Rules
- Ben is as he was in a new hope
- Legends versions
- No prep
- Standard gear
- Morals off
Location
- Begin visible
- Begin 50 feet apart
- Fight takes place here:
Who wins and why?
Who wins and why?
Ti should win.
Old Ben was still good in old age but he wasn't as good as he once was. I never felt like Ben could defeat Vader, but Ti is still in her prime and she is more skilled than Old Ben. She is also more powerful in the force
Ben is definitely more skilled than Ti with a blade. He lost some of his skill and physicality from his RotS version, but at that point in time he was leagues ahead of Ti as a fighter, so while he might not be leagues ahead here, he still is, for sure. She's more powerful, and that could lead to her winning, especially given Ben's highly defensive fighting style.
Shaak could stomp him in the Force given she was Tking Galen in TFU. Granted, it was on a Nexus, but Obi-Wan's Force power can't be compared to Galen on any level.
Shaak could stomp him in the Force given she was Tking Galen in TFU. Granted, it was on a Nexus, but Obi-Wan's Force power can't be compared to Galen on any level.
Wasn't Galen not as powerful at that time?
Shaak could stomp him in the Force given she was Tking Galen in TFU. Granted, it was on a Nexus, but Obi-Wan's Force power can't be compared to Galen on any level.
Wasn't Galen not as powerful at that time?
Marek at that time was still sporting enough power to Crush an Uggernaught - that alone places him far above Kenobi. He also has other accolades and statements that is extremely impressive.
@dccomicsrule2011: Actually, Galen by this time was powerful enough to do this:
Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them.
Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems.
When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless. A heavy booming sound came from deeper in the Temple, and was getting louder. He had certainly attracted someone’s attention now.
-- The Force Unleashed
TFU is very inconsistent and I don't like to take that game seriously, everyone in that game is an amped Force user even a Fodder Jedi such as Rahm Kota.
I don't see Shaak Ti is beating Obi-Wan with the force, and that being said Obi-Wan is better duelist than Shaak, even if this is Old Ben he can still take this for a majority.
@dccomicsrule2011: Ah, cool.
I have a hard time accepting anyone that was dropped like rocks, by Boba with a single jab to the face to be "Force amped" but, hey, that's just me....
Boba dropped RotS Kenobi when he was thirteen tbh, Rahm can't really be lowballed through that showing.
Rahm hasn't really done anything to prove himself impressive from the get-go (besides losing to someone who is seen as a "terrible" duelist by most). So, it really isn't low-balling.
@dccomicsrule2011: Galen is only regarded as terrible in comparison to people who are far better than him.
Anyway, Kota's not that bad actually.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-rahm-kota-respect-thread-1630382/
Galen is only regarded as terrible in comparison to people who are far better than him.
The way people talk about him in comparison to even a 7 tier is "he sucks". I mean what level do people actually put him on? A 6 tier duelist?
Anyway, Kota's not that bad actually.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-rahm-kota-respect-thread-1630382/
Well, he has decent TK feats at least.
Ben. I don't see how Ti would be powerful enough to "stomp" Ben with the force.
She was TK'ing Galen - someone who is miles and miles above Kenobi in the Force.
TFU is canon in Legends, so I have no idea why it shouldn't be counted. And as for Rahm being fodder in TCW, says who? You? Who's to say Rahm's power didn't actually grow post-Clone Wars?
Also if I'm being frank, Kota is also above Kenobi in the Force...
@dccomicsrule2011: That was pre prime Galen.
@dccomicsrule2011: That was pre prime Galen.
Pre-prime Galen was still listed as being more powerful than many Jedi during the CW (when he was in his teens, no less), crushed a Uggernaught and blasting hundreds of droids away with a TK push. Those feats at least put Galen on TCW Maul level - and he has wrecked Kenobi with the Force on at least 2 different occasions, IIRC. Marek intrinsic Force abilities are just that good it seems.
@dccomicsrule2011: No one is denying that Galen is more powerful, but you make it seem like Ti is just as powerful just because she was able to tk him. Galen uses juyo, something that is weak to force attacks, so it makes sense that someone like Ti would be able to tk Galen, especially since he's primarily a lightsaber duelist. If Kenobi and Galen had a duel, Kenobi would most likely be able to tk him as well. This doesn't make him more powerful, though.
That is why, I said ; Everyone in TFU is Force amped, even fodder Kota. If you put there; Obi-Wan, he would start to lift AT-TA vehicles with ease, because of the concept of TFU. We never see other characters (such as Dooku, Obi-Wan, Windu, Maul etc.) in that game and what they could do with that highly exaggerated concept, clearly Obi-Wan could do some crazy things with the Force if he would be in that TFU game.
Vader says this ;
You've done nothing ! You've defeated an old man, a recluse ! You must face a true jedi master--- A member of the Jedi Council---
Clearly, he meant that Kota is fodder in comparison with Jedi Council Members and that level. And Obi-Wan is much better (in both force and saber) than any average council member you can get...
Anyways, I think I made it clear that why I am ignoring TFU feats, Ben Kenobi should win this.
No one is denying that Galen is more powerful
The fact you noted it was pre-prime Galen suggested otherwise.
but you make it seem like Ti is just as powerful just because she was able to tk him.
I never once said she was just as powerful as he was.
Galen uses juyo, something that is weak to force attacks
Which is why Kenobi was pushing Maul around during their duels as well, right?
so it makes sense that someone like Ti would be able to tk Galen, especially since he's primarily a lightsaber duelist.
The fact that she was constantly doing it shows that she was very much around his level of power. It wasn't just one push, it was several displays of the Force.
If Kenobi and Galen had a duel, Kenobi would most likely be able to tk him as well.
Doubt it.
This doesn't make him more powerful, though.
Of course he isn't; Galen would absolutely crush him.
So I guess that means Yarael Poof would have been a great match for Galen too, right?
LAL - Vader's opinion isn't infallible.
@dccomicsrule2011: When I mentioned it being pre prime, it was me suggesting it isn't as impressive as you made it out to be. Also, I never said you said she was as powerful as he is, I said you made it seem like it, which is what you did. Maul is good enough in lightsaber combat to make up for the weaknesses of juyo, galen isn't. You doubt it, but it makes perfect sense that Ti can tk galen right? Guess Ti is more powerful then Kenobi now....
When I mentioned it being pre prime, it was me suggesting it isn't as impressive as you made it out to be.
TK'ing someone constantly, who is sporting feats that allows him to wreck the likes of Ob-Wan is pretty impressive.
Also, I never said you said she was as powerful as he is, I said you made it seem like it, which is what you did.
If you say so...
Maul is good enough in lightsaber combat to make up for the weaknesses of juyo, galen isn't.
Sources have told us that Galen has perfected the art of dueling, and that he's a master swordsman. Sure he's no Maul, but he isn't too shabby either.
You doubt it, but it makes perfect sense that Ti can tk galen right?
Yes, because Shaak has actually done it before.
Guess Ti is more powerful then Kenobi now....
Yes, she is.
It's times like this I wish Obi had the Force powers to resist being beaten via power by characters in Maul's/Anakin's league. Not that he was on their level, just strong enough that they can fight.
Ah, what the hell. Obi wins because he is slightly stronger than ROTS in force powers IIRC and Shaak was only TKing someone who was weakened by a Nexus and was amped by the same Nexus, which she had been residing on for years, and the length you spend in a Nexus increases the power of said amp. And you only have to be very loosely comparable to directly TK someone, Ventress has TKed Anakin, someone who could ragdoll her and Obi has even TKed Maul with small nudges. For all we know Shaak is Mace or Ventress level, and not good enough to ragdoll Kenobi.
I'am not really convinced that Maul-level people can ragdoll Obi easily or solidly, but only with maximum effort and I've never really seen an absolutely clear cut ragdoll either, Obi has always been looking the other way, weakened or exhausted. And Maul has never ragdolled an Obi using Deflection, because unlike Shaak he has the luxury or being faster on the draw than Obi.
So I'll say Kenobi, whose Deflection and speed will let him avoid a ragdoll and who's durability will let him survive direct TK. He'll get some bruises, sure, but when he gets close he plays a tight game and wins ultimately.
@dccomicsrule2011: Kenobi's force powers are underestimated so much that it's laughable. Kenobi wouldn't have lived as long as he had if he only relied on saber combat. He was very powerful in the force, which I think most people seem to forget, because of his supposed "weak" force wall. I don't think Kenobi's force wall is weak, it's just the foes he has come across are powerful enough to break it. Kenobi is superior to Ti in saber combat and force abilities.
I'am not really convinced that Maul-level people can ragdoll Obi easily or solidly, but only with maximum effort and I've never really seen an absolutely clear cut ragdoll either, Obi has always been looking the other way, weakened or exhausted.
Right...because it's not like Darth Maul is choking a charging and ready Obi-Wan or anything like that, or the fact that Maul was evading other Jedi while leaving Obi useless - that's all apart of our imagination:
Kenobi's force powers are underestimated so much that it's laughable.
No ones is underestimating Obi-Wan's Force powers....it's just that powerful Force users such as Dooku, Darth Maul, etc, etc have all stomped him. And the person Shaak was throwing around is close to their level.
Kenobi wouldn't have lived as long as he had if he only relied on saber combat.
Red herring. No one here said he did....
He was very powerful in the force, which I think most people seem to forget, because of his supposed "weak" force wall.
If you can point where I said he was weak in the Force it would be grand.
I don't think Kenobi's force wall is weak, it's just the foes he has come across are powerful enough to break it.
Which is sad for Ben, since he's facing another one that could break through it.
Kenobi is superior to Ti in saber combat
I agree.
force abilities.
@dccomicsrule2011: I don't recall saying you said he was weak in the force. In other threads, i've noticed people talking about Kenobi's force wall as if it was weak. Again, Shaak was most likely able to throw around Galen because juyo is weak to force based attacks, and galen is primarily a lightsaber duelist. Ti is nowhere near as powerful as Galen. Also, the people that have stomped Kenobi with force are >>>> TI.
*sigh*
I'm not doing this over and over again, I already explained my case and you've done nothing to actually debunk it besides a string of red herring, and strawman arguments. Think what you will, I don't care LAL. I lost all interest in this debate - and I really don't know why I'm debating so hard for a character I don't even like much.
Maul has both ragdolled and choked a combat-ready, fresh Obi-Wan, so..
True, it's probably just wishful thinking. But I doubt Maul could ragdoll Kenobi if he was resisting before Maul struck, and not trying to break Maul's hold. Of course Kenobi could not hold Maul off indefinitely, but I don't think it's fair to say that Kenobi is always vulnerable to Maul's telekinesis, he could protect himself from a few attacks, given the chance.
Maul did ragdoll Kenobi there, but he cut him off mid-sentence and clearly by surprise, when Kenobi was not actively protecting himself, which his speed will allow him to do if he fought Shaak. I agree Kenobi would get ragdolled 10/10 but Maul isn't ragdolling Kenobi as effortlessly as someone like, say, Dooku.
*sigh*
I'm not doing this over and over again, I already explained my case and you've done nothing to actually debunk it besides a string of red herring, and strawman arguments. Think what you will, I don't care LAL. I lost all interest in this debate - and I really don't know why I'm debating so hard for a character I don't even like much.
Coulda fooled me. As far as I'm concerned, you've yet to prove Ti > Kenobi in terms of force abilities. Your arguement was that she was able to throw about Galen, who in your opinion, would cream Kenobi (no he wouldn't). I say again, Juyo is weak against force attacks, plus Ti was on a nexus. Kenobi would be able to replicate Ti's feats of throwing about a pre prime Galen.
^^
I clearly stated I was done, yet you reply trying to continue the discussion with the same repetitive stuff I've already discredited. Give it a rest already.
Obi-Wan actually grew in the Force after RotS, so I don't know how Shaak is "miles and miles" above him.
Personally, I wouldn't rely too much on Shaak Ti hurling pre-prime Marek as an indication of power. I mean, of course it is, but Rahm Kota, someone who is roughly in Obi-Wan's power class, did the same while wounded, not to mention that Shaak was seemingly empowered by a nexus:
And found himself in the center of a ring of Felucians. There must have been fifty of them—warriors, shamans, and rancor riders standing alongside parents, children, and mushroom farmers. Their faces were hidden by their headdresses; he couldn’t read their intent. But the Force swirled around them in thick, turbulent currents. Shaak Ti’s death affected them deeply, so profoundly entangled had she become in the energy flows of the world.
Well, good, he thought. She was responsible for the planet’s imbalance. With her gone, maybe the dark side could reassert itself and the natural rhythms of life resume.
-- The Force Unleashed
To be fair, the comic states that Felucia was a dark side nexus, but given that it was described as such from PROXY's point of view, as well as the fact that Shaak is a Jedi Master who would find it more convenient to take advantage of that environment, it is a less reliable account on that matter.
TFU is canon in Legends, so I have no idea why it shouldn't be counted. And as for Rahm being fodder in TCW, says who? You? Who's to say Rahm's power didn't actually grow post-Clone Wars?
Also if I'm being frank, Kota is also above Kenobi in the Force...
Because SW fanbase deems canon only what they think will make them win the debate. And they hate videogame canon stuff. Its another videogame vs comic elitists problem.
Bump!
I believe that they're relatively even in terms of skill, with Kenobi edging out slightly. Shaak has more stamina and has more power. I'm not sure, at the moment.
Backing Ti due to speed and stamina. Old Ben is more skilled, probably, but is likely less powerful.
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