can judge the skills of all the characters in the sonicverse does tails not think sonic and shadow is powerful. what makes you think knuckles can take shadow in a straight up martial arts fight. knuckles lost to sonic in a confined ring with limited space where sonic couldn't use the best of his speed in a straight up h2h in sonic the fighters and shadow is better at h2h than sonic.

my fault he did not lose to rouge it was a stalemate. in sonic adventure 2 they fought in the cutscene after they were both tired and started talking but my point stands he stalemates with rouge.

"yeah, the same can be accomplished with knuckles, and the gameplay is what we have to go on as far as their attacks (plus it states it on the wikia "A large bubble-like shield, powered by rings, that grants the wielder super transformed abilities, attributes and skills." under super shields", gameplay isn't the only source). one, i know what standard gear is, if i didn't i wouldn't bother coming to comicvine. The M.E. is almost always involved in knux's story, it's standard gear. and no it is not canon (of course i knew that), but the powers were based on abilities that the characters can do . and here's the powerflash quote "

still no proof that knuckles and tails helped in the fight and it was their energy that was being used in fact if it was their energy why didn't they go super. they were in a shield made by sonic with sonic's power so they could keep up with sonic. now then on to the master emerald batman has different suits you see them whenever he's in the batcave are they all standard gear iron man has many different armors are they standard gear as well. they're not because they don't always have them on while the master emerald is always involved in knuckles story most of the times its involved is because he didn't have it with him and took his eyes off of it so it gets stolen or broken thats not standard gear. and if you knew it wasn't canon then why did you say "and that "racing game" just proved it was standard gear, sorry."

thanks for the power flash link (even though it doesn't link to the page that you copied from) now according to the wiki the multiplayer is canon and everyone in the sonicverse can stop time because they did in one game in the multiplayer......tch dumb.

"the near superhuman speed could be interpreted differently, maybe near a certain level of super human speed, it's pretty vague so i wouldn't argue that. and i gave the quote where he stalemated sonic multiple times, it's what i'm going off of."

you know this is the complete opposite of what near-superhuman means its not vague at all it means he doesn't have super human speed if he did they would have said he did like they did for the other characters. ether the wiki is wrong about knuckles and wrong about everything else or their right and knuckles is way slower than the other characters. you say knuckles stalemated with sonic several times yet you can't bring up a single instance while i can bring up multiple times where knuckles lost sonic 3, sonic r, sonic the fighters, sonic triple trouble, sonic advance 2.

"i'm not ignoring feats, i'm correcting your perspective of them, because you don't get it. And i call it fact based on the games, i match what the wikia's statements based on what i've seen, i don't follow blindly (however i shouldn't have said it was all factual, and i apologize for that). i go off feats."

yeah no all you've done is lowball shadow and make up theories to support your lowballing. shadow has been shown multiple times to be equal to sonic in speed since his first creation and even now that its stated sonic is faster shadow is still placed only steps behind him so going off a wiki and making baseless theories makes you look biased. if the wiki isn't completely factual then non of it is factual it has no credibility.

#109 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@oblivion360:

"Dude if the game says sonic can run 7 times the speed of sound and also says shadow can run faster then shadow can at least match sonic's speed it didn't say anything about sonic holding back in fact if it did it would contradict itself because you can't be faster then someone who if they stop holding back they're faster than you. this should be commonsense for example say you have a brother and you challenge him to a race around the block when the race start you run off with full speed while your bro starts walking leisurely with his phone playing temple run until half way through the race he decides take the race seriously and completely out runs and beats you. are you going to say that your faster than him as long as he doesn't try would you consider yourself faster if he let you win. your theory is just speculation and assumptions i wonder who's lying."

The game (sonic battle i'm assuming) doesn't say he fights multiple times the speed of sound until he fights ultimate emerl, and only emerl has had that honor (that's a fact btw). You can't say he was going that speed the whole time when the character states it's time to stop holding back and goes that speed (and your little brother could claim to be faster than you, and he wouldn't be wrong, as he won but you can still know you didn't give it your all)(that's another fact). And it makes perfect sense that he is faster than him while holding back , it's not assumption that's a fact, and i gave you the proof. plus there is no one wrong, the game and i are stating the same thing, that shadow is faster, until sonic goes multiple times his regular speed. So before then it is a fact that he was holding back, point blank period. That's nothing but fact, dude.

"I don't need a theory, don't need to make things up. and dude I wasn't talking about ultimate emerl knuckles never fought ultimate emerl. he did fight emerl in his beginning stage were knuckles lost twice according to you because "the first time was a shocker, the second he was worn down from fighting, while emerl was not."" yeah, but he's taking a beating at sonic speed," the emerl that fought knuckles wasn't as fast or faster than sonic or shadow."

I don't make things up, it's called observation, and ultimate emerl was brought up because he is tied in to Sonic's speed, which even in sonic battle is far superior to shadows. and knuckle's skills allow him to fight on shadow's level (as he fought the military trained nocturnus clan, and defeated many of them), so emerl won because of other factors, such as emotion or variety, it's only logical.

"what does tails seeing sonic and shadow fight have to do with anything. is tails some master martial artist that can judge the skills of all the characters in the sonicverse does tails not think sonic and shadow is powerful. what makes you think knuckles can take shadow in a straight up martial arts fight. knuckles lost to sonic in a confined ring with limited space where sonic couldn't use the best of his speed in a straight up h2h in sonic the fighters and shadow is better at h2h than sonic."

that's precisely it, tails does realize how skilled sonic and shadow are, and it's what makes his comment so great. he realizes knux fights so great without super speed or chaos powers (something shadow realizes heavily on), and can take the same opponents sonic and shad can. And true he did lose to sonic in the confined space, shadow is not as fast as sonic and knuckles has the skills to fight shadow, I mean look at his record, nocturnus, sonic, he can take shadow.

"my fault he did not lose to rouge it was a stalemate. in sonic adventure 2 they fought in the cutscene after they were both tired and started talking but my point stands he stalemates with rouge."

yeah, that's what i was thinking, at least you owned up to it... and, he also beat the nocturnus clan (multiple military trained echidnas, also shadow is military trained, so they are about on shadow's level, if not above), so your point is invalid.

"still no proof that knuckles and tails helped in the fight and it was their energy that was being used in fact if it was their energy why didn't they go super. they were in a shield made by sonic with sonic's power so they could keep up with sonic. now then on to the master emerald batman has different suits you see them whenever he's in the batcave are they all standard gear iron man has many different armors are they standard gear as well. they're not because they don't always have them on while the master emerald is always involved in knuckles story most of the times its involved is because he didn't have it with him and took his eyes off of it so it gets stolen or broken thats not standard gear. and if you knew it wasn't canon then why did you say "and that "racing game" just proved it was standard gear, sorry."

actually, there was, they all used their abilities to defeat him, that's a fact. you don't even have to play the game to know that. and he gave them a portion of chaos energy, knux's super form occurs when one gathers all the chaos energy into themselves, if that was the case chaos boost would be a super form. and they conform to the user, the proof being that they could use their signature moves unique to them. and knuckles is always associated the M.E.(negative or positive), so he should have it. And because it shows that even in non-canon the creators let him have it.

"thanks for the power flash link (even though it doesn't link to the page that you copied from) now according to the wiki the multiplayer is canon and everyone in the sonicverse can stop time because they did in one game in the multiplayer......tch dumb."

actually it proves not all of multiplayer is canon (if that were the case all aspects would be canon, such as supersonic dying in water or falling off screen, that's a game mechanic and that's just not true), but certain aspects are, if multiplayer didn't count at all moves such as chaos boost, lightspeed attack, maximum heat attack, etc would not be considered canon, heck most of their moves wouldn't be, ***** dumb. and since we're being technically stupid it wasn't everyone in the sonic universe, cream wasn't there :-P. Use your brain.

you know this is the complete opposite of what near-superhuman means its not vague at all it means he doesn't have super human speed if he did they would have said he did like they did for the other characters. ether the wiki is wrong about knuckles and wrong about everything else or their right and knuckles is way slower than the other characters. you say knuckles stalemated with sonic several times yet you can't bring up a single instance while i can bring up multiple times where knuckles lost sonic 3, sonic r, sonic the fighters, sonic triple trouble, sonic advance 2.

Actually, it is vague, and according to feats it could mean a variety of things. he is definitely supersonic based on the cut scene from sonic heroes and the statement about it. but of course he's slower than the other characters, I never said other wise (like sonic, shadow or tails), I just said he was sonic speed and wouldn't be blitzed. And..... I don't know when he stalemated him.... i'll admit that.

"yeah no all you've done is lowball shadow and make up theories to support your lowballing. shadow has been shown multiple times to be equal to sonic in speed since his first creation and even now that its stated sonic is faster shadow is still placed only steps behind him so going off a wiki and making baseless theories makes you look biased. if the wiki isn't completely factual then non of it is factual it has no credibility."


) I never lowballed shadow, I fully understand all of his abilities (I was the one who said he was supersonic near hypersonic, and I am familiar with his abilities from chaos boost, to chaos rift, to hero/dark shadow, to chaos snap, I probably know more than you do about him), so don't act like i'm ignorant. and I am biased, but when it is backed by logic can you blame me? the wikia may not be completely factual, but when it bases a statement on a canon feat, you should listen. My "theories" hold true, you have yet to refute one. shadow is equal to the speeds of sonic, but that's vague, sonic speeds range from massively hypersonic(sonic colors, omega calculated he would surpass lightspeed) to sonic speeds (sonic battle, when he holds back), so yeah shadow can rival his speeds... when he's holding back, that's my main argument, and it has tons of credibility.

#110 Edited by Shadow6722 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I think shadow would win.

Shadow

1.shadow is the ultimate lifeform

2.He has all these forms super,dark,and hyper

3.Shadow is immortal even look it up

Knuckle's

1.strong

#111 Edited by XLR87T3 (3527 posts) - - Show Bio

Knuckles should win. He has the speed to react and counter, he's adept at martial arts, he's far more durable and stronger, and has better senses. Also, master emeralds>chaos emeralds, in case anyone tries to bring up that argument.

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#112 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: THANK YOU!!! Finally, a fellow human being with a brain! I agree he has the speed to counter and the offense (thunder arrow, deep impact, master emerald empowerment, etc.) and defense (knuckle slam (a fire barrier), volcanic dunk, and earth empowered defense, etc.) to win this fight. Not to mention he has emerald power (a shield that grants him power similar to his super shield in sonic heroes, so it's like super knuckles without the pink XD), super knuckles, and hyper knuckles (an enhanced version of super knuckles (not the archie hyperknuckles, because that is not a true hyper form, it is just named that) which comparable in performance to hyper sonic, which is sonic's most powerful form) as super form's (shadow only has super shadow, dark shadow and hero shadow, (and both are weaker than super shadow, also @shadow6722 there is no hyper shadow, just a hyper knuckles and a hyper sonic in the games) , so he is sure to win.

#113 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: You do know he is not agreeing to the flawed theories you were making right?

#114 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

Knuckles should win. He has the speed to react and counter, he's adept at martial arts, he's far more durable and stronger, and has better senses. Also, master emeralds>chaos emeralds, in case anyone tries to bring up that argument.

Knuckles loses to sonic who barely tries against him, and against emerl three to four times. Shadow won against sonic once or twice and has even beat emerl once in his semi-perfect state and when he was in his full powered form(shadow did not have his chaos emerald mind you which boosts his combat ability and powers.) fought him to a standstill something knuckles failed to do. More durability is arguable. Stronger yes but not by an entire margin. Better senses? it depends. master emeralds? there is only one though...... and plus hyper knuckles is basically super shadow's inferior since the super forms of sonic and shadow showed better feats than the feats of sonic and knuckles so we can naturally assume since hyper forms showed no feats so far since sonic 3 that they are inferior.

Sonic himself said that knuckles is predictable. So i really don't know how his skill in martial arts compares to shadow who already was skilled in combat since he was genetically created, then took training in military combat and is now a weapons expert. Shadow is single handed one of the only rivals he takes immensely seriously, silver being another one of them. Knuckles loses here.

#115 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Actually, he was agreeing to some of my points (hence why he brought up knuckles being able to react to shadow's speed, a discussion we had, and i won also that knux was a martial artist, another discussion we had), so how about you gain some more knowledge before opening your mouth to call my theories flawed or say that someone is/isnt agreeing :-'. ok, im going to refute all your crap one more time, shadow has beaten sonic holding back, but never all out, this is true when shadow was powerless against ultimate emerl, while sonic STATED that it was time to stop holding back and took emerl at multiple time his normal speed, aka sonic speed. so to reiterate, shadow can take sonic when he's holding back (as he supersonic speed, hence why he is faster than sonic in sonic battle) but sonic is actually faster than shadow, much faster, so.he holds back on shadow and sonic alike. Not to mention the only reason shadow wins is because he uses chaos abilities, but since knuckles is in tune with the chaos force and has been proven to sense chaos abilities (from sab2, when he accurately sensed sonic teleporting next to him) and the build up of chaos energy that will not be as a effective, and he can use knuckle slam or volcanic dunk to protect him if shadow uses chaos control, not to mention the chant can stop the chaos emeralds :-, and how can he get the time to use it you ask, via powerflash, a time stopping move in sab2, so.no chaos abilities means he is outgunned in h2h and other ofdensive means (meteor like rocks foem sonic battle, thunder arrow from sab2, etc) , not to mention in advanced forms (actually hyper knuckles is comparable to hypersonic in power, and hypersonic is SUPERIOR to super sonic, not to mention hyper knuckles has a superior power source (hyper knuckles can be transformed by the super emeralds or the master emerald, both of which are superior to the chaos emeralds, hence why hyper sonic is superior to supersonic , and why hyper knuckle is FAR siperior to super shadow, my ignorant friend), so hyper knuckles ends this.either way, i really could just argue that point right there, but its more fun to debate the specifics of why knux beats your emo character into the dust. sonic said he was predictable, IF you give yourself time to study his moves (quote it right biased fanboy) something shadow doesn't have. military training is.nice, but knux fought the nocturnus clan (all of which are military trained, and beat a pack of them soundly), so that's not new and shadow doesnt get points for that, knuckles does. emerl beat knux because he.got emotional during most of those fights, but.knux has mellowed out now and there isn't a promise that it will happen again. shadow.is outclassed here, sonic beats him because of the immense speed advantage, shaodw doesn't.have the same benefit, and since all of shadow's winning tactics deal with chaos energy (which knux can sense) he is at a disadvantage here as compared to fighting sonic who has no such sense

so from fighting to super forms, he takes this, have a nice.day, do some research and come back with a better argument than that painfully refutable crap.

#116 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: As a matter of fact while im gone tell me what is flawed about my theories (for example my hyper knuckles theory isn't really a theory, super sonic is powered by the chaos emeralds, and since the super emeralds are enhanced verions of the chaos emeralds (thanks to the M.E. btw) it makes sense that hyper sonic is more powerful that super sonic (hyper sonic is stated to be sonic's most powerful form, ever), so since the super emeralds are stated to be improvements over the chaos emeralds (granting more speed, strength, durability, energy, etc) and grant a new level of strength, hyper knuckles is literally on another level of power, shadow would be better off fighting super knuckles or emerald power knuckles XD).

#117 Edited by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: The main theory that was flawed that i debunked with several examples was that shadow is supersonic when he has feats that prove otherwise. Another one was knuckles being able to negate chaos attacks and chaos control which he hasn't shown to do. There was a few others but considering how long our comments are im too lazy LOL.

#118 Posted by XLR87T3 (3527 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: I don't know why my notifications aren't working...

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#119 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Same here. like although i got 4 notifications im still missing allot more than i noticed when i went to updated threads.

#120 Edited by XLR87T3 (3527 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Yeah, I'm getting tired of checking all the threads I have posted in just to see if anyone responded to my comments or replies.

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#121 Edited by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Now that i think about it, there have been quite a few problems with comicvine

#122 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@

@deathhero61:

Lol, I get you man, i'm feeling pretty lazy too XD. So instead of writing whole pages i'll stick to the main points of our argument, you can choose which one to settle first.

1. Shadow is only supersonic (this is proven when shadow is stated to be faster than sonic normally in sonic battle, but could do nothing against ultimate emerl, this is because sonic was holding back on shadow, only going the speed of sound (hence why he said "I guess i'll have to stop holding back" when fighting ultimate emerl and this is also stated in the wikia "Seeing the overwhelming strength of Ultimate Emerl, Sonic fought at full strength and defeated him"http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog) so shadow can take sonic when he is moving at sonic speed (fast enough to break the sound barrier, which makes sense, as in the bio for shadow on that game it says his boots allow him to faster than the speed of sound), but when sonic goes all out shadow just can't keep up, so he is in the supersonic speed range).

2. I never said knuckles himself was able to negate chaos control or chaos based abilities (however when he says the chant he is able use the master emerald to negate chaos based abilities as he did in sab2, also here is an excerpt from the master emerald wikia "As its primary function, the Master Emerald has the power to fully control everything that the Chaos Emeralds do, which grants it the ability to both negate and empower Chaos Emeralds, meaning it can stop the Chaos Energy of the Chaos Emeralds, or enhance them." so technically he could negate them, he just needs time, but that what moves like volcanic dunk and power flash are for :-P lol), I said he can sense the chaos energy build up and use that to his advantage, for example if shadow is getting ready to teleport knuckles could sense the chaos energy build up and react accordingly (like he did in sonic adventure battle 2 when he sensed sonic teleporting to the ship via chaos control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB1PO0ch3JI, knuckles felt the chaos energy and turned to see sonic, so he would not be caught off guard) or if shadow is about to use chaos control he could sense that energy and use volcanic dunk to protect him while time is frozen shadow can't touch him because of the massive amounts of lava and chaos spear may not go through not to mention he couldn't see knux, he's surrounded in lava. So basically he has been shown to sense chaos energy and negate it via the mastser emerald (and since most of shadow's power and edge revolve around those chaos abilities, he will not have the edge like on other characters)

3. Hyper knuckles ends this battle "hyper knuckles theory isn't really a theory, super sonic is powered by the chaos emeralds, and since the super emeralds are enhanced verions of the chaos emeralds (thanks to the M.E. btw) it makes sense that hyper sonic is more powerful that super sonic (hyper sonic is stated to be sonic's most powerful form, ever http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Sonic), so since the super emeralds are stated to be improvements over the chaos emeralds (granting more speed, strength, durability, energy, etc) and grant a new level of strength, hyper knuckles is literally on another level of power, shadow would be better off fighting super knuckles or emerald power knuckles XD)." Also remember that super knuckles is light speed (as when shared sonic shared chaos energy with him in sonic heroes (chaos energy is not specific to one user and conforms to whom possess it, hence why knux can use fire abilities) knuckles used light speed attack, and since that wasn't even his super form it is only logical to agree that his super form is light speed), hyper knuckles is beyond light speed, and since super shadow is stated to be light speed, hyperknuckles outclasses him in everyway, it's not even a fair fight.

4. knuckles can take him in h2h combat, shadow is militarily trained in h2h combat, so are the nocturnus clan, and he took out several of them (the proof is in the game, but just in case you haven't played it... " focusing on hand-to-hand combat, and is capable of taking on even the most powerful of opponents without rest, such as when he was able to take down several of the military trained Nocturnus Clan soldiers") so it should be even here.

Alright, the ball is in your court my friend, choose one :-).

#123 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: Im not going to bother with the knuckles thing, too bothersome. Im just going to reply to 1 and 4 in one big comment. You should be able to tell which goes where after reading the entire comment.

The wiki like i said several times before contradicts itself. First it says knuckles runs at near-superhuman speeds, near superhuman means peak human. Which by the way is not impressive. While on another page it says he can move at supersonic speeds, like tail and amy and cream.(he is slower than tails and cream BTW based on gameplay of the sonic advance games.) Plus it also says that shadow has been equal with sonic in speed for several games until brotherhood and sonic o6 confirmed that sonic is officially faster. in sonic adventure 1 sonic was already confirmed to move at mach 10 speeds, in sonic adventure 2 sonic and shadow were keeping up with each other perfectly. Going all out in terms of combat strength is not the same as going all out in speed BTW. Plus ultimate emerl is actually faster than sonic if you played the game like i have. Then allot later in sonic generations sonic and shadow were neck in neck in speed.(which i stated several times and i have yet to see a counter from you) And the wiki is wrong about one thing there is no such thing as shadow moving at near hypersonic speeds. In real life hypersonic speeds is the fastest you can go. hypersonic speeds is mach 5 to mach ten, high hypersonic is mach 10 and up. Since shadow is slower than sonic we can assume that sonic is high hypersonic while shadow is low or mid hypersonic in terms of mach speeds. Whether or not sonic was holding back was irrelevant since shadow fought ultimate emerl(before he was fully awakened by eggman) twice. Beated him once when he had his chaos emerald(semi-ultimate) and fought him to a tie when he gave him his chaos emerald. Back then emerl was still collecting data, before their fight shadow told him to go and fight everyone else, he did and beated, rogue, gamma(along the way) knuckles(thats his fourth time beating him) tails, sonic(sonic and emerl have fought multiple times, emerl has even fended off both tails and sonic so sonic must have at least used full speed and not full combat strength against emerl in their penultimate fight if he could keep up with shadow at that point.) The wiki states that shadow is the only rival that sonic goes full on serious against, since you obviously keep avoiding this statement i'll quote it.

Shadow's arch-rival is none other than Sonic the Hedgehog. They became enemies when meeting in Sonic Adventure 2, but later became bitter arch-rivals. Since meeting each other, there has been a recurring and unfinished battle between them. Shadow and Sonic's rivalry can be fierce enough to the point of trying to kill each other, and at other times an intense competition. In any case, one always wants to outdo the other.

Shadow and Sonic frequently fight due to their own views on justice and morality and how to act on them. Their constant arguments quickly turn into outright deathmatches. Each does not care what the other thinks of their views. In a sense, the two hedgehogs are polar opposites in every way except their appearance. Almost every time they meet, they battle ferociously. Neither is ever willing to accept defeat.

Sonic himself stated that knuckles was highly predictable in combat.

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5:05

Edit: Take note, emerl at the point where shadow fought him to a standstill, had the data of all the characters already. Which was sonic, shadow, KNUCKLES, tails, amy, cream, chaos, rouge, and e102 chaos gamma. along with the fact he had 6 chaos emeralds, which gave him more power, gave him more intelligence, and skill. So..... taking that into consideration, shadow is more skilled in terms of fighting.

If he can win against a robot that has enough power and skill to take every single fighting style along with the opponent he is facing in this thread and make a more powerful fighting style i really don't see how knuckles can be more skilled.

One thing i forgot to mention through this entire debate: Both are skilled fighters, but the difference is while Shadow is always calm and calculating, Knuckles will quickly lose his temper and become sloppy which Shadow will take advantage of.In virtually every single incarnation of knuckles and shadow the difference has always been that sonic holds back against knuckles while taking shadow seriously. And in every incarnation shadow actually gives sonic trouble in a fight while sonic plays around teases knuckles while blitzing him and fighting him.

Honestly its clear that shadow is hypersonic so im just going to move on if you won't except it.

#124 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61:

As I admitted before, the wikia is not always right, it is why you have to play the games to determine what is right and what is false. So to help you out (you seem confused) knuckles is faster than the speed of sound (based on sonic advance and the opening scene in sonic heroes, as in both he broke the sound barrier), and shadow is at best supersonic he is faster than the speed of sound (shadow went head to head and even beat sonic, only when he was holding back (and I know combat and speed aren't the same, clearly he held back in both) , so he's not mach 10, that's when it became known that he is slower that sonic). also I have played sonic battle (hence why I was able to inform you that sonic said he would stop holding back) and sonic and U emerl were going blow for blow, the fact that he kept up with him is the point I think you're missing. Emerl was going many times the speed of sound, and since shadow was just over the speed of sound he was outclassed, but sonic wasn't, that means either sonic has been holding back the whole time (taking into account you said sonic was stated mach 10 in sonic adventure 1, which I will need proof for because it is proven that he was first stated to be over sonic speed during sonic battle) or, sonic just got faster, either way it goes shadow is just over sonic speed. that is the most recent find, past sonic adventure, past it all, sonic battle puts shadow as just above sonic speed, and BTW I have countered your answer "Then allot later in sonic generations sonic and shadow were neck in neck in speed" based on what we know, sonic was holding back, also in sonic and the dark brotherhood shadow stated he was slower, so shadow is supersonic at best, and even in that quote, it is shown that sonic is holding back (btw that quote was from the wikia, clearly an example of it's flaw based on the games, as from sonic battle to sonic and the dark brotherhood sonic is shown to hold back. also you're not reading what I said, again sonic said knuckles was predictable because he has fought him many time over and knows his moves " Despite being a powerhouse in close combat, as stated by Sonic, most of Knuckles' fighting moves are slow and easy to read, making Knuckles more vulnerable to those who give themselves time to read his moves." shadow doesn't have that advantage. And btw he only beat emerl because of his chaos ability advantage, and he doesn't have that advantage against knuckles, plus knuckles has mellowed out a little (like when he fought the nocturnus clan) so I doubt he'd go too emotional, heated yes but raging no. I've proven shadow isn't hypersonic (hence why shadow was faster than sonic when going sonic speed but outclassed when emerl went multiple time the speed of light), you have yet to prove he is (not state, prove).

#125 Edited by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: You just helped me prove that the wiki is not always right and that it contradicts itself on more than one occasion. Thank you.

As I admitted before, the wikia is not always right, it is why you have to play the games to determine what is right and what is false. So to help you out (you seem confused) knuckles is faster than the speed of sound (based on sonic advance and the opening scene in sonic heroes, as in both he broke the sound barrier), and shadow is at best supersonic he is faster than the speed of sound (shadow went head to head and even beat sonic, only when he was holding back (and I know combat and speed aren't the same, clearly he held back in both) , so he's not mach 10, that's when it became known that he is slower that sonic). also I have played sonic battle (hence why I was able to inform you that sonic said he would stop holding back) and sonic and U emerl were going blow for blow, the fact that he kept up with him is the point I think you're missing. Emerl was going many times the speed of sound, and since shadow was just over the speed of sound he was outclassed, but sonic wasn't, that means either sonic has been holding back the whole time (taking into account you said sonic was stated mach 10 in sonic adventure 1, which I will need proof for because it is proven that he was first stated to be over sonic speed during sonic battle) or, sonic just got faster, either way it goes shadow is just over sonic speed.

I am well aware that knuckles is faster than sound i was using that to show the wiki is not always right. And how can shadow be supersonic? I just proved to you that shadow is hypersonic if shadow nears the same speeds sonic runs at and is always neck in neck with him he should be low hypersonic to mid hypersonic which is mach 5 to mach 7.5. Here is the quote:

Sonic is known best for his speed, with the ability to run at speeds greater than Mach 1, which is at the blistering speed of 768 mph (1,236 km/h). This is evident in many games, where Sonic is recorded to run at speeds faster than 765 mph (1,231 km/h). It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h). He is occasionally referred to as "the fastest thing alive," and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes. Due to such speed, he is able to scale right up the walls of buildings, or similar structures, and can also run right over water.

Shadow keeps up with him in a majority of the games. Shadow was outclassed? you are trying so hard to ignore that he bested him once in combat prior to getting all emeralds and fought him to a standstill right after he went and beaten everyone else in combat. Tails, Rouge, Cream, Amy, knuckles etc. Then right after reabsorbing all that knowledge went to go fight shadow. He also fought sonic(take note that emerl at that point should have forced sonic to use his full speed since emerl at that point was already skilled enough to beat everyone else and fight shadow his arch-rival.) I forgot to mention but emerl fought both sonic and shadow working together right after emerl fought shadow. Sonic would have had to go full speed then if emerl was strong enough to fend both of them off.

that is the most recent find, past sonic adventure, past it all, sonic battle puts shadow as just above sonic speed, and BTW I have countered your answer "Then allot later in sonic generations sonic and shadow were neck in neck in speed" based on what we know, sonic was holding back, also in sonic and the dark brotherhood shadow stated he was slower, so shadow is supersonic at best, and even in that quote, it is shown that sonic is holding back (btw that quote was from the wikia, clearly an example of it's flaw based on the games, as from sonic battle to sonic and the dark brotherhood sonic is shown to hold back. also you're not reading what I said, again sonic said knuckles was predictable because he has fought him amny time over and knows his moves " Despite being a powerhouse in close combat, as stated by Sonic, most of Knuckles' fighting moves are slow and easy to read, making Knuckles more vulnerable to those who give themselves time to read his moves." shadow doesn't have that advantage. I've proven shadow isn't hypersonic, you have yet to prove he is.

You are still ignoring that shadow is sonic's greatest rival.

Out of all the rivals Sonic faces, Shadow is the one whom he struggles most with. Shown in all the clashes between the two, they are nearly equally strong or as strong as the other, with both sides proving to be neither lacking in any category that separates them from skill in their respective prowess. It is shown that while Sonic is becoming faster and more honed than Shadow, Shadow is getting stronger and more destructive than Sonic. This has only increased the intensity of their arch-rivalry. They have an unshakable need to showcase their growth and improvement for each and every encounter they have.

Then on shadow's page it said the following:

Shadow's arch-rival is none other than Sonic the Hedgehog. They became enemies when meeting in Sonic Adventure 2, but later became bitter arch-rivals. Since meeting each other, there has been a recurring and unfinished battle between them. Shadow and Sonic's rivalry can be fierce enough to the point of trying to kill each other, and at other times an intense competition. In any case, one always wants to outdo the other.

Shadow and Sonic frequently fight due to their own views on justice and morality and how to act on them. Their constant arguments quickly turn into outright deathmatches. Each does not care what the other thinks of their views. In a sense, the two hedgehogs are polar opposites in every way except their appearance. Almost every time they meet, they battle ferociously. Neither is ever willing to accept defeat.

If sonic is holding back why would he try to kill shadow? If sonic was holding back why would he try to out do him? If sonic was holding back how could you hold back in a death match? If neither wants to lose its only natural to not hold back. If sonic stated that knuckles is slow and predictable that is still applicable to shadow since shadow is as skilled if not more skilled than sonic is in terms of combat. If shadow is that skilled then it shouldn't be a problem for him in the first place. He fought emerl a machine who is highly intelligent and can create new fighting styles out of old, making him virtually unpredictable and won once and fought him to a standstill when he was on the brink of reaching full power.

And i have proved shadow is hypersonic. Sonic according to the manual can move to 3000 to 8000 miles per hour, thats hypersonic speeds. Mach 5 to mach 10 speeds.

And back to knuckles, i can apply that to real life, if me an amatuer at combat fights a master of martial arts and he says the reason i lost was the factor that i lack precision or skill than his lower students who are skilled in his art can do the same. Those with immense skill can see weaknesses that others has seen. If me and you fought and i said that your weakness is that you lack speed, but im not even that skilled in combat, i'm pretty sure a skilled martial artist would notice the same weakness no matter how hard you try to hide it.

Knuckles fought a bunch of martial artist in the rpg game thats impressive but thats nothing in comparison to everything shadow has done in his own game.

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He fought mephiles who is tiers above knuckles.

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Beaten silver who is also above knuckles.

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In fact nothing red has done has ever even come close to what shadow has done.

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And don't bring that sonic heroes crap. He was fighting along side sonic and tails.

#126 Posted by w0nd (5261 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: The main theory that was flawed that i debunked with several examples was that shadow is supersonic when he has feats that prove otherwise. Another one was knuckles being able to negate chaos attacks and chaos control which he hasn't shown to do. There was a few others but considering how long our comments are im too lazy LOL.

any time knuckles tried to negate chaos energy in games, it more often then not has failed. Shadow has super strength in his base form, he can flip busses over and carry crates around with one hand, speed arguable close to sonic, and long range attacks, and that power boost he gets when he removes his inhibitor rings. I honestly don't know how he had trouble with sonic, but I seriously think they didn't know where they were going with the character when he first came out, and then over time gave him new powers one by one unexplained

#127 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: you're more than welcome, as i never said that it couldn't be wrong, just that there are truths to it just as there are flaws, just depends on if you have the knowledge to differ between the two, and it actually didn't contradict itself on shadow's speed, he really is supersonic, so you're welcome :-'.

ok i have seen the information you said supports him being hypersonic, and i refute with this, sonic holds back on him, not going his full speed. the wikia says they have all out matches, this is shown to be false as he is beaten by shadow but takes out ultimate emerl (an enemy shadow was powerless against), this is because most of their fights sonic holds back. to reiterate, sonic was moving at sonic speed when he was beaten by shadow, (which is supported by the game (since you played it) because they say shadow is faster than sonic because his boots push hom over the sound barrier, meaning shadow was faster because sonic was moving at sonic speed, however sonic was shown to be holding back and then went multiple times his regular speed to tak emerl, so he either 1 held back, or 2 got faster, either way it goes shadow is only like mach 2 or 3, whi h knuckles can handle, and that my friend, is supported by the game).

keeping up with sonic is not a feat (as apparently he is faster than sonic in sonic battle), keeping up with a non holding back sonic is, heck sonic and knuckles "keep up" with him all the time, doesnt make him hypersonic, and he beat emerl because of chaos abilities, he doesn't have that advanatge here, (btw @w0nd, he has negated chaos energy before, in sab2, he shut off the power supplied to biolizard, it just had absorbed enough already to do some damage, shadow can't ( btw shadow's speed is not even close to sonic's true speed, just his holding back speed, knuckles has multiple long ranged attacks (thunder arrow, meteor like rocks from space to name some) as well, and he can boost his powers with the master emerald (ex emerald power) which is more powerful than inhibitor removal. And he had trouble with sonic because conic is better, the only reason he stands a chance is because of chaos abilities, and he learns them because it's all he has XD) for more info on knux check my #106 and #109 posts.

I'm not ignoring the fact that shadow is his greatest rival (which is debatable, as silver is clearly up there), im just statung the obvious, sonic holds back on him and the only reason he is even a threat is because of his chaos abilities, and as i stated before that wont be an advantage over knux (sensing and negating and all), you keep bringing up when he fought emerl, but here's the thing, are you listening, EMERL CAN SENSE OR NEGATE CHAOS ENERGY, THAT IS SHADOW'S MAIN ADVANTAGE, TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE A LIE. Plus knuckles has tbunder arrow, meteor like rocks, and bombs as projectiles, so its not like shadow holds all the cards, and fighting emerl near perfection and fighting him after a group of stars have awakened him are two diff things, one is hypersonic, one is not :-|.

and whooptie do, sonic is 5,000 mph!!! good for him, still doesn't change the fact he got beaten to a holding back, sonic speed sonic. im not ignoring anything (from sonic being hypersonic to shadow beating him, i say its because he held back, and that seems to be true and is supported by sonic battle and has set the pace for the rest of the games), i am supporting my idea with in a way you can understand.

yeah i see your point, but its not technical enough, if it were that easy sonic sonic would put him out of commision fast, but knux gives him a challenge so he's a sparring partner, not some inexperienced guy. knux has the durability to withstand shadow's hita and the speed to counter it, it's not that simple for shadow to just see that and immediately take advantage, knuckles skill is noticable enough to be commented on by tails (who is very technical and if the k.uckle you described was fighting would have said "well knuckles is kinda sloppy in fighting, instead he said this foe must be really difficult to take out knuckles")

man please!! he didnt beat silver!!! he used chaos control! cant believe you brung that crap up, that certainly doesn't count! silver would own shadow you...... just dont.... and sonic has taken bombs exploding in his face and fought super military trained foes, not to mention he fough black dooms race too, so he is all set as far as power goes. he can take shad ;-).

#128 Edited by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio
#129 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (7990 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow stomps.

#130 Edited by oblivion360 (498 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: got tired of arguing with him he's just going to say the same things over again while looking at wikis and only picking out the parts that helps him

Edit: who am I kidding i'll get on it later

#131 Posted by Dbzk1999 (2692 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure if this has been stated but shadow has been shown to use chaos control in shadow the hedgehog the game without chaos control

And before you say oh they were game mechanics no it wasn't because in last story (which is CANON) you have to use chaos control to continue and he had no chaos emeralds

#132 Edited by oblivion360 (498 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: all right cosmoman lets start this dance all over again. And I'll start with this part

2. I never said knuckles himself was able to negate chaos control or chaos based abilities (however when he says the chant he is able use the master emerald to negate chaos based abilities as he did in sab2, also here is an excerpt from the master emerald wikia "As its primary function, the Master Emerald has the power to fully control everything that the Chaos Emeralds do, which grants it the ability to both negate and empower Chaos Emeralds, meaning it can stop the Chaos Energy of the Chaos Emeralds, or enhance them." so technically he could negate them, he just needs time, but that what moves like volcanic dunk and power flash are for :-P lol), I said he can sense the chaos energy build up and use that to his advantage, for example if shadow is getting ready to teleport knuckles could sense the chaos energy build up and react accordingly (like he did in sonic adventure battle 2 when he sensed sonic teleporting to the ship via chaos control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB1PO0ch3JI, knuckles felt the chaos energy and turned to see sonic, so he would not be caught off guard) or if shadow is about to use chaos control he could sense that energy and use volcanic dunk to protect him while time is frozen shadow can't touch him because of the massive amounts of lava and chaos spear may not go through not to mention he couldn't see knux, he's surrounded in lava. So basically he has been shown to sense chaos energy and negate it via the mastser emerald (and since most of shadow's power and edge revolve around those chaos abilities, he will not have the edge like on other characters)

now I'm going to have to tell you this again Knuckles does not have the master emerald in this fight it was not giving to him in the op in fact nothing was giving to any character so we must assume the have their standard equipment while knuckles is known for guarding the master emerald he actually does a very bad job. in the games where he is playable its because he doesn't have the master emerald its ether broken or stolen he doesn't take it with him every where he goes. but on the flip side shadow does have his green chaos emerald that he alwsenays cewith him in every game since his first appearance.

now i watched that clip of yours and i saw knuckles say "I sense some strange energy" which is the basis for your he can sence the energy build up argument. first off knuckles didn't turn around he was already facing the direction sonic was going to show up (not really important but heh) secondly sonic's teleportation is not even close to shadows sonic is not the master that shadow is with chaos energy when shadow teleports its not slow like sonic's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoNEHIIy4RA he doesn't charge anything it happens when he wants it to if he use chaos control while knuckles is in med punch knuckles can't defend. and moves that are only used in 2 player mode are not canon so knuckles cant use them I told you this before and you didn't listen but now that you said "i never said that it couldn't be wrong, just that there are truths to it just as there are flaws, just depends on if you have the knowledge to differ between the two" I hope you can understand that just because its listed as a move on the wiki doesn't mean its canon material if he only did in multiplayer and never during the story mode then it never happened.

3. Hyper knuckles ends this battle "hyper knuckles theory isn't really a theory, super sonic is powered by the chaos emeralds, and since the super emeralds are enhanced verions of the chaos emeralds (thanks to the M.E. btw) it makes sense that hyper sonic is more powerful that super sonic (hyper sonic is stated to be sonic's most powerful form, ever http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Sonic), so since the super emeralds are stated to be improvements over the chaos emeralds (granting more speed, strength, durability, energy, etc) and grant a new level of strength, hyper knuckles is literally on another level of power, shadow would be better off fighting super knuckles or emerald power knuckles XD)." Also remember that super knuckles is light speed (as when shared sonic shared chaos energy with him in sonic heroes (chaos energy is not specific to one user and conforms to whom possess it, hence why knux can use fire abilities) knuckles used light speed attack, and since that wasn't even his super form it is only logical to agree that his super form is light speed), hyper knuckles is beyond light speed, and since super shadow is stated to be light speed, hyperknuckles outclasses him in everyway, it's not even a fair fight.

he can't go hyper he does not have the super emeralds or the master emerald and even if he had the master emerald he wouldn't be able to go hyper. and sorry to tell you but the super emeralds and hyper form got retconned into the current super form and chaos emeralds. the only reason the super emeralds where around was because they needed chaos emeralds to get in the special stages but since you already got the chaos emeralds in sonic 3 they made the super emeralds for sonic 3 & knuckles then when sonic adventure came out they made the super emeralds the current chaos emeralds. so the super sonic that you see is the old hyper sonic.

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now to end my post i'm going to point out a few things knuckles is one of sonic's oldest friends they started out rivals back in the first games when everyone was the same speed and in their time as rivals knuckles never won once even when they were friends he didn't even come close not even in an enclosed ring where knuckles being the fighter he is should have the advantage still lost showing that sonic is the better martial artist. shadow being physically stronger than sonic and a better fighter will have no problems.

#133 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio
#134 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61 i'm game, lets play.

@oblivion360 "now I'm going to have to tell you this again Knuckles does not have the master emerald in this fight it was not giving to him in the op in fact nothing was giving to any character so we must assume the have their standard equipment while knuckles is known for guarding the master emerald he actually does a very bad job. in the games where he is playable its because he doesn't have the master emerald its ether broken or stolen he doesn't take it with him every where he goes. but on the flip side shadow does have his green chaos emerald that he alwsenays cewith him in every game since his first appearance."

k, one knuckles is the guardian of the master emerald, and believe it or not it is standard equipment, hence why on sonic and sega all stars racing (no i'm not crazy i know that's non canon, but as you can guess the crew got ideas that wouldn't be too far fetched and matched each character) he could summon it; and the idea is not far fetched, as he is able to shrink and grow the M.E (which i have already given proof for) even if it was not given the issue is not whether it was listed or not (as the green chaos emerald wasn't listend for shad, and yet you brought it up), but whether it is standard gear, so slow your horses kid, how about we resolve that issue before getting to the more complex issues that some of my argument is BASED upon.

Starting....now.

#135 Edited by XBleeding_EdgeX (406 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow has degrees of super strength, and has been shown to keep up with Sonic on an even plane. Things Knuckles cannot do.

#136 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: If in a majority of the games show knuckles doesn't have the master emerald why would it be standard equipment? Its always on the altar and the only time it was off the altar was during sonic adventure 2. During sonic heroes he didn't have the master emerald with him. Thats why at the end of the game knuckles was chasing after rouge. While shadow like always had his green chaos emerald.

#137 Posted by Joygirl (20855 posts) - - Show Bio

...Whoa.

#138 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61:

Now that I have contemplated over the thought a bit, I guess the master emerald wouldn't be standard equipment as it's main job is to keep angel island afloat (and btw I wouldn't call knuckles a bad guardian, after all, how can you guard something when the world has been destroyed, and that's the threat on most games... except for the for the more recent ones), so touché, but as stated before that is a trademark to knuckles, you can't have knuckles without the M.E, that's just common knowledge, where is this battle taking place anyway, the most logical place would be angel island, that way both competitors would have access to an array of chaos abilities.

#139 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: Nope. The location wasn't specified. We can only assume random encounter. Considering how knuckles on occasion has left his post. Even for birthday parties, im going to assume that its somewhere in their world but not on angel island.

#140 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio
#141 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@@deathhero61 Plausible assumption........ however, a random encounter (for knuckles) would be on angel island. That is the most reliable location for one to find knux, he doesn't just wander off aimlessly, (unless like you said it was a party or something major (afterall, it's his friends birthday, he's not heartless, heck even shadow came)), if you're operating under the term ceteris paribus then you should probably state so, because saying he has a tendency to leave his post means there is a slight chance of without him having the master emerald, which is possible, not unarguably plausible, as more than likely he should have the emerald. Btw, i think it's a little weak to give shadow the tool he needs to transform his thoughts into power but not knuckles, it's like pitting odinforceless thor against the silver surfer, it's just sad. Oh and btw @oblivion360, knux could go via the master emerald, as all super emeralds are chaos emeralds enhanced by the MASTER EMERALD, essentially, the energy to hyper is under knuckle's control. and as far as shadow teleporting faster, he teleported the same way and at the same speed sonic did in the SAB2 cutscenes, it was more of a game mechanic than an actual feat.

#142 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: Now you are relying on a even bigger assumption that the battle would take place on angel island. And no hyper forms are stated non-canon so he cannot do it either. Knuckles loses in pure fight without ME end of discussion.

#143 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61:

Well it's the most logical place knuckles would be found, why not. And no hyper forms were never STATED non canon, as hyper sonic is Sonic's most powerful form known to date. But if we're going to handicap knuckles by not giving him the master emerald, then sure shadow wins. Btw don't every use this https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pHv_97G4CuM as proof for shadow beating silver, just... don't.

#144 Edited by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: Why would shadow go to angel island in a pure random encounter?

#145 Posted by swordmasterD (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are people forgetting that Shadow can use chaos control/spear

He can only use those moves via chaos emerald

#146 Posted by those_eyes (12701 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow wins but not in a stomp like people are squealing.

#147 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61 Shadow is on the hunt for emeralds maybe or G.U.N wants him to seize the Master emerald, but both wouldn't count as random..... fine, without the M.E. shadow wins, However i won't partake in such an unfair battle, if you would like to prove that shadow is better than knuckles overall i am going to start a battle thread with knuckles vs shadow, both with their respective weapons (probably not guns though)...... as soon as i learn how to make a battle thread XD, or one of you could make it, idc, but this.... is just sad (like a guardian can't use what he's guarding, :-').

#149 Posted by DeathHero61 (8531 posts) - - Show Bio
@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61 Shadow is on the hunt for emeralds maybe or G.U.N wants him to seize the Master emerald, but both wouldn't count as random..... fine, without the M.E. shadow wins, However i won't partake in such an unfair battle, if you would like to prove that shadow is better than knuckles overall i am going to start a battle thread with knuckles vs shadow, both with their respective weapons (probably not guns though)...... as soon as i learn how to make a battle thread XD, or one of you could make it, idc, but this.... is just sad (like a guardian can't use what he's guarding, :-').

Actually shadow wins regardless if you ignore the supposed hyperforms that you keep on trying to factor in despite them not showing any feats above current super shadow and super sonic.(By the way super shadow, supersonic, and super silver are all omnipresent.)

Why are people forgetting that Shadow can use chaos control/spear

He can only use those moves via chaos emerald

Shadow can use any of his abilities without the chaos emerald. The chaos emerald just boosts his powers immensely.

#150 Posted by swordmasterD (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Actually he can't. I can post links to prove that he needs at least one emerald for chaos control. Unless we are talking about the comics because then you can have a connection with the chaos force but that doesn't exist outside the comics