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#51 Edited by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

shadow from the games would wreck knuckles. while knuckles beats him in the strength department but shadow is no pushover when it comes to raw power saying he's just an evil sonic is really underestimating him. he's smarter stronger and more ruthless than sonic and a better combatant. I would say he's just as fast but according to "sonic 2006" (the worst sonic game ever) he's not but that doesn't change the fact that he is way faster then knuckles and can use chaos control without a chaos emerald. He can end it with a hyper sonic roundhouse kick to the face then chaos spear.

the archie comics is no better while knuckles is stronger in the comics so is shadow. He runs at light speed and has a direct link to the chaos force. Having a direct link to the chaos force means he doesn't need the master emerald to use chaos energy. Knuckles doesn't stand a chance.

And finally in the sonic x cartoon i'm willing to say shadow is physically stronger than knuckles. since he pushed back a dragon's head that was going to destroy the ship they were on (the entire dragon was about the size of a small planet) so knuckles would be out classed in all fields.

All in all the ultimate life form Stomps

QFT along with the fact that shadow tied up in a fight with penultimate-form emerl.(at this point had the skills of all the combatants including shadow himself, emerl can perfect the abilties he copies and change it into a completely different style, therefore making him unpredictable and heavily skilled.) Knuckles lost to emerl when he was in his development stages, do to his harsh fighting style of not thinking(sonic stated knuckles has allot of strength but is easy to read in a fight.)

#52 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

hmm, interesting. while all of what you guys say is true, i would like to point out a few things. oblivion, while shadow is stronger and more ruthless, he is not sonic's equal in speed (shaodw is supersonic, while sonic is hypersonic going on lightspeed) and knux has no problem fighting sonic, so speed won't be an issue and his durability can tank the punches. chaos control can be countered with a volcanic eruption (he can sense him gathering energy for chaos control) and counter with powerflash (time stopper in sab2) which will be the end for shad. comics are non-canon, so i wont comment there (too crazy, ex shadow taking enerjak (which is crazy). knux for the win. now generator, while it is true he may be a better chaos manipulator, knux is very adept at it as well (ex his supernatural abilities to summon lightning (sab2), meteors (sonic battle) and stop time) so knux isn't outclassed here. and while shadow is fast, hes taken sonic so he'll do just fine against him, and he has sefenses to say the chant and cut the chaos abilities, leaving him the only one with projectiles and chaos abilities. and hyperknux is on another level bro, supershad may be able to take superknux (who is lightspeed, much like super shad) but hyperknux (remember game hyper knux and comic hyper knux are diff, being taht the comic one is actually stated to be a superform while game version is actuallu a hyper form) who is an advanced version of superknux, which places him another league. And since hypersonic is stated to be sonic's most powerful form known to date, and hyper knux runs at comparable speeds (both make afterimages) he would be above shad in speed, his only advantage. hyperknux would def beat super shadow. and lastly for my newcomer, you're right, shad beat him near perfection while knix lost to a beginner. however, shad has lost to sonic twice (one in sonic the dark brotherhood and one on sonic generations) while knux has not lost once, so it could go either way. i think knux would win, mostly because of his defenses and hyper knux. i can only post so many times (5 max) and im in multiple convos so if i dont answer right away dont fret, i will get to you. the latest in this instance being monday. later.

#53 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: Yeah but we all know they are going to start off in base, shadow could easily speed blitz him with his superior speed combined with his superior combat skills, also if he wanted to he can easily blitz with his time and space manipulation hax. I mean look at sonic battle. look at the description of his powers and how he can utilize them in combat. Whats stopping him from using chaos control at the start of the battle? he can easily do this.

#54 Posted by Anjales (554 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow wins.

First of all he has the speed advantage, and he is just as fast as Sonic and while Knux is no slouch and can keep up with Sonic, Shadow is a lot more vicious, and Knuckles' temper may get the best of him which bring us to the next point. Both are skilled fighters, but the difference is while Shadow is always calm and calculating, Knuckles will quickly lose his temper and become sloppy which Shadow will take advantage of. Both are very strong, but Knuckles has the advantage in this department but this is countered by Shadow's speed, but Shadow is durable enough to take Knuckles's punches..Durability feat: Shadow survived falling from space. Shadow can also use the Chaos Spear (he doesn't need any emeralds to use it) to stun and immobilize Knuckles. He can also unleash the devastating Chaos Blast if he gets angry enough. And if all else fails, he can just take off his Chaos Bracelets and simply end it once and for all. It is said that his bracelets restrain the full extent of his powers, which was strong enough to annihilate an army of Mephiles the Dark, but he becomes weakened after he uses it.

#55 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: shad can't blitz him, he's not fast enough (sonic, who is much faster than shadow, can't do that, so there's no way shad can), but i won't say he'd get the majority of the licks, but then again that's where knux's durability comes in. Skill wise knux is his equal (he has taken on Nocturnus clan members (who are military trained martial artists, and has taken on an robot army without rest, so he's just as skilled if not moreso. He can increase his physical strikes too (fire covered punches and take shad out with a few strikes. And if shad did use c.c. off the bat, knux could sense the chaos energy building up beforehand and use volcanic dunk to cover and hide himself in lava, meaning shad can't get close and strike or use chaos spear from afar and hit on target. Once it is over knux could use powerflash and just deep impact his face, ending the match. @ anjales knux temper is a maybe, and he has become more meticulous over time, s that may not happen, and knux can stand vicious. Even if knux got careless he has defenses to either say the chant or regroup. Shad isn't fast enough to

#56 Edited by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: AGAIN HE LOST TO EMERL WHILE HE WAS IN HIS DEVELOPMENT STAGES, SHADOW FOUGHT SEMI-ULTIMATE EMERL TO A STANDSTILL. THIS WAS DUE TO KNUCKLES RASH DECISION MAKING, AND HIS TEMPER. SONIC EVEN SAID THAT KNUCKLES IS PREDICTABLE.

5:05

Edit: Take note, emerl at the point where shadow fought him to a standstill, had the data of all the characters already. Which was sonic, shadow, KNUCKLES, tails, amy, cream, chaos, rouge, and e102 chaos gamma. along with the fact he had 6 chaos emeralds, which gave him more power, gave him more intelligence, and skill. So..... taking that into consideration, shadow is more skilled in terms of fighting.

#57 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

No need to reiterate or take note, theres nothing you can teach me that i don't already.know about him or that, i already know why knux lost, due to temper, but the wiki says he's alot more meticulous now about that, so it's a MAYBE, get it? He lost to sonic, TWICE, knux NEVER. Does that male him better? No. It's about equal. He's only predictable if you stidy his moves (that's sonic's words) so that's not an issue @ajales (i didn't finish) do what sonic did and will be hit more, so he won't be blitzing at all. Falling from space is nice durability, but last time i checked that was blunt force, and when you have a fist with 100+tons of forcce behind it and spikes at the front, that's piercing to the highest degree, and that will mess him up. He can sense chaos spear and evade (remember he can sense chaos energy build up) and the same can be said for chaos blast, as a matter of fact he can dig and avoid chaos blast, and come up with a devastating uppercut, so chaos abilities are not so helpful here. Knux can counter the inhibitor ring removal with emerald power (sonic and sega all stars) which has the power of a super shield, which has power comparable to a super form. So unless you say inhibitorless shad>superform (which is insane) that's fasle. And since it leaves him weakend afterwards, knx can take advantage of that and use projectiles (lightning, meteors) to end him. If knux wanted to go all out, he could just go hyperknux (game version, not comic version which is actually a super form) who is superior to superknuckles in every way, and by that logic to super shadow. Hyperknux is literally on another level, and is equal to hypersonic (aka sonics most powerful form known to date). From staright brawling, to stalling to cut the emeralds, to jist going hyper, knux would win. Night.

#58 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

No need to reiterate or take note, theres nothing you can teach me that i don't already.know about him or that, i already know why knux lost, due to temper, but the wiki says he's alot more meticulous now about that, so it's a MAYBE, get it? He lost to sonic, TWICE, knux NEVER. Does that male him better? No. It's about equal. He's only predictable if you stidy his moves (that's sonic's words) so that's not an issue @ajales (i didn't finish) do what sonic did and will be hit more, so he won't be blitzing at all. Falling from space is nice durability, but last time i checked that was blunt force, and when you have a fist with 100+tons of forcce behind it and spikes at the front, that's piercing to the highest degree, and that will mess him up. He can sense chaos spear and evade (remember he can sense chaos energy build up) and the same can be said for chaos blast, as a matter of fact he can dig and avoid chaos blast, and come up with a devastating uppercut, so chaos abilities are not so helpful here. Knux can counter the inhibitor ring removal with emerald power (sonic and sega all stars) which has the power of a super shield, which has power comparable to a super form. So unless you say inhibitorless shad>superform (which is insane) that's fasle. And since it leaves him weakend afterwards, knx can take advantage of that and use projectiles (lightning, meteors) to end him. If knux wanted to go all out, he could just go hyperknux (game version, not comic version which is actually a super form) who is superior to superknuckles in every way, and by that logic to super shadow. Hyperknux is literally on another level, and is equal to hypersonic (aka sonics most powerful form known to date). From staright brawling, to stalling to cut the emeralds, to jist going hyper, knux would win. Night.

Actually, in canon knuckles lost to sonic multiple times.......

He said his moves are simple to read. Considering how emerl at that point was in development before he became a expert at fighting, and shadow is an expert in combat than, im sure shadow will be fine. If emerl beated him on his first try im positive shadow can do the same....... In fact, knuckles has a losing count. He lost to allot of characters in fights..... mainly due to his personality and way of fighting...... He can speed blitz via light speed attack.

Proof that game knuckles can do this in combat? Plus im almost positive that moves like chaos magic is won't be sensed, considering how he distorts space in order to use the technique via chaos control. He can also create a powerful guard via chaos control, heal himself via chaos control, and even send homing projectiles at his enemies via energy manipulation. So Chaos abilities are helpful here. Plus how is he dodging chaos blast? thats basically a explosion. knuckles is not fast enough to dodge a close range explosion.(shadow in character uses chaos blast in close range.)

emerald power? Proof of knuckles utilizing it in combat and not races?(the main reason i ask this is because emeralds can also be used to power machines. and a car is still technically a machine, also if you are going to take this mechanic seriously than by that logic sonic can make a ring shield, which is ridiculous, plus this chaos shield knuckles supposedly can make, you do know that all super star moves run out after a few seconds? Inhibitor realeased ring shadow can probably last longer considering, he took out a entire army..... ) also shadow has a technique called chaos boost that temporarily gives him a boost in power, it increases physical strength, it increases durability, even making you immune to certain attacks, and increases destructive capacity. Which is similar to shadow releasing his inhibitor ring effects. So imagine, he takes off his rings, then uses chaos boost. Imagine the difference in power......

inhibitor rings shadow>supposed superform that only last a few seconds.......

And you keep dodging this, how is knuckles going to counter if he is going to be frozen by chaos control? as soon as he is frozen in time, shadow can attack as much as he wants until time unfreezes......

#59 Posted by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

hmm, interesting. while all of what you guys say is true, i would like to point out a few things. oblivion, while shadow is stronger and more ruthless, he is not sonic's equal in speed (shaodw is supersonic, while sonic is hypersonic going on lightspeed) and knux has no problem fighting sonic, so speed won't be an issue and his durability can tank the punches. chaos control can be countered with a volcanic eruption (he can sense him gathering energy for chaos control) and counter with powerflash (time stopper in sab2) which will be the end for shad. comics are non-canon, so i wont comment there (too crazy, ex shadow taking enerjak (which is crazy). knux for the win. now generator, while it is true he may be a better chaos manipulator, knux is very adept at it as well (ex his supernatural abilities to summon lightning (sab2), meteors (sonic battle) and stop time) so knux isn't outclassed here. and while shadow is fast, hes taken sonic so he'll do just fine against him, and he has sefenses to say the chant and cut the chaos abilities, leaving him the only one with projectiles and chaos abilities. and hyperknux is on another level bro, supershad may be able to take superknux (who is lightspeed, much like super shad) but hyperknux (remember game hyper knux and comic hyper knux are diff, being taht the comic one is actually stated to be a superform while game version is actuallu a hyper form) who is an advanced version of superknux, which places him another league. And since hypersonic is stated to be sonic's most powerful form known to date, and hyper knux runs at comparable speeds (both make afterimages) he would be above shad in speed, his only advantage. hyperknux would def beat super shadow. and lastly for my newcomer, you're right, shad beat him near perfection while knix lost to a beginner. however, shad has lost to sonic twice (one in sonic the dark brotherhood and one on sonic generations) while knux has not lost once, so it could go either way. i think knux would win, mostly because of his defenses and hyper knux. i can only post so many times (5 max) and im in multiple convos so if i dont answer right away dont fret, i will get to you. the latest in this instance being monday. later.

1. sonic in the game is nowhere near light speed. and shadow may be slower than sonic but its not by so much that he'll get left in the dust their both hypersonic sonic is faster.

2. knuckles may be able to fight sonic but are you forgetting that knuckles and sonic are friends and when they fight it's usually because knuckles gets tricked into fighting because he's gullible so your abc logic is not going to work.

3. the moves that are used in sab2 are pretty much shared between all the characters so they cancel out. and if your talking about volcanic dunk from sonic heroes than shadow is fast enough to hit him before he lands.

4. refer to number 2

5.shadow can get through his defenses before they're up. iirc doesn't he need the master emerald to do the chant he doesn't have it here. super knuckles is not the speed of light. we have no idea how fast hyper knuckles is and he needs the super chaos emeralds to transform anyway.

i have to go but i'll countinue later

#60 Edited by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: to continu where i left off. Your stance is based on a transformation that he only did once and can't do in this fight (he needs the 7 chaos emeralds and the master emerald he doesn't have them in this fight) and abc logic that isn't true cause knuckles lost to sonic that wasn't seriously trying

#61 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: multiple times huh, examples (i only remember once, sonic and knuckles)? And the emerl thing is overplayed, as he had a mixture of moves and knux didn't know what to expect, afterall he is Always on an island. Shad has experience and is faster so it only makes sense he would do better. However in shad vs knux, knuckles knows what to expect, and has faired well against sonic (they have fought to standstills MULTIPLE TIMES), and his move are readable, to those who study his moves, that's not possible here. Lightspeed attack has to charge, volcanic dunk while he charges would stop that. As for proof of sense, try sonic adventure battle 2, when sonic warped there, so he can do it, battle or not :-,. He can sense where he is about to teleport (like he did with sonic), when chaos spear is being used, and c.c. and since it is a CHARGED explosion he can sense it beforhand and dig, like i said before. And for emerald power, don't be ridiculous. That's like saying since sonic's superfirm last only a few seconds it won't last long otherwise, now that's ridiculous. I'd advise you to look up emerald power on sonic retro wiki. That form is more powerful than ihib less shad due to the fact that it is comparable to a superform in power, something that inhibless shadow can't say, point proven. Also chaos boost is nic (I've played the game) still not on superform power level. And emerald power can be used in combat, just like supershadow was on that racing game, do some more research emerald power>some powerboost. I didn't dodge chaos control, as a matyer of fact i mentioned it several times, as it is shadow's most potent abilitiy. Kknux could sense it (yes he can do it, look at all my former post for explanition, I'm not explaining that again) and use volcanic dunk, protecting from physical attacks (he is engulfed in tons of lava) and hinders vision (not chaos spear as a projectile attack. Knux could also counter with powerflash, now counter that.

#62 Posted by Spideysense44 (3562 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow wins this but Knuckles is still badass

#63 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@oblivion360 1. No, you're wrong. shadow is not hypersonic speed, he is supersonic (check the sonic wika, that's a fact sir) so no he's not almost anything to sonic, he can keep up, but They're not almost equal. 2. You don't know whether they were joking or not, as on the wikia it says they stalemated multiple times, nothing more nothing less (it would have mentioned sonic holding back, like it says on sonic profile about OTHER people, not knux), so that's assumption, which is a no-no. 3. Those attacks are unique and have varying power, check the stats, and as far as volcanic dunk, he can't stop that, he's not fasy enougj (knux kept if with sonic running at supersonic speeds (the wiki states sonic can run as fast backwards as forwards based on sonic heroes, and then sonic went even faster, with knux behind him, so he's around supersonic speed, AKA shadows range) what you're suggesting is blitz type speed, which he can't do, heck sonic doesn't even do it so that's false. 4. I disproved 2 so... 5. He can't get through the defenses, not fast enough (come with facts to prove otherwise) and yes he usually has it, he can shrink it to a size smaller than a chaos emerald (how can a guardian not have his prized possession with him :-,) . Super knux is actually around lightspeed, as most superforms and hyperknux is faster than superforms. Proof? Look at the fact that hypersonic (AKA SONIC'S MOST POWERFUL FORM) leaves afterimages and so does hyper knux, meaning They're both around the smae speed. And since both are enhanced versions of traditional superforms, they surpass them (I've said this before..). Hyperknux is another level, just admit it. To finish this (i can only post so many times, but the latest will be two days) even if knux doesn't have the M.E. he wins, and sonic holds back on everyone, so that's not special. He only stated to be serious on ultimate emerl, so everyone else was a fun, including shadow. You can call it abc logic, cause-effect whatever you like, However if you can't counter how a won't lead to b, and b to c, you still lose.

#64 Posted by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

@oblivion360 1. No, you're wrong. shadow is not hypersonic speed, he is supersonic (check the sonic wika, that's a fact sir) so no he's not almost anything to sonic, he can keep up, but They're not almost equal. 2. You don't know whether they were joking or not, as on the wikia it says they stalemated multiple times, nothing more nothing less (it would have mentioned sonic holding back, like it says on sonic profile about OTHER people, not knux), so that's assumption, which is a no-no. 3. Those attacks are unique and have varying power, check the stats, and as far as volcanic dunk, he can't stop that, he's not fasy enougj (knux kept if with sonic running at supersonic speeds (the wiki states sonic can run as fast backwards as forwards based on sonic heroes, and then sonic went even faster, with knux behind him, so he's around supersonic speed, AKA shadows range) what you're suggesting is blitz type speed, which he can't do, heck sonic doesn't even do it so that's false. 4. I disproved 2 so... 5. He can't get through the defenses, not fast enough (come with facts to prove otherwise) and yes he usually has it, he can shrink it to a size smaller than a chaos emerald (how can a guardian not have his prized possession with him :-,) . Super knux is actually around lightspeed, as most superforms and hyperknux is faster than superforms. Proof? Look at the fact that hypersonic (AKA SONIC'S MOST POWERFUL FORM) leaves afterimages and so does hyper knux, meaning They're both around the smae speed. And since both are enhanced versions of traditional superforms, they surpass them (I've said this before..). Hyperknux is another level, just admit it. To finish this (i can only post so many times, but the latest will be two days) even if knux doesn't have the M.E. he wins, and sonic holds back on everyone, so that's not special. He only stated to be serious on ultimate emerl, so everyone else was a fun, including shadow. You can call it abc logic, cause-effect whatever you like, However if you can't counter how a won't lead to b, and b to c, you still lose.

1. so wika's are "fact" ooook. well then lets use some "facts" from the wikia. " Shadow is able to run at super speeds. With his Hover Shoes, Shadow can hover-skate at supersonic speeds, even nearing that of hypersonic speeds, and is fast enough to nearly equal the speeds that Sonic can run at, making him one of the fastest characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog series. While most games places Sonic and Shadow as equals in speed"http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow the wiki says that shadow moves at supersonic speeds that's close to hypersonic. that's a "fact"and here's another "fact" " In Sonic Unleashed, the checkpoint posts (Star Posts) also act as radars that clock Sonic's speed when he passes them. Due to the fact that his speed increases the longer he's boosting, it's possible for the checkpoint posts to show Sonic's max speed in-game, being able to clock him going at over 2,500 mph (4,023 km/h). It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h)."http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog According to this "FACT" sonic's top in game speed is 2,500 mph then quotes a manual that could be argued to be hyperbole with the other "facts" on the wiki. Sooo is shadow faster. Based on the "FACTS"

2. Hmm interesting lets counter this with more "facts" "The rivalry has all but disappeared in some continuities, and in others, it is a sort of game between the two, actually serving as the plot for the game Sonic Rivals 2, when Knuckles tells Sonic that he needs to find Eggman, Sonic taunts him by saying that he'll beat Knuckles to Eggman, causing them to fight.Overall, they are great friends and make a great team. Next to Tails, Knuckles is also Sonic's best friend." now let's see what they say for shadow "Since they first met they have fought, argued, and tried to kill each other every time they cross paths. Anything considered competitive is suitable for their bitter arch-rivalry.Out of all the rivals Sonic faces, Shadow is the one whom he struggles most with" a fun fight with one of your best friends doesn't seem as serious as a fight to the death with your arch-rival. and if you look at sonic 3 & knuckles sonic beat knuckles before they became friends and ever since "they finish the battle tied, or something serves to interrupt the battle before its end." and let me add this for good measure "It is unknown how much faster Sonic can run beyond Mach 1, although it is variously assumed that he can."

3.I agree with the first part but lets have some more "facts" "Like most other character in the series, Knuckles is shown to be very fast on his feet, being able to run at remarkable, near-superhuman speeds, though he still not quite as fast as Sonic, Tails or Shadow. Additionally, his high speed does not seem to extend to his upper body, and he has been noted for having slow movements in combat." http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Knuckles_the_Echidna I didn't know near-superhuman speed=supersonic speed oh right it doesn't not only that be he can't even fight as fast as he runs how's he going to fight shadow with slow combat speed. according to the "facts" it doesn't look very good

4. No you didn't

5. Knuckles has slow combat is speed and is fast as a peak-human maybe faster shadow can get through his defenses (and I came with "facts" see number 3 =D ) and no he doesn't always have it with him if he did it wouldn't get stolen or broken all the time. and that doesn't matter cause in order to turn hyper you need the 7 chaos emeralds and the master emerald to turn them into super chaos emeralds he doesn't have any of those. (before you say something shadow always has a chaos emerald or fake chaos emerald) proof super knuckles is light speed. the after images are their so you know the difference super and hyper proof that he's even as fast as base sonic. I already posted "facts" that says shadow is someone sonic has to go all out against. so let me do my own abc logic KNUCKLES LOST TO EARLY EMERL SHADOW TIED WITH SEMI-ULTIMATE EMERL.

and to end it whats stopping shadow from doing this and finishing it with chaos spear =D

or teleporting like this ( 50 seconds in) =D

#65 Edited by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@oblivion360: Freaking thank you. He seriously wasn't getting it, plus sonic beated knuckles in sonic adventure as well as sonic battle.

Edit: And actually all minor sonic characters such as knuckles, cream and amy should be around mach 1-4 speeds considering how they appear to break the sound barrier in sonic advanced 2 and 3, and create afterimages. But out of amy cream and knuckles cream is the fastest, leaving allot of questions to be asked.....

#66 Posted by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Yeah I know I just wanted to make a point about using "facts" from a wiki knuckles is slower than a lot of the other characters though not the slowest but slower than the speed and flying types but probably the fastest power type. their gameplay is slower than the rest in sab, sab2, and sonic heroes. imo

#67 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

1. I already said he was supersonic (I've been knowing that, you just found that out, congrats for you :-,) and no shadow's not faster, as he is called hypersonic (in game feats don't count sherlock) and his abilities stae he is, so do some more reseach and get more facts (it states he's hypersonic RIGHT under skills and abilities, how could you miss that). 2. I'll give you fact that he and shad tried to kill each other (i forgot about that) However it doesn't change the fact that knux can hold his own against sonic and that shadow has been beaten TWICE by him, so don't act like it's just unfair against knux. And it is KNOWN that he can go multiple times the speed of sound approaching lightspeed (ultimate emerls profile on the wiki) and is def in hypersonic range (in almost every game and on the same wikia you glanced over) so you're wrong. 3 i already know that quote, so that's not new and heres a "fact" for you, sonic was moving and spersonic speeds during the sonic heroes hero cutscene (the wiki states he can move just as fast forwards as backwards, so check that out too while you're gathering "facts") and knux was right behind him, meaning he's supersonic, so you're wrong, again. And he has quick reflexes and tagged sonic, so he can tag shad. 4. Look again. 5 superhuman can range from barely past peak human to hypersonic, and since i proved he can move supersonic speeds (see 3 ;-) ) your point is wrong. And yes he does, how else would he guard it. And no you don't need the emeralds, check the hyperknux wikia, You'll see for yourself . And proof he's lightspeed, huh, i'd like to refer you to the transformation wiki. And the afterimages represent an increase in speed, and hypersonic does too, PROOF BROUGHT. He lost to emerl based on the reasons i listed, sp try again and do.more research.

#68 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: 1. In game feats don't count? then that makes shadow win even more..... plus if i recall correctly volcanic dunk is a in game feat......

2.If shadow and sonic are trying to kill each other,(take note shadow is the only one out of his group of rivals that he actually the most seriously) while sonic plays around with knuckles.... what makes you think that knuckles can beat shadow? sonic and shadow went all out against each other. Sonic barely tries when he is fighting knuckles. Thats why he said in sonic battle that knuckles has allot of power but he is simple to read. Meaning if emerl who was in early combat stages could read his moves, someone like shadow who was designed for combat could easily take down knuckles while reading his movement. Knuckles is basically no different from krillin from dbz or nappa. both get their asses hand to them on occasion...... knuckles got defeated so many times, he should have a own count....(once in sonic 3/sonic and knuckles, multiple times in sonic battle, another time in sonic adventure, again in sonic the fighters, and several occasions by eggman via trickery, knuckles even got beat by blaze to a certain extent.)

3. He wasn't behind him, he was on the plane when sonic was doing that. And didn't you say that in game feats don't count? and if i recall correctly, sonic advance 2 and 3 sonic was far far faster than he was. same goes for sonic adventure and sonic adventure 2. The fact that he could keep up with him in sonic heroes was a mechanic, because based on feats knuckles is nowhere near his speeds, and in later games he is shown lagging behind. Tagging sonic is not a big deal because that won't change the fact that shadow is better in combat.

4. Actually you didn't it was speculation, sonic is the one always joking around with knuckles, it was shown..... Sonic is the one who beats him all the time, and casually jokes around right after. If sonic stated that his moves were simple to read, that means he barely had trouble fighting knuckles.....

5. The afterimages? not really, knuckles, cream, and amy and tails can all break the sound barrier,(they all shown afterimages as well after breaking it.) but still cannot move at the speeds sonic can..... So i really don't see how the afterimages prove anything when after images can be created once someone hits mach 1-3 speeds. Emerl beated knuckles three times within the story, along with everyone else in the cast of sonic battle.(twice when knuckles was pissed off once when he was challenged to a straight up match) Shadow told him to beat everyone he fought in combat again before fighting him, and he beated sonic, tails, amy, cream, rouge, KNUCKLES, and sonic in matches. Then went to go fight shadow. So that debunks all your credibility on knuckles skill level. And can i see the reasons you listed for his loss against emerl again? Because his losses does not change the fact that he is easily beaten by his opponents due to his style of fighting and his temper, the games has shown this so many times its not funny...... You still have not gave anybody a clear way of how he counters this.

Let alone the craploads of abilities in his arsenal.....

#69 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

1. I'll give you that, i mispoke, my mistake. I mean if it is a part of game mechanics. Im at work now, but I'll explain the rest later.

#70 Posted by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Thank you sir you made every point that i was going to make.

I would've been a little sarcastic but thats pretty much what I would've said

#71 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (11100 posts) - - Show Bio

Archie Knuckles would beat Archie Shadow.

#72 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio
#73 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (11100 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: I used to have all the Archie Sonic comics on my computer...but it broke :(... All I can say is that Archie Knuckles was a lot better than Archie Shadow and I think IIRC that Knuckles actually beat him somewhere... don't quote me on that though.

#74 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6464 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow...

#75 Posted by 18hunt (2948 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow

#76 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

#

Back!! @oblivion360 you can save your sarcasm, because much like you "facts" they were not to be taken seriously (ex sonic running 2500 mph in game, not only did I already know that, but it goes along with what I was saying, sonic is hypersonic and because he is he can run 2500 miles and beyond, just because it's his limit in game doesn't mean its his top speed, especially if he is stated to go beyond that. and sonic NEARING hypersonic, which just proved my point of him not being on Sonic's level. It seems Your only valid point was sonic and shadow's die hard battles, so if I were you, I'd keep the sarcasm to a minimum). @deathhero61 I appreciate you patience and your logic, unlike most shad fans who say he runs light speed (dafaq!?) and blitzes knux, I am actually enjoying this. Now back to the battle 1. you're right, my mistake. Knux can use volcanic dunk 2. I think knuckles can take shadow because shadow is not as fast as sonic, and even though sonic doesn't give it his all with knuckles, he doesn't take knuckles lightly and moves at the same speeds he moves with shadow (sonic may not choose to take advantage of knux like he would shadow though). I think emerl won because of the variety he possessed, not so much his raw skills. His moves can make him vulnerable, but only to those who give themselves time to study them, and shadow doesn't have that time. proof? here it is (what a "fact" is supposed to look like) "Despite being a powerhouse in close combat, as stated by Sonic, most of Knuckles' fighting moves are slow and easy to read, making Knuckles more vulnerable to those who give themselves times to read his moves". Knux is easy to read for sonic because he's fought him multiple times and is faster than shadow, the same may not apply for shadow, plus knux got beaten by emerl the second time when he was very "emotional" (ex: This behavior infuriated Knuckles, and he fought Emerl, but was defeated" and was holding back both times he lost "Now alone, Knuckles told Emerl that he intended to settle his score with him for good, and fought him at full strength" he faired much better when focused. 3 You misunderstand, he teleported behind him (appeared behind him). In sonic heroes sonic wasn't going all out, but it is known that he was going supersonic speeds (," and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes") and that's around shadow's level (that's not a mechanic, one because cutscenes are legit and factual and two if it was it wouldn't have been referenced to as a testament of his speed, him lagging is), so he won't be blitzed. and knuckles has dealt with tougher that shadow h2h wise (nocturnus clan, sonic himself, armies of robots nonstop, etc.) so I wouldn't say shadow is better. 4. I'll give you that, he jokes around a lot, but he still tries and it says he has been able to stalemate sonic on multiple occasions, not sure what occasions or whether joking or not they found it worthy to note, and so do I. he must have been trying if they used it as a feat. Again he's easy to read because he's fought him plenty of times (and is hypersonic), shad doesn't have that luxury, so we can't assume that. 5. the afterimages signify a boost in speed, not neccesarily breaking the sound barrier. ex hyper sonic (who is more enhanced than super sonic, who in turn is lightspeed ) makes afterimages, does that mean he's supersonic, no. it means there is an increase in speed, in hyper Sonic's case the breaking of the light speed barrier. super knux is lightspeed because of this, you remember that super barrier on sonic heroes right? That was light speed (as it preformed light speed attack with super sonic), and since that barrier was inferior and imitated his super form, it is only logical to assume he is light speed or right under it. and since hyper knux (who btw only need the M.E. to transform http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Knuckles) increases that speed even more, meaning faster than lightspeed, meaning faster than super shadow. his attitude may have been a problem earlier on, but now it is better restrained "he has also learned to use it to his advantage by channeling it into fighting whoever might be threatening his friends or his home" and "While he still displays some aggressive, headstrong and stubborn behavior, he is shown being better to acknowledge his shortcomings and displays more personal restraint..." and thast not a problem now. there's your counter

#77 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

#

Back!! @oblivion360 you can save your sarcasm, because much like you "facts" they were not to be taken seriously (ex sonic running 2500 mph in game, not only did I already know that, but it goes along with what I was saying, sonic is hypersonic and because he is he can run 2500 miles and beyond, just because it's his limit in game doesn't mean its his top speed, especially if he is stated to go beyond that. and sonic NEARING hypersonic, which just proved my point of him not being on Sonic's level. It seems Your only valid point was sonic and shadow's die hard battles, so if I were you, I'd keep the sarcasm to a minimum). @deathhero61 I appreciate you patience and your logic, unlike most shad fans who say he runs light speed (dafaq!?) and blitzes knux, I am actually enjoying this. Now back to the battle 1. you're right, my mistake. Knux can use volcanic dunk 2. I think knuckles can take shadow because shadow is not as fast as sonic, and even though sonic doesn't give it his all with knuckles, he doesn't take knuckles lightly and moves at the same speeds he moves with shadow (sonic may not choose to take advantage of knux like he would shadow though). I think emerl won because of the variety he possessed, not so much his raw skills. His moves can make him vulnerable, but only to those who give themselves time to study them, and shadow doesn't have that time. proof? here it is (what a "fact" is supposed to look like) "Despite being a powerhouse in close combat, as stated by Sonic, most of Knuckles' fighting moves are slow and easy to read, making Knuckles more vulnerable to those who give themselves times to read his moves". Knux is easy to read for sonic because he's fought him multiple times and is faster than shadow, the same may not apply for shadow, plus knux got beaten by emerl the second time when he was very "emotional" (ex: This behavior infuriated Knuckles, and he fought Emerl, but was defeated" and was holding back both times he lost "Now alone, Knuckles told Emerl that he intended to settle his score with him for good, and fought him at full strength" he faired much better when focused. 3 You misunderstand, he teleported behind him (appeared behind him). In sonic heroes sonic wasn't going all out, but it is known that he was going supersonic speeds (," and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes") and that's around shadow's level (that's not a mechanic, one because cutscenes are legit and factual and two if it was it wouldn't have been referenced to as a testament of his speed, him lagging is), so he won't be blitzed. and knuckles has dealt with tougher that shadow h2h wise (nocturnus clan, sonic himself, armies of robots nonstop, etc.) so I wouldn't say shadow is better. 4. I'll give you that, he jokes around a lot, but he still tries and it says he has been able to stalemate sonic on multiple occasions, not sure what occasions or whether joking or not they found it worthy to note, and so do I. he must have been trying if they used it as a feat. Again he's easy to read because he's fought him plenty of times (and is hypersonic), shad doesn't have that luxury, so we can't assume that. 5. the afterimages signify a boost in speed, not neccesarily breaking the sound barrier. ex hyper sonic (who is more enhanced than super sonic, who in turn is lightspeed ) makes afterimages, does that mean he's supersonic, no. it means there is an increase in speed, in hyper Sonic's case the breaking of the light speed barrier. super knux is lightspeed because of this, you remember that super barrier on sonic heroes right? That was light speed (as it preformed light speed attack with super sonic), and since that barrier was inferior and imitated his super form, it is only logical to assume he is light speed or right under it. and since hyper knux (who btw only need the M.E. to transform http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Knuckles) increases that speed even more, meaning faster than lightspeed, meaning faster than super shadow. his attitude may have been a problem earlier on, but now it is better restrained "he has also learned to use it to his advantage by channeling it into fighting whoever might be threatening his friends or his home" and "While he still displays some aggressive, headstrong and stubborn behavior, he is shown being better to acknowledge his shortcomings and displays more personal restraint..." and thast not a problem now. there's your counter

sir first off, please organize your stuff in paragraphs at least, so it can be easier to read. Second off.

1. He Is just nearly close to sonic when it comes to speed, thats why in every battle, they are usually neck in neck.

2. How do you know this?

3. When knuckles first fought emerl, all he had was a few of sonic's moves. And i just double checked, he defeated him twice, in the same time period when emerl just started, so that means emerl beated knuckles four times! (first time, when knuckles was suspicious of him, second time, right after the first match, he wanted a rematch after he realized he had sonic's moves and started getting more serious, third time, was when emerl just randomly pissed him off, and the fourth time was when shadow said to go beat everyone in a fight then to come back to him.) Meaning, despite everything, knuckles should have had a chance to adapt to his "variety of skills" and properly beat him.(he beated emerl once or twice in a sparring match, but thats it.)

4. Emerl fought him and beated him on his first try so that is irrelevant.

5. "plus knux got beaten by emerl the second time when he was very "emotional" Hilarious, i just stated that because of his fighting style and his harsh way of not thinking, he is always beaten, haven't you notice, that when he is fighting others and when he misses, or someone gets some good blows in, he gets angrier? The sonic x incarnation of sonic vs knuckles is a good example, you should check it out. And actually, the chances of knuckles tagging shadow is unlikely. He is far faster than him, like i said several times.

6. To those that give themsevles time to. If emerl, who was in his development stages could do it, then tell me, how come a genetically structured combat weapon cannot do the same?

7. " and was holding back both times he lost" Knuckles never holds back when he fights, its in his personality. and look at 5 and 3.

Again show me proof that he can predict where shadow is going to be in regards to teleportation. If not then your entire argumentation is going to crumble and lose credibility.

8. "In sonic heroes sonic wasn't going all out, but it is known that he was going supersonic speeds (," and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes") and that's around shadow's level (that's not a mechanic, one because cutscenes are legit and factual and two if it was it wouldn't have been referenced to as a testament of his speed" Wait, you got that from the wiki, so how can you be so dang sure he was moving at supersonic speeds? That means planes can move at supersonic speeds now? Anyway, it is a mechanic since its a contradiction to his actual showcases in speed. By that logic then big the goddang cat(who was a slow mofo in sonic adventure) can move at sonic speeds as well as amy and cream who only showed speeds of mach 1-4, sonic based on resources can go up to mach 10, shadow at the time this was stated, was equal in speed with sonic, mach 10 is massively hypersonic. Not super sonic. There is a large difference. I could elaborate but im moving on to my next point.

9. " knuckles has dealt with tougher that shadow h2h wise (nocturnus clan, sonic himself, armies of robots nonstop, etc.) so I wouldn't say shadow is better" Semi-ultimate emerl was stronger than all those guys,(and he fought him without his emerald therefore decreasing his power.) Sonic and shadow are equal in most prospects except speed, nearly all top tiers of the sonic universe has taken down armies of robots, besides shadow took down an army of mephiles, fought iblis trigger IIRC and even fought alien invaders, demons of all kinds, also took down robot armies, and has constantly gave sonic a run for his money. When shadow obtains a losing streak like knuckles come back to me, because again like i said his arsenal is far too powerful for knuckles to handle AND AGAIN FOR THE LAST TIME, HOW IS HE COUNTERING CHAOS CONTROL. LET ALONE THE OTHER DIFFERENT TIME/SPACE MANIPULATION ABILITIES HE HAS SHOWCASED??

10. " I'll give you that, he jokes around a lot, but he still tries and it says he has been able to stalemate sonic on multiple occasions, not sure what occasions or whether joking or not they found it worthy to note, and so do I. he must have been trying if they used it as a feat. Again he's easy to read because he's fought him plenty of times (and is hypersonic), shad doesn't have that luxury, so we can't assume that." The wiki also states that and i quote: "As such, Shadow possesses many of the same skills and abilities as Sonic has, along with greater raw power than Sonic, making Shadow one of the most powerful characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog series." and "With his Hover Shoes, Shadow can hover-skate at supersonic speeds, even nearing that of hypersonic speeds, and is fast enough to nearly equal the speeds that Sonic can run at" and "While it is unknown how fast Shadow actually is without using his Hover Shoes, it has been hinted that Shadow can still move at speeds rivaling that of Sonic's, but he simply prefers not to" and "Shadow's fighting style focuses on direct, brutal, unrestrained and powerful hand-to-hand combat, with heavy reliance on his Chaos Powers. In line with his nature and potent abilities, Shadow has adopted a fighting style where he fights his opponents using powerful blows, such as karate chops and roundhouse kicks, to which of his attacks have a significant amount of force behind them. With the speeds Shadow can move at, he can disable the opponent through the force of his blows alone, while leaving them at the mercy at his incoming attacks" oh and let me get one more thing from the wiki:

"Shadow's arch-rival is none other than Sonic the Hedgehog. They became enemies when meeting in Sonic Adventure 2, but later became bitter arch-rivals. Shadow and Sonic's rivalry can be fierce enough to the point of trying to kill each other"

"Shadow and Sonic frequently fight due to their own views on justice and morality, and how to act on them. Each does not care what the other thinks of those views. In a sense, the two hedgehogs are polar opposites in every way except their appearance. Almost every time they meet, they battle ferociously. Neither is ever willing to accept defeat."

You see the difference in how he treats shadow and how he treats knuckles in a fight? Sonic knows that shadow can be a potential threat due to the fact that he does what he wants, and actually does things that serve his purpose or goal only. He does not do it because its right or wrong. thats why he is considered neutral when it comes to alignment, or in another perspective, a anti-hero. And even if shadow gets beaten by sonic, shadow is the biggest threat to sonic out of all his rivals, why do you think he had so much trouble with him in the first place in sonic adventure 2? why do you think HE became a rival to fight and not knuckles in generations?

. the afterimages signify a boost in speed, not neccesarily breaking the sound barrier. ex hyper sonic (who is more enhanced than super sonic, who in turn is lightspeed ) makes afterimages, does that mean he's supersonic, no. it means there is an increase in speed, in hyper Sonic's case the breaking of the light speed barrier. super knux is lightspeed because of this, you remember that super barrier on sonic heroes right? That was light speed (as it preformed light speed attack with super sonic), and since that barrier was inferior and imitated his super form, it is only logical to assume he is light speed or right under it. and since hyper knux (who btw only need the M.E. to transform http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Knuckles) increases that speed even more, meaning faster than lightspeed, meaning faster than super shadow.

No they don't, even if they do that does not mean he is light speed. Now it seems you are using power scaling. Knuckles never shown a super form, either way he was never known for his speed, so thats a bad thing to go off on. Its only logical? no its not, BTW super sonic distributed his energy to knuckles, for all we know knuckles gained some of sonic's speed...... and how do you know its inferior? now you are using baseless speculation, plus knuckles does not get master emerald or super emeralds to go super in this fight in the first place. Shadow always has his green chaos emerald, which further increases his powers, and with a chaos emerald shadow can go dark or good and gain the advantages from them. Dark gives him a large increase in power and durability(he was bullet proof when he went dark shadow.) and when in good gives him invincibility and a larger scale utilization of chaos control.... Therefore making him untouchable since time is heavily slowed down..... He also has inhibitor rings to further increase his powers, now combine everything i already brought up and combine it with inhibitor removal.

Nice counter(Sarcasm) BUT AGAIN WHERE IS THE COUNTER FOR SHADOW'S ARSENAL?!? In fact look at shadow's list of abilities yourself.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow

#78 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: first off (sir?), if you have trouble reading that sounds like a personal problem, get the message and move on but to be nice, I'll play along.

1.they may be neck and neck, but it is known that sonic is much faster than him, they may have been even before (before sonic battle, as when he fought ultimate emerl he said it was "time to stop holding back" meaning that during his fights with shad, he held back, at least in sonic battle) but now they are no longer even (explaining from why then on shadow is stated to be slower), so they are no longer neck and neck, sorry. 2. I say that because ge beat emerl in power, could handle the speed (sonic), and anything he could throw at him, so it could be plausible to assume it was variety that got the best of him, much more logical than speed or any of your points. 3. First and second are understandable, he didn't expect taht the first time, second he was already worn down, third time he was emotional, and last time was understandable. So no, i think it was based on ignorance and surprise the first two time and as he got used it he faured better (explaining his wins) and lost to emerl lastly fair and square, not even using his abilities (thunder arrow, meteor strikes, defenses, etc.) Like shadow did, and kbux can use them here. 4. It was out of surprise, so that's irrelevant, because he knows shad.

5. He's gotten better, and has ways to regroup (fire barrier, volcanic dunk) and has mellowed out more. Sonix x isn't canon so it's not worth my time :-,

#79 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61:

5. and no he is not several times faster than him, that is false. both (him and knux) are supersonic.:-\

6. emerl could do it because he has something that shadow doesn't, the element of surprise and variety.

7. not true, he does hold back apparently, as he said it "and fought him at full strength"(knuckles the echidna, sonic wikia under sonic battle) himself, how are you going to argue with his words?

8.how can I be sure he was going supersonic speeds,.... BEAUSE I SEEN IT AND IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE WIKIA (and tails created it, you shouldn't be shocked as I was more o a jet than a plane)!!! and did you just say a cutscene was a mechanic, kill yourself. WHY WOULD A LEGIT WIKIA BASE INFORMATION ABOUT SPEED OFF CUTSCENES IF THEY WEREN'T RELIABLE!?? and if any was STATED to be moving at those speeds and big was keeping up, then yeah he would be, but that's stupid. and "based on resources" sonic wasn't stated to be hypersonic until post 2006, and after that game he is stated to be hypersonic, but by then they say he is slower than sonic, so you're wrong, again.

9. semi ultimate emerl had the surprise tactic, its he only was logical way he could have beaten him. "are equal in most prospects EXCEPT speed" and that's why he loses (it's the only edge sonic had, so shadow will not fare as well). now I'm going to explain knuckles can counter C.C. ONE MORE TIME SO OPEN YOUR FRIGGIN EYES AND ABSORB THE KNOWLEDGE I AM BOMBARDING YOUR SKULL!!! HE CAN COUNTER CHAOS CONTROL WITH VOLCANIC DUNK (AND DON'T GIVE ME HE'S NO FAST ENOUGH CRAP BECAUSE I HAVE GIVEN SUPERSONIC FEATS AND HE CAN SENSE HE CHAOS ENERGY BUILD-UP BEFOREHAND) WHICH WILL PROHIBIT PHYSICAL ATTACKS AND HINDER VISION SO CHAOS SPEAR WON'T HIT DEAD ON, Got all that, good. And here's a fact for you "it is shown that while Sonic is becoming faster and more honed than Shadow is getting stronger and more destructive..." shadow is not as fast, its his chaos abilities that keep him from getting owned, and knuckles has a way to defend and negate them, so he's at a disadvantage here, and what's to stop knuckles from using powerflash and ending the match right there, answer that.

10. I already knew all of that, get some facts that actually help your case "nearing hypersonic speeds" (near is the key word buddy) "fast enough to nearly equal the speeds that sonic can run at" (sonic can run at hypersonic speeds, that's what he can nearly equal, that hypersonic zone), "Shadow's fighting style focuses on direct, brutal, unrestrained and powerful hand-to-hand combat, with heavy reliance on his Chaos Powers. In line with his nature and potent abilities, Shadow has adopted a fighting style where he fights his opponents using powerful blows, such as karate chops and roundhouse kicks, to which of his attacks have a significant amount of force behind them. With the speeds Shadow can move at, he can disable the opponent through the force of his blows alone, while leaving them at the mercy at his incoming attacks" (means nothing, just explains his style of fighting, knuckles fights with powerpacked blows that keep you in a deadly combo, and with a deadly amount of momentum out of each blow, so what does that mean in this fight, absolutely nothing. so.... fail. And I already know of the rivalry, but considering that he fought shadow in sonic battle and held back (he stated he had to go all out to beat ultimate emerl, an opponent way out of shadow's league and speed) I don't doubt he holds back other times too, after all, shadow is only supersonic.

11. yes it does, and he is light speed, (I am power scaling based off of feats, which is a logical thing to go off of) and you can't don't know whether he did or not, all I know is that they were going light speed and knuckles can us he M.E. to achieve light speed (emerald power is identical to the super shield, including speed (sonic retro under emerald power), so saying super knux is light speed is not far fetched, especially if I give a reference. and it's inferior because it was split between three people, and super knuckles has that same energy all in him, so it's not baseless, wrong again. who said he doesn't have the M.E. he, keeps it with him by shrinking it out of sight, look it up (wow, you need to do serious research) and emerald power could take out both positive and negative empowerments (I've played the game, I wasn't that impressed) because of his superior durability (unless you think inhibless positive shad could take a super form who has both positive and negative energy and has takes attacks while in chaos control without too much damage (from METAL OVERLOD FOR GOODNESS SAKES!!)). He would own shadow, hands down.

"nice counter" well I wish I could say the same about yours (:-P) but I can't I know. I know all of his abilities from chaos rift (knux coul sense it and evade, chaos fueled punches, chaos lance, chaos boost, inhib removed, etc. and I still say knux wins. during my next post i'll help you on your ignorance of knuckles, because you clearly are

@oblivion360

1. ok, but your sarcasm was not needed (I don't do well with that). no they say he's supersonic and they back it up with him keeping up with sonic (I admitted to my mistake and said game mechanic don't btw) early in the series, but when he approached hypersonic they changed that "it is shown that while Sonic is becoming faster and more honed.." sonic is growing in speed, that's why it varies (and they say he can travel light speed when rolled up, not regularly and yes I did, but he is closing the gap according to omega on sonic colors (check trivia)).

2. the first time was a shocker, the second he was worn down from fighting, while emerl was not. and shadow doesn't have moves from different people, his moves are chaos based, and knuckles would fare well with his sensing of it, and can negate it if it gets to him.

3. superhuman means above human means (i've already considered that quote, and this is my premise based on the other data I've seen, ), and supersonic is above human means, its a bit atypical, but since he is shown as supersonic on sonic heroes (opening cutscene) it all works. my gospel is legit, so if he can tag sonic, he can tag shadow (and shadow and sonic are on two diff levels of speed, so what's slow to sonic may not be slow to shadow) and knuckles is stated to have fast reflexes. moral of the story, he's supersonic.

4. I took that back, I said during the first battle I seemed like ignorance, afterwards it was either emotion or variety (ex when knuckles got serious, emerl had multiple moves from various people, so he didn't know what to expect, a powerful punch like his or a swift kick like Sonic's). his chaos punches were cool, but knuckles has high durability and can increase his own strikes with fire and earth elements.

5. Actually I have facts, and when those fact can help you come to a conclusion, why no use them? the super forms have their abilities stated on the sonic wikia (look up super sonic) and the creator's input is not needed, after all the games speak for themselves (but when something is vague, it will usually be under the trivia). the super forms have their speed listed on the website (the newer games such as sab2 they'll usually say things in the background, facts about the form ex sonic uses light speed attack in sab2 and in sonic heroes (which in game states the attack is light speed), and when he goes super sonic on sonic heroes he can use this attack without that item meaning that not only is it stated, it is shown he is light speed). and there is no such thing as Sonic's power, it was just chaos energy, he gave them chaos energy (and that energy varies with the user, its why knuckles could use fire attacks and tails electric attacks) so that was just him moving light speed, under his own power. and the master emerald can make him go hyper knuckles (I've played the game, and I truly do get what you're saying, but check this out), on the wikia (under hyper knux) it states that he can achieve that form using the M.E. " that is gained when he taps into the power of seven Super Emeralds and 50 rings or the Master Emerald.". since th gathering of 50 rings is game mechanic, he can transform using the other means, the M.E. and yes I did answer that, again his sensing of chaos energy (sab2) and a fire barrier to keep him back, he may not be as fast, but he can stop it before it happens thanks to his connection to the M.E.

knux has projectiles too btw Thunder arrow(lightning), meteors (sonic battle) defenses (knuckle slam(fire barrier, sonic rivals) volcanic dunk), earth empowerment (sonic battle), fire punches (no need to explain, you know this), M.E. manipulations, digging (for a sneak attack), and power flash (stops time) what's to keep him from doing the same to shadow?

#80 Edited by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman: I can finally start posting again. Before I start it seems my point about wiki's went over your head well whatever doesn't matter.

1. the whole point of my post was that getting "facts" from wiki's. the creator of the wiki at one point admits he doesn't know how fast sonic is but he use's feats from the game (which you say doesn't count) to tell you how fast he is. but for shadow there is no feats they just make a guess saying he's supersonic nearing hypersonic with nothing to back it up and on that same page says that he can move at speeds nearing sonic. they even think sonic can move at light speed because of the light speed attack and dash (which reminds me didn't you say that sonic is hypersonic and nearing light speed do you know how massive a difference between the two is hypersonc speeds range from mach 5 (3,840 mph) to mach 10 (7,680 mph) light moves at 671 million mph if you want to put it in mach its mach 873697.9 how is that close) moves that shadow can do as well. we can use the wiki as a source of info but it should be taken with a grain of salt. and to tell the truth they're not very kind to knuckles on their and i'm going to use it to my advantage since you take it as gospel.

2. "I think knuckles can take shadow because shadow is not as fast as sonic, and even though sonic doesn't give it his all with knuckles, he doesn't take knuckles lightly and moves at the same speeds he moves with shadow (sonic may not choose to take advantage of knux like he would shadow though)" this sounds like an assumption and assumptions are no-no's. after emerl beat him the first time knuckles stated that he fights like sonic and then lost again right after. "I think emerl won because of the variety he possessed, not so much his raw skills. His moves can make him vulnerable," if knuckles has problems with variety then how is he going to handle shadow that has such a variety of moves and the skill to use them to the best of their abilities.

3. you do know that there is a post on the wiki that you take as gospel that contradicts this "Like most other character in the series, Knuckles is shown to be very fast on his feet, being able to run at remarkable, near-superhuman speeds, though he still not quite as fast as Sonic, Tails or Shadow." meaning he's peak human in speed maybe faster but definitely not supersonic or even subsonic and "Additionally, his high speed does not seem to extend to his upper body, and he has been noted for having slow movements in combat." not only is his speed comparable to captain america (which is fast but compared to the sonicvers not so much) he can't even fight at the same speed. his wiki page makes it a point to state how incredibly slow he is and you say he's comparable to shadow when your gospel says otherwise.

How is he going to fight shadow when he has slow combat speed (reflexes/reaction time/ and striking speed) when shadow's page says "Due to Shadow's natural high speeds, Shadow is highly acrobatic, agile and an experienced athlete, capable of gracefully leaping over many obstacles that comes in his way and performing various forms of nimble movements. He has as well radical reaction time to match his movements, being able to react to danger within a split second" according to your info source knuckles can't even touch shadow.

4. he got beat by emerl the first time emerl fought him. according to his wiki page he's slow and has even slower combat speed. and according to you he lost because he can't handle variety. shadow and sonic's fighting styles are different while sonic is a little straight forward relying heavily on his superior speed shadow uses his speed and his chaos control abilities to distort time and space while he's hitting you just look at his moves in sonic battle

5. this entire post is filled with power scaling that has no real proof. the super forms increase their abilities, by how much exactly? did you get this info from the creator himself? when you went super and hyper did the game stop and tell you how fast it made the characters? I really want to know. that barrier in heroes was sonic's power knuckles and tails were hanging on sonic's coat tail. and you need to play sonic and knuckles again cause in order to go hyper you need the 7 chaos emeralds AND the master emerald which he doesn't have not even the master emerald because if he had it with him all the timehe would have no reason to be in sonic and knuckles, sonic adventure, sonic adventure 2, sonic rivals. and sonic rivals 2. and you still didn't answer this (for the 4th time this is posted) whats stopping shadow from doing this

and (this for the second time) teleporting around him like this 50 seconds in

#81 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey guys, i think we're doing this wrong. We're going into the complex things (such as chaos abilities) and we can't even agree on the basics (such as speed) so i'm going to start over (you don't have to respond to that, though you can use it as a reference if you want) ill start by stating knux abilities.

strength=100+ tons, speed= supersonic (based on sonic heroes cut scene), durability= not sure, but he's superior to shadow (based on stats of sonic battle and the and the dark brotherhood), projectiles- thunder arrow(lightning), meteors (sonic battle) defenses- knuckle slam(fire barrier, sonic rivals) and volcanic dunk, earth empowerment (sonic battle), fire punches (no need to explain, you know this), M.E. manipulation, digging (for a sneak attack), and power flash (stops time).

I think he can take this with master emerald manipulation, chant, or hyper knuckles.

#83 Posted by fadadio (9 posts) - - Show Bio

No this has gone on too long.

The series made by none other than Sonic team itself...I present to you the video that is....THE END THREAD!

#84 Edited by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

I'll tone down the sarcasm my apologies.

1. so when did sonic hit hypersonic speed's then. in the 2006 game (worst sonic game ever). but in sonic adventure dx manual states that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" and in sonic battle it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound,(and in that game shadow was stated to be faster "Shadow is faster than Sonic in this game, but his battle card states it's because his Air Shoes propel himself faster." http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Battle) which is mach 7 mid hypersonic speeds these are the only feats that put sonic at hyperaonic speeds and during the time he got these feats shadow was equal to or faster than him in the speed department. if they think he can move at light speed when rolled up so can shadow since he can use the moves that let them think that.

2. "the first time was a shocker, the second he was worn down from fighting, while emerl was not." this doesn't do well for knuckles endurance stamina and durability. how is he going to negate being hit with chaos empowered attacks, is he immune to chaos energy?

3. where are you getting superhuman from? "Like most other character in the series, Knuckles is shown to be very fast on his feet, being able to run at remarkable, NEAR-superhuman speeds" which is basically PEAK-HUMAN speed. and the worst of it is that it makes him one of the slowest characters in the game just above big's the cat. look at amy "like most characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog series, Amy is able to run at super speeds,"http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Amy_Rose tails "Like many of the other characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog series, Tails is able to move at super speeds without the need of his twin tails." http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Miles_%22Tails%22_Prower blaze "Like many other characters in the Sonic series, Blaze is able to run at super speed, though she is still not as fast as Sonic or Shadow." http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Blaze_the_Cat do you see where i'm getting at everyone else is SUPER SPEED while knuckles is NEAR-SUPERHUMAN SPEED. and he has slow combat speed so he can't even fight with the little speed he's got. and when has he tagged sonic if your talking about sonic adventure you do know they ran right into each other and they were moving slow right.

"and shadow and sonic are on two diff levels of speed, so what's slow to sonic may not be slow to shadow" Knuckles was considered slow to sonic before he was as fast as he was in sonic adventure 2. And even if we say sonic didn't start getting faster until shadow appeared knuckles lost to sonic multiple times, he lost in sonic the hedgehog 3, sonic and knuckles, sonic triple trouble, sonic the fighters (a fighting game), sonic R (a racing game), and lost to blaze the cat when they first met. and the wiki states "Over time, Knuckles began to lose some of his speed, but also gain a lot more power."http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Knuckles_the_Echidna knuckles just get slower and his fast reflexes comes from doing tricks not combat situations. "Knuckles is also shown to have sharp reflexes and acrobatic skills, being able to do special tricks and movements while in mid-air, though he is not nearly as acrobatic as Sonic or Shadow are, nor can he jump very high."

4. "I took that back, I said during the first battle I seemed like ignorance, afterwards it was either emotion or variety when knuckles got serious, emerl had multiple moves from various people, so he didn't know what to expect, a powerful punch like his (EX or a swift kick like Sonic's)" this statement really diminishes knuckles combat skill's I know the punch and kick thing was an example but really martial arts is all about a variety of moves and skills. they use their different moves and techniques strike their opponent and counter moves. If a master of one style of fighting fights some one how has knowledge of multiple forms but isn't a master of any then the master would win.if knuckles lost because of the variety then he is not a master martial artist I wouldn't even call him a martial artist he'd be a street brawler at best. Where as shadow is a master, as taken from the wiki "In combat, Shadow is dangerous and fierce force that few can defeat directly.... To best put his skills in perspective, as seen in some of the scenarios in Shadow the Hedgehog, Shadow is only person so far who has been able to utterly defeat Sonic in combat."http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_the_Hedgehog

5. The wiki says that super sonic is light speed not super knuckles For knuckles it says his speed is enhanced and no exact speed is given its the same for the hyper forms of both sonic and knuckles it says their enhanced forms of their super state but how much stronger are they 2x 10x 100x 1.5x we don't know because they're no feats. we don't know how fast super knuckles is and we don't know how fast hyper knuckles is cause they only made one Appearance in the old games. In sonic heroes sonic went super then put a barrier around tails and knuckles while in the barrier they started floating, that was sonic's power he put a protective barrier around them and started fighting at light speed you can tell by their reaction that it was all sonic

now lets talk about the wiki it says he can transform with 7 super chaos emeralds or the master emerald on the hyper knuckles page but on that same page under transformation overview cause of transformation it says the 7 super emeralds and thats it nothing else and on knuckles page under transformations it says "In Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, Knuckles can also transform into an extended version of Super Knuckles, called Hyper Knuckles with the seven Super Emeralds." nothing about the master emerald and on the super transformation page "With the power of the Super Emeralds, Knuckles can turn into Hyper Knuckles." again nothing about the master emerald. And even if he could use it to transform he doesn't have it with him he doesn't carry it around it isn't standard gear for him if it was always with him then it wouldn't get stolen or broken look at sonic and knuckles, sonic adventure 1 and 2, sonic rivals 1 and 2, iirc dark brotherhood the last boss ether stole it or went to the alter where it was (my memory isn't clear on that one) in sonic heroes knuckles didn't want rouge to get to the master emerald and take it before he got their in sonic battle knuckles didn't have it with him it came to sonic when he needed it, and in sonic advance 3 they went to the alter to use the master emerald iirc. knuckles doesn't carry it with him.

"and yes I did answer that, again his sensing of chaos energy (sab2) and a fire barrier to keep him back," how is sensing going to help him also how is he going to use a fire barrier if shadow uses it while their in close combat or knuckles is in the middle of throwing a punch I know about all those moves and power flash is the only problem I could debate that he can't use it but ill let him keep it ( if you want to know how its because it was only used in multiplayer in sab2 and he hasn't shown the ability to do in any other game all the characters could stop time somehow in that game which doesn't make sense and its not listed as one of his attacks on his list of moves http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_techniques_used_in_Sonic_games) he can get around that by using chaos blast which is just letting out energy so no exaggerated movement is needed

#85 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@oblivion360: it's ok, i do it too :-).

1. I get what you're saying, that is pretty confusing (contradicting really). They have supersonic shadow going faster than a hypersonic capable sonic on that game, and they state shadow to be supersonic. i have pondered on this question before, and this is my premise. shadow is faster than sonic when he is holding back, but when he goes all out (sonic said it was time to stop holding back and go all out in the game) he exits supersonic and battles at hypersonic speeds (it would explain why they said him and emerl battled at multiple times the speed sound, and why sonic was the only one who stood a chance), which is out of shad's league. He's equal to sonic before he starts holding back (the sonic before he goes multiple times the speed of sound), that's why he's never stated to be hypersonic. And rolled up they said possibly, plus he has to charge energy (chaos energy i think) before that happens.

2. yeah, but he's taking a beating at sonic speed, which is pretty impressive, plus his durability is more than shad's (according to sonic battle). And good point, he is not immune to chaos energy, but he can shut it down with the chant (which is why gauging speed and defenses are key).

3. Yeah, i get your point, that is a problem... however his feats suggest he is supersonic, ex the afterimages in sonic advance, which don't get me wrong, i'm not a hypocrite and i remember my statement about it being a sign of a boost in speed) and the fact that sonic was running supersonic speeds backwards " and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes" and knux was right behind him. and i'm going based on the fact he's stalemated sonic "he has been able to fight Sonic the Hedgehog to a standstill on several occasions", so he must have tagged him. Knuckles was stated to be slow in sonic battle, where else did he say it again (may be my memory) and he didn't lose to blaze, he got knocked off guard by her speed and his anger, it wasn't a feat worthy fight. And it says knuckles has fast reflexes, period,"Knuckles is also shown to have sharp reflexes AND acrobatic skills, being able to do special tricks and movements while in mid-air..." acrobatics was added on (the part after acrobatic was to elaborate on acrobatics), it doesn't mean his reflexes are specifically for the air.

4. i see your point, and yeah i agree that he's more like luke cage than ironfist. But everyone has their own fighting style, and that includes shad. If someone starts off brutal and slow then fast and weak randomly you'll be kind of confused (like deadpool), and shadow is pretty consistent with fast and brutal, so it won't be confusing. and shadow is good (him, shadow, and blaze are the closest things to martial artists) , but not martial artist good. knuckles can take him (he's dealt with martial artist before)

5. true, they don't say it directly, however feats suggest he is. that wasn't sonic's energy, if it was they wouldn't be able to do attacks unique to them, it was just chaos energy, so since super knuckles has chaos energy he may be lightspeed. The hyper knuckles wikia states it, and its more specific than the super transformation page. but he can, ex its standard gear son sonic and sega all stars. and it may not help after the punch is thrown, but it will aid later on. powerflash (while not used a lot) was used, and since he used it then he can use it now. and yeah, but that amount of energy needed will take time to charge,and does on all of his appearences.

#86 Posted by fadadio (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow has already taken out Knuckles in Sonic X, and that was in a inclosed space that would favor Knuckles.

Shadow hands down

#87 Edited by HAVICKGREEN (222 posts) - - Show Bio

Shadow wins

1 Sonic

2 Shadow

3 Knuckles

4Silver

5 Tails

#88 Posted by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

hey guys, sonic x isn't canon, it didn't show any of his abilities outside of strength and stopping chaos emeralds. And proof that "shadow wins" being... (btw silver would beat shadow)?

#89 Edited by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61:

5. and no he is not several times faster than him, that is false. both (him and knux) are supersonic.:-\

6. emerl could do it because he has something that shadow doesn't, the element of surprise and variety.

7. not true, he does hold back apparently, as he said it "and fought him at full strength"(knuckles the echidna, sonic wikia under sonic battle) himself, how are you going to argue with his words?

8.how can I be sure he was going supersonic speeds,.... BEAUSE I SEEN IT AND IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE WIKIA (and tails created it, you shouldn't be shocked as I was more o a jet than a plane)!!! and did you just say a cutscene was a mechanic, kill yourself. WHY WOULD A LEGIT WIKIA BASE INFORMATION ABOUT SPEED OFF CUTSCENES IF THEY WEREN'T RELIABLE!?? and if any was STATED to be moving at those speeds and big was keeping up, then yeah he would be, but that's stupid. and "based on resources" sonic wasn't stated to be hypersonic until post 2006, and after that game he is stated to be hypersonic, but by then they say he is slower than sonic, so you're wrong, again.

9. semi ultimate emerl had the surprise tactic, its he only was logical way he could have beaten him. "are equal in most prospects EXCEPT speed" and that's why he loses (it's the only edge sonic had, so shadow will not fare as well). now I'm going to explain knuckles can counter C.C. ONE MORE TIME SO OPEN YOUR FRIGGIN EYES AND ABSORB THE KNOWLEDGE I AM BOMBARDING YOUR SKULL!!! HE CAN COUNTER CHAOS CONTROL WITH VOLCANIC DUNK (AND DON'T GIVE ME HE'S NO FAST ENOUGH CRAP BECAUSE I HAVE GIVEN SUPERSONIC FEATS AND HE CAN SENSE HE CHAOS ENERGY BUILD-UP BEFOREHAND) WHICH WILL PROHIBIT PHYSICAL ATTACKS AND HINDER VISION SO CHAOS SPEAR WON'T HIT DEAD ON, Got all that, good. And here's a fact for you "it is shown that while Sonic is becoming faster and more honed than Shadow is getting stronger and more destructive..." shadow is not as fast, its his chaos abilities that keep him from getting owned, and knuckles has a way to defend and negate them, so he's at a disadvantage here, and what's to stop knuckles from using powerflash and ending the match right there, answer that.

10. I already knew all of that, get some facts that actually help your case "nearing hypersonic speeds" (near is the key word buddy) "fast enough to nearly equal the speeds that sonic can run at" (sonic can run at hypersonic speeds, that's what he can nearly equal, that hypersonic zone), "Shadow's fighting style focuses on direct, brutal, unrestrained and powerful hand-to-hand combat, with heavy reliance on his Chaos Powers. In line with his nature and potent abilities, Shadow has adopted a fighting style where he fights his opponents using powerful blows, such as karate chops and roundhouse kicks, to which of his attacks have a significant amount of force behind them. With the speeds Shadow can move at, he can disable the opponent through the force of his blows alone, while leaving them at the mercy at his incoming attacks" (means nothing, just explains his style of fighting, knuckles fights with powerpacked blows that keep you in a deadly combo, and with a deadly amount of momentum out of each blow, so what does that mean in this fight, absolutely nothing. so.... fail. And I already know of the rivalry, but considering that he fought shadow in sonic battle and held back (he stated he had to go all out to beat ultimate emerl, an opponent way out of shadow's league and speed) I don't doubt he holds back other times too, after all, shadow is only supersonic.

11. yes it does, and he is light speed, (I am power scaling based off of feats, which is a logical thing to go off of) and you can't don't know whether he did or not, all I know is that they were going light speed and knuckles can us he M.E. to achieve light speed (emerald power is identical to the super shield, including speed (sonic retro under emerald power), so saying super knux is light speed is not far fetched, especially if I give a reference. and it's inferior because it was split between three people, and super knuckles has that same energy all in him, so it's not baseless, wrong again. who said he doesn't have the M.E. he, keeps it with him by shrinking it out of sight, look it up (wow, you need to do serious research) and emerald power could take out both positive and negative empowerments (I've played the game, I wasn't that impressed) because of his superior durability (unless you think inhibless positive shad could take a super form who has both positive and negative energy and has takes attacks while in chaos control without too much damage (from METAL OVERLOD FOR GOODNESS SAKES!!)). He would own shadow, hands down.

"nice counter" well I wish I could say the same about yours (:-P) but I can't I know. I know all of his abilities from chaos rift (knux coul sense it and evade, chaos fueled punches, chaos lance, chaos boost, inhib removed, etc. and I still say knux wins. during my next post i'll help you on your ignorance of knuckles, because you clearly are

@oblivion360

1. ok, but your sarcasm was not needed (I don't do well with that). no they say he's supersonic and they back it up with him keeping up with sonic (I admitted to my mistake and said game mechanic don't btw) early in the series, but when he approached hypersonic they changed that "it is shown that while Sonic is becoming faster and more honed.." sonic is growing in speed, that's why it varies (and they say he can travel light speed when rolled up, not regularly and yes I did, but he is closing the gap according to omega on sonic colors (check trivia)).

2. the first time was a shocker, the second he was worn down from fighting, while emerl was not. and shadow doesn't have moves from different people, his moves are chaos based, and knuckles would fare well with his sensing of it, and can negate it if it gets to him.

3. superhuman means above human means (i've already considered that quote, and this is my premise based on the other data I've seen, ), and supersonic is above human means, its a bit atypical, but since he is shown as supersonic on sonic heroes (opening cutscene) it all works. my gospel is legit, so if he can tag sonic, he can tag shadow (and shadow and sonic are on two diff levels of speed, so what's slow to sonic may not be slow to shadow) and knuckles is stated to have fast reflexes. moral of the story, he's supersonic.

4. I took that back, I said during the first battle I seemed like ignorance, afterwards it was either emotion or variety (ex when knuckles got serious, emerl had multiple moves from various people, so he didn't know what to expect, a powerful punch like his or a swift kick like Sonic's). his chaos punches were cool, but knuckles has high durability and can increase his own strikes with fire and earth elements.

5. Actually I have facts, and when those fact can help you come to a conclusion, why no use them? the super forms have their abilities stated on the sonic wikia (look up super sonic) and the creator's input is not needed, after all the games speak for themselves (but when something is vague, it will usually be under the trivia). the super forms have their speed listed on the website (the newer games such as sab2 they'll usually say things in the background, facts about the form ex sonic uses light speed attack in sab2 and in sonic heroes (which in game states the attack is light speed), and when he goes super sonic on sonic heroes he can use this attack without that item meaning that not only is it stated, it is shown he is light speed). and there is no such thing as Sonic's power, it was just chaos energy, he gave them chaos energy (and that energy varies with the user, its why knuckles could use fire attacks and tails electric attacks) so that was just him moving light speed, under his own power. and the master emerald can make him go hyper knuckles (I've played the game, and I truly do get what you're saying, but check this out), on the wikia (under hyper knux) it states that he can achieve that form using the M.E. " that is gained when he taps into the power of seven Super Emeralds and 50 rings or the Master Emerald.". since th gathering of 50 rings is game mechanic, he can transform using the other means, the M.E. and yes I did answer that, again his sensing of chaos energy (sab2) and a fire barrier to keep him back, he may not be as fast, but he can stop it before it happens thanks to his connection to the M.E.

knux has projectiles too btw Thunder arrow(lightning), meteors (sonic battle) defenses (knuckle slam(fire barrier, sonic rivals) volcanic dunk), earth empowerment (sonic battle), fire punches (no need to explain, you know this), M.E. manipulations, digging (for a sneak attack), and power flash (stops time) what's to keep him from doing the same to shadow?

5. Shadow is near hypersonic according to your wiki, which is what sonic is, knuckles based on feats is only a little bit over the sound barrier.

6. HE FOUGHT KNUCKLES ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, AND WON.

7. Knuckles holding back is out of character, so even if the wiki is supposedly telling the truth it would simply be CIS or PIS.

8. "how can I be sure he was going supersonic speeds,.... BEAUSE I SEEN IT AND IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE WIKIA" If thats your augmentation, then im not convinced. it seems that you are heavily relying on the wiki.

9. Thats why he loses? despite having better combat experience than both sonic and knuckles? despite being a combat genius, having ridiculously amazing close combat skills coupled with his chaos based techniques and time warping techniques? Sonic's edge against knuckles was his skill at fighting, knuckles brash and simple fighting style, and sonic's agility, these are all traits that go in shadow's favor because he has them. Chaos control is FTL as soon as its activated the speed of knuckles is 0. He won't be moving at all. He will be slowed down completely.

See that? in those instances, the target were slowed down. Knuckles is not reacting to that. And if i recall correctly wasn't sonic stated to be a embodiment of chaos?(according to your wiki) wouldn't that mean he could do anything knuckles can with chaos energy but better? and your theory is that knuckles can counter chaos control, but sonic couldn't do it. ITS ALSO STATED THAT HE IS GETTING STRONGER AS WELL. SHADOW COULD KEEP UP WITH SONIC IN FOOT RACES WHILE KNUCKLES IN LEGIT CANON CANNOT. And please stop procrastinating, show me how he negates chaos powers, if he was able to do such things he wouldn't be losing battles with rogue(who is lessed skilled in combat than shadow is.) since apparently he is a god of chaos according to you, you have not given any proof that he can sense chaos attacks or negate them in general. It seems that you are trying to be a fanboy. Whats stopping shadow from using light speed attack or spamming chaos magic or other techniques?

10. The wikia information is provided by several different people, not one person, so there will be information that contradicts one another, Sonic heroes is not a good way to gauge knuckles speeds, especially since its contradicted in later games, along with the fact that even big the freaking cat can run at supersonic to hypersonic speeds supposedly in that game.(which is ridiculous.) And since you want to use speculations and assumptions, then how about this? sonic was not going full tilt in speed in order for tails and knuckles to catch up. plus your theory of hypersonic level speeds is flawed, since sonic was not confirmed to be hypersonic until sonic unleashed. Then in sonic generations shadow was seen casually keeping up with sonic at full speed(contradicting everything about shadow not being equal in speed or near his speed in previous canon games, along with the fact that even if your theory on knuckles speed is true, that means shadow still gets the advantage sonic had.)

0:26 as you can see sonic was not going at full speed, thats why he grabbed them and sped out of the rubble. Which debunks literally everything you said so far about him even possibly in the slightest being as fast as sonic. let alone faster than shadow which your precious wiki states that he casually keeps up with sonic, and he has reached speeds close to the ones sonic goes up to which is why he keeps up with sonic in the first place.

"means nothing, just explains his style of fighting, knuckles fights with powerpacked blows that keep you in a deadly combo, and with a deadly amount of momentum out of each blow, so what does that mean in this fight, absolutely nothing. so.... fail. And I already know of the rivalry, but considering that he fought shadow in sonic battle and held back (he stated he had to go all out to beat ultimate emerl, an opponent way out of shadow's league and speed"

Actually, shadow's fighting style is exactly what you just quoted and knuckles fighting style is nothing like you are actually saying at all.(deadly momentum? they said that for shadow as well..... and the recap you were trying to do for knuckles, knuckles has low level geokinesis stated by emerl's data base and the sonic wiki, funny thing, in emerl's database shadow is faster than sonic, which mean if your theory of sonic being hypersonic still stands, than that means shadow is hypersonic due to the fact that he was faster than sonic in sonic battle, but sonic later gotten faster than him, which i won't deny. ) IF sonic himself said that knuckles fights simply, then without the benefit of the doubt he fights simple. Thats all there is too it. Whether sonic was holding back or not, shadow tied with semi-ultimate emerl who was actually just slightly below ultimate emerl,(who was simply given a override code which fused everything he learned all at once, instead of selected moves) semi-ultimate emerl had 7 chaos emeralds(shadow's emerald obviously included, meaning his powers were heavily reduced, meaning he could have possibly won, if he had his emerald.) While knuckles got his ass beat by emerl on several occasions. You say emerl had the advantage all the time because he had variety and element of surprise, but he had that on shadow, sonic, and literally the entire cast of the sonic battle game. but allot of the characters beated emerl allot more than knuckles did,( knuckles only won once or twice in a sparring match i believe when he was training him, and even fought him again and lost twice while fighting legitimately , and considering he should had known what to expect that goes on my side even more.)

So please give me a argumentation worth arguing about. Because yours is exceptionally weak.

11. " yes it does, and he is light speed, (I am power scaling based off of feats, which is a logical thing to go off of) and you can't don't know whether he did or not, all I know is that they were going light speed and knuckles can us he M.E. to achieve light speed (emerald power is identical to the super shield, including speed (sonic retro under emerald power), so saying super knux is light speed is not far fetched, especially if I give a reference. and it's inferior because it was split between three people, and super knuckles has that same energy all in him, so it's not baseless, wrong again. who said he doesn't have the M.E. he, keeps it with him by shrinking it out of sight, look it up (wow, you need to do serious research) and emerald power could take out both positive and negative empowerments (I've played the game, I wasn't that impressed) because of his superior durability (unless you think inhibless positive shad could take a super form who has both positive and negative energy and has takes attacks while in chaos control without too much damage (from METAL OVERLOD FOR GOODNESS SAKES!!)). He would own shadow, hands down."

You have shown no proof besides powerscaling which by the way cannot properly apply to the situation(power scaling only works out if its non-consistent, if the feats are inconsist then powerscaling is useless, for example, one piece, luffy was shown casually shrugging off canon balls, but yet in another episode we see him get knocked back by a punch from someone we know doesn't have that much power in the first place.) Just because its split between three people doesn't change the possible effects it doing that may happen. The thread doesn't specify whether he has it or not. Prove that he carries the M.E with him please. Because if i recall correctly, his M.E got stolen twice in sonic 3/sonic and knuckles, in sonic advance 3 he left his M.E unguarded on the altar, in sonic rivals 2 it was stolen AGAIN, and on other occasions, the master emerald was shown to left behind by knuckles on other occasions despite his duties,(this is something questioned by most fans.) and in sonic adventure he left it unguarded to go back to it, finding it shattered as soon as he chills out on it. So i highly doubt he carries it around. If you mean the occasions in sonic dark brotherhood and sonic battle when the Master emerald was somehow small? the wiki says its shape changes over time :) knuckles does not shrink it, plus even eggman has the M.E in a small box, so that means that the M.E's shape changes constantly. Plus in character knuckles does not carry the M.E unless there is a crisis that goes on that needs fixing, and thats why there were occasions where he brought the emerald himself. Shadow has survived a fall from space. I don't think you read the things i said:

"Shadow always has his green chaos emerald, which further increases his powers, and with a chaos emerald shadow can go dark or good and gain the advantages from them. Dark gives him a large increase in power and durability(he was bullet proof when he went dark shadow.) and when in good gives him invincibility and a larger scale utilization of chaos control.... Therefore making him untouchable since time is heavily slowed down..... He also has inhibitor rings to further increase his powers, now combine everything i already brought up and combine it with inhibitor removal."

"nice counter" "well I wish I could say the same about yours (:-P) but I can't I know. I know all of his abilities from chaos rift (knux coul sense it and evade, chaos fueled punches, chaos lance, chaos boost, inhib removed, etc. and I still say knux wins. during my next post i'll help you on your ignorance of knuckles, because you clearly are"

At least my argumentation is being backed up on facts and not baseless speculation and over exaggeration. Stop procrastinating, SHOW ME VISUAL EVIDENCE THAT HE CAN SENSE AND EVADE CHAOS BASED ATTACKS. Geez.

Sect. 2

1. ok, but your sarcasm was not needed (I don't do well with that). no they say he's supersonic and they back it up with him keeping up with sonic (I admitted to my mistake and said game mechanic don't btw) early in the series, but when he approached hypersonic they changed that "it is shown that while Sonic is becoming faster and more honed.." sonic is growing in speed, that's why it varies (and they say he can travel light speed when rolled up, not regularly and yes I did, but he is closing the gap according to omega on sonic colors (check trivia)).

2. the first time was a shocker, the second he was worn down from fighting, while emerl was not. and shadow doesn't have moves from different people, his moves are chaos based, and knuckles would fare well with his sensing of it, and can negate it if it gets to him.

3. superhuman means above human means (i've already considered that quote, and this is my premise based on the other data I've seen, ), and supersonic is above human means, its a bit atypical, but since he is shown as supersonic on sonic heroes (opening cutscene) it all works. my gospel is legit, so if he can tag sonic, he can tag shadow (and shadow and sonic are on two diff levels of speed, so what's slow to sonic may not be slow to shadow) and knuckles is stated to have fast reflexes. moral of the story, he's supersonic.

4. I took that back, I said during the first battle I seemed like ignorance, afterwards it was either emotion or variety (ex when knuckles got serious, emerl had multiple moves from various people, so he didn't know what to expect, a powerful punch like his or a swift kick like Sonic's). his chaos punches were cool, but knuckles has high durability and can increase his own strikes with fire and earth elements.

5. Actually I have facts, and when those fact can help you come to a conclusion, why no use them? the super forms have their abilities stated on the sonic wikia (look up super sonic) and the creator's input is not needed, after all the games speak for themselves (but when something is vague, it will usually be under the trivia). the super forms have their speed listed on the website (the newer games such as sab2 they'll usually say things in the background, facts about the form ex sonic uses light speed attack in sab2 and in sonic heroes (which in game states the attack is light speed), and when he goes super sonic on sonic heroes he can use this attack without that item meaning that not only is it stated, it is shown he is light speed). and there is no such thing as Sonic's power, it was just chaos energy, he gave them chaos energy (and that energy varies with the user, its why knuckles could use fire attacks and tails electric attacks) so that was just him moving light speed, under his own power. and the master emerald can make him go hyper knuckles (I've played the game, and I truly do get what you're saying, but check this out), on the wikia (under hyper knux) it states that he can achieve that form using the M.E. " that is gained when he taps into the power of seven Super Emeralds and 50 rings or the Master Emerald.". since th gathering of 50 rings is game mechanic, he can transform using the other means, the M.E. and yes I did answer that, again his sensing of chaos energy (sab2) and a fire barrier to keep him back, he may not be as fast, but he can stop it before it happens thanks to his connection to the M.E.

knux has projectiles too btw Thunder arrow(lightning), meteors (sonic battle) defenses (knuckle slam(fire barrier, sonic rivals) volcanic dunk), earth empowerment (sonic battle), fire punches (no need to explain, you know this), M.E. manipulations, digging (for a sneak attack), and power flash (stops time) what's to keep him from doing the same to shadow?

2. The first time, he was fighting emerl, there was no downsides on either opponents table, knuckles was fighting a new opponent, someone with a few of sonic's moves, that were not even full power in comparison to sonic's.(the reason for that is because of the established link, it gave him a swift scan and copied sonic's skills but did not give him sonic's full power, which is why he had to be trained by sonic and everyone else, the fact that emerl was in such a weak state and knuckles lost shows allot.) the second time, he was up and aware that he was fighting a strange opponent, so he started to fight more fiercely, the third and fourth fight he won legitmately with the skills he obtained, emerl still won the fight despite having different moves, shadow beated him and tied up with him twice as well when he was in his semi-ultimate state, despite emerl having different moves, and he tied up with him without a chaos emerald. You have shown no proof he can negate chaos based ATTACKS. he can negate the power of the chaos emeralds via master emerald. not the attacks produced by them. Even if he could, he is not going to sense any attacks if he is slowed down in time getting blitzed constantly before time is fixed again.(although its not canon, i couldn't find any videos of team dark's team blast, although it showed the attack i'm trying to show the effect of chaos control.)

4:49-4:55 this is not a canon series at all, but this showcase is similar to something you see in sonic heroes after he used chaos control and after omega attacks.

3. not really......

4. Shadow could send homing projectiles, can freeze homing projectiles in place, and can even heal himself via chaos control or creating a powerful guard via chaos control.......

5. already countered everything here regarding to speed already above so blah, '

Digging can actually be countered, there is a small hint showing where he is coming up from, plus his digging attack which you call a surprise attack can be countered or blocked, say he digs a hole, we can apply pokemon logic, and have shadow throw chaos spears into the hole, because of the tunnel created, the explosion would reach knuckles and blast him out of the ground. Or shadow could simply hear knuckles coming from the ground which explains why the attack can be countered by the other characters.

#90 Edited by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio
@cosmoman said:

hey guys, sonic x isn't canon, it didn't show any of his abilities outside of strength and stopping chaos emeralds. And proof that "shadow wins" being... (btw silver would beat shadow)?

silver got his ass kicked by both sonic and shadow. how would he win against someone who shown himself to be superior in canon?

#91 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: 5. I already stated shad. was near hypersonic from the beginning, so that's not new information to me :-'. and he's shown to be supersonic, according to the wiki, as sonic was shown to be running at incredibly fast speeds backwards "and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes" so he's supersonic too, not a little under the sound barrier.

6. yeah, but shadow has lost too, and it's stated he has held his own on several occasions "Even more so, he has been able to fight Sonic the Hedgehog to a standstill on several occasions". so they're both in the same boat.

#92 Edited by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio
@cosmoman said:

@oblivion360: it's ok, i do it too :-).

1. I get what you're saying, that is pretty confusing (contradicting really). They have supersonic shadow going faster than a hypersonic capable sonic on that game, and they state shadow to be supersonic. i have pondered on this question before, and this is my premise. shadow is faster than sonic when he is holding back, but when he goes all out (sonic said it was time to stop holding back and go all out in the game) he exits supersonic and battles at hypersonic speeds (it would explain why they said him and emerl battled at multiple times the speed sound, and why sonic was the only one who stood a chance), which is out of shad's league. He's equal to sonic before he starts holding back (the sonic before he goes multiple times the speed of sound), that's why he's never stated to be hypersonic. And rolled up they said possibly, plus he has to charge energy (chaos energy i think) before that happens.

2. yeah, but he's taking a beating at sonic speed, which is pretty impressive, plus his durability is more than shad's (according to sonic battle). And good point, he is not immune to chaos energy, but he can shut it down with the chant (which is why gauging speed and defenses are key).

3. Yeah, i get your point, that is a problem... however his feats suggest he is supersonic, ex the afterimages in sonic advance, which don't get me wrong, i'm not a hypocrite and i remember my statement about it being a sign of a boost in speed) and the fact that sonic was running supersonic speeds backwards " and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes" and knux was right behind him. and i'm going based on the fact he's stalemated sonic "he has been able to fight Sonic the Hedgehog to a standstill on several occasions", so he must have tagged him. Knuckles was stated to be slow in sonic battle, where else did he say it again (may be my memory) and he didn't lose to blaze, he got knocked off guard by her speed and his anger, it wasn't a feat worthy fight. And it says knuckles has fast reflexes, period,"Knuckles is also shown to have sharp reflexes AND acrobatic skills, being able to do special tricks and movements while in mid-air..." acrobatics was added on (the part after acrobatic was to elaborate on acrobatics), it doesn't mean his reflexes are specifically for the air.

4. i see your point, and yeah i agree that he's more like luke cage than ironfist. But everyone has their own fighting style, and that includes shad. If someone starts off brutal and slow then fast and weak randomly you'll be kind of confused (like deadpool), and shadow is pretty consistent with fast and brutal, so it won't be confusing. and shadow is good (him, shadow, and blaze are the closest things to martial artists) , but not martial artist good. knuckles can take him (he's dealt with martial artist before)

5. true, they don't say it directly, however feats suggest he is. that wasn't sonic's energy, if it was they wouldn't be able to do attacks unique to them, it was just chaos energy, so since super knuckles has chaos energy he may be lightspeed. The hyper knuckles wikia states it, and its more specific than the super transformation page. but he can, ex its standard gear son sonic and sega all stars. and it may not help after the punch is thrown, but it will aid later on. and powerflash (while not used often) it was used, and since he used it then he can use it now. and yeah, but that amount of energy needed will take time to charge,and does on all of his appearences.

1. so the game stating that he's hypersonic is wrong cause the wiki says he isn't

2. so he won't be taking a beating at sonic speed while in that same game it was stated that he was faster than sonic

3. so the wiki is wrong because in the game he runs close to sonic even though there is no indication of sonic going full tilt except the wiki post " and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes" but yet in that same game sonic had to grab knuckles's hand to run and escape danger. so the wiki post is wrong but its also right?

4. Shadow is stated to be the best combatant in the sonicverse the wiki even backs it up "Shadow's skills are more than a match for even the strongest characters in the series, and has been able to take down some of the most fearsome foes seen in the Sonic the Hedgehog series on his own, such as Black Doom. To best put his skills in perspective, as seen in some of the scenarios in Shadow the Hedgehog, Shadow is only person so far who has been able to utterly defeat Sonic in combat." but this is probably wrong to because it supports shadow.

5. it was sonics energy. "The hyper knuckles wikia states it" you yourself stated that the wiki can be wrong but i guess thats only for things that doesn't help your case. he need the 7 super emeralds that was the only way to transform in canon. he doesn't carry the M.E with him all the time simply based on all the games he didn't carry it with him compared to the 2-3 he does (your example was a racing game really). "and powerflash (while not used often) it was used" powerflash was used in one game in multiplayer which isn't canon but I don't really care. it didn't take him time to charge in his fight with silver in fact it was instantaneous as soon as he said the words "chaos control"

the only thing I gathered from your post is that the wiki is not reliable (which I was trying to show you since the beginning) but is perfect when it suits you (thats fanboy logic) I wonder if that truly is the case.

#93 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: 5. I already stated shad. was near hypersonic from the beginning, so that's not new information to me :-'. and he's shown to be supersonic, according to the wiki, as sonic was shown to be running at incredibly fast speeds backwards "and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes" so he's supersonic too, not a little under the sound barrier.

6. yeah, but shadow has lost too, and it's stated he has held his own on several occasions "Even more so, he has been able to fight Sonic the Hedgehog to a standstill on several occasions". so they're both in the same boat.

No you didn't, i already debunked your statements saying that knuckles is hypersonic in speeds. Want me to copy and paste it?

5. Shadow is near hypersonic according to your wiki, which is what sonic is, knuckles based on feats is only a little bit over the sound barrier.

6. HE FOUGHT KNUCKLES ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, AND WON.

7. Knuckles holding back is out of character, so even if the wiki is supposedly telling the truth it would simply be CIS or PIS.

8. "how can I be sure he was going supersonic speeds,.... BEAUSE I SEEN IT AND IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE WIKIA" If thats your augmentation, then im not convinced. it seems that you are heavily relying on the wiki.

9. Thats why he loses? despite having better combat experience than both sonic and knuckles? despite being a combat genius, having ridiculously amazing close combat skills coupled with his chaos based techniques and time warping techniques? Sonic's edge against knuckles was his skill at fighting, knuckles brash and simple fighting style, and sonic's agility, these are all traits that go in shadow's favor because he has them. Chaos control is FTL as soon as its activated the speed of knuckles is 0. He won't be moving at all. He will be slowed down completely.

See that? in those instances, the target were slowed down. Knuckles is not reacting to that. And if i recall correctly wasn't sonic stated to be a embodiment of chaos?(according to your wiki) wouldn't that mean he could do anything knuckles can with chaos energy but better? and your theory is that knuckles can counter chaos control, but sonic couldn't do it. ITS ALSO STATED THAT HE IS GETTING STRONGER AS WELL. SHADOW COULD KEEP UP WITH SONIC IN FOOT RACES WHILE KNUCKLES IN LEGIT CANON CANNOT. And please stop procrastinating, show me how he negates chaos powers, if he was able to do such things he wouldn't be losing battles with rogue(who is lessed skilled in combat than shadow is.) since apparently he is a god of chaos according to you, you have not given any proof that he can sense chaos attacks or negate them in general. It seems that you are trying to be a fanboy. Whats stopping shadow from using light speed attack or spamming chaos magic or other techniques?

10. The wikia information is provided by several different people, not one person, so there will be information that contradicts one another, Sonic heroes is not a good way to gauge knuckles speeds, especially since its contradicted in later games, along with the fact that even big the freaking cat can run at supersonic to hypersonic speeds supposedly in that game.(which is ridiculous.) And since you want to use speculations and assumptions, then how about this? sonic was not going full tilt in speed in order for tails and knuckles to catch up. plus your theory of hypersonic level speeds is flawed, since sonic was not confirmed to be hypersonic until sonic unleashed. Then in sonic generations shadow was seen casually keeping up with sonic at full speed(contradicting everything about shadow not being equal in speed or near his speed in previous canon games, along with the fact that even if your theory on knuckles speed is true, that means shadow still gets the advantage sonic had.)

0:26 as you can see sonic was not going at full speed, thats why he grabbed them and sped out of the rubble. Which debunks literally everything you said so far about him even possibly in the slightest being as fast as sonic. let alone faster than shadow which your precious wiki states that he casually keeps up with sonic, and he has reached speeds close to the ones sonic goes up to which is why he keeps up with sonic in the first place.

"means nothing, just explains his style of fighting, knuckles fights with powerpacked blows that keep you in a deadly combo, and with a deadly amount of momentum out of each blow, so what does that mean in this fight, absolutely nothing. so.... fail. And I already know of the rivalry, but considering that he fought shadow in sonic battle and held back (he stated he had to go all out to beat ultimate emerl, an opponent way out of shadow's league and speed"

Actually, shadow's fighting style is exactly what you just quoted and knuckles fighting style is nothing like you are actually saying at all.(deadly momentum? they said that for shadow as well..... and the recap you were trying to do for knuckles, knuckles has low level geokinesis stated by emerl's data base and the sonic wiki, funny thing, in emerl's database shadow is faster than sonic, which mean if your theory of sonic being hypersonic still stands, than that means shadow is hypersonic due to the fact that he was faster than sonic in sonic battle, but sonic later gotten faster than him, which i won't deny. ) IF sonic himself said that knuckles fights simply, then without the benefit of the doubt he fights simple. Thats all there is too it. Whether sonic was holding back or not, shadow tied with semi-ultimate emerl who was actually just slightly below ultimate emerl,(who was simply given a override code which fused everything he learned all at once, instead of selected moves) semi-ultimate emerl had 7 chaos emeralds(shadow's emerald obviously included, meaning his powers were heavily reduced, meaning he could have possibly won, if he had his emerald.) While knuckles got his ass beat by emerl on several occasions. You say emerl had the advantage all the time because he had variety and element of surprise, but he had that on shadow, sonic, and literally the entire cast of the sonic battle game. but allot of the characters beated emerl allot more than knuckles did,( knuckles only won once or twice in a sparring match i believe when he was training him, and even fought him again and lost twice while fighting legitimately , and considering he should had known what to expect that goes on my side even more.)

So please give me a argumentation worth arguing about. Because yours is exceptionally weak.

11. " yes it does, and he is light speed, (I am power scaling based off of feats, which is a logical thing to go off of) and you can't don't know whether he did or not, all I know is that they were going light speed and knuckles can us he M.E. to achieve light speed (emerald power is identical to the super shield, including speed (sonic retro under emerald power), so saying super knux is light speed is not far fetched, especially if I give a reference. and it's inferior because it was split between three people, and super knuckles has that same energy all in him, so it's not baseless, wrong again. who said he doesn't have the M.E. he, keeps it with him by shrinking it out of sight, look it up (wow, you need to do serious research) and emerald power could take out both positive and negative empowerments (I've played the game, I wasn't that impressed) because of his superior durability (unless you think inhibless positive shad could take a super form who has both positive and negative energy and has takes attacks while in chaos control without too much damage (from METAL OVERLOD FOR GOODNESS SAKES!!)). He would own shadow, hands down."

You have shown no proof besides powerscaling which by the way cannot properly apply to the situation(power scaling only works out if its non-consistent, if the feats are inconsist then powerscaling is useless, for example, one piece, luffy was shown casually shrugging off canon balls, but yet in another episode we see him get knocked back by a punch from someone we know doesn't have that much power in the first place.) Just because its split between three people doesn't change the possible effects it doing that may happen. The thread doesn't specify whether he has it or not. Prove that he carries the M.E with him please. Because if i recall correctly, his M.E got stolen twice in sonic 3/sonic and knuckles, in sonic advance 3 he left his M.E unguarded on the altar, in sonic rivals 2 it was stolen AGAIN, and on other occasions, the master emerald was shown to left behind by knuckles on other occasions despite his duties,(this is something questioned by most fans.) and in sonic adventure he left it unguarded to go back to it, finding it shattered as soon as he chills out on it. So i highly doubt he carries it around. If you mean the occasions in sonic dark brotherhood and sonic battle when the Master emerald was somehow small? the wiki says its shape changes over time :) knuckles does not shrink it, plus even eggman has the M.E in a small box, so that means that the M.E's shape changes constantly. Plus in character knuckles does not carry the M.E unless there is a crisis that goes on that needs fixing, and thats why there were occasions where he brought the emerald himself. Shadow has survived a fall from space. I don't think you read the things i said:

"Shadow always has his green chaos emerald, which further increases his powers, and with a chaos emerald shadow can go dark or good and gain the advantages from them. Dark gives him a large increase in power and durability(he was bullet proof when he went dark shadow.) and when in good gives him invincibility and a larger scale utilization of chaos control.... Therefore making him untouchable since time is heavily slowed down..... He also has inhibitor rings to further increase his powers, now combine everything i already brought up and combine it with inhibitor removal."

If you don't start providing a defending argument thats not so weak, then im going to call a mod to lock this as fun as this debate this.

#94 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: actually yes I did state shadow was under hypersonic from the very beginning, here's a sentence from my very first post " (only reaching supersonic (meaning multiple times the speed of sound, not super sonic's speed),", so that's not true. and as for my argument being weak, it's not, you just need to catch it, here's a little enlightenment for you.

5. Actually based on the feat from sonic heroes and the wikia's statement about it " and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes" it is safe to say that he's well past "a little bit over the sound barrier". It why they said full speed, he was in supersonic range and though knuckles was lagging, he was up there.

6. yes, but KNUCKLES HAS STALEMATED HIM SEVERAL TIMES, proof? "he has been able to fight Sonic the Hedgehog to a standstill on several occasions",and shadow has been beaten by sonic twice so they are in the same boat.

7. him holding back is not PIS or CIS, as it's not intentional. it just means he'll stop being an emotional fighter and focus so he'll fight to his full potential. its what he's learned to do in recent games.

8. the wikia is factual, and all of their statements are supported by feats, why wouldn't I use it (btw I've played mostly all the sonic games, so my information is not third person)? it's like mentioning why am I using the marvel wikia in a marvel battle. the fact you are not using it is bad, and your argument is failing because of it.

9. combat genius o_O... you're going waaay too far, seriously. he's no where near iron fist or goku, who are both what you are calling shadow. shadow is militarily trained, and knuckles has fought multiple military trained characters "he was able to take down several of the military trained Nocturnus Clan soldiers" and owned them, so shadow is not doing anything special. warping techniques (again) can be sensed beforehand and knux's defense is more than enough to do something beforehand. sonic won because of his incalculable speed, and shadow does not have the speed that sonic does, this is shown in sonic battle where sonic is stated to be slower than shad regularly, but when he states its time to stop holding back he kicks it up to another level beyond which shadow could even dream of reaching. it's this speed that keeps him and shadow from doing the same thing, like beating knuckles. and yes chaos control can make you move FTL, but it has to be activated first and since knuckles can sense the gathering of chaos energy he can but up a volcanic eruption to keep him away and prevent chaos spear from hitting him. those characters have not been shown to sense chaos energy build up, knuckles has so you can't say that. also proof of sonic being the embodiment of chaos energy, I don't remember that (sound more like chaos), the wind yes, chaos no. and SHADOW (ACCORDING TO SONIC BATTLE) CAN EQUAL SONIC'S SPEED ON FOOT AND SURPASS IT WITH THE ROCKET BOOTS, HOWEVER THAT IS SONIC HOLDING BACK AND WHEN HE STOPS HOLDING BACK (AS SHOWN WITH EMERL) SHADOW IS NO WHERE NEAR HIM IN SPEED. HENCE WHY SHADOW IS SUPERSONIC. "And please stop procrastinating, show me how he negates chaos powers" procrastinating to show how he negates chaos energy? I've already stated that... about a thousand times, so open your eyes and actually look. HERE'S HOW KNUCKLES NEGATES CHAOS ENERGY KIDDIES, IT'S CALLED THE MASTER EMERALD. IT HAS THE POWER TO ENHANCE OR NEGATE THE POWER OF THE CHAOS EMERALDS, " (THE GODS) therefore equipped the gem to be able to negate the energy of the Chaos Emeralds should it be needed" AND As its primary function, the Master Emerald has the power to fully control everything that the Chaos Emeralds do, which grants it the ability to both negate and empower Chaos Emeralds, meaning it can stop the Chaos Energy of the Chaos Emeralds, or enhance them. WITH KNUCKLES DEFENSES CAN BUY ENOUGH TIME TO SAY THE CHANT, AND CUT THE POWER. DID YOU CATCH THAT? GOOD, BECAUSE IM NOT SAYING IT AGAIN. AS SONIC FANS I'M SURPRISED I HAD TO TELL YOU THAT, BUT WHATEVER. he's never been beaten by rouge, and if it has happened its PIS. "you have not given any proof that he can sense chaos attacks or negate them in general." :-/....... SERIOUSLY!? "knux could sense the chaos energy building up beforehand, VIA SAB2", " (remember he can sense chaos energy build up)", "As for proof of sense, try sonic adventure battle 2, when sonic warped there, so he can do it, battle or not :-,", YOU'RE STARTING TO ANNOY ME, YOU HAVE EYES FOR A REASON, USE THEM.lightspeed attack needs charging, not to mention it can be guarded and chaos "magic" (lololololololol) can be sensed, won't work. plus knuckles has his own "magic", thunderbolts and meteors to be exact.

10. "The wikia information is provided by several different people, not one person, so there will be information that contradicts one another, Sonic heroes is not a good way to gauge knuckles speeds, especially since its contradicted in later games, along with the fact that even big the freaking cat can run at supersonic to hypersonic speeds supposedly in that game.(which is ridiculous.) And since you want to use speculations and assumptions, then how about this? sonic was not going full tilt in speed in order for tails and knuckles to catch up. plus your theory of hypersonic level speeds is flawed, since sonic was not confirmed to be hypersonic until sonic unleashed. Then in sonic generations shadow was seen casually keeping up with sonic at full speed(contradicting everything about shadow not being equal in speed or near his speed in previous canon games, along with the fact that even if your theory on knuckles speed is true, that means shadow still gets the advantage sonic had.)"

they check to make sure the info is legit, so that's not true, and as for big the cat, no one ever stated he was supersonic in that game, that's an assumption you made (amy apparently wasn't going full speed). plus I gauged based on a cutscene, which is legit in the sonic universe, and a statement on a legit wikia. full tilt is not canon, it's gameplay mechanic.... wow. and that's not true, he's stated to be hypersonic waaay before then "It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h)." and "In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and in Emerl's story, Sonic takes on and defeats the Gizoid in under 30 seconds". and yes shadow kept up with shad, but he did in sonic battle too, because sonic was holding back, that's why. it seems that you were wrong, my info is not flawed, yours is.

"0:26 as you can see sonic was not going at full speed, thats why he grabbed them and sped out of the rubble. Which debunks literally everything you said so far about him even possibly in the slightest being as fast as sonic. let alone faster than shadow which your precious wiki states that he casually keeps up with sonic, and he has reached speeds close to the ones sonic goes up to which is why he keeps up with sonic in the first place."

they were in shock, and in case you didn't notice tails (who is known to be almost as fast as sonic, on the same level as shadow, supersonic) was under there too, and he could have easily escaped, hence why I said shock. so, not true

"Actually, shadow's fighting style is exactly what you just quoted and knuckles fighting style is nothing like you are actually saying at all.(deadly momentum? they said that for shadow as well..... and the recap you were trying to do for knuckles, knuckles has low level geokinesis stated by emerl's data base and the sonic wiki, funny thing, in emerl's database shadow is faster than sonic, which mean if your theory of sonic being hypersonic still stands, than that means shadow is hypersonic due to the fact that he was faster than sonic in sonic battle, but sonic later gotten faster than him, which i won't deny. ) IF sonic himself said that knuckles fights simply, then without the benefit of the doubt he fights simple. Thats all there is too it. Whether sonic was holding back or not, shadow tied with semi-ultimate emerl who was actually just slightly below ultimate emerl,(who was simply given a override code which fused everything he learned all at once, instead of selected moves) semi-ultimate emerl had 7 chaos emeralds(shadow's emerald obviously included, meaning his powers were heavily reduced, meaning he could have possibly won, if he had his emerald.) While knuckles got his ass beat by emerl on several occasions. You say emerl had the advantage all the time because he had variety and element of surprise, but he had that on shadow, sonic, and literally the entire cast of the sonic battle game. but allot of the characters beated emerl allot more than knuckles did,( knuckles only won once or twice in a sparring match i believe when he was training him, and even fought him again and lost twice while fighting legitimately , and considering he should had known what to expect that goes on my side even more.)"

actually, you don't know what you're talking about, because that's exactly how he fights, "When in battle, Knuckles makes most use of his powerful arms and fists to take on his foes, with his specialty lying in punching moves where he uses his spiked fists to their fullest. In terms of fighting style, Knuckles' focuses specially on power, using strong and powerful punches, such as powerpacked jabs or piercing uppercuts, to deal damaging blows to his opponents. Once he catches an opponent in his combos, he keep them trapped by keeping up his strikes, not allowing his opponents a chance to counterattack. For stronger strikes, Knuckles tend to build up momentum with his fists by swinging them around, before hitting his opponent with full force." yeah... this must be awkard for you. and yeah he's a low level geokinetic.... who can call meteors from the sky and cause the earth to protect him! very low indeed.. and that logic od shadow being hypersonic flawed because emerl measure sonic holding back, and as I've proven sonic holing back and sonic cutting all the way loose are two different animals, so yeah, he's about sonic speed, aka supersonic. and sonic said that, but sonic is leagues above shadow, so you can't say that. ultimate emerl witnessed stars exploding and gained the according power, semi emerl was no where near that and sonic knew that he was the only one who even stood any kind of a chance, heck he said it. so no, shadow is no where near that either (so take that loss on your side too).

"So please give me a argumentation worth arguing about. Because yours is exceptionally weak." my thoughts exactly.

"You have shown no proof besides powerscaling which by the way cannot properly apply to the situation(power scaling only works out if its non-consistent, if the feats are inconsist then powerscaling is useless, for example, one piece, luffy was shown casually shrugging off canon balls, but yet in another episode we see him get knocked back by a punch from someone we know doesn't have that much power in the first place.) Just because its split between three people doesn't change the possible effects it doing that may happen. The thread doesn't specify whether he has it or not. Prove that he carries the M.E with him please. Because if i recall correctly, his M.E got stolen twice in sonic 3/sonic and knuckles, in sonic advance 3 he left his M.E unguarded on the altar, in sonic rivals 2 it was stolen AGAIN, and on other occasions, the master emerald was shown to left behind by knuckles on other occasions despite his duties,(this is something questioned by most fans.) and in sonic adventure he left it unguarded to go back to it, finding it shattered as soon as he chills out on it. So i highly doubt he carries it around. If you mean the occasions in sonic dark brotherhood and sonic battle when the Master emerald was somehow small? the wiki says its shape changes over time :) knuckles does not shrink it, plus even eggman has the M.E in a small box, so that means that the M.E's shape changes constantly. Plus in character knuckles does not carry the M.E unless there is a crisis that goes on that needs fixing, and thats why there were occasions where he brought the emerald himself. Shadow has survived a fall from space. I don't think you read the things i said:"

I powerscaled based off of facts, and that's what matters (btw hyper knuckles doesn't have a definite speed, and neither does emerald power, which is why I am using facts such as S.S.'s speed to back up my claim). I know nothing about luffy nor do I care so i'll ignore it. Chaos energy conforms to the user which is why knuckles could use fire attacks and tails electric attacks and since they could use lightspeed attack, they are lightspeed. And even the M.E. does get stolen it is still standard gear for him (hence in sonic and sega all stars when people pull out their signature/standard gear knuckles has the M.E., even sega recognizes it) and as the guardian of it, why wouldn't he have it. and knuckles does shrink it "While these appearances may seem to contradict themselves, it is actually a demonstration of the Master Emerald's ability to change its size according to its owner's will. This is firmly demonstrated by Knuckles in Sonic Adventure 2: After Knuckles restores the Master Emerald at the end of Sonic Adventure 2, he is able to shrink it down to the size of his hand." :-). he shrinks it and it is standard gear based on games. and surviving a space fall is nice, but that was blunt, knuckles has piercing and blunt and I do read the things you say, I just refute them. I read that whole paragraph and i'm not convinced that it could beat a superform emerald power and especially not hyper knuckles.

Get some more info on the characters, because your argument is lacking... badly.

#95 Edited by cosmoman (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@oblivion360:

1. no, it's right, sonic is hypersonic. it's just that shadow was faster than sonic when he was holding back, but when sonic stated that it was time to give it his all against ultimate emerl, he stopped going sonic speed and went hyper. all this shows is that Sonic's casual speed is about sonic speed and is below shadow's, but he can surpass shadow by a lot if he wanted.

2. He's faster that casual sonic (not anymore though), outdone by serious sonic.

3. full tilt is not canon, that's gameplay and that wasn't what I was saying. He ran close Sonic's speed in the cutscene, and in the cutscene the wiki states he was going supersonic speeds, all this to say he's not a slowpoke.

4. yeah, and..? knuckles h2h prowess is well known (even tails stated so, and he's seen sonic fight) and he has great feats too. it's not wrong, it's just extra baggage ;-).

5. there is no such thing as "Sonic's energy", it was just chaos energy, it's how they were able to use their signature moves unique to them. also I never stated the wikia was wrong, I said it was confusing, two totally different thing. and you're wrong, he can transform with just the M.E. "Hyper Knuckles (ハイパーナックルズ, Haipā Nakkuruzu?) is Knuckles the Echidna's hyper transformation that is gained when he taps into the power of seven Super Emeralds and 50 rings or the Master Emerald." and that "racing game" just proved it was standard gear, sorry. Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit :-P and shadow did it pretty fast, but guess what, he still charged energy and had to pull it out, all knuckles has to do is hit the ground before he is surrounded in lava, and what can shad do then? nothing.

if that's what you gathered then you're not as informed as you seem (I never stated or shown the wikia to be unreliable, you just misunderstood, again if so show where I displayed that) and facts do suit me, almost as much as misinterpreting suits you, at least this fanboy is logical, "fanboy" out B-).

#96 Edited by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

@deathhero61: actually yes I did state shadow was under hypersonic from the very beginning, here's a sentence from my very first post " (only reaching supersonic (meaning multiple times the speed of sound, not super sonic's speed),", so that's not true. and as for my argument being weak, it's not, you just need to catch it, here's a little enlightenment for you.

5. Actually based on the feat from sonic heroes and the wikia's statement about it " and can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes" it is safe to say that he's well past "a little bit over the sound barrier". It why they said full speed, he was in supersonic range and though knuckles was lagging, he was up there.

6. yes, but KNUCKLES HAS STALEMATED HIM SEVERAL TIMES, proof? "he has been able to fight Sonic the Hedgehog to a standstill on several occasions",and shadow has been beaten by sonic twice so they are in the same boat.

7. him holding back is not PIS or CIS, as it's not intentional. it just means he'll stop being an emotional fighter and focus so he'll fight to his full potential. its what he's learned to do in recent games.

8. the wikia is factual, and all of their statements are supported by feats, why wouldn't I use it (btw I've played mostly all the sonic games, so my information is not third person)? it's like mentioning why am I using the marvel wikia in a marvel battle. the fact you are not using it is bad, and your argument is failing because of it.

9. combat genius o_O... you're going waaay too far, seriously. he's no where near iron fist or goku, who are both what you are calling shadow. shadow is militarily trained, and knuckles has fought multiple military trained characters "he was able to take down several of the military trained Nocturnus Clan soldiers" and owned them, so shadow is not doing anything special. warping techniques (again) can be sensed beforehand and knux's defense is more than enough to do something beforehand. sonic won because of his incalculable speed, and shadow does not have the speed that sonic does, this is shown in sonic battle where sonic is stated to be slower than shad regularly, but when he states its time to stop holding back he kicks it up to another level beyond which shadow could even dream of reaching. it's this speed that keeps him and shadow from doing the same thing, like beating knuckles. and yes chaos control can make you move FTL, but it has to be activated first and since knuckles can sense the gathering of chaos energy he can but up a volcanic eruption to keep him away and prevent chaos spear from hitting him. those characters have not been shown to sense chaos energy build up, knuckles has so you can't say that. also proof of sonic being the embodiment of chaos energy, I don't remember that (sound more like chaos), the wind yes, chaos no. and SHADOW (ACCORDING TO SONIC BATTLE) CAN EQUAL SONIC'S SPEED ON FOOT AND SURPASS IT WITH THE ROCKET BOOTS, HOWEVER THAT IS SONIC HOLDING BACK AND WHEN HE STOPS HOLDING BACK (AS SHOWN WITH EMERL) SHADOW IS NO WHERE NEAR HIM IN SPEED. HENCE WHY SHADOW IS SUPERSONIC. "And please stop procrastinating, show me how he negates chaos powers" procrastinating to show how he negates chaos energy? I've already stated that... about a thousand times, so open your eyes and actually look. HERE'S HOW KNUCKLES NEGATES CHAOS ENERGY KIDDIES, IT'S CALLED THE MASTER EMERALD. IT HAS THE POWER TO ENHANCE OR NEGATE THE POWER OF THE CHAOS EMERALDS, " (THE GODS) therefore equipped the gem to be able to negate the energy of the Chaos Emeralds should it be needed" AND As its primary function, the Master Emerald has the power to fully control everything that the Chaos Emeralds do, which grants it the ability to both negate and empower Chaos Emeralds, meaning it can stop the Chaos Energy of the Chaos Emeralds, or enhance them. WITH KNUCKLES DEFENSES CAN BUY ENOUGH TIME TO SAY THE CHANT, AND CUT THE POWER. DID YOU CATCH THAT? GOOD, BECAUSE IM NOT SAYING IT AGAIN. AS SONIC FANS I'M SURPRISED I HAD TO TELL YOU THAT, BUT WHATEVER. he's never been beaten by rouge, and if it has happened its PIS. "you have not given any proof that he can sense chaos attacks or negate them in general." :-/....... SERIOUSLY!? "knux could sense the chaos energy building up beforehand, VIA SAB2", " (remember he can sense chaos energy build up)", "As for proof of sense, try sonic adventure battle 2, when sonic warped there, so he can do it, battle or not :-,", YOU'RE STARTING TO ANNOY ME, YOU HAVE EYES FOR A REASON, USE THEM.lightspeed attack needs charging, not to mention it can be guarded and chaos "magic" (lololololololol) can be sensed, won't work. plus knuckles has his own "magic", thunderbolts and meteors to be exact.

10. "The wikia information is provided by several different people, not one person, so there will be information that contradicts one another, Sonic heroes is not a good way to gauge knuckles speeds, especially since its contradicted in later games, along with the fact that even big the freaking cat can run at supersonic to hypersonic speeds supposedly in that game.(which is ridiculous.) And since you want to use speculations and assumptions, then how about this? sonic was not going full tilt in speed in order for tails and knuckles to catch up. plus your theory of hypersonic level speeds is flawed, since sonic was not confirmed to be hypersonic until sonic unleashed. Then in sonic generations shadow was seen casually keeping up with sonic at full speed(contradicting everything about shadow not being equal in speed or near his speed in previous canon games, along with the fact that even if your theory on knuckles speed is true, that means shadow still gets the advantage sonic had.)"

they check to make sure the info is legit, so that's not true, and as for big the cat, no one ever stated he was supersonic in that game, that's an assumption you made (amy apparently wasn't going full speed). plus I gauged based on a cutscene, which is legit in the sonic universe, and a statement on a legit wikia. full tilt is not canon, it's gameplay mechanic.... wow. and that's not true, he's stated to be hypersonic waaay before then "It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h)." and "In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and in Emerl's story, Sonic takes on and defeats the Gizoid in under 30 seconds". and yes shadow kept up with shad, but he did in sonic battle too, because sonic was holding back, that's why. it seems that you were wrong, my info is not flawed, yours is.

"0:26 as you can see sonic was not going at full speed, thats why he grabbed them and sped out of the rubble. Which debunks literally everything you said so far about him even possibly in the slightest being as fast as sonic. let alone faster than shadow which your precious wiki states that he casually keeps up with sonic, and he has reached speeds close to the ones sonic goes up to which is why he keeps up with sonic in the first place."

they were in shock, and in case you didn't notice tails (who is known to be almost as fast as sonic, on the same level as shadow, supersonic) was under there too, and he could have easily escaped, hence why I said shock. so, not true

"Actually, shadow's fighting style is exactly what you just quoted and knuckles fighting style is nothing like you are actually saying at all.(deadly momentum? they said that for shadow as well..... and the recap you were trying to do for knuckles, knuckles has low level geokinesis stated by emerl's data base and the sonic wiki, funny thing, in emerl's database shadow is faster than sonic, which mean if your theory of sonic being hypersonic still stands, than that means shadow is hypersonic due to the fact that he was faster than sonic in sonic battle, but sonic later gotten faster than him, which i won't deny. ) IF sonic himself said that knuckles fights simply, then without the benefit of the doubt he fights simple. Thats all there is too it. Whether sonic was holding back or not, shadow tied with semi-ultimate emerl who was actually just slightly below ultimate emerl,(who was simply given a override code which fused everything he learned all at once, instead of selected moves) semi-ultimate emerl had 7 chaos emeralds(shadow's emerald obviously included, meaning his powers were heavily reduced, meaning he could have possibly won, if he had his emerald.) While knuckles got his ass beat by emerl on several occasions. You say emerl had the advantage all the time because he had variety and element of surprise, but he had that on shadow, sonic, and literally the entire cast of the sonic battle game. but allot of the characters beated emerl allot more than knuckles did,( knuckles only won once or twice in a sparring match i believe when he was training him, and even fought him again and lost twice while fighting legitimately , and considering he should had known what to expect that goes on my side even more.)"

actually, you don't know what you're talking about, because that's exactly how he fights, "When in battle, Knuckles makes most use of his powerful arms and fists to take on his foes, with his specialty lying in punching moves where he uses his spiked fists to their fullest. In terms of fighting style, Knuckles' focuses specially on power, using strong and powerful punches, such as powerpacked jabs or piercing uppercuts, to deal damaging blows to his opponents. Once he catches an opponent in his combos, he keep them trapped by keeping up his strikes, not allowing his opponents a chance to counterattack. For stronger strikes, Knuckles tend to build up momentum with his fists by swinging them around, before hitting his opponent with full force." yeah... this must be awkard for you. and yeah he's a low level geokinetic.... who can call meteors from the sky and cause the earth to protect him! very low indeed.. and that logic od shadow being hypersonic flawed because emerl measure sonic holding back, and as I've proven sonic holing back and sonic cutting all the way loose are two different animals, so yeah, he's about sonic speed, aka supersonic. and sonic said that, but sonic is leagues above shadow, so you can't say that. ultimate emerl witnessed stars exploding and gained the according power, semi emerl was no where near that and sonic knew that he was the only one who even stood any kind of a chance, heck he said it. so no, shadow is no where near that either (so take that loss on your side too).

"So please give me a argumentation worth arguing about. Because yours is exceptionally weak." my thoughts exactly.

"You have shown no proof besides powerscaling which by the way cannot properly apply to the situation(power scaling only works out if its non-consistent, if the feats are inconsist then powerscaling is useless, for example, one piece, luffy was shown casually shrugging off canon balls, but yet in another episode we see him get knocked back by a punch from someone we know doesn't have that much power in the first place.) Just because its split between three people doesn't change the possible effects it doing that may happen. The thread doesn't specify whether he has it or not. Prove that he carries the M.E with him please. Because if i recall correctly, his M.E got stolen twice in sonic 3/sonic and knuckles, in sonic advance 3 he left his M.E unguarded on the altar, in sonic rivals 2 it was stolen AGAIN, and on other occasions, the master emerald was shown to left behind by knuckles on other occasions despite his duties,(this is something questioned by most fans.) and in sonic adventure he left it unguarded to go back to it, finding it shattered as soon as he chills out on it. So i highly doubt he carries it around. If you mean the occasions in sonic dark brotherhood and sonic battle when the Master emerald was somehow small? the wiki says its shape changes over time :) knuckles does not shrink it, plus even eggman has the M.E in a small box, so that means that the M.E's shape changes constantly. Plus in character knuckles does not carry the M.E unless there is a crisis that goes on that needs fixing, and thats why there were occasions where he brought the emerald himself. Shadow has survived a fall from space. I don't think you read the things i said:"

I powerscaled based off of facts, and that's what matters (btw hyper knuckles doesn't have a definite speed, and neither does emerald power, which is why I am using facts such as S.S.'s speed to back up my claim). I know nothing about luffy nor do I care so i'll ignore it. Chaos energy conforms to the user which is why knuckles could use fire attacks and tails electric attacks and since they could use lightspeed attack, they are lightspeed. And even the M.E. does get stolen it is still standard gear for him (hence in sonic and sega all stars when people pull out their signature/standard gear knuckles has the M.E., even sega recognizes it) and as the guardian of it, why wouldn't he have it. and knuckles does shrink it "While these appearances may seem to contradict themselves, it is actually a demonstration of the Master Emerald's ability to change its size according to its owner's will. This is firmly demonstrated by Knuckles in Sonic Adventure 2: After Knuckles restores the Master Emerald at the end of Sonic Adventure 2, he is able to shrink it down to the size of his hand." :-). he shrinks it and it is standard gear based on games. and surviving a space fall is nice, but that was blunt, knuckles has piercing and blunt and I do read the things you say, I just refute them. I read that whole paragraph and i'm not convinced that it could beat a superform emerald power and especially not hyper knuckles.

Get some more info on the characters, because your argument is lacking... badly.

I proved shadow is hypersonic, get over it.

5. i proved shadow is hypersonic get over it

6. Shadow has done the same in canon, and even beated him as well on some occasions. Stalemated? proof please, because if i recall correctly he was getting beat by people weaker than sonic.....

7. pfft. if you say so, that doesn't change the fact that he lost to emerl right afterwards, then had a another fight with him on another occasion then fight him again when he was at full power and lost. Shadow fought emerl at full power and(wait what was the word again? stalemated.)

8. the wikia is contributed by multiple people.(like all wikias are.) so they on occasion contradict each other. do you want an example? Hypersonic speeds(since despite my entire large comment countering it apparently doesn't exist.) In sonic battle(waaaay after sonic was confirmed to be able to move at hypersonic movements) in emerl's data banks shadow was confirmed to be faster than sonic. Later on to further prove that he is hypersonic in sonic generations he is shown casually keeping up with sonic as if its a cake walk. Yet despite all this, shadow is still stated to be near super sonic speeds according to the wikia. So tell me. How is the wikia so useful, when it sometimes contradicts itself highly? Oh Oh one more thing. sonic heroes.

0:26 as you can see sonic was not going at full speed, thats why he grabbed them and sped out of the rubble. Which debunks literally everything you said so far about him even possibly in the slightest being as fast as sonic. let alone faster than shadow which your precious wiki states that he casually keeps up with sonic, and he has reached speeds close to the ones sonic goes up to which is why he keeps up with sonic in the first place.

"they were in shock, and in case you didn't notice tails (who is known to be almost as fast as sonic, on the same level as shadow, supersonic) was under there too, and he could have easily escaped, hence why I said shock. so, not true"

thats such an excuse its not even funny. They weren't in shock about anything, sonic suddenly grabbed them and got them out of there before the rubble crushed them so still no, there is no proof that they could have gotten out of there themselves, again thats just you spouting baseless speculations. Oh oh and your precious wikia states this: "Like most other character in the series, Knuckles is shown to be very fast on his feet, being able to run at remarkable, near-superhuman speeds, though he still not quite as fast as Sonic, Tails or Shadow"

By the way, nearly every incarnation of spiderman has been stated to move at super human speeds as well, but the fastest i recall spiderman can run is 130-200 miles which is not even close to the sound barrier. Which means your precious wiki contradicts something. in the sonic advance series, the sonic characters were shown to break the sound barrier. Sonic and tails being the fastest cream and amy (based on gameplay is faster than knuckles)

9.*facepalm* I asked you for visual proof of him utilizing it in combat properly, (in the case he could do it, the proof you "showed" me was weak, so im still not convinced either way.) not speculation on how he does it. For example. spiderman when he first gained his powers he had an ability called the spider-sense, before it developed more usefully, he could only tell the direction of the danger, therefore making it impossible to tell what threat he has to face or how fast or big it is. Now his spider-sense is so powerful after developing/being trained, its sort of like a freaking precognition ability. Thats what i mean by proper utilization, having an abilitiy does not mean squat if you cannot properly utilize it. Chaos magic is not a chaos energy technique so how does he sense it -.- "This usage of Chaos Control creates an area of distorted space in front of the user in the form of a violet, purple and white spacial rift that knocks the opponents into the air." how does knuckles sense and negate distorted space? please please tell me how is that logically possible for knuckles let alone any sonic character??? you don't sense space. Thats like saying i can smell a black hole! He can also distort space around his fist to increase his striking strength..... Emerl fought sonic and shadow by himself near the end of the game and won, that must have meant that sonic was using his full speed, and do you have proof that sonic holds back his speed when fighting? "While most games places Sonic and Shadow as equals in speed, character profiles in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) and Sonic Rivals claim that Sonic is faster. Also, in Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood, Shadow personally admitted that he was not faster than Sonic. While it is unknown how fast Shadow actually is without using his Hover Shoes, it has been hinted that Shadow can still move at speeds rivaling that of Sonic's, but he simply prefers not to" this is another statement that contradicts the other ones of him only being "super sonic"

Hilarious, do you have any proof that they "check if its legit" like i said it contradicts each other, one part of the wiki says knuckles is moving at near superhuman speeds which is not that fast,(thats basically peak human) while another page says he runs at super sonic speeds. Amy wasn't going full speed? Wow. Now you are pulling things out your ass. Where the hell did you get that from? Full tilt means going all out......
Whether he was confirmed to be at hypersonic speeds before or after, that doesn't change the fact that the wiki said they were most of the time equal in speeds....... except in sonic brotherhood..... what about that? Please explain that.

Alright if knuckles fighting style is truly like that, do you have any visual evidence to support that? Because we can easily do a comparison of their fighting styles right now..... You know what? do you have any visual evidence to support half of your statements that were only backed up on speculation?(by the way anything you say about sonic beating emerl is irrelevant right now due to the fact that knuckles lost to him while shadow stalemated him twice.(under the same conditions, emerl had the advantage of variety, and surprise, since emerl copying the techniques of others and turning them into new fighting style makes him unpredicatable) High level geokinesis user? oh please, the "meteor" he is spawning is the same exact size as the rock he picks up from the ground..... You wanna see high level geokinesis in fiction? here is a example.

ROFL you truly think knuckles summoning a small boulder is high level geokinesis?

"my thoughts exactly" Oh really? you have not provided any evidence to your claims, you lack credibility since you heavily rely on a wiki which is contributed by multiple people so it tends to contradict itself on occasion,(and the people who provide the "facts" are no different from you and i so its not 100 percent reliable like you are making it seem, you constantly make random claims without proof, you ignored argumentations that debunks yours and make some random bull shitty excuse..... "my thoughts exactly" hilarious. I have experience in speech and debate class, one of the main rules in speech in debate is to actually make your self seem credible, not just yourself but your argumentation as well, or you will just like some douche trying to win people over with something everyone clearly knows is straight up bullshit.(excuse my language moderators) You have proven nothing, and everything you are stating is reliant on a non-official source which is basically fans just like us putting whatever info they know, not info they THINK they know like you with knuckles ability to negate chaos based attacks.

Sonic sega all stars is not canon. at all. Plus by that logic, sonic can create ring shields, tails can create mini planes out of thin air that can fly around him and protect him, and amy can harm her opponents by thinking of freaking love, and etc. and etc.

That was blunt? You are ignoring the fact that he is falling at high speeds towards the ground from space in a weakened state, blunt or not, i highly doubt some spikes are going to make a difference.......

Ok, lets humor the idea of knuckles sensing "chaos energy" it is still up to him to dodge whatever threat comes at him, knuckles has shown no reaction time feats except dodging bullets and possibly keeping up with sonic. light speed attack is when shadow/sonic charge then attack their targets at light speed. Ok lets continue to humor your theory, chaos blast is a giant explosion. the radius is large as well, how is he dodging? he does not have precog. next chaos control, chaos control freezes time, so knuckles won't be reacting to nothing or negating anything since he will be frozen in time, Chaos control is basically speed incarnate, knuckles speed will be zero when he is frozen. Knuckles would have no way to defend. Chaos magic, and chaos spear, Chaos spear can home on its targets, so say knuckles tries to dodge it, shadow can alter its direction. Chaos magic is a technique using chaos control to create distorted space, you cannot sense space, so it will hit without fail.....

#97 Posted by oblivion360 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

@oblivion360:

1. no, it's right, sonic is hypersonic. it's just that shadow was faster than sonic when he was holding back, but when sonic stated that it was time to give it his all against ultimate emerl, he stopped going sonic speed and went hyper. all this shows is that Sonic's casual speed is about sonic speed and is below shadow's, but he can surpass shadow by a lot if he wanted.

2. He's faster that casual sonic (not anymore though), outdone by serious sonic.

3. full tilt is not canon, that's gameplay and that wasn't what I was saying. He ran close Sonic's speed in the cutscene, and in the cutscene the wiki states he was going supersonic speeds, all this to say he's not a slowpoke.

4. yeah, and..? knuckles h2h prowess is well known (even tails stated so, and he's seen sonic fight) and he has great feats too. it's not wrong, it's just extra baggage ;-).

5. there is no such thing as "Sonic's energy", it was just chaos energy, it's how they were able to use their signature moves unique to them. also I never stated the wikia was wrong, I said it was confusing, two totally different thing. and you're wrong, he can transform with just the M.E. "Hyper Knuckles (ハイパーナックルズ, Haipā Nakkuruzu?) is Knuckles the Echidna's hyper transformation that is gained when he taps into the power of seven Super Emeralds and 50 rings or the Master Emerald." and that "racing game" just proved it was standard gear, sorry. Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit :-P and shadow did it pretty fast, but guess what, he still charged energy and had to pull it out, all knuckles has to do is hit the ground before he is surrounded in lava, and what can shad do then? nothing.

if that's what you gathered then you're not as informed as you seem (I never stated or shown the wikia to be unreliable, you just misunderstood, again if so show where I displayed that) and facts do suit me, almost as much as misinterpreting suits you, at least this fanboy is logical, "fanboy" out B-).

1. read what your saying does it really make sense. if the game states that sonic can run 7 times the speed of sound (mach 7) and then says that shadow can run faster than sonic that means he's at least 7 times the speed of sound which is hypersonic. the fact that you need to come up with a theory (thats nothing but made up crap and speculation, are you forgetting that shadow is one of the few people sonic takes seriously going so far as to try and kill each other) to justify the wiki should tell you something.

and just in case you don't know here is a list of mach speeds subsonic speeds= mach 0.8 transonic speed= mach 0.8 - mach 1.2 supersonic speeds= mach 1.2 - mach 5 hypersonic speeds mach 5 - mach 10 anything higher is hypersonic+

2. you shouldn't try to pass off a theory as fact . and wait are you trying to say emerl is faster than shadow. i'd really like to know where you rank certain characters in speed?

3. umm I wasn't talking about gameplay. i was talking about the opening intro.

4. "and shadow is good (him, shadow, and blaze are the closest things to martial artists) , but not martial artist good. knuckles can take him (he's dealt with martial artist before)" you posted this so I showed you that shadow is not a combatant to be messed with. and so what if tails said that. since knuckles was created sonic always beats him even in a straight up fist fight. he got beat by rouge if I remember correctly

5.you know you can beat metal overlord without switching out of sonic right their was no cut scene of them attacking with their abilities. have you played sonic & knuckles the only game where the hyper transformation happened cause the only way to transform was by getting the super emeralds. first let me ask you if you know what standard gear is. standard gear are items that character has most if not all the time batarangs are standard gear for batman web shooters are standard gear for spiderman why because when you pick up a batman or spiderman comic the chances of them using or having those items on their person is nearly 100% now compare that to knuckles. second you should also no that the sonic & sega all-stars is non canon right it has nothing to do with the sonicverse. you should have realized when characters from super monkey ball and virtue fighter were in it. "Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit" please provide link (i wasn't going to argue about this but its my fault for bringing it up) its probably from a wiki anyway. if he does while they'er fighting than knuckles won't have time to defend cause shadow is faster than knuckles.

"Yeah, i get your point, that is a problem... however his feats suggest he is supersonic, ex the afterimages in sonic advance" on the wiki it says that knuckles is NEAR-SUPERHUMAN SPEED but based of feats from the game you say knuckles is at least the speed of sound so the wiki must be wrong about knuckles speed but if the wiki is wrong about knuckles it might be wrong about other stuff as well thus the wiki is unreliable. and while i'm at it you keep bringing up sonic and knuckles stalemating 7 times which games did this happen in again because knuckles was always sonic's punching bag the only time i'd say they stalemated was in sonic adventure when sonic didn't want to fight.

the wikia is not made by anyone with authority over the sonicverse it's made by random fans with no more insight than you or me they make mistakes like everybody else. ignoring feats from the actual game and simply going by what another person wrote is no way to win an argument in fact you lose credibility that way. so calling the wiki fact is not the way to win.

#98 Posted by MonsterStomp (20392 posts) - - Show Bio

Knuckles.

Online
#99 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

@oblivion360:

1. no, it's right, sonic is hypersonic. it's just that shadow was faster than sonic when he was holding back, but when sonic stated that it was time to give it his all against ultimate emerl, he stopped going sonic speed and went hyper. all this shows is that Sonic's casual speed is about sonic speed and is below shadow's, but he can surpass shadow by a lot if he wanted.

2. He's faster that casual sonic (not anymore though), outdone by serious sonic.

3. full tilt is not canon, that's gameplay and that wasn't what I was saying. He ran close Sonic's speed in the cutscene, and in the cutscene the wiki states he was going supersonic speeds, all this to say he's not a slowpoke.

4. yeah, and..? knuckles h2h prowess is well known (even tails stated so, and he's seen sonic fight) and he has great feats too. it's not wrong, it's just extra baggage ;-).

5. there is no such thing as "Sonic's energy", it was just chaos energy, it's how they were able to use their signature moves unique to them. also I never stated the wikia was wrong, I said it was confusing, two totally different thing. and you're wrong, he can transform with just the M.E. "Hyper Knuckles (ハイパーナックルズ, Haipā Nakkuruzu?) is Knuckles the Echidna's hyper transformation that is gained when he taps into the power of seven Super Emeralds and 50 rings or the Master Emerald." and that "racing game" just proved it was standard gear, sorry. Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit :-P and shadow did it pretty fast, but guess what, he still charged energy and had to pull it out, all knuckles has to do is hit the ground before he is surrounded in lava, and what can shad do then? nothing.

if that's what you gathered then you're not as informed as you seem (I never stated or shown the wikia to be unreliable, you just misunderstood, again if so show where I displayed that) and facts do suit me, almost as much as misinterpreting suits you, at least this fanboy is logical, "fanboy" out B-).

1. read what your saying does it really make sense. if the game states that sonic can run 7 times the speed of sound (mach 7) and then says that shadow can run faster than sonic that means he's at least 7 times the speed of sound which is hypersonic. the fact that you need to come up with a theory (thats nothing but made up crap and speculation, are you forgetting that shadow is one of the few people sonic takes seriously going so far as to try and kill each other) to justify the wiki should tell you something.

and just in case you don't know here is a list of mach speeds subsonic speeds= mach 0.8 transonic speed= mach 0.8 - mach 1.2 supersonic speeds= mach 1.2 - mach 5 hypersonic speeds mach 5 - mach 10 anything higher is hypersonic+

2. you shouldn't try to pass off a theory as fact . and wait are you trying to say emerl is faster than shadow. i'd really like to know where you rank certain characters in speed?

3. umm I wasn't talking about gameplay. i was talking about the opening intro.

4. "and shadow is good (him, shadow, and blaze are the closest things to martial artists) , but not martial artist good. knuckles can take him (he's dealt with martial artist before)" you posted this so I showed you that shadow is not a combatant to be messed with. and so what if tails said that. since knuckles was created sonic always beats him even in a straight up fist fight. he got beat by rouge if I remember correctly

5.you know you can beat metal overlord without switching out of sonic right their was no cut scene of them attacking with their abilities. have you played sonic & knuckles the only game where the hyper transformation happened cause the only way to transform was by getting the super emeralds. first let me ask you if you know what standard gear is. standard gear are items that character has most if not all the time batarangs are standard gear for batman web shooters are standard gear for spiderman why because when you pick up a batman or spiderman comic the chances of them using or having those items on their person is nearly 100% now compare that to knuckles. second you should also no that the sonic & sega all-stars is non canon right it has nothing to do with the sonicverse. you should have realized when characters from super monkey ball and virtue fighter were in it. "Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit" please provide link (i wasn't going to argue about this but its my fault for bringing it up) its probably from a wiki anyway. if he does while they'er fighting than knuckles won't have time to defend cause shadow is faster than knuckles.

"Yeah, i get your point, that is a problem... however his feats suggest he is supersonic, ex the afterimages in sonic advance" on the wiki it says that knuckles is NEAR-SUPERHUMAN SPEEDbut based of feats from the game you say knuckles is at least the speed of sound so the wiki must be wrong about knuckles speed but if the wiki is wrong about knuckles it might be wrong about other stuff as well thus the wiki is unreliable. and while i'm at it you keep bringing up sonic and knuckles stalemating 7 times which games did this happen in again because knuckles was always sonic's punching bag the only time i'd say they stalemated was in sonic adventure when sonic didn't want to fight.

the wikia is not made by anyone with authority over the sonicverse it's made by random fans with no more insight than you or me they make mistakes like everybody else. ignoring feats from the actual game and simply going by what another person wrote is no way to win an argument in fact you lose credibility that way. so calling the wiki fact is not the way to win.

2. Actually emerl is faster than both sonic and shadow based on emerl's data banks(this is towards cosomoman or whatever your name is, serious sonic fought ultimate emerl which means that he could have had the time to reassess the data he gathered.(when he is in his ultimate awakened state which is a large increase in power, and skill and better processed thinking.)

#100 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmoman said:

@oblivion360:

1. no, it's right, sonic is hypersonic. it's just that shadow was faster than sonic when he was holding back, but when sonic stated that it was time to give it his all against ultimate emerl, he stopped going sonic speed and went hyper. all this shows is that Sonic's casual speed is about sonic speed and is below shadow's, but he can surpass shadow by a lot if he wanted.

2. He's faster that casual sonic (not anymore though), outdone by serious sonic.

3. full tilt is not canon, that's gameplay and that wasn't what I was saying. He ran close Sonic's speed in the cutscene, and in the cutscene the wiki states he was going supersonic speeds, all this to say he's not a slowpoke.

4. yeah, and..? knuckles h2h prowess is well known (even tails stated so, and he's seen sonic fight) and he has great feats too. it's not wrong, it's just extra baggage ;-).

5. there is no such thing as "Sonic's energy", it was just chaos energy, it's how they were able to use their signature moves unique to them. also I never stated the wikia was wrong, I said it was confusing, two totally different thing. and you're wrong, he can transform with just the M.E. "Hyper Knuckles (ハイパーナックルズ, Haipā Nakkuruzu?) is Knuckles the Echidna's hyper transformation that is gained when he taps into the power of seven Super Emeralds and 50 rings or the Master Emerald." and that "racing game" just proved it was standard gear, sorry. Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit :-P and shadow did it pretty fast, but guess what, he still charged energy and had to pull it out, all knuckles has to do is hit the ground before he is surrounded in lava, and what can shad do then? nothing.

if that's what you gathered then you're not as informed as you seem (I never stated or shown the wikia to be unreliable, you just misunderstood, again if so show where I displayed that) and facts do suit me, almost as much as misinterpreting suits you, at least this fanboy is logical, "fanboy" out B-).

1. read what your saying does it really make sense. if the game states that sonic can run 7 times the speed of sound (mach 7) and then says that shadow can run faster than sonic that means he's at least 7 times the speed of sound which is hypersonic. the fact that you need to come up with a theory (thats nothing but made up crap and speculation, are you forgetting that shadow is one of the few people sonic takes seriously going so far as to try and kill each other) to justify the wiki should tell you something.

and just in case you don't know here is a list of mach speeds subsonic speeds= mach 0.8 transonic speed= mach 0.8 - mach 1.2 supersonic speeds= mach 1.2 - mach 5 hypersonic speeds mach 5 - mach 10 anything higher is hypersonic+

2. you shouldn't try to pass off a theory as fact . and wait are you trying to say emerl is faster than shadow. i'd really like to know where you rank certain characters in speed?

3. umm I wasn't talking about gameplay. i was talking about the opening intro.

4. "and shadow is good (him, shadow, and blaze are the closest things to martial artists) , but not martial artist good. knuckles can take him (he's dealt with martial artist before)" you posted this so I showed you that shadow is not a combatant to be messed with. and so what if tails said that. since knuckles was created sonic always beats him even in a straight up fist fight. he got beat by rouge if I remember correctly

5.you know you can beat metal overlord without switching out of sonic right their was no cut scene of them attacking with their abilities. have you played sonic & knuckles the only game where the hyper transformation happened cause the only way to transform was by getting the super emeralds. first let me ask you if you know what standard gear is. standard gear are items that character has most if not all the time batarangs are standard gear for batman web shooters are standard gear for spiderman why because when you pick up a batman or spiderman comic the chances of them using or having those items on their person is nearly 100% now compare that to knuckles. second you should also no that the sonic & sega all-stars is non canon right it has nothing to do with the sonicverse. you should have realized when characters from super monkey ball and virtue fighter were in it. "Powerflash is a recognized skill on his profile, so one time or 100 he can do it, and it's totally legit" please provide link (i wasn't going to argue about this but its my fault for bringing it up) its probably from a wiki anyway. if he does while they'er fighting than knuckles won't have time to defend cause shadow is faster than knuckles.

"Yeah, i get your point, that is a problem... however his feats suggest he is supersonic, ex the afterimages in sonic advance" on the wiki it says that knuckles is NEAR-SUPERHUMAN SPEEDbut based of feats from the game you say knuckles is at least the speed of sound so the wiki must be wrong about knuckles speed but if the wiki is wrong about knuckles it might be wrong about other stuff as well thus the wiki is unreliable. and while i'm at it you keep bringing up sonic and knuckles stalemating 7 times which games did this happen in again because knuckles was always sonic's punching bag the only time i'd say they stalemated was in sonic adventure when sonic didn't want to fight.

the wikia is not made by anyone with authority over the sonicverse it's made by random fans with no more insight than you or me they make mistakes like everybody else. ignoring feats from the actual game and simply going by what another person wrote is no way to win an argument in fact you lose credibility that way. so calling the wiki fact is not the way to win.

2. Actually emerl is faster than both sonic and shadow based on emerl's data banks(this is towards cosomoman or whatever your name is, serious sonic fought ultimate emerl which means that he could have had the time to reassess the data he gathered.(when he is in his ultimate awakened state which is a large increase in power, and skill and better processed thinking.)