Sebastian Shaw vs. Superman

Sebastian wins this fight because Superman from man of steel was not very smart and will take him some time to realize Sebastian Shaw power and it will be too late for sho will be more powerful for

Superman wins trivially.

1. Fly to local zoo.

2. Pick up large animal cage.

3. Drop cage around Shaw.

No contact is made with Shaw, so kinetic energy absorbed is negligible. If Shaw uses the energy he has to blow open the cage, Superman simply gets another cage or container and repeats until Shaw exhausts his initial energy reserve.

Superman.

Also, lots of people here don't understand what kinetic energy is. Strangling someone is a lot less kinetic energy than a punch, because a punch has greater velocity than fingers closing around around a throat. Given that Shaw absorbs energy rather than force, strangulation or neck snapping would totally work, as long as Superman did it slowly.

Would throwing him into Orbit work. He caan float there

Yes, because this is Superman's MO. Superman's initial thought would be to punch Shaw, which would give him enough energy to take whatever else Superman has.

Snapping Zod's neck made a sonic blast. That's energy, which Shaw would take. At his full power, Shaw was pushing things back without touching them. Strangling wouldn't work at that point. Superman would do everything else as a last resort, but not before dealing enough damage that Shaw would be invulnerable to everything else.

Obviously you do not understand how his powers work. Yes, it is less energy but it still produces energy and if that energy is absorbed you can't do it. You would continually have to apply more force as it is being absorbed. If the little energy you are putting into it to strangle someone is absorbed while you are doing it(IE absorbing the energy from bullets instantly) then you aren't going to be able to strangle the person plain and simple.

@randomsid:

Shaw doesn't absorb kinetic energy in the sense that he stops things from moving like a Wally West speed steal. He couldn't stop Magneto from lifting him and his submarine out of the ocean, he doesn't stop bullets in mid air like Neo, and he recoils a bit when Magneto bludgeons him steel beams in their final fight so we know he's not impervious to being moved by force.

I should also mention the fact that velocity, and by extension kinetic energy, is relative to your frame of reference. If Superman picks up Shaw and flies to wherever, Shaw can't absorb any kinetic energy from Superman, because from Shaw's inertial reference frame Superman isn't moving and thus has no kinetic energy to begin with. Shaw could absorb kinetic energy from the air molecules he runs into as they're moving, but if Superman moves slow this energy is negligible.

Ok, here is how Superman can win:

• Grab Shaw
• Take Shaw into space
• Leave Shaw
• Superman Win

Now whats a few pounds of TNT going to do to Superman?

...........OP says no BFR.

@m_man: Superman can stay with him till he passes out or dies of the lack of oxygen, or his body freezes solid.

This isn't what a in-character Superman would do not to mention the amount of kinetic energy Shaw would obtain by traveling at insane speeds.

Who says Superman can't move him at normal speeds? it's not like Shaw can actually do anything to stop him with what he has at the start, also if Superman just grabs him by the neck and pants there's not a lot Shaw could do regardless of how powerful he got.

And in-character Superman helped kill off all the other Kryptonians by supplying the means and breaking the neck of the last of them.

He can't absorb by force, gently grab him by the scruff of his neck, take him above orbit, no oxygen, he passes out and Superman wins

@m_man:

In character Superman would probably just drop Shaw in jail. Literally just pick him up by the scruff of his neck and leisurely walk him to jail, given that Superman is aware of Shaw's powers as stipulated in the OP. Shaw would need a jail cell that could withstand a few pounds of TNT, but that's not that hard. A large bank vault could probably work.

Physics says you have to travel at escape velocity but Superman's flight does defy gravity so I'd give you that. However, again, this isn't in character of Supes in the slightest. He'd attack him before he tried anything else if at all.

it's not like Shaw can actually do anything to stop him with what he has at the start, also if Superman just grabs him by the neck and pants there's not a lot Shaw could do regardless of how powerful he got.

Wrong. With power stored, Shaw can release it in massive energy based AoE likes he's done multiple times.

And in-character Superman helped kill off all the other Kryptonians by supplying the means and breaking the neck of the last of them.

Helping people to kill someone isn't the same as doing it yourself. And he didn't try to kill Zod for the entirety of the fight and it was a quick death not letting someone suffer for an agonizing amount of time and even then Supes was in complete despair. So, no, that's not his go-to or something he'd do in-character at all.

People act as if Shaw would just let Clark "gently" grab him or that he can't just take of his shirt or pants.

That would count as BFR which isn't allowed.

Physics' say you need to travel at those speeds to get a spaceship from the surface an into orbit, because they only have that massive thrust when they are on the ground. By contrast, weather balloons dont need that kind of speed and they only stay on Earth because the gas eventually looses the power to support them. That is not the same with someone like Superman that can effectively control his own flight.

And watch and see if Superman cares and if Shaw has any effect on him at all, considering not even Kryptonian weapons did, it's unlikely Shaw has anything of concern to him.

It's in his character to do so if pushed, that's just the end of it. He's done it once, he can be pushed to do so again.

@m_man:

The battlefield is a small city. If Superman imprisons Shaw in a jail or bank vault within the city, then they are still within the defined battlefield thus it's not BFR. And Shaw getting naked would be hilarious, but ultimately wouldn't change a thing. If Shaw only has a few pounds of TNt worth of energy, then Superman is so much stronger and more mobile it'd be like a grown man picking up a toddler and putting him back in the crib.

@dasabi: Many things wrong with that post. First, it was shown many times in the movie that he DOES stop things from moving as he is absorbing the energy(bullets, grenade, rocket launched at him, havocs blast...etc).

And your scenario, for one, is out of character for Superman, and for two assumes that Shaw just lets him do that. Your entire scenario is based off of misinformation.

Shaws abilities have already been explained in this thread abundantly. At this point anyone that says Superman would win is either A) not reading the thread, B) trolling, or C) being a massively biased fanboy. Every single possible way that has been mentioned either A) would not work, B) is not in character, or C) is not allowed by the rules in the OP.

OP is kinda setting Shaw up to win by having no BFR and such

First off.............no. Something NEEDS to travel at escape velocity in order to enter space. Superman is the exception because his flight defies gravity.

And watch and see if Superman cares and if Shaw has any effect on him at all, considering not even Kryptonian weapons did, it's unlikely Shaw has anything of concern to him.

Do you even know how his powers work? Anything Superman throws at him he can throw back or stock up on energy and wait throw it back all at once. Superman was KO'd by another Kryptonian.

It's in his character to do so if pushed, that's just the end of it. He's done it once, he can be pushed to do so again.

He was only pushed because lives were at stake. It's just the two of them in this fight.

Shaw can use the energy to augment his strength. He can just bend the bars open without expending any energy. What you're contending isn't plausible at all.

First off.....wrong, nothing needs to travel at those speeds, there is nothing up there to stop it from leaving. What you need in a spaceship is the initial boost to generate the momentum to get you high enough into the sky that gravity looses it grip on your ship. And again: Weather balloons.

I know how his powers work, I also know the method I described means he can't do anything because he can't turn and throw punches or shoot beams, and all the energy he will be getting is from air friction which doesn't necessarily mean an amount he can use here. If he then resorts to the AOE blast, then he is using all of that stored up energy and only have a useful yield of 5-10% at best. And best of all, once he's used that energy, he's back to nothing again.

And lets just cut to the chase, Superman could stand upright and eventually fly within the World Engine's beam, which certainly hit much, much harder than anything any of the Kryptonians managed during the movie. So yeah, what does Shaw have?

Which doesn't stop him from taking more troublesome opponents into the vacuum of space to have them pass out before bringing them back down again.

@randomsid:

Shaw did not stop a rocket from moving. It hit him, exploded, then he absorbed the shockwaves and heat afterwards. He stopped a bunch of bullets, but only because they also hit him. By the same logic, you can stop bullets too.

On the other hand, he didn't stop Magneto from moving his submarine while he was on it, so Shaw clearly doesn't have any special resistance to being moved. He's not the Blob, and he's not Mjolnir. Shaw and parts of Shaw can be moved, against his will if need be. You seem to think the absorption of kinetic energy means cessation of motion, but this is not true. Go do some research about inelastic collisions and the conservation of momentum, otherwise I think you're speaking from a stance of ignorance here.

@outside_85:

First off.....wrong, nothing needs to travel at those speeds, there is nothing up there to stop it from leaving. What you need in a spaceship is the initial boost to generate the momentum to get you high enough into the sky that gravity looses it grip on your ship. And again: Weather balloons.

LMAO

Do you even physics bro? It's called gravity. Something must travel a minimum required speed to escape a planet's gravitational pull. That's the very definition of escape velocity.

I know how his powers work, I also know the method I described means he can't do anything because he can't turn and throw punches or shoot beams, and all the energy he will be getting is from air friction which doesn't necessarily mean an amount he can use here. If he then resorts to the AOE blast, then he is using all of that stored up energy and only have a useful yield of 5-10% at best.

Not if Superman grabs him like you said he would, in which case he'd fire the energy point blank. Furthermore, he can just use the energy to augment his strength and just beat Superman instead of releasing the energy.

And best of all, once he's used that energy he's back to nothing again.

False. He never uses up all the energy he;s obtained. He always keeps energy stored.

And lets just cut to the chase, Superman could stand upright and eventually fly within the World Engine's beam, which certainly hit much, much harder than anything any of the Kryptonians managed during the movie. So yeah, what does Shaw have?

...............................The World Engine works by increasing gravity.....What Superman tanked was having his gravity increased by an indefinite amount. He was KO'd by a punch from a Kryptonian:

He's not going to get up from the stored an concentrated energy of multiple punches that Shaw would throw back at him.

Which doesn't stop him from taking more troublesome opponents into the vacuum of space to have them pass out before bringing them back down again.

He's not likely to even resort to that. That was never his go-to, ever.

Bump

@dasabi: yes, he did stop it. Yes, it exploded, but it stopped moving, the blast from it stopped moving Ashe was absorbing it. Yes, the bullets hit him, but if he had not stopped them when they hit him and absorbed their energy they would have went right through him, just like they would you. The fact is that they were stopped by his absorbing of their energy.

And the rest of that fits in with my statement that people are not reading the thread. The fight with Magneto has already been explained to be part of the plot. How much of a movie would it have been if he had killed Magneto right then? How much of a movie would it have been if Shaw had not continued with his plan? His plan was to cause a nuclear war to create more mutants and he was on a time frame. He didn't want that time frame interrupted.

And your idea that ANYTHING can move with no kinetic energy is laughable at beat. That's elementary level science. NOTHING can move without kinetic energy. Go ask any scientist/professor if you could continue to move with all kinetic energy you produce being absorbed.

http://www.physics-and-radio-electronics.com/physics/energy/kinetic-energy/what-is-kinetic-energy.html

@randomsid: ridiculous, I wont ride with it, ali was determined to beat forman and did absolutely nothing the whole fight until he had an eventual opening, we can say superman wont get one but thats speculation, and going tit for tat and occasionally have to dodge shaw isnt doing nothing but we not gona call fully determined, suicidal just to give you a victory shaws not winning

@randomsid: omg.....yes he would attack...and after about the fifth time supes realized that same energy blast he shoots at shaw gets shot back, and MISSES!!!! the game has now changed and superman isnt that dumb hes now gotta be defensive and reserved, ESPECIALLY IF HES DETERMINED TO WIN, this is old as hell some one lock this

@randomsid:

All motion, velocity, and kinetic motion is relative. If Superman were carrying Shaw, Superman would be motionless relative to Shaw and thus have no kinetic energy for Shaw to absorb. This would be true even if Superman were hurtling them a million miles an hour through space. Of course Superman wouldn't do that, but what he could do is fly at an indolent 5 mph towards someplace that could contain Shaw, and then leave him there. Shaw doesn't start this battle with enough energy to break free and once Superman grabs him Shaw has no way of absorbing more. Superman could even just grab him and stay still until Shaw passes out from dehydration.

@uncanny_cable: You can't win if you don't attack. Superman, in character, will lead off with attacks. Superman, determined to win, WILL keep attacking. It's as simple as that. I've proven my argument beyond any doubt, prove yours. You can't keep saying Superman would not attack. That is neither in character, nor determined to win.

@dasabi: Wrong again. Your perception of it is relative, but no matter where you are, if he is moving, or even breathing for that matter, he has kinetic energy. You are making things up, I even posted a link for you about kinetic energy. Every single action taken down to taking a breath creates kinetic energy that Shaw can and will absorb.

When you really think about it, Shaw could absorb kinetic energy simply standing in the sun. He could absorb the kinetic energy from birds flapping their wings...etc there are literally billions of sources of kinetic energy Shaw can absorb.

Shaw should take it.

@m_man: I dont think those scientific laws apply to a humanoid the travels fast enough to create sonic booms, its a stalemate, determination does not mean he had to commit suicide, this is like a eagle and a mouse but the mouse can hit back, its ridiculous that the only guy that can do something you guys think has to do something to the point that that he losed or hes breaking the rules of the op, or simply out of character when weve never seen his character in this situation is reaching. Call this stalemate, I dont even like sipes but shaw can do nothing but stand and wait in order to attack thats the lamest s!&t ever, "but If I dont fight this guys fight I lost, lock this up

Already said it doesn't apply to him multiple times.

its a stalemate, determination does not mean he had to commit suicide, this is like a eagle and a mouse but the mouse can hit back, its ridiculous that the only guy that can do something you guys think has to do something to the point that that he losed or hes breaking the rules of the op, or simply out of character when weve never seen his character in this situation is reaching. Call this stalemate, I dont even like sipes but shaw can do nothing but stand and wait in order to attack thats the lamest s!&t ever, "but If I dont fight this guys fight I lost, lock this up

Cool.

@randomsid: you can say he keeps attacking because if he does hell realize its counter productive for a win and there for cant be his only strategy, supes will have no choice but to hit shaw with a heat ray, and if he doesnt fire back then shaw loses for breaking the op, and from there the first one to die loses supes aint feeding shaw till shaw kills him from his own energy, thats out of character, so jus stop this is redundant, you can get give shaw the win without forcing supes to endlessly attacking shaw whicch wont happen

@m_man: thanks bro the positive feedback helps

@uncanny_cable: Have you even seen Man of Steel? There was not a single point in the entire movie where he steps back and says "you know, maybe I shouldn't attack these guys". You are playing it how you would play it, not how Superman would based off of his actions in the movie. In other words, you are taking him out of character. The entire movie he was all about brawling. He never once showed the intelligence to come up with another strategy. Not saying he was an idiot, but when it came to battle all he knew was brawling. And how would Shaw not firing back right away(rather than storing the energy for a more massive attack) break the OP in any way? That literally makes no sense. Do yourself a favor. Take a step back, lose the bias and start thinking about the characters abilities and what they actually showed in their respective films. Forget about the comics completely, they have no place with these two characters. Go by only what they showed they were capable of in the films.

@randomsid:

Shaw never demonstrated the ability to absorb anything he's not in contact with. He even has to walk directly into reactor room to absorb radiation there. If what you think were true Shaw should be absorbing the kinetic energy from celestial motion rather than wasting his time on small fry stuff like a nuclear reactor.

Shaw clearly doesn't have 100% efficiency in absorbing kinetic energy and making things motionless either. If he did he would constantly be surrounded by a zone of absolute zero, because that's what no kinetic energy means at the molecular level. In fact, don't even know if Shaw can absorb or affect latent heat at all since he needed ice to cool his drink. Furthermore, explosions and everything else around Shaw would be silent, since sound is just an oscillating pressure wave.

Lastly, I'm afraid you simply don't have the intellectual chops at the moment to be talking about the bare bones fundamentals of physics. The amount of kinetic energy in a moving body is absolutely dependent on the frame of reference. If you were told otherwise, you were either misled or you misunderstood. Touching a train going 100 mph gives very different results if you are standing inside the train versus outside, because the velocity of the train relative to you is very different.

TLDR: You are poor at physics and poor at CV debates. Character battles are based on feats, not wild extrapolations fueled by imagination and little else. Shaw simply did not show the ability to prevent people or objects from moving via kinetic energy absorption, nor the level of control you're attributing to him.

@dasabi: Because you decided to start insulting rather than debating you have been flagged. When you grow up and can debate without insults try it again.

@uncanny_cable: And by the way, I'd like to actually continue debating you but you are attributing what you would do, not what the character would do. Allow me to show you one simple flaw in your "Superman wouldn't attack" scenario...

Superman: This person can absorb Kinetic Energy, I'll just stay away and avoid him.

Shaw: *starts attacking random citizens absorbing energy while fighting* Come on Superman, show me what you're made of.

Superman: Looks like ai have no choice, I can't let these people die because I don't know how to get around his energy absorption.

The second time he disabled the mask was strategy, and the fact that they moved when he hit them enabled the brawl, you point out a time in the movie he fought anything the didnt move, feel pain, and absorbed wat ever he threw.....and then continued to brawl youd have an argument, but you dont, your jus tryna swindle the comicvine for who knows why

Couldnt superman just grab him by the shirt and then dump him in the middle of the ocean, and watch him drown to incapacitation?

@randomsid: move shaw and the ground below him to a unpopulated part of the city, anybody that dies before that wont effect him like the people that died in fhe building him and zod destroyed didnt, and I never said do nothing I said attack from a distance and dodge when needed until the crater below shaw reaches depths farther then shaw can climb out of

@randomsid: and dasabi was hitting you with good knowledge and you flagged him I wouldnt be mad if you stopped, you the only one still fighting lol ive had fun but it you do stop you the first notch on my comicvine belt :D

@uncanny_cable: He never showed the ability to do that in the movie, he was struggling just trying to hold up the top of the oil rig. And really? The people that died in the train station didn't affect Superman? Really???? That was the whole reason he snapped Zods neck. And once again, attacking from a distance continuously is simply not in his character. If you can't distance yourself from what you would do and simply judge based on what the characters showed in the fiwe will simply have to agree to disagree.

@blackkaizer: That is BFR which is against the rules of this battle. Plus Shaw could still absorb the kinetic energy wile Superman was trying to take him to the ocean. Plus that assumes Shaw just allows him to do that.

@uncanny_cable: Actually he wasn't.he was very wrong on a lot of stuff he posted. I even posted proof of my claims but he ignored it and started throwing insults. I don't debate with immature people that don't know how to debate with insulting the other person. And agreeing to disagree doesn't give you a win in a debate, simply means I got tired of showing you how your scenarios won't work and your only defense being "but Superman wouldn't fight him". It gets boring after a while.

Although that might work, it would be considered BFR, and the conditions of this battle states that's not allowed.

what part of BFR do people not understand holy smokes, so many things people say...