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#51 Posted by Saren (25682 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@citizenbane: Apologies for calling you out unnecessarily then. My experience with Enzeru is limited and I was wondering what you thought of his arguments and MM being unable to TP him.

I debated Sentry vs Martian Manhunter with Enzeru once, and he got so aggravated over the suggestion that Sentry could lose that Static banned him for swearing his head off at me. That should give you some idea of what I think of his arguments.

Moderator
#52 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@dredeuced: Interesting. For you to say that is quite something for Void's power level. What about BFR like he did to the Black Flash? Surely that's still on the table?

What he did to the Black Flash would not apply because Black Flash chased Wally to the end of the universe. If Wally attempted that he'd just be BFRing himself because Void has no need to chase him.

Now Wally HAS pseudo-BFR'd both Savitar and Cobalt Blue by running them into the Speed Force, which completely absorbed their energy. Who knows if that would work on Void -- it's entirely speculative if Void would be able to resist the Speed Force dump.

I see. Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.

@lvenger said:

@citizenbane: Apologies for calling you out unnecessarily then. My experience with Enzeru is limited and I was wondering what you thought of his arguments and MM being unable to TP him.

I debated Sentry vs Martian Manhunter with Enzeru once, and he got so aggravated over the suggestion that Sentry could lose that Static banned him for swearing his head off at me. That should give you some idea of what I think of his arguments.

Right I can see this'll go nowhere continuing my debate with him. Thanks for the heads up

#53 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly don't really care what anyone says here, Sentry should, by all means, lose this fight quite handily. "Unlimited Power" and "Unlimited Speed" are both meaningless things that are just stated and that his feats clearly don't corroborate. If he had that, then at his full potential, he destroys all omniverses with a movement, and basically teleports. That's just silly. Saying, "They say he has unlimited power!" Isn't a valid excuse for saying that he can actually live up to that. They also say he has the power of a million exploding suns, which isn't unlimited.

Sentry gets curbed by the combined powers of both teams. Any individual? Yeah, he would murder them easily. This is 2 teams of superheroes, and Sentry is in for the beating of his life. Void or not, he's gonna get face rolled when you have, what 4-5 planet-busting characters on a team working together.

#54 Posted by TDK_1997 (14897 posts) - - Show Bio

The team should be able to do it.

#55 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5439 posts) - - Show Bio

Full Void Sentry ftw. Without PIS or Norn Stones I don't see him going down

#56 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Limitless? Please do give me a break, Feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements and Sentry doesn't have the feats to back that up. He's extremely strong and fast, that much is true but he has no proof of having unlimited strength and speed. It's the same for Hulk in that department too. He's supposed to have unlimited strength but there's always a bar we can measure them by. And Sentry's speed bar<<<<<Wally's speed bar. You can hate that feat all you want but I have more to prove Wally>>>>>>>>>>Sentry in speed

No one doubts that Flash is faster than the Sentry in the end of the day, but ...

Oh boy, let me get the laughs out of my system. (Ahem) Now that I've done that, let me tell you've made rookie error number one on the battle forum. TRAVEL SPEED IS NOT THE SAME AS COMBAT SPEED. That's in nice big capital letters so you see how mistaken you are. What you have just posted is a travel speed feat. That's all well and good but in that time, Sentry TRAVELLED with Thor to that far away planet. He didn't land a gajillion hits on him or even fight with him in that time. He flew him to another planet. That is a clear travel speed, not combat speed. Wally has thrown thousands of punches in less than a second during a fight with Zoom. And in that first IMP feat I posted, you'll also see he said he could have hit Zum a thousand times before Zum blinked. Again, please, I implore you, read the damn scans before replying and please remember the golden rule that travel speed is not the same as combat speed. Sentry wasn't fighting at that speed, only travelling at it.

Sentry wasn't fighting at that speed, because that was not a part of his mission. He is there to secure Thor and not to rip him apart. Thor had already problems dealing with the velocity - what would have strikes caused to him?
But that's just an assumption of course, so you don't and won't take it seriously, but it still features half of the context there - Sentry was not there to fight.

Secondly how many characters with Superman's and Flash's speed are there on the Earth? Not that many, who would have challenged the Sentry. He is one of his kind on the Earth and no one was ever able to really challenge him in that department. With that being said, we have seen him performing various speed feats like repairing constructs in Superspeed and in the process being everywhere at once, something Superman and Flash are capable of pulling off.
We have seen the Sentry catching bullets from handguns, which put him at microseconds-reaction, but then we also saw him catching bullets from alien-tech super rifles, which had much more power behind them and that would put him even higher.

The Sentry is stated to have limitless strenght and speed. What we saw during Siege didn't really look like he had massive problems doing what he is supposed to be able to do. He easily overpowered opponents like Thor, who were lifting stuff heavier than planets before.
We don't know Sentry's limits and the OP specifically states that he is fighting at HIS FULL POTENTIAL, which truly puts him in the limitless category.

And even without that we still saw what he did during Uncanny Avengers. He moved MANY times at the speed of light and in a matter of moments he was MANY lightyears away. Yes, he traveled that distance, but what judging by his power-set he still had to move his molecules over there.
Do the math ... how MANY times do you have to move faster than light to even travel one lightyear? And how MANY times more would you have to move faster than light to travel MANY lightyears? That sounds to me like it's fancy enough.
Then there is also the question why Flash should be the only one able to trade punches, while traveling and other specific characters can't? Superman can fight at high speeds. Why couldn't Sentry? Sentry is not Silver Surfer, who travels fast thanks to his board (if that's even still like that). Sentry moves fast under his own power.

Please, I am to Superman as what you are to Sentry. I know what he's capable of. Superman's punches have shockwaves to them too and have caused earthquakes from his mere striking power. Don't overestimate Sentry and underestimate Superman to fit your flawed argument. And yes, I admit Thor has better striking feats than Superman with Mjolnir. And please stop with the unlimited strength argument. Saying it enough times will only convince you, not people who want feats to back it up.

I don't overestimate Sentry and I don't underestimate Superman. They're two totally different characters and one of them is ridiculously more powerful than the other. Of course not neccessarily in the terms of strenght and speed department judging by feats through out the comics, but even without overestimating, or underestimating anyone I'm telling you that the Sentry is the far, far, far more powerful character and if you disagree with that, than that's on you and you obviously either hate the Sentry for what he was, or you didn't quite grasp the story behind his power.

Ah so this is the part where you show me Sentry and Void's planet busting feats? What's that? There aren't any quantifiable ones? Oh what a shame you can't back up what you're saying with proper feats. Such a shame.

There is more than enough stuff in the FAQ thread. I did write them, to simply guide the people there, if they have a question.
Everyone who knows the Sentry at least a little bit knows that he has planet-busting feats and easily surpasses planet-busters, even when he is in weaker mental states, which always make him less powerful.

You're still relying on the limitless fallacy? How quaint. Shame I debunked it earlier on. So that leaves us with Wally actually being the one to possess damn near unlimited speed and outclassing the Sentry by a mile along with being an expert at vibrating his molecules and being able to have entire fights in less than a second. Yeah I think it's clear who'll do more damage to you don't you? Unless you're going to be biased to Sentry like you are in your FAQs?

Did you just call me biased? That's actually pretty damn disheartening :-7
Please don't do that ever again. I'm smart enough to differ between having an biased opinion and not being biased. I will tell you, when I'm biased and right now it's not the case. Right now I'm just not willing to deal with people who don't know that Sentry can easily bust planets, but still like to come up with limitations for him.

Wally will have handed Sentry his ass before the Void can even blink. He's done it to far faster people than the Sentry and WILL get the first shot in, I can guarantee that. You claim to know these characters yet these arguments reek of ignorance of them. Void has no defense against someone who can hit him a thousand times in less a second with more force in each punch than being punched by Superman. Close to infinity in fact. The speed steal is down to Wally's control over all motion given his connection to the speed force meaning he can rob the Void of all his Kinetic energy before Void can move an eyelid.

The only thing that gives the Flash a chance in this fight is in fact his speed-steal and even that is questionable, because of Void molecule manipulation.
As I said it before ... punching stronger than Superman is nothing special. What I did not mention before is that your so called "infinite mass punch" which Flash executed didn't cause as much damage as one would think it did. I'm not sure if you understand the physics behind punches, with a certain amount of speed behind them. I hope you don't think that if Superman punched you with an FTL punch, that he would destroy the planet. If you think so, then you don't have the slightest clue how reality works and that reality applies even for comics, if the Plot Force is not involved.

Forget about...Ugh I've done enough replying to you for one day. You haven't even looked at the thread based on that comment because MM is that much higher than any other telepath Sentry has ever faced. I can call in some more experts on Wally and Manhunter to prove my points far more succintly than I can.

Son, that's not how it works.
The Void was never threatened by any kind of telepathy, and neither was the Sentry really, but we know that Sentry erased the memories of so many powerful telepaths.
Saying that Martian Manhunter automatically wins the battle is biased beyond belief. One should never make such a claim, because we don't know the limits of Sentry's telepathic powers / limits. Even if Martian Manhunter had much better telepathic feats than some of the best telepaths in Marvel (which is questionable), we would still not know if he would surpass Void's limit, therefore that argument negates it-self and telepathy as an argument becomes irrelevant.

I can't assume that Void can resist Martian Manhunters telepathy, because he never had any problems with powerful telepaths in Marvel and you can't assume that Martian Manhunter would overpower the Void telepathically, because in your opinion his feats are better than some of the higher tier mutants in the Marvel universe. Which ever side still insists to bring that argument in, is clearly the more biased side and I'm not biased towards anyone, while you claim that I am, which is a pity and lowers the level of this debate.

#57 Posted by patrat18 (9794 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Eh, really no point stepping in. Typical Sentry thread, especially considering who's posting in it. "Void has defeated Xavier telepathically!" (not really). Void has also failed to beat Spider-Man telepathically, but whatever. Void doesn't actually have a single telepathy showing that even remotely compares to most of Martian Manhunter's mid-level TP feats, so if I point out that J'onn's TP has worked against people like Dr. Destiny and the Red King, both of whom are ludicrously more powerful than Sentry, that's really the entire argument wrapped up then and there. That is, if I wanted to trumpet high-end feats like they're everyday occurrences for the character, but I really don't feel like stepping into Enzeru's shoes to see what that feels like.

I don't know why anyone even bothers trying to debate with Enzeru any more. He's so infatuated with his fantasy ideal of the Sentry that it's impossible to hold any kind of discussion with him; suggest that Sentry might not be the all-powerful entity he thinks he is, and sooner or later Enzeru will start crying about how the only reason (the only reason! Nothing else!) that you think Sentry can lose is that you hate the Sentry and can't stand the thought that your favorite character would lose to Lord Reynolds, Peace Be Upon Him.

Honestly, Void doesn't have a single offensive telepathy feat that compares to even New 52 Martian Manhunter's showing of defeating a psychic so powerful he murdered billions of telepaths with a wayward thought. That's the size of the gulf between them as far as psychic ability goes.

do you have any scans

#58 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

Typical Sentry thread, especially considering who's posting in it. "Void has defeated Xavier telepathically!" (not really).

I wish you would stop lying, CitizenBane. You lied about me before. You made things up years ago and you're still doing it. I get it, you don't like Sentry and you don't like me, but lying to make me look bad is just ... It's a shame, man.

I'm not saying that Void defeated Xavier telepathically. I'm saying that Xavier was never the secret weapon to take out the Void via telepathically, something people here believe Martian Manhunter would do. If Xavier can't do it in the slightest, why should Martian Manhunter be able to do it? We don't know if he can do it, since we don't know Void's limits, so there is no point in argueing that.

Void has also failed to beat Spider-Man telepathically, but whatever.

Void did beat Spider-Man telepathically, but Spider-Man has more willpower than most of the people in the Marvel Universe (in my biased opinion) and he was the only one, who ever managed to make a move, even though being attacked by the Void. Great showing for Spider-Man. I've seen that guy fighting through powerful illusions, which made him believe that he was paralysed and that all hope was gone.

I don't know why anyone even bothers trying to debate with Enzeru any more. He's so infatuated with his fantasy ideal of the Sentry that it's impossible to hold any kind of discussion with him; suggest that Sentry might not be the all-powerful entity he thinks he is, and sooner or later Enzeru will start crying about how the only reason (the only reason! Nothing else!) that you think Sentry can lose is that you hate the Sentry and can't stand the thought that your favorite character would lose to Lord Reynolds, Peace Be Upon Him.

Once again, you're taking it far and spreading lies and misconception.

I don't mind Sentry losing, but the problem is that no one on Comicvine knows who to let him fight against. Superman? It will turn into a gigantic thread, even though Sentry wins that battle.
Then we have the Void fighting characters like Phoenix and other characters like that, which Void in my opinion should never win on Comicvine, but people argue for him.

You say that I'm a Sentry cock-rider, you say that I want him to defeat Shuma-Gorath in his own dimension. You're spreading lies and as I said it, that's a huge shame.

Honestly, Void doesn't have a single offensive telepathy feat that compares to even New 52 Martian Manhunter's showing of defeating a psychic so powerful he murdered billions of telepaths with a wayward thought. That's the size of the gulf between them as far as psychic ability goes.

Once again, you're totally ignoring the context behind Void.

He was powerful enough to withstand any telepathical attack on Marvel Earth and we don't know if he would be powerful enough to withstand Martian Manhunter's attacks or not. We simply don't know. If we assume that it's a telepathical stalemate, because it simply is a stalemate, then all what remains is Martian Manhunter with his other abilities against the Void and you know exactly that he doesn't win that fight.

I debated Sentry vs Martian Manhunter with Enzeru once, and he got so aggravated over the suggestion that Sentry could lose that Static banned him for swearing his head off at me. That should give you some idea of what I think of his arguments.

Once again, more lies.
You know exactly what my problem with you is, CitizenBane. I once called you a passive aggressive troll and that not, because of the stuff you said to me. It's because of the stuff you used to say to anyone and you usually still do it.
You have the attitude of an elitist and don't respect people many users on Comicvine, even though you see some of them on a daily basis.

I could case less if Sentry loses to Martian Manhunter. What I have a problem with your running around and trolling people, spreading lies and running to Static Shock as soon as someone calls you out on your BS.
Funnyly enough Static Shock is someone, who used to troll and insult people big time, before he became a mod, so I guess you two found each other back then.
Knowing you you would instantly ban me, if you had mod rights and knowing you I bet you already tried to set it up.

But none of it matters - just do me a favour and stop lying.

#59 Posted by Odinsonnn (308 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's just take a minute to address that @JonSmith said Jo'nn kills Sentry..

#60 Posted by Odinsonnn (308 posts) - - Show Bio

But on a more serious note, @JonSmith says Martian manhunter kills Sentry..

#61 Posted by TheBournePoster (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

We can't know for sure whether Sentry could resist Martian Manhunters telepathic assault. But we can't just assume he can. Batman has resisted telepathy before. I guarantee that he would not have a snowball's chance in hell of resisting a telepathic assault from Manhunter. Manhunter is more powerful than any telepath Sentry has encountered. He solos.

#62 Posted by Dredeuced (5550 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru:

Sentry wasn't fighting at that speed, because that was not a part of his mission. He is there to secure Thor and not to rip him apart. Thor had already problems dealing with the velocity - what would have strikes caused to him?

But that's just an assumption of course, so you don't and won't take it seriously, but it still features half of the context there - Sentry was not there to fight.

Secondly how many characters with Superman's and Flash's speed are there on the Earth? Not that many, who would have challenged the Sentry. He is one of his kind on the Earth and no one was ever able to really challenge him in that department. With that being said, we have seen him performing various speed feats like repairing constructs in Superspeed and in the process being everywhere at once, something Superman and Flash are capable of pulling off.

We have seen the Sentry catching bullets from handguns, which put him at microseconds-reaction, but then we also saw him catching bullets from alien-tech super rifles, which had much more power behind them and that would put him even higher.

Sentry clearly does not have the reaction time to keep up with his own speed. When he sped to Jupiter faster than he could scream it demonstrated it -- he was clearly unaware of how fast he was going and was surprised how far he went. There's no reason to believe giving into Void increases his reaction time.

The Sentry is stated to have limitless strenght and speed. What we saw during Siege didn't really look like he had massive problems doing what he is supposed to be able to do. He easily overpowered opponents like Thor, who were lifting stuff heavier than planets before.

We don't know Sentry's limits and the OP specifically states that he is fighting at HIS FULL POTENTIAL, which truly puts him in the limitless category.

Sentry is also stated to have the power of a million exploding suns, which is not limitless. He has literally never demonstrated limitless speed or strength. Statements mean nothing. Full potential is like saying 100% fed Galactus. It's not a thing that has any quantification (I mean atleast Galactus has an alt universe story to back him up). You are making pure assumptions and they are not true.

Then there is also the question why Flash should be the only one able to trade punches, while traveling and other specific characters can't? Superman can fight at high speeds. Why couldn't Sentry? Sentry is not Silver Surfer, who travels fast thanks to his board (if that's even still like that). Sentry moves fast under his own power.

Because Flash has traded punches with people who A: Are massively faster than Lightspeed and B: While he himself was going massively faster than lightspeed. His fight with Zoom involved as much and they were dodging and hitting each others blows constantly. Flash demonstrates greatly FTL reflexes all the time, as well, and is rarely surprised by his own speed -- unlike Sentry. Sentry's ability to travel quickly doesn't give him significant combat speed in the same way that Superman doesn't have combatspeed to match the Flash.

Superman has atleast demonstrated Nanosecond reaction time, which still pales in comparison to Flash who has several definitively picosecond reaciton feats and plenty of feats that are greatly faster than picosecond with a little math.

Son, that's not how it works.

The Void was never threatened by any kind of telepathy, and neither was the Sentry really, but we know that Sentry erased the memories of so many powerful telepaths.

Saying that Martian Manhunter automatically wins the battle is biased beyond belief. One should never make such a claim, because we don't know the limits of Sentry's telepathic powers / limits. Even if Martian Manhunter had much better telepathic feats than some of the best telepaths in Marvel (which is questionable), we would still not know if he would surpass Void's limit, therefore that argument negates it-self and telepathy as an argument becomes irrelevant.

You probably shouldn't complain about people being insulting to you then call them "son" in response. It's intentionally diminutive.

Again, Void has been suppressed by Emma Frost specifically. It allowed Bob to control himself for ages. Martian Manhunter has plenty of world level telepathy feats and is massively superior to Xavier and Emma. The argument doesn't become irrelevant. If void had the telepathic powers you speak of then why has he never used them in a direct confrontation with scores of heroes that telepathy would easily put down? If he could so easily wipe thor's mind, why didn't he make the entire Avenger's cast forget the Void existed?

His effect was more subtle than what other telepaths use in fights. The argument doesn't become irrelevant just because you want it to.

Void did beat Spider-Man telepathically, but Spider-Man has more willpower than most of the people in the Marvel Universe (in my biased opinion) and he was the only one, who ever managed to make a move, even though being attacked by the Void. Great showing for Spider-Man. I've seen that guy fighting through powerful illusions, which made him believe that he was paralysed and that all hope was gone.

Spider-man has had his mind taken over dozens of times, so not really.

I could case less if Sentry loses to Martian Manhunter. What I have a problem with your running around and trolling people, spreading lies and running to Static Shock as soon as someone calls you out on your BS.

Funnyly enough Static Shock is someone, who used to troll and insult people big time, before he became a mod, so I guess you two found each other back then.

Knowing you you would instantly ban me, if you had mod rights and knowing you I bet you already tried to set it up.

But none of it matters - just do me a favour and stop lying.

There isn't a conspiracy to get you banned or have your opinions sequestered. The victim complex rarely garners sympathy.

#63 Posted by mjolnirson (1327 posts) - - Show Bio

team even with morals on.

#64 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@enzeru said:

Sorry for bumping this old thread, but I simply can't understand how anyone could say that the team would win this fight ...

Why would you do such a thing ?_?

With Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and Wally West capable of soloing Sentry along with Hulk and Thor who've fought evenly with the Sentry, I think you've bumped this thread for the wrong reasons if you're trying to prove Sentry can win this one. He loses horribly to the combined forces of the Avengers and the Justice League.

Wonder Woman solo's Sentry per OP: at full power,the million suns,full void powers everything written about him

LOLOLOLOLOL, NO.

Sentry/Void team busts regularly and effortlessly. Void only "lost" to himself, Sentry, and Thor when he wanted to die. He's atomized Molecule Man by having greater control of molecular manipulation! Sentry/Void stomps and it's not even close. The very notion that WW could solo, or any of the others, is so absurd you've lost all credibility in this argument.

#65 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@enzeru said:

Sorry for bumping this old thread, but I simply can't understand how anyone could say that the team would win this fight ...

Why would you do such a thing ?_?

With Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and Wally West capable of soloing Sentry along with Hulk and Thor who've fought evenly with the Sentry, I think you've bumped this thread for the wrong reasons if you're trying to prove Sentry can win this one. He loses horribly to the combined forces of the Avengers and the Justice League.

Wonder Woman solo's Sentry per OP: at full power,the million suns,full void powers everything written about him

LOLOLOLOLOL, NO.

Sentry/Void team busts regularly and effortlessly. Void only "lost" to himself, Sentry, and Thor when he wanted to die. He's atomized Molecule Man by having greater control of molecular manipulation! Sentry/Void stomps and it's not even close. The very notion that WW could solo, or any of the others, is so absurd you've lost all credibility in this argument.

I'm not debating in this thread anymore but you've lost credibility with the arrogance of that statement and having not even read this thread. I'm not the one who needs a recheck on what they're saying, you are.

#67 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Thank you for giving me a reason to flag you. Your ignorant attitude to the rules of the battle forums do you no good whatsoever. Please try and learn a little more about these characters rather than hedging your bets on Sentry. Oh and try actually reading the thread. It'll do wonders on getting the damn context right.

#68 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

Sentry clearly does not have the reaction time to keep up with his own speed. When he sped to Jupiter faster than he could scream it demonstrated it -- he was clearly unaware of how fast he was going and was surprised how far he went. There's no reason to believe giving into Void increases his reaction time.

I can run a distance, before finishing a scream. I can punch few times, before finishing a scream. I don't see how that's even a point.
He was never surprised by his own speed. The reason why he was surprised, is because he believed that he saw the Boogeyman near the planet.

Sentry is also stated to have the power of a million exploding suns, which is not limitless. He has literally never demonstrated limitless speed or strength. Statements mean nothing. Full potential is like saying 100% fed Galactus. It's not a thing that has any quantification (I mean atleast Galactus has an alt universe story to back him up). You are making pure assumptions and they are not true.

Strenght-wise he has. It didn't look like he was struggeling with his opponents during Siege.
Speed-wise there is barely anyone Sentry ever faced, where he would have needed to utilize his speed. He was rarely ever in a scenario, where he needed it. The Marvel Universe is not full of speedsters and especially not Marvel Earth.

The Million of Exploding Sun statement is supposed to capture the his incomprehensible power. You can't comprehend what one exploding sun would do and you especially can't comprehend what one million would do.

You have DC fans telling you that Superman would become all powerful and turn into Superman-Prime if he spent the rest of his life in the sun, but when a Marvel fan tells you that Sentry would become all powerful, if he was mentally stable and at the peak of his potential, which he is supposed to be as the OP stated it all the hell breaks loose on Comicvine: "BUT SENTRY GOT KNOCKED OUT BY A HELICARRIER!"

Because Flash has traded punches with people who A: Are massively faster than Lightspeed and B: While he himself was going massively faster than lightspeed. His fight with Zoom involved as much and they were dodging and hitting each others blows constantly. Flash demonstrates greatly FTL reflexes all the time, as well, and is rarely surprised by his own speed -- unlike Sentry. Sentry's ability to travel quickly doesn't give him significant combat speed in the same way that Superman doesn't have combatspeed to match the Flash.

That's basically the same statement as the Martian Manhunter argument and that's where I don't follow. Just because Martian Manhunter might be the more powerful telepath than Xavier, some people here want to believe that he would mind-rape the Void, who never had any problems with Xavier at all. We don't know the limits of Void's telepathic resistances, yet the Martian Manhunter fans insist that he would easily defeat the Void.
But that's simply not how it works. How can you downgrade a character for not having anyone in his own universe, who comes close to his limits? That's biased beyond belief.

Besides that we still never saw the Void getting hurt by anyone else other than the Sentry, who is supposed to have limitless strenght and speed if stable. He was the only person, who was ever able to harm the Void physically. All the others failed big time.
They managed to harm the Void when they gained reality warping powers and if the Speed Force doesn't give Flash reality warping, why should anyone assume that he will be able to do any real damage to the Void?

Once again people are completely downgrading Void's power levels, just because he never had real limits in his own universe, but because of Comicvine's bias towards DC comics and Superman / Flash / Martian Manhunter threads get created in which a regular Sentry loses fights to cartoon versions of the DC characters, which is ... *facepalms himself to the Moon*


You probably shouldn't complain about people being insulting to you then call them "son" in response. It's intentionally diminutive.

I always do that. It's a tick. No offense to anyone.

Again, Void has been suppressed by Emma Frost specifically. It allowed Bob to control himself for ages. Martian Manhunter has plenty of world level telepathy feats and is massively superior to Xavier and Emma. The argument doesn't become irrelevant. If void had the telepathic powers you speak of then why has he never used them in a direct confrontation with scores of heroes that telepathy would easily put down? If he could so easily wipe thor's mind, why didn't he make the entire Avenger's cast forget the Void existed?

Just like your opening post, that's wrong.
Emma Frost was only able to build a White Room inside of Sentry's head as a last solution to help him, if something goes wrong. On her second try to use that White Room and help the Sentry regain control she managed to help him, but as soon the Void found out what she was doing, she nearly got killed. Luckily she had her diamond form.

Void didn't use his powers, because he is the Void and does whatever he is up to. You can't explain the Void. During the Siege of Asgard he was mind-raping everyone on the battlefield and killing gods left and right.
During the opening arc of the New Avengers he never used his empathy, but instead beat them up physically. There were events. If Void would want to kill them, they would all die in a matter of seconds.

There isn't a conspiracy to get you banned or have your opinions sequestered. The victim complex rarely garners sympathy.

I'm not asking for sympathy, nor do I care for sympathy from people on the internet. All I'm doing is to tell a guy, that I know what kind of a person he is and that everything is not like he would like it to be.
And yes, bla bla bla, I know that the same can be said for me.

#69 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@green_skaar: Thank you for giving me a reason to flag you. Your ignorant attitude to the rules of the battle forums do you no good whatsoever. Please try and learn a little more about these characters rather than hedging your bets on Sentry. Oh and try actually reading the thread. It'll do wonders on getting the damn context right.

I thought you weren't debating in this thread anymore? Also the irony for flagging someone who called you ignorant when you call them ignorant in turn! Keep up the great job lying and being a hypocrite!

#70 Edited by TheBournePoster (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

Exactly, we don't know the Voids telepathic resistance. So instead of making shit up and assuming he could resist the attack (cough cough Enzeru) we can assume that since Martian Manhunter has better feats, he is the stronger telepath, and could thus invade Sentry's mind.

#71 Posted by Saren (25682 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru said:
@citizenbane said:

@citizenbane said:

Typical Sentry thread, especially considering who's posting in it. "Void has defeated Xavier telepathically!" (not really).

I wish you would stop lying, CitizenBane. You lied about me before. You made things up years ago and you're still doing it. I get it, you don't like Sentry and you don't like me, but lying to make me look bad is just ... It's a shame, man.

Yes. There's a grand conspiracy on this site, comprising a whole bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to make you look bad. I am Chief Wizard of said conspiracy, and my minions are worming their way into the hearts and minds of the higher-ups as we speak. Mea culpa.

I'm not saying that Void defeated Xavier telepathically. I'm saying that Xavier was never the secret weapon to take out the Void via telepathically, something people here believe Martian Manhunter would do. If Xavier can't do it in the slightest, why should Martian Manhunter be able to do it?\

Because Martian Manhunter has telepathy feats that are substantially better than Xavier's? This isn't hard. For god's sake, the same piece of the Void that Xavier faced also lost a psychic fight against Cyclops. Someone who doesn't even have telepathy.

Void did beat Spider-Man telepathically,


Spider-Man shook off the Void's telepathy to the point where even the Void was shocked and stated it wasn't possible. Sure, he passed out from the strain shortly afterwards, but he's a street leveler with no concrete telepathic resistance and no psychic abilities whatsoever. Contrast that with someone who has telepathy that functions across different timelines, across galaxies, and occasionally mucks with the heads of dudes who blow up universes, and tell me what you think is going to happen.

We don't know if he can do it, since we don't know Void's limits, so there is no point in argueing that.

We've been down this road before. I'm sure you remember it. Empty supposition is not a valid case. "Yes, Void has no telepathy feats on Martian Manhunter's level, but we don't know Void's limits, so let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume telepathy won't work on him!". Please. And then you want people to stop thinking you might have the slightest hint of bias in your posts.

but Spider-Man has more willpower than most of the people in the Marvel Universe (in my biased opinion) and he was the only one, who ever managed to make a move, even though being attacked by the Void. Great showing for Spider-Man. I've seen that guy fighting through powerful illusions, which made him believe that he was paralysed and that all hope was gone.

Get outta here. If you're really going to try and claim Spider-Man throwing off the Void's telepathic attack isn't a pitiful display from the Void because Spider-Man has so much willpower, give me a heads-up so I can know when to roll my eyes and keep scrolling.

Once again, you're taking it far and spreading lies and misconception. I don't mind Sentry losing, but the problem is that no one on Comicvine knows who to let him fight against. Superman? It will turn into a gigantic thread, even though Sentry wins that battle.

Then we have the Void fighting characters like Phoenix and other characters like that, which Void in my opinion should never win on Comicvine, but people argue for him.

Here's the thing about claiming that I'm lying about the way you debate: I can literally screencap posts from multiple threads where you outright claim that *anyone* debating or thinking of debating against the Sentry is an ignorant hater, whether they're making good arguments or not.

So please, don't tell me I'm taking it too far. Say the word and I'll hold your hand and walk you through how you debate on this forum, using your own words and posts. Just don't assume anyone's going to be dumb enough to believe that you're the Great Wronged One fighting a neverending war for truth and accuracy. You're just another fanboy. Hardly original.

You say that I'm a Sentry cock-rider, you say that I want him to defeat Shuma-Gorath in his own dimension. You're spreading lies and as I said it, that's a huge shame.

I have never said any of these things. You have literally just made them up, put them in my mouth and claimed I said them, which is *ding-ding* a lie. So I'm just the teensiest bit unclear right now as to why you're lying and then lamenting my lies......which you lied about.

What topsy-turvy world do you come from, man?

Once again, you're totally ignoring the context behind Void.

Sure, sure.

He was powerful enough to withstand any telepathical attack on Marvel Earth and we don't know if he would be powerful enough to withstand Martian Manhunter's attacks or not.

He's either capable of it or he's not. Make up your mind. If you think he is, feel free to present telepathy feats from the Void. I'll present some for Martian Manhunter. Up to it or not?

We simply don't know. If we assume that it's a telepathical stalemate, because it simply is a stalemate, then all what remains is Martian Manhunter with his other abilities against the Void and you know exactly that he doesn't win that fight.

I don't assume it's a telepathic stalemate. I'm sure you'd like to despite there being literally no evidence to that effect, but I don't. I am fully prepared to defend Martian Manhunter's telepathic ability as superior to the Void's in every way imaginable, and.......I look forward to seeing you try the same for the Void. Again, are you up to it or not?

Once again, more lies.

You know exactly what my problem with you is, CitizenBane. I once called you a passive aggressive troll and that not, because of the stuff you said to me. It's because of the stuff you used to say to anyone and you usually still do it.

Again, please don't try feeding people BS and assuming they're dumb enough to buy it. You didn't call me a passive-aggressive troll. Don't sugarcoat your language and pretend you're an angel. Not when it would take me a few minutes at best to show everyone the offense that got you banned before the Great Reset that unbanned everyone.

You have the attitude of an elitist and don't respect people many users on Comicvine, even though you see some of them on a daily basis.

I respect many people on ComicVine. Some are even on this thread. I don't respect you, because you don't deserve it. You know this as well as I do. Not respecting you is hardly the attitude of an elitist, merely that of someone who's unfortunately more familiar with you than most. Kindly refrain from making things up about how I think and then claiming they're fact. I believe that's the infarction you're accusing me of. The irony is so thick it is acquiring sentience and making faces at me.

I could case less if Sentry loses to Martian Manhunter.

Yup. That's why you were banned for raging on a Sentry vs Martian Manhunter thread. Totally.

What I have a problem with your running around and trolling people, spreading lies and running to Static Shock as soon as someone calls you out on your BS.

Funnyly enough Static Shock is someone, who used to troll and insult people big time, before he became a mod, so I guess you two found each other back then.

Wow. A troll with a victim complex who resents the mods and thinks they're the real bad guys. So original.

Knowing you you would instantly ban me, if you had mod rights and knowing you I bet you already tried to set it up.

If I had mod rights I'd motion for a removal of the top decks from issue pages because they're just left blank and serve no purpose as far as editing goes. Why even keep them?

You're not a priority to me. Please do not delude yourself.

But none of it matters - just do me a favour and stop lying.

Then what will I do with the whole conspiracy setup? Logistics, man.

Moderator
#72 Posted by Saren (25682 posts) - - Show Bio

There's literally zero evidence that Sentry is fast enough to trade blows with the Flash or capable of defeating the Martian Manhunter in a telepathic battle, but Enzeru's cover-all argument for all such scenarios is "You don't know that! Yes, there are no feats to that effect, but that's only because there's no one like that in the Marvel universe! I'm sure he can do it! He has no limits! If we don't know his limits, how can you say he'd lose?!?".

This is how we debate now? Really? Is that what it's come to?

Moderator
#73 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

Once again people are completely downgrading Void's power levels, just because he never had real limits in his own universe, but because of Comicvine's bias towards DC comics and Superman / Flash / Martian Manhunter threads get created in which a regular Sentry loses fights to cartoon versions of the DC characters, which is ... *facepalms himself to the Moon*


Here's your argument, reapplied to superman:

New 52 Superman has never shown a limit to his strength either, at least in the same way Sentry hasn't. He benched the planet for five days, and was complaining that he wanted more but couldn't get anymore. Since no one has pushed him far enough yet we don't how strong he is. Therefore, you can't say Superman wouldn't one-shot Sentry.

Here's something that I know you're not familiar with because you keep ignoring it: Philosophical Burden of Proof.

See that's a part of an argument to prevent nonsense like, "We don't know that for sure" from mattering. It means that you have to provide the evidence. Sentry not having feats against MMH level Characters is perfectly consistent with him getting destroyed by them. Once again, Sentry not having infinite strength is consistent with what he's shown. "The power of 10 million exploding suns" is not unlimited, Sentry has never been shown to have this power, get over it. And you complain about people fan-wanking other characters?

#74 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. There's a grand conspiracy on this site, comprising a whole bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to make you look bad. I am Chief Wizard of said conspiracy, and my minions are worming their way into the hearts and minds of the higher-ups as we speak. Mea culpa.

There you go, once again...

Because Martian Manhunter has telepathy feats that are substantially better than Xavier's? This isn't hard. For god's sake, the same piece of the Void that Xavier faced also lost a psychic fight against Cyclops. Someone who doesn't even have telepathy.

You do get my point? I'll get to the questionable showings shortly, but we also had impressive showings by the Void / Sentry, who were affecting people, who were highly resistent / immune to telepathy, like it was nothing.
At the same time we never saw the Void being affected by telepathy and everyone, who came near him telepathically suffered.
You simply can't assume that Martian Manhunter mind-rapes the Void. Void never had any problem with telepathy. This is now basically the same as if I were saying that, because Sentry and Void had the upper hand in terms of telepathy against Xavier and even erased the memories from resistent / immune people they would be able to do the same thing to Martian Manhunter. What if Void's tentacles affected Martian Manhunter, like they did it to everyone else? We don't know. We simply can't tell and that's what I'm saying: Martian Manhunter is not winning that battle via mind-rape, because in character versus character nothing suggests that he would be able to. Good for him if he has better feats than Xavier, but would it be enough for the Void? How would you know, without Void ever showing a weakness to it?

Oh and at the point where Cyclops faced "the Void" Void was already dead. He never faced the real Void and you know it exactly.

Spider-Man shook off the Void's telepathy to the point where even the Void was shocked and stated it wasn't possible. Sure, he passed out from the strain shortly afterwards, but he's a street leveler with no concrete telepathic resistance and no psychic abilities whatsoever. Contrast that with someone who has telepathy that functions across different timelines, across galaxies, and occasionally mucks with the heads of dudes who blow up universes, and tell me what you think is going to happen.

It's a ridiculously high showing for Spider-Man. That guy was also the last man standing, when Void beat them all up physically, while everyone else including heavy-hitters was down. Marvel loves Spider-Man. I love Spider-Man. I want him to resist the Void.
It doesn't change the fact that you're using that showing to lowball the Void big time and in the process you ignore the fact that he has affected people, who were able to resist other powerful telepaths. And he did it easily.

We've been down this road before. I'm sure you remember it. Empty supposition is not a valid case. "Yes, Void has no telepathy feats on Martian Manhunter's level, but we don't know Void's limits, so let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume telepathy won't work on him!". Please. And then you want people to stop thinking you might have the slightest hint of bias in your posts.

I am not biased, as I told you above. I simply say that we can't tell if his telepathy would affect him or not, because we don't know Void's limit. It's not that hard to understand.
And then Martian Manhunter would have to fight him without telepathy and I know that not even you would give Martian Manhunter the victory in that regard. But then I look around and see people saying that Superman and Wonder Woman are enough to solo the Void. Yeah, I want people to stop thinking I might be biased and to look into the mirror instead.
Neither Superman, nor Wonder Woman are defeating the Void and you know it.

But I don't blame anyone. Coming up with fitting opponents for Sentry and Void is incredibly hard. I personally think that he stomps most of the characters on Superman's level and even above. But when I see threads, where they let the Void face against other high level final bosses, I usually try to avoid such threads, because I know that bias would come into play. In every one of these threads the debate turns out into a "insert random uber-powerful character" versus Molecule Man, since Void defeated the Molecule Man and if the other uber-powerful character doesn't have the same feats as maybe-yes-maybe-not more powerful version of the Molecule Man years ago, then he automatically loses against the Void.
I think that's stupid and don't like it. If I were biased I would be walking around and telling everyone that Sentry and Void are above universal, because Sentry defeated Molecule Man, but I'm not doing that.

Get outta here. If you're really going to try and claim Spider-Man throwing off the Void's telepathic attack isn't a pitiful display from the Void because Spider-Man has so much willpower, give me a heads-up so I can know when to roll my eyes and keep scrolling.

Spider-Man is amazing. I'm biased towards him and hype him up, whenever I get the chance. Is it PIS, that he resists Void's attack, even though people like Doctor Doom, Thor, Hulk and others can't? Yes, it is. Do I mind it? No, because I love Spider-Man.

Here's the thing about claiming that I'm lying about the way you debate: I can literally screencap posts from multiple threads where you outright claim that *anyone* debating or thinking of debating against the Sentry is an ignorant hater, whether they're making good arguments or not.

I can post more threads, where "respectable" debaters lowball the Sentry big time, because he lost so many fights, without taking related events into context, like his mental state at that point and so on. But that's where people point with the finger at me, laugh and tell me that I'm biased and looking for excuses to still make the Sentry come out on top.
It's BS and you would know it, if you ever watched out for what was happening with the Sentry and so would everyone else. Sentry's fight against World War Hulk is such a damn good showing for the Sentry, because of everything that falls into the context, but what people argue about when it comes to that fight is how Sentry lost to WW Hulk.

That's past bias at that point and switches to ignorance and once again, you know it.

So please, don't tell me I'm taking it too far. Say the word and I'll hold your hand and walk you through how you debate on this forum, using your own words and posts. Just don't assume anyone's going to be dumb enough to believe that you're the Great Wronged One fighting a neverending war for truth and accuracy. You're just another fanboy. Hardly original.

I know what a fanboy is. I know what bias is. But I also know what reality is. What context is and what past events have shown us. As I've said it: I don't have the slightest problem with Sentry losing certain fights, but to actually lose in a way I would aprove of let him face opponents who suit him well. Don't let him face Black Adam, because at his peak Sentry would annihilate Black Adam. Let him face Captain Atom, because Captain Atom brings the stuff to the table, where it actually becomes a fight, that Captain Atom in the end also wins IMO, simply because of more showings.
But when I see a Sentry versus Black Adam fight here, all I see is: "WELL, BLACK ADAM STOMPS, DUDE! HE IS AT LEAST AS POWERFUL AS SUPERMAN, SO HE WILL KILL THE SENTRY!"

And you're calling me a fanboy?

I have never said any of these things. You have literally just made them up, put them in my mouth and claimed I said them, which is *ding-ding* a lie. So I'm just the teensiest bit unclear right now as to why you're lying and then lamenting my lies......which you lied about.

What topsy-turvy world do you come from, man?

I never forget anything and I remember you telling someone, that he should never listen to me regarding the Sentry, because I believe that the Sentry would beat Shuma-Gorath in his own dimension, which is a straight up, astronomical lie.
Because of Marvel VS Capcom 2 I knew who Shuma-Gorath, before even getting into comic books.
I saw you stating that in my opinion Sentry defeats the Beyonder, which is ... Well, yeah :-7

You lied more than once. It's a fact. I'm not mad at you about it. I never was. I'm just sad to see someone doing stuff like that. And if that same person tends to troll passive-aggresivly, it's even more of a pity.

He's either capable of it or he's not. Make up your mind. If you think he is, feel free to present telepathy feats from the Void. I'll present some for Martian Manhunter. Up to it or not?

Void barely has any feats in terms of telepathy. We know that the character has these powers, but he rarely ever used them. With that being said, we know that other characters tried to used it on him and all of them failed. If they all failed, what makes you think that Martian Manhunter won't? Because he has more feats than them and therefore he would be able to overpower the Void? But Void never even struggeled with the other telepaths. Why should he struggle with Martian Manhunter? It's an argument that leads us nowhere.

Let me tell you like this:
If we're talking about feats, then hell even Thor would defeat Void, but he clearly didn't.
If we're talking about feats, then hell even Hulk would outmuscle Void, but he clearly didn't.
If we're talking about cosmic showings, then hell even Doom would outbeam Void, but he clearly didn't.

Void has ... .. . .. . .. . ... 2 telepathic / empathic feats or something, lol! Martian Manhunter has 200. Judging by the amount of feats Martian Manhunter would stomp him.
But Xavier has also 200 telepathic feats and he still wasn't even a slight threat to the Void. We simply don't know who would be a threat to him and you can't say that Martian Manhunter would.

I don't assume it's a telepathic stalemate. I'm sure you'd like to despite there being literally no evidence to that effect, but I don't. I am fully prepared to defend Martian Manhunter's telepathic ability as superior to the Void's in every way imaginable, and.......I look forward to seeing you try the same for the Void. Again, are you up to it or not?

Covered above.
If I would agree to it it would turn into the same stuff I try to avoid, when it comes to the Void and the stuff I described above. I don't want to argue Molecule Man levels compared to other powerful beings and I don't want to argue the telepathic feats of all the characters, who still didn't stand a chance against the Void, simply because I don't know enough about some of these characters. I can't and won't argue them versus Martian Manhunter.
But the simple argument still says: Void was above every single one of them and Marvel Earth threw at him what they had, but nothing happened. We don't know Void's limit and neither do you.

Again, please don't try feeding people BS and assuming they're dumb enough to buy it. You didn't call me a passive-aggressive troll. Don't sugarcoat your language and pretend you're an angel. Not when it would take me a few minutes at best to show everyone the offense that got you banned before the Great Reset that unbanned everyone.

As I said it before. I remember everything. You already forgot that you spread lies about me. Why wouldn't you forget this now?
And yeah, I didn't only call you a "passive-aggressive troll". Back then I added a "fucking" to the sentence, because I was pissed and called Static Shock at the same time to take a look at it and decide if it was ban-worthy or not.
I didn't just lose my cool and troll you, like you've suggested it. I did it on purpose, while being as specific as possible in hope that you would learn a lesson and that not everyone agrees with you trolling people. And the same statement still remains: You're constantly trolling others. I never saw it as a vendetta to defend my own "pride". I did it, because you have no manners and I did it only to you, never to anyone else. Think about that.

I respect many people on ComicVine. Some are even on this thread. I don't respect you, because you don't deserve it. You know this as well as I do. Not respecting you is hardly the attitude of an elitist, merely that of someone who's unfortunately more familiar with you than most. Kindly refrain from making things up about how I think and then claiming they're fact. I believe that's the infarction you're accusing me of. The irony is so thick it is acquiring sentience and making faces at me.

Oh my.

Yup. That's why you were banned for raging on a Sentry vs Martian Manhunter thread. Totally.

You know exactly what's up.

Wow. A troll with a victim complex who resents the mods and thinks they're the real bad guys. So original.

Already covered up: I knew exactly what I was doing, so no victim-role there.
And it doesn't change the fact that Static Shock was insulting others, long before I was on Comicvine, but just lurking around and long before he became mod. I never forget, but unfortunately you do.

#75 Posted by TheBournePoster (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has never shown a weakness to supernova explosions. From this we can conclude that he could survive one.

#76 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has never shown a weakness to supernova explosions. From this we can conclude that he could survive one.

That's the wrong perspective... Batman has never been attacked by / with supernova explosions, so saying that he could survive it, doesn't even make sense in that regard.
But powerful telepaths did try to deal with the Void and they failed. We don't know how strong you have to be as a telepath to deal with the Void and if it's actually possible at all.

In a different thread I argued that no one ever defeated the Void, besidesthe Sentry in some of their fights and then someone told me that wouldn't even matter at all, because no on ever defeated Aunt May either and therefore we would assume that she is invincible.
But that is a weird argument to make, because Aunt May was never multiple times in fights against all kinds of Marvel Earth teams. Void was and he came always out on top, most of the time without even trying.

And once again to the stuff with the telepathy... I'm saying that we don't know Void's limits on telepathy and not that he has no limits. I know for a fact that Sentry and Void have these limitations, but we still don't know what these limitations exactly are and if Martian Manhunter would surpass them and it's nearly impossible to say it.

#77 Edited by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: lol lvenger, i don't want to butt in here, but i think it's really funny that YOU gave enzeru a TRAVEL SPEED feat of flash saving those people, and then you LAUGHED at him and told him he made a huge mistake when he gave you a TRAVEL SPEED feat of sentry and thor.

hypocrisy.

#78 Posted by TheBournePoster (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes: There's actually a difference. In the Flash feat, Flash is interacting and performing complex motions, as well as tracking and finding multiple people.

#79 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes said:

@lvenger: lol lvenger, i don't want to butt in here, but i think it's really funny that YOU gave enezeru a TRAVEL SPEED feat of flash saving those people, and then you LAUGHED at him and told him he made a huge mistake when he gave you a TRAVEL SPEED feat of sentry and thor.

hypocrisy.

I've always found it amusing the travel vs reaction speed in general. If you can travel faster than you can react then you are in sense blindly and wildly going forward and most likely smashing into anything in your way!

#80 Posted by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebourneposter: that doesn't constitute combat.

anyway i'm not going to into this, i was just pointing that out.

#81 Posted by TheBournePoster (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes: I'm not going into this, I was just pointing out that you're wrong.

#82 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes said:

@lvenger: lol lvenger, i don't want to butt in here, but i think it's really funny that YOU gave enezeru a TRAVEL SPEED feat of flash saving those people, and then you LAUGHED at him and told him he made a huge mistake when he gave you a TRAVEL SPEED feat of sentry and thor.

hypocrisy.

I've always found it amusing the travel vs reaction speed in general. If you can travel faster than you can react then you are in sense blindly and wildly going forward and most likely smashing into anything in your way!

First off, there's a difference as the Bourne Poster mentions

@cooldes: There's actually a difference. In the Flash feat, Flash is interacting and performing complex motions, as well as tracking and finding multiple people.

Secondly, if that's not good enough for you, then how's this? Wally throwing thousands of punches in less than a second in a fight with Zoom

Or if you're going to quibble with me because Jesse had lent Wally her speed for the battle and he still couldn't keep up with Zoom, how's this to debunk my supposed hypocrisy? Do try and learn the differences between travel and reaction speeds, the both of you. There's the real hypocrisy. Get back to me when Void moves like this skaar and enzeru. Or shows picosecond reaction times. I think this clears up who the real hypocrites are on this thread.

#83 Edited by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

enzeru is doing a good enough job here, and i agree that The Sentry should clear this, especially with all of the non-factors on the team.

Void is undefeated so we really don't know what it would take to kill him.

He took on a mixture of The fantastic four, The inhumans, the avengers, and the x-men(also dr. strange and spiderman were there too) all at the same time and just dominated them, and he only used shapeshifting. none of his other vast array of powers. and they had to get emma to beg him to unvoid.

He's obviously an accomplished team buster and i just don't see him losing this one.

#84 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes said:

enzeru is doing a good enough job here, and i agree that The Sentry should clear this, especially with all of the non-factors on the team.

Enzeru is doing a good job? Lol, I doubt that considering I countered his points and was told by Bane his past history of throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get his own way about the Sentry.

@cooldes said:

Void is undefeated so we really don't know what it would take to kill him.

So just because someone hasn't been beaten on panel, you assume there's no way to beat him? What flawed logic.

@cooldes said:

He took on a mixture of The fantastic four, The inhumans, the avengers, and the x-men(also dr. strange and spiderman were there too) all at the same time and just dominated them, and he only used shapeshifting. none of his other vast array of powers. and they had to get emma to beg him to unvoid.

Manhunter's taken on the entire League including Wally who's a teambuster in his own right before so you can't really use the odds Void's gone up against as a good argument

@cooldes said:

He's obviously an accomplished team buster and i just don't see him losing this one.

Well he's going up against two teambusters. One with Superman physical stats and near unparalleled telepathy and a speedster with a sheer plethora of ways to use his speed to damage the Sentry. So in essence, it's one supposed team buster vs two team busters. I think two team busters is greater than one, don't you?

#85 Edited by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: i'm not in this bro. i stated that in the first line of my first statement, starting with the first word.

i just wanted to point out that you showed us flash covering large distances in a very small amount of time, which is a great feat, but it wasn't a combat feat. but when enzeru responded with Sentry lugging thor over vast distances in a small amount of time, you laugh in his face an tell him that he made the mistake of using travel speed instead of combat speed, when infact, he was just responding to you, who did the same thing, first.

#86 Edited by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes: Well would you say I've covered myself with the feats I've given you instead? The ones where Flash has fights in less than a second and reacts in picoseconds? I take it that's not a travel speed feat in your eyes?

#87 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@green_skaar said:

@cooldes said:

@lvenger: lol lvenger, i don't want to butt in here, but i think it's really funny that YOU gave enezeru a TRAVEL SPEED feat of flash saving those people, and then you LAUGHED at him and told him he made a huge mistake when he gave you a TRAVEL SPEED feat of sentry and thor.

hypocrisy.

I've always found it amusing the travel vs reaction speed in general. If you can travel faster than you can react then you are in sense blindly and wildly going forward and most likely smashing into anything in your way!

First off, there's a difference as the Bourne Poster mentions

No one said there wasn't a difference. I find it funny people saying characters are traveling far faster than they can react. Are we suppose to believe Thor, Sentry, Surfer and others are flying through space unable to react accordingly? They must routinely run into stars and planets if not!

#88 Posted by Equonox (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@patrat18: I can get a scan later, but it was in the backup for JLA (#4, I believe) that detailed why he came to earth - the entire Martian race was wiped out when a telepathic creature on earth simply reached out/probed the solar system with his mind - Martian Manhunter mind wiped/killed that creature. I won't quite say effortlessly, but he did. He also shut down Despero's mind in JL #20 with compete ease, and he's also a high-level telepath (who had, apparently, beaten the JL before with his TP).

#89 Edited by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru: @lvenger: So? i really hate people who lowball other people. ESPECIALLY when it's irrelevant to the matter at hand. you've continuously lowballed sentry throughout this thread and now you're trying to lowball enzeru?!?!

You've countered all of his points?

that's great and all, but so has he to you. rinse amd reapeat. this is what debating is.

What does it matter? why even take someones word for something that happened in the past and has NOTHING to do with Sentry vs The jla and avengers.

what enzeru has done in the past is completely irrelevant to how well he is doing in this thread.

saying that is just rude, and unnecessary, and it's the kind of thing that should be flagged. plain disrespect. i don't usually ever flag people but if you continue to make undermining commenta that have nothing to do with the topic and are just to hurt other users i may have to.

not cool dude.

#90 Posted by patrat18 (9794 posts) - - Show Bio

@equonox: yea i just read it thats insaine

#91 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: I've given you actual combat speed feats for Wally to compensate my supposed 'hypocrisy.' Unless Sentry has those kinds of feats, I doubt he'll be able to keep up with Wally at all.

As for your other part, Thor has really slow as hell combat speed. That has been proved in fights time and time again which is why I and many others use it as a point against Thor being unable to beat Superman in a standard fight. Once Superman uses his speed, Thor is at a loss There's a difference between travelling at those kinds of speeds and being able to react to them. Let me illustrate myself with two examples. Firstly, look at this scan of Superman travelling at FTL speeds (he also can't fight at FTL speeds) and see if it doesn't make sense

Note what the boxes say about Superman "leaving his earthly perceptions behind." For most characters, travelling at that speed does not require you to perceive what is going on. Also note the "There is no time for judgement, only action." There's a really great blog on the travel/combat speed distinction but for the life of me, I can't find it.

Secondly, do you read Thor: God of Thunder? If so, you'll be aware of the event in issue 9 when present Thor and King Thor are speeding towards Gorr after King Thor blasts him light years away to a distant moon. Both Thors slam head first into a chunk of moon thrown at them by Gorr. There's no reaction to it, just a straight on blitz. Whilst travelling at these high speeds, Thor has never shown being able to react according to the speed he's travelling at. By contrast, characters like Wally have been able to react nearly as fast as they're moving. That's the key difference that you're not understanding and which I hope I've clarified.

#92 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes: What have I done wrong to deserve flagging? Bane has knowledge of this guy and to be honest, he's displaying the kind of behaviour Bane told me he's done before. Flag me if you want but all I'm doing is pointing out the misconceptions in this thread. If that's a flagworthy offence, then so be it. You'll have flagged me for no justifiable reason at all.

I know a fair bit about Sentry, in fact he's one of the characters I offer to debate with so far be it from me to lowball him when I know his capabilities. But I know Wally's and MM's too and they can most definitely take down the Sentry by themselves. And I've read Enzeru's FAQs and they're sorely lacking in the objective department along with application of his extensive Sentry knowledge to the question at hand.

#93 Posted by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: i would also like it of you stopped skewing my words.

"void is undefeated so we really don't know what it would take to defeat him"

you: "so just because someone has yet to be defeated on panel, you assume there's no way to beat him? what flawed logic."

^ i never said anything remotely close to what you state is my "flawed logic". undermining my logic won't help you convince anyone that sentry loses against the jla and avengers, i don't even understand why you would even say that.

and with beings like the living tribunal and TOOA, why would i possibly think he can't be beat?

all i said is that we don't know what it WOULD take to defeat him. meaning he can be defeated, we just don't know exactly how much power is required.

lowballing other users..

still not cool bro..

#94 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes: How am I lowballing other users if I point out that their logic is flawed? Pointing out that someone's arguments or logic is flawed isn't the same as a personal insult. You seem to have gotten into your head and here's where you make another mistake. It's an impersonal gesture to question someone's logic or arguments. I'm not insulting you or enzeru when I question the validity of your arguments or logic. That's how debating works and if you don't like that, I would have stayed out this thread if I thought like you.

#95 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@green_skaar: I've given you actual combat speed feats for Wally to compensate my supposed 'hypocrisy.' Unless Sentry has those kinds of feats, I doubt he'll be able to keep up with Wally at all.

As for your other part, Thor has really slow as hell combat speed. That has been proved in fights time and time again which is why I and many others use it as a point against Thor being unable to beat Superman in a standard fight. Once Superman uses his speed, Thor is at a loss There's a difference between travelling at those kinds of speeds and being able to react to them. Let me illustrate myself with two examples. Firstly, look at this scan of Superman travelling at FTL speeds (he also can't fight at FTL speeds) and see if it doesn't make sense

Note what the boxes say about Superman "leaving his earthly perceptions behind." For most characters, travelling at that speed does not require you to perceive what is going on. Also note the "There is no time for judgement, only action." There's a really great blog on the travel/combat speed distinction but for the life of me, I can't find it.

Secondly, do you read Thor: God of Thunder? If so, you'll be aware of the event in issue 9 when present Thor and King Thor are speeding towards Gorr after King Thor blasts him light years away to a distant moon. Both Thors slam head first into a chunk of moon thrown at them by Gorr. There's no reaction to it, just a straight on blitz. Whilst travelling at these high speeds, Thor has never shown being able to react according to the speed he's travelling at. By contrast, characters like Wally have been able to react nearly as fast as they're moving. That's the key difference that you're not understanding and which I hope I've clarified.

If you find that blog about travel/combat speed, please share the link, I'd be very interested. Thank you.

I have read a fair amount Thor, but not that comic in particular. Thor generally is traveling in a straight line at high speeds due to the nature of his flight (swinging his hammer and holding on). He's not like Surfer who can zig-zag mid flight at high speeds. It's apples and oranges here.

As for that Superman scan, yes he's leaving "earthly perceptions behind" but he's also is capable of "action". But for argument sake, let's say he can't "react", all that shows is Superman is capable of flying faster, by his own power, than he can react. This wouldn't be a blanket restriction for every cosmic traveler.

#96 Posted by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: WHATEVER ENZERU HAS DONE IN THE PAST IS IRRELEVANT.

you guys are debating a topic. The Sentry vs JLA & Avengers.

Any other topic that enzeru was in before this has no weight here. why lowball a fellow user of the vine? it doesn't help your argument.

i'm not going to flag you, i'm not a person that flags others, i try and practice forgiveness, but if tou continuously do it i said that i might have to.

what has happened to enzeru before this thread has nothing to do with his debating in this thread and shouldn't be brought up. that's all.

lowballing isn't cool man..

#97 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooldes: The fact you've just ignored what I posted is an indication this isn't a topic that should be pursued further. I'll end this now.

#98 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

If you find that blog about travel/combat speed, please share the link, I'd be very interested. Thank you.

I have read a fair amount Thor, but not that comic in particular. Thor generally is traveling in a straight line at high speeds due to the nature of his flight (swinging his hammer and holding on). He's not like Surfer who can zig-zag mid flight at high speeds. It's apples and oranges here.

As for that Superman scan, yes he's leaving "earthly perceptions behind" but he's also is capable of "action". But for argument sake, let's say he can't "react", all that shows is Superman is capable of flying faster, by his own power, than he can react. This wouldn't be a blanket restriction for every cosmic traveler.

I've just been searching for it, even on the OP's blog page but I can't find it. I'll ask him about it later.

That's a fair point but it's a demonstration that plenty of characters capable of travelling at that speed aren't capable of reacting to them.

#99 Posted by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru said:
@thebourneposter said:

Batman has never shown a weakness to supernova explosions. From this we can conclude that he could survive one.

That's the wrong perspective... Batman has never been attacked by / with supernova explosions, so saying that he could survive it, doesn't even make sense in that regard.

But powerful telepaths did try to deal with the Void and they failed. We don't know how strong you have to be as a telepath to deal with the Void and if it's actually possible at all.

In a different thread I argued that no one ever defeated the Void, besidesthe Sentry in some of their fights and then someone told me that wouldn't even matter at all, because no on ever defeated Aunt May either and therefore we would assume that she is invincible.

But that is a weird argument to make, because Aunt May was never multiple times in fights against all kinds of Marvel Earth teams. Void was and he came always out on top, most of the time without even trying.

And once again to the stuff with the telepathy... I'm saying that we don't know Void's limits on telepathy and not that he has no limits. I know for a fact that Sentry and Void have these limitations, but we still don't know what these limitations exactly are and if Martian Manhunter would surpass them and it's nearly impossible to say it.

Your argument is illogical because it presumes that because Void can take some telepaths, it can take all telepaths. It's like assuming that because Soft Kevlar stops pistol rounds it'll stop a rifle round. That's basically your comparison.

Also, if we don't know the limits, we assume it's whatever the maximum shown limit is. Superman's strength limit in the new 52 has never been shown, only that he can bench up to the weight of earth, for 5 days straight, without tiring, without the sun, and was still asking for more weight. We don't immediately assume superman can now lift anything simply because he hasn't shown his full limits. We don't assume Hulk has infinite power because Hulk has never shown his limits either.

If we just take those statements at face value, those characters should be considered as omniversal level beings, as infinite strength literally means infinite. Comic book characters can punch dimensions apart, so if the sentry at full power is unlimited, then he should destroy the omniverse with a motion.

We have to use what he's shown to have, not what we assume he could maybe possibly have. Otherwise it basically becomes a "beat my character" thread, and those are just ridiculous.

Just because we don't know Sentry's limits DOES NOT mean we get to assume they're higher than what the character is shown to have.

#100 Posted by Cooldes (4108 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: pointing out my logic is flawed is exactly lowballing. i stated my point. so instead of making a counter argument to my point, you chose to undermine my logic.

and you seem to have dodged the point of that reply. it was to show that you twisted my words into seeming as if my logic was flawed, when in reality what you said was nowhere near what i said.

i said we don't know what it takes to defeat void because he hasn't been defeated yet.

you said that i think because a character hasn't been beat that i assume he can't be beat. then you said my logic is flawed.

none of that relates to what i said, and was just there to undermine my logic.

really far from cool bro...