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#101 Posted by nick_hero22 (6871 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people keep mentioning Scorpion BFR'ing when he has only did that once which was a special circumstance, and to top it all off if he BFR someone he goes along for the ride to.

#102 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Note: I never said ripping Wolverine apart would kill him, at best it would incapacitate him for some time.

Anyway, the reason Logan said that to Spidey was to egg Spidey on. Logan new he wouldn't do it which was why he said it.

Grunts aren't evidence. Grunts don't tell anything specific about a particular strength level at all. Grunts as they pertain to comic characters are purely for show as there are many instances of heroes/villians "grunting" under the strain of something that shouldn't even phase them given their higher end feats.

Why do you need to show something? Frankly you don't; but just because you are convinced and satisfied doesn't mean I have to be. I respect the Wolverine character, and give it the credit that it deserves of these forums, but that is where the 'hero worship' ends with me.

@super_soldierxii:

I actually some how missed your scan until just now, but after reading it, it still says nothing about Wolverine's ligaments and tendons being unbreakable, or them being laced with adamantium (-beta) at all.

To get technical, ligaments and tendons are not a part of the skeletal system, they are a part of the mucular system, and as such help to support the skeletal system. The scan you provided, which outlines adamantium-beta quite well, really just states that Wolverine's bones are laced with a different type of adamantium, not pure adamantium; a sort of alloy created uniquely by his mutation when he was experimented on in the WX project called adamatium-beta. Still his bones are classified as indestructable, but yeah, that is all it says.

Moving on to your analogies, Superman's flight is a defined and explained power; Spiderman's spider-sense is a defined and explained power; Storm's abilities are a defined and explained power, and so one and so forth. Logan's ligaments and tendons being indestuctible is not defined and explained power as in the case of the others named (as far as I have seen). As such, the fact that his ligaments have yet to be broken can be said to be PIS/CIS...unless you want to attribute his seeming ability to not be broken more to his HF (his defined and explained power) rather than his adamantium bone structure.

Just going off the cuff now, since Logan's ligaments and tendons are not (or at least have yet to be proven to be) adamatium, and as such he should be able break apart under enough strain, a case can be made that the reason he doesn't "come apart" could be because of his HF and how fast it is able to regrow and regen tissue. As fast as his ligaments, muscles, and tendons degrade under the stress and strain of battle, they regrow at an extreme rate and enable him to not be broken even under extreme circumstances.

Something like that would make WAY more sense to me at least, but hey, what do I know; that's just off the cuff speculation.

Regardless, concrete evidence has yet to be provided as of yet.

About BFR, all Scorpion need is contact or for Wolverine to go through a portal of his creation on his own (being knocked in or just falling in himself). In one of Scorpion's fatalities he creates a portal behind his opponent and kicks them through it. Taking that into account, if Wolverine lunges at Scorpion (which Logan has a history of doing in combat), Scorpion can make a portal behind himself and just take Logan where ever he pleases (similar to what he did to Johnny cage in the first MK movie). Point is, whether he gets contact because he grabs Wolverine, or because Wolverine stabs him, it makes no difference. If Scorpion wants to teleport then he teleports.

And just to reiterate, Scorpion can't die. While Wolverine is funtionally immortal, Scorpion is immortal, so truly if we were going by win condition death, this would be the definition of stalemate.

#103 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

I actually some how missed your scan until just now, but after reading it, it still says nothing about Wolverine's ligaments and tendons being unbreakable, or them being laced with adamantium (-beta) at all.

So, basically you just admitted that you unabashedly denounced something you never even really read in the first place. Good for you. And great way to lose all credibility in an argument.

And yes, it does state everything about Wolverine's ligaments. It makes direct reference, stating, and I quote "capable of bonding directly into the structure of skeletal material" of which ligaments are an integral and highly important part - ligaments are part and parcel to "skeletal material". (To spell things out for you.) Every text you'll look at, will tell you that ligaments are indeed "skeletal components". Bones and ligaments are an essential part of the human framework ... integrated into a mechanism known as the "skeleton". Bones, together with ligaments, act as connective tissue and both are made of collagen lending flexibility to both bone and ligament. The calcium phosphate in bone make it harder than ligament ... but it is no more logical to assume metal can be bonded to bone without hindering the biological device known as the human skeleton, than it is ligament. Which is your basic, and false, assumption.

To get technical, ligaments and tendons are not a part of the skeletal system,

But they are an intrinsic part of the "structure of skeletal material" ... no biologist would deny this. And that is what is of import. That's fact. So your whole premise is based off a false interpretation. Not surprising, considering you didn't even deign it necessary to read the scan before denouncing it, why assume you'd read it accurately? That, and you've falsely interpreted just about everything thus far.

Speaking of false interpretations;

Logan's ligaments and tendons being indestuctible is not defined and explained power as in the case of the others named (as far as I have seen).

Et voila. Problem is, you don't appear capable of justly seeing much of anything at all with regards this topic. Even when presented scans, you pretend you're seeing something else. But yeah, again, false.

unless you want to attribute his seeming ability to not be broken more to his HF (his defined and explained power) rather than his adamantium bone structure.

Why would I want to do this, when it's clearly attributed to both?

Just going off the cuff now, since Logan's ligaments and tendons are not (or at least have yet to be proven to be) adamatium,

Don't care about tendons. But you're right, they are not adamantium, they are bonded at the molecular level to "beta" adamantium. Are you even paying attention?

and as such he should be able break apart under enough strain, a case can be made that the reason he doesn't "come apart" could be because of his HF and how fast it is able to regrow and regen tissue. As fast as his ligaments, muscles, and tendons degrade under the stress and strain of battle, they regrow at an extreme rate and enable him to not be broken even under extreme circumstances.

Now, were a writer to use your "off the cuff" theory ... we might more readily call that WIS pending the force of the explosion in question. A significant explosion represents a blast with such force, such immediate impact, that the only way Wolverine's body parts wouldn't go flying would be if his bones and ligaments were, in a word, indestructible to the point of withstanding the concussive force of said blast. I would definitely agree with the premise a healing factor to the extent Wolverine, Daken, X-23 and their ilk share one, might grant a certain modicum of superhuman durability ... but not that the healing factor holds their ligaments together faster than a blast can pull it apart.

As to BFR, I side with other posters insofar as such tactics are not an implicit part of Scorpions tactics. The likelihood of giving him a majority win based on such is, well, not very likely.

#104 Edited by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

Note: I never said ripping Wolverine apart would kill him, at best it would incapacitate him for some time.

Out of the several people who have tried no one has incapacitated wolverine this way.

Anyway, the reason Logan said that to Spidey was to egg Spidey on. Logan new he wouldn't do it which was why he said it.

Yes it was a taunt. Nothing more.

Grunts aren't evidence. Grunts don't tell anything specific about a particular strength level at all. Grunts as they pertain to comic characters are purely for show as there are many instances of heroes/villians "grunting" under the strain of something that shouldn't even phase them given their higher end feats.

Um no. Typically grunts are used to show someone is hurt or when a character is straining.

And this literally ignores the sentence Bhaal stated. I didn't want to spell it out for you because I really shouldn't have to but:

Here is the scan again so we all know what Bhaal stated.

One of the definitions of why:

for what? for what reason, cause, or purpose?: Why did you behave so badly?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Why?s=ts

So we know Bhaal was wondering for what reason he couldn't rip wolverine apart as he said "why"

The definition of can't is:

contraction of cannot.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Can%27t?s=t

So we know Bhaal couldn't do something because he said Can't.

The definition of I is when used as a pronoun:

the nominative singular pronoun, used by a speaker in referring to himself or herself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/I?s=t

Bhaal said "I" so we know he is referring to himself.

The definitions of rip are:

verb (used with object)

1.

to cut or tear apart in a rough or vigorous manner: to rip open a seam; to rip up a sheet.

2.

to cut or tear away in a rough or vigorous manner: to rip bark from a tree.


4.

to become torn apart or split open: Cheap cloth rips easily.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Rip?s=t

So we know Bhaal was ripping wolverine apart.

The definition of you:

the pronoun of the second person singular or plural, used of the person or persons being addressed, in the nominative or objective case: You are the highest bidder. It is you who are to blame. We can't help you. This package came for you. Did she give you the book?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/you?s=t

We know he was referring to wolverine as he is the only other person in the scan.

The definition of apart:

into pieces or parts; to pieces: to take a watch apart; an old barn falling apart from decay.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Apart?s=t

So we know Bhaal was trying to put wolverine to pieces.

So now that we have gone over what every word in that sentence means lets put those words into order:

Why (what reason) I (Bhaal in this context) can't (cannot) rip (as in separate from his sockets in this context) you (wolverine) apart (as in remove your arms from the rest of you body)

So the literal sentence means that Bhaal could not rip wolverine apart. He was straining as indicated by the grunting noise. So let me ask you, why should I assume Bhaal wasn't trying to rip wolverine apart when that what he said he was doing and he was straining while doing it?

Why do you need to show something? Frankly you don't; but just because you are convinced and satisfied doesn't mean I have to be. I respect the Wolverine character, and give him the credit that he deserves of these forums, but that is where the 'hero worship' ends with me.

I proved my point and showed you direct evidence. You didn't counter.

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#105 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Wow man.

1) I didn't bash anything since I didn't even see it. When I saw it, I read it; that is what I said. I guess for a couple of posts you were talking about one thing, and I was talking about another; the end. To say that I was for some reason pretending have read something and thus trying to hoodwink you or something is borderline insulting me. But whatever, I still respect you as debater and will continue to...let's see if we can keep it that way.

2) I misspoke. Ligaments and tendons are not solely a part of the muscular system, they are a part of the musculoskeletal system. Wolverine skeletal system is all that was affected by the adamantium injection process...period. The ligament can be bonded to the bone (no problem), and that bond can be indestructible (again, no problem), but that doesn't make the ligaments themselves indestructible. The question is are you paying attention to what I am saying.

If you somehow indestructibly weld a sheet of tin foil to 2 pieces of steel and and then pull the 2 steel pieces in different directions, will the tin foil rip at the indestructibly welded part? Or in the middle where it is just tin foil? Same concept with Wolverine's destructible ligaments and tendons. Since that hasn't been explained, only PIS makes sense.

3) Nothing is "false" with my assessment...you just don't like or agree with it. Fact is, Wolverine's HF and his adamantium skeletal system are 2 entirely separate things. Sure they might over lap at times as without one the other wouldn't have been possible, but regardless, at the end of the day they are 2 entirely separate things, totally independent of each other.

4) I'm glad to see my HF "story" resonates with you, and like I said, if something like that was in place I'd more readily accept that than nothing at all.

5) Scorpion as a character is a smart fighter who knows his strengths and his weaknesses. If he sees Wolverine as a threat then they are going to the Netherrealm where he is stronger and/or can just leave them there if need be. "Other posters" might say this or that, but the fact of the matter is Scorpion fights to win, and if BFR is a possibility he'll go for it.

Canonically he did it to Subzero (MK9), and he did it to Taven (MKA), non-canonically he's done it to Cage (in the movie), as well as other opponents in the other MK related media. His other canonical fights showed him fighting while empowered by outside forces, thus not having to go to the Netherrealm to "power up", or fighting against opponents where doing so would have just made things worse (Moloch and Drahmin in MK:DA/D). Given Scorpion's history, he is more likely to Wolverine to the Netherrealm than not.

P.S.: Scorpion didn't have to make contact with Taven in order to take him to the Netherrealm, he just was in proximity of him, and through willing it, they both went. Counting that showing Wolverine has no escape from Scorpion's BFRing capabilities. I'm actually being generous in not pushing that fact.

#106 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Lol. Whatever dude.

Superman moves planets yet he "grunts" to lift a pyramid.

Just because Bhaal "grunts" when tugging a Wolverine doesn't mean he put his back into it. Like I said before, he was surprised that Wolverine was a tough as he was and then Logan escaped him by kicking him in the face.

/End.

#107 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Scorpion, has more abilities Logan has no answers for such as BFR him into a Volcano...game over. Just reading this topic makes my head hurt seriously...but then it is a MK topic lol. Both are badasses though in their own way and not to be underestimated.

#108 Posted by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: Pre flashpoint superman has never moved a planet and everyone has low showings. That is a low showing for superman. He is clearly straining in that picture. And none of this actually disproves anything. Bhaal clearly stated he couldn't rip wolverine apart. I don't see where the confusion comes from.

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#109 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

That isn't a low showing for Superman, that is Superman being Superman. He's lifting a freaking pyramid! And those things are heavy (for you or I).

Regardless, I never said Superman struggled to do what he did in that scan, and never meant to imply such an idea. My only point is that grunts are nothing but flavor for a panel. Case in point, you proposed that I wouldn't grunt if I were to pick up a feather, but hey, the motion of picking up that feather from the ground may cause me to let out a sigh to catch my breath, or a "grunt" out of habit. You are putting to much stock in grunting sounds, they convey motion and personality and that is all.

#110 Posted by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

That isn't a low showing for Superman, that is Superman being Superman. He's lifting a freaking pyramid! And those things are heavy (for you or I).

To superman it should be nothing. But your scan actually shows he is straining with it.

Regardless, I never said Superman struggled to do what he did in that scan, and never meant to imply such an idea. My only point is that grunts are nothing but flavor for a panel. Case in point, you proposed that I wouldn't grunt if I were to pick up a feather, but hey, the motion of picking up that feather from the ground may cause me to let out a sigh to catch my breath, or a "grunt" out of habit. You are putting to much stock in grunting sounds, they convey motion and personality and that is all.

I know what you were trying to prove but the scan doesn't prove your point at all. Look at superman in that scan. His veins are literally popping out of his neck and face. That is further evidence superman is straining in your scan. Unless you can prove superman lifted it like it was nothing his actions clearly suggest he is straining. I don't think lifting a pyramid is a difficult task for superman but that is what your scan shows.

My last post had barely anything to do with grunting anyways. You said it wasn't stated on panel that Bhaal wasn't going full out to rip wolverines arms out when he is wondering why he cannot rip his arms out. He literally states "why can't I rip you apart?" No offense but I could only assume you didn't understand the sentence which forced me to define each and every word in that sentence.

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#111 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

My literary skills work just fine, which is why I laughed and didn't respond to your insulting break down of the sentence.

You talk about viens and such in the Superman scan, but there are plenty of other examples besides this one which points more to it being a figurative narative, than a literal display. Too bad there were no vien to speak of in the case of the Bhaal scan, just some literary and figurative commentary that can be taken in a multiude of ways.

#112 Posted by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

My literary skills work just fine, which is why I laughed and didn't respond to your insulting break down of the sentence.

The intention wasn't to insult you but I honestly didn't think you understood the sentence. If you did you wouldn't be saying there was no indicator that Bhaal was pulling as hard as he could when he literally says he is unable to separate wolverines arms.

You talk about viens and such in the Superman scan, but there are plenty of other examples besides this one which points more to it being a figurative narative, than a literal display. Too bad there were no vien to speak of in the case of the Bhaal scan, just some literary and figurative commentary that can be taken in a multiude of ways.

Unless there is contradicting evidence it is a literal display. I don't see why there has to be veins when there are multiple other indicator in the Bhaal scan that he was putting effort into it. And how can the sentence be taken multiple ways? Explain to me what else that sentence could possibly mean. And there are veins in the hulk scan if you really do need veins for it to be legit.

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#113 Edited by laflux (15980 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see the right things are being said, so I don't have to get my proverbial hands dirty :P

#114 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence; we don't know either way what the deal is regarding this topic, regardless if there is no contradicting evidence because this issure has never been explained or addressed directly in a comic or otherwise (as far as I know).

Explain to you what else that phrase could mean? Well just as you did with the Superman scan, taking into account the picture's representation as well as the word bubble, the same can be done with the Bhaal scan. What we don't see in that scan is Bhaal, with Logan on the ground under his foot, putting his all into ripping Logan apart and failing, then saying "why can't I rip you apart." All we see is him standing there, surprised and perplexed, as to why he can't pull this apparent 'human' apart. So, what does that mean?

Bhaal didn't (or at least apparently didn't) know who or what he was dealing with in Logan, so to say he was going all out in order to pull apart Logan specifically would be reaching. From my perspective he thought he was attempting to rip apart a normal human, to which I would say that Logan is anything but.

Question, how many times have you tried to lift or pull something only to realize you underestimated the strength needed to perform the task at hand? Then afterward, moments later, put you mind to it, braced, and performed the task with relative ease just because you were better prepped and ready? That is how I'm looking at this scan.

#115 Posted by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence; we don't know either way what the deal is regarding this topic, regardless if there is no contradicting evidence because this issure has never been explained or addressed directly in a comic (as far as I know).

You can't make a case on not having evidence. So far evidence tells us wolverine can't be ripped apart and there is nothing to say otherwise. So the logical assumption is to assume he can't be ripped apart.

Explain to you what else that phrase could mean? Well just as you did with the Superman scan, taking into account the picture's representation as well as the word bubble, the same can be done with the Bhaal scan. What we don't see in that scan is Bhaal, with Logan on the ground under his foot, putting his all into ripping Logan apart and failing, then saying "why can't I rip you apart." All we see is him standing there, surprised and perplexed, as to why he can't pull this apparent 'human' apart. So, what does that mean?

I was referring to the sentence. It is clearly stated that he couldn't rip wolverines arms off. There is literally nothing more to the scan. Why would Bhaal hold back? Do you have any evidence to say he wasn't using all his strength? He used all his arm strength to rip wolverine apart and he couldn't do it. The dialogue indicates he is straining due to the grunting noise.

Wolverine also states the reason Bhaal can't rip him apart is due to adamantium.....Which means wolverine literally stated on panel that adamantium prevents people from ripping him apart.

Bhaal didn't (or at least apparently didn't) know who or what he was dealing with in Logan, so to say he was going all out in order to pull Logan specifically would be reaching. From my perspective he thought he was attempting to rip apart a normal human, to which I would say that Logan is anything but.

Why would Bhaal hold back to rip someones arms off? I want to see an actual reason why Bhaal (someone who is willing to tare arms apart) would hold back on a normal person. What does that have to do with anything. And even then there is the hulk example. Hulk does know who wolverine is.

Question, how many times have you tried to lift or pull something only to realize you underestimated the strength needed to perform the task at hand? Then afterward, moments later, put you mind to it, braced, and performed the task with relative ease just because you were better prepped and ready? That is how I'm looking at this scan.

Why would Bhaal bother to not use all his strength? He wanted to kill wolverine. He has no reason to not put all his effort into it. Same deal with the hulk.

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#116 Edited by nick_hero22 (6871 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if Wolverine's skeleton wasn't composed of Beta-Adamantium Scorpion would still lose pretty badly since he holds no significant advantages in this fight. Inferior combatants have already been able to best Scorpion quite easily, so I'm not understanding why someone who has superior physical stats and combat showings wouldn't be able to replicate this feat.

#117 Edited by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: I feel the need to clarify something that might be causing confusion but Ba'al (I just realized we have been spelling Ba'al name wrong the whole time) didn't let go of Logan when wolverine kicked him. He started using a different method of attack because ripping wolverine wasn't working.

Also I just reread the debate and realized I was speaking to you in a rather rude way, and I do apologize for that.

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#119 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

  • Contrary to your argument about there being no evidence that Wolverine can be ripped apart, the evidence lays in the fact that Logan is 'human' and there has never been any evidence to suggest that the ligaments that connect his indestructible bones are anything more than human (that I know of). That is where this is all coming from.

  • PIS/WIS. The phrase "adamantium bones" says nothing in regards to his ligaments which is why I am skeptical.

  • You're guess is as good as mine to whether or not Ba'al goes around flaunting his strength at 100% all the time. Hold back? I didn't say he held back, I alluded to putting in a measured amount of effort but underestimating the true amount of power needed.

Just to close, it's in my nature to question and explore possibilities, so correct me if I'm wrong on this next part, but do we even know if Ba'al really even wanted to "kill" wolverine in that encounter? Was it his goal, his intent, to put Logan down, or did he have another agenda as it pertains to that fight.

Doing a little research, now that the spelling error has been cleared up (I have been searching for a while), it would seem that Ba'al was after specific artifact for some reason when he encountered Logan at the time of that scan, as Logan was attempting to stop him from getting to his objective. Ba'al won the fight (their first encounter) but didn't kill Logan; maybe he couldn't, may he didn't care to, but later on they fought again where it would seem major case of PIS took over and Logan won.

There is no question of Ba'al's abilities and powers, but was his intent at the time to kill or to just brush Logan aside (to which he was surprised at Logan's resolve and durability) and move on to his real objective.

P.S.: We are cool, I have no issue with you. This is all in good fun.

#120 Posted by pea55 (291 posts) - - Show Bio

James Howlett

#122 Posted by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine wins.

#123 Posted by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

Contrary to your argument about there being no evidence that Wolverine can be ripped apart, the evidence lays in the fact that Logan is 'human' and there has never been any evidence to suggest that the ligaments that connect his indestructible bones are anything more than human (that I know of). That is where this is all coming from.

Wolverine isn't human, he is a mutant. A mutant a top secret government organization has spent tons of money re-altering. There doesn't really need to be mention as long as there are consistent showings to show something and no evidence against something.

Also it has been stated that adamantium is bonded to his skeletal system. Ligaments and tendons are apart of the skeletal system.

PIS/WIS. The phrase "adamantium bones" says nothing in regards to his ligaments which is why I am skeptical.

PIS/WIS is only when something isn't consistent. If it is consistent it isn't PIS/WIS.

You're guess is as good as mine to whether or not Ba'al goes around flaunting his strength at 100% all the time. Hold back? I didn't say he held back, I alluded to putting in a measured amount of effort but underestimating the true amount of power needed.

This is the thing I am not understanding. Why wouldn't Baal put all his effort into it? He didn't have anything to lose by not pulling as hard as he could. And after wolverine kicked him he stopped pulling and started burning him. If he wasn't using anywhere near his full strength why wouldn't he simply just use all his effort as opposed to switching tactics? He was still holding onto wolverines arms

Just to close, it's in my nature to question and explore possibilities, so correct me if I'm wrong on this next part, but do we even know if Ba'al really even wanted to "kill" wolverine in that encounter? Was it his goal, his intent, to put Logan down, or did he have another agenda as it pertains to that fight.

Pretty sure he didn't need wolverine. He just tossed him aside and left.

Doing a little research, now that the spelling error has been cleared up (I have been searching for a while), it would seem that Ba'al was after specific artifact for some reason when he encountered Logan at the time of that scan, as Logan was attempting to stop him from getting to his objective. Ba'al won the fight (their first encounter) but didn't kill Logan; maybe he couldn't, may he didn't care to, but later on they fought again where it would seem major case of PIS took over and Logan won.

There is no question of Ba'al's abilities and powers, but was his intent at the time to kill or to just brush Logan aside (to which he was surprised at Logan's resolve and durability) and move on to his real objective.

I don't believe Ba'al actually cared what happened to wolverine. He just wanted wolverine out of his way. I believe whether he was dead or alive wasn't a concern.

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#124 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Logan is a mutant; mutants are human; Logan is human. In Marvel mutants are classified as humans just with an extra genome, a subspeicies. Though some mutants extened beyond "normal" human parameters (super powers), they are still none the less human. Regardless, that isn't the point of the question I'm posing, the question is whether or not Ba'al thought Logan was a human or not, and whether or not he knew that Logan specifically was more durable than your run of the mill human.

I'll restate to you what I've already stated in the thread, ligaments are a part of the musculoskeletal system which supports the skeletal system proper. Logan's bones were augmented, his skeletal system, that was it.

PIS has to do with plot, no consistency persay. Since Logan's power, his HF, doesn't do anything to augment his durability directly as it just affects his body's regeneration, and since the adamantium process only affected his bones, not the tissue which supports those bones, how come some tissue in his body can be damaged and not others?

Then I'd ask what did he have to gain by putting all he had in to it? Are you postulating that it would have/should have taken all his strength to pull a normal human apart?

Exactly. If he didn't care, then what reason was there to go all out?

#125 Posted by nick_hero22 (6871 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

If it has a different sum total of genes in genome then it isn't Homo Sapien!

#126 Posted by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

Logan is a mutant; mutants are human; Logan is human. In Marvel mutants are classified as humans just with an extra genome, a subspeicies. Though some mutants extened beyond "normal" human parameters (super powers), they are still none the less human. Regardless, that isn't the point of the question I'm posing, the question is whether or not Ba'al thought Logan was a human or not, and whether or not he knew that Logan specifically was more durable than your run of the mill human.

It doesn't matter what Ba'al thought. He was clearly trying to rip his arms off. He has no reason to hold back regardless if he is fighting a human being or not. Nothing indicates he wasn't using his full strength.

I'll restate to you what I've already stated in the thread, ligaments are a part of the musculoskeletal system which supports the skeletal system proper. Logan's bones were augmented, his skeletal system, that was it.

The muscloskeletal system is divided into sections one being the muscular system the other being the skeletal system. Bones are apart of the Muscloskeletal system:

Our musculoskeletal system is made up of muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, cartilage, joints and bursae.

http://healthpages.org/anatomy-function/musculoskeletal-system-bones-joints-cartilage-ligaments/

All of the bones, cartilage, muscles, joints, tendons and ligaments in a person's body compose what is known as the musculoskeletal system.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-musculoskeletal-system.htm

The musculoskeletal system incorporates bones, muscles, and connective tissue (your ligaments, tendons, and fascia).

http://www.drfranklipman.com/an-overview-of-your-musculoskeletal-system/

musculoskeletal system

Web definitions

the system of muscles and tendons and ligaments and bones and joints and associated tissues that move the body and maintain its form.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Musculoskeletal+system+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Point being both your bones and muscles are also apart of the musculoskeletal system.

Ligaments and tendons are apart of the skeletal half:

http://library.thinkquest.org/10348/find/content/skeletal.html

http://hes.ucfsd.org/gclaypo/skelweb/skel01.html

http://biology.about.com/od/organsystems/ss/skeletal-system.htm

http://doctors-hospitals-medical-cape-town-south-africa.blaauwberg.net/details.php?id=821

Even dictionary.com defines the connective tissue as part of the skeletal system:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skeletal+system

PIS has to do with plot, no consistency persay. Since Logan's power, his HF, doesn't do anything to augment his durability directly as it just affects his body's regeneration, and since the adamantium process only affected his bones, not the tissue which supports those bones,how come some tissue in his body can be damaged and not others?

I don't know. I guess the tissue that gets damaged isn't apart of the skeletal system.

Then I'd ask what did he have to gain by putting all he had in to it? Are you postulating that it would have/should have taken all his strength to pull a normal human apart?

If he ripped out wolverines arms wolverine would have been incapacitated and out of his way. I am saying why would he switch tactics when all he had to do was pull harder to achieve the task in question. Why bother trying to burn wolverine when all he had to do was pull harder.

Exactly. If he didn't care, then what reason was there to go all out?

So wolverine would be out of the way. To show the people watching to not interfere with his plan.

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#127 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: We can go back and forth for ever.

It does matter what Ba'al thought. Intent is very important as it colors reason and purpose.

I applaude your research, but it really isn't necessary to post all the links. The musculoskeletal system, as you obviously agree, is the combined system of the muscles and the bones, but the ligaments, which are a part of soley it, are not exclusive to 1 (the bones) system or the other (the muscles). Ligaments are the bridges between the 2 codependent system, but...

Only Logan's BONES, his skeletal system, were augmented, NOT his muscular system, and NOT his musculoskeletal system.

Because Wolverine kicked him in the face and he changed his mind. We can't hope to understand why Ba'al did what he did, all we can to is try to make sense of it in hindsight. The scan makes it look like Ba'al changed his mind/tactics in order just to hurt Logan like Logan "hurt" him. As we've already discussed, his intent wasn't to kill him, just incapacitate him/cause him pain. Electicution seems easy enough.

#128 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

You said;

The scans provided so far, the same scans put in every Wolverine debate when this comes up mind you, don't answer the question in a clear enough fashion IMO to put the topic to rest. I can and will error on the side of it being possible until it is proven without a doubt that it isn't.

After us having provided the scan in question, and debating it for a while. Then, after you refuting said debated points (quote above), you turn around and state you never even read said scan after all. So it's not hard to imagine the message received and why I commented as I did. If it happens you weren't even referring to said scan at all, or including it in your comment, while I find that weird, I can and will give you the benefit of the doubt and retract my initial comments.

As to the rest of this discussion, the scan CLEARLY talks about SKELETAL MATERIALS ... which in every physiologists books includes LIGAMENTS. It does not only mention his bones, or his skeleton ... skeletal materials bud. Had he wanted to say "skeleton" or even better, just "bones" and leave it at that, pretty sure the writer would have. You want to interpret skeletal materials to EXCLUDE ligaments, then that's your false and entirely self-serving interpretation.

Regardless, complete your little Google research project, because when you do it half arsed, you don't come off as the sharpest knife in the drawer. You'll learn that while ligaments are indeed part of the musculoskeletal system ... SO ARE BONES!!! They are two parts of the SAME SYSTEM. You have NO ARGUMENT bud. Heck, ligaments connect two bones and share same materials as bones (collagen) - how are they not both to be considered "skeletal materials" again? Especially now tha you've learned they are both considered as part of the same system. Please, tell me how you rationalize excluding them from "skeletal materials" ...

If nothing else, it should be good for a chuckle. I'm starting to think you'd argue the grass wasn't green than actually acquiesce to an argument that's proven yours false.

Believe what you want. I personally don't care. But I will continue to denounce, with concrete proof (read: scans and an accurate interpretation of said scans, based on what is actually said, and not on what YOU want them to say), everything you write that spreads false information on this topic. And this simply because I can.

#129 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

Only Logan's BONES, his skeletal system, were augmented, NOT his muscular system, and NOT his musculoskeletal system.

Ah ... OK. Forget your explanation as I see you've attempted one with jashro44.

You're wrong of course.

YOU are the one stating ONLY LOGAN's BONES. Only YOU are limiting what was said to the word BONES. The scan we provided clearly states SKELETAL MATERIALS. Ligaments are part of what comprises "skeletal materials".

"This wholly new metal has different properties and is capable of bonding directly into the STRUCTURE OF SKELETAL MATERIAL". It does not limit it to just bone.

Your interpretation is incomplete.

#130 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio
#131 Posted by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

We can go back and forth for ever.

I've been in longer debates.

It does matter what Ba'al thought. Intent is very important as it colors reason and purpose.

The intent was to get Logan out of the way through any means....This would require actually damaging wolverine.

I applaude your research, but it really isn't necessary to post all the links. The musculoskeletal system, as you obviously agree, is the combined system of the muscles and the bones, but the ligaments, which are a part of soley it, are not exclusive to 1 (the bones) system or the other (the muscles). Ligaments are the bridges between the 2 codependent system, but...

I posted 5 different links which actually confirm ligaments are apart of the skeletal system....

Here is a chart of the skeletal system I took of the wall of my school:

The full chart if you want to take a look....
You see joints and ligaments mentioned on the chart.

ligaments are specifically mentioned in the skeletal system. As are joints.

Here are the links again which confirm that ligaments are apart of the skeletal system.

http://library.thinkquest.org/10348/find/content/skeletal.html

http://hes.ucfsd.org/gclaypo/skelweb/skel01.html

http://biology.about.com/od/organsystems/ss/skeletal-system.htm

http://doctors-hospitals-medical-cape-town-south-africa.blaauwberg.net/details.php?id=821

Even dictionary.com defines the connective tissue as part of the skeletal system:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skeletal+system

Only Logan's BONES, his skeletal system, were augmented, NOT his muscular system, and NOT his musculoskeletal system.

The musculoskeletal system consists of the skeletal system. By this logic bones aren't apart of the skeletal system since they are apart of the msculoskeletal system.

Because Wolverine kicked him in the face and he changed his mind.

How would kicking his face make him change his mind?

We can't hope to understand why Ba'al did what he did, all we can to is try to make sense of it in hindsight.

And the logical conclusion is he was pulling as hard as he could.

The scan makes it look like Ba'al changed his mind/tactics in order just to hurt Logan like Logan "hurt" him.

Exactly! Because what he was doing wasn't working!

As we've already discussed, his intent wasn't to kill him, just incapacitate him/cause him pain. Electicution seems easy enough.

No his intent was to get wolverine out of the way through any means. Including killing, hospitalizing, etc.

@super_soldierxii: Sorry man...

From encyclopedia.com: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O13-skeletalmaterial.html

"skeletal material In most vertebrates the skeleton is made from bone..."

Skeletal materials are, and have been for a long time, defined exclusively as bone. Ligaments are not bone.

Your link is talking about skseletal material (basically the material the skeleton is made of), not the skeletal system. Ligaments aren't bones but they are still apart of the skeletal system as there a huge part of what forms are skeleton. That's what we have been trying to tell you.

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#132 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Honestly, I think this is a question of semantics. I take the writer talking about skeletal materials to include the whole skeletal system. To me, it's obvious. Onilordasmodeus takes it to mean only bone. Of course if you type in Google 'skeletal material' it will refer you to bone. However, given the context, it's clear to me the writer was referring to Logan's skeletal structure, including all "skeletal material" in its plural and not just singular definitive sense.

Oni comes to the conclusion that Logan's entire infrastructure being 'unbreakable' is far from conclusive, it's only the "bone" due to what I still hold a false interpretation. Even Wolverine's consistent showings would have this ring as "false".

Here's what Logan's skeleton looks like when all "non-adamantium" parts completely burned away;

Notice his skeleton remains completely intact. There's another, earlier instance, in Days of Future Past, where Logan is reduced to his skeleton by a Sentinel and it remains perfectly intact, and yet another where he was reduced to a skeleton by Horde (or Sym?) and it too remained one cohesive unit.

#133 Edited by jashro44 (21853 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Well the scan says the structure of the skeletal material. So that would pretty much be the arrangements of the skeleton. When I type into google "the skeletal structure" it leads me to pages with the skeletal system. Structure is really just another word for system.

EDIT: Never mind I just messed up the definition of material. Still I think there is enough proof in this thread to show ligaments are part of the skeletal system.

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#134 Posted by cursedbean (43 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Honestly, I think this is a question of semantics. I take the writer talking about skeletal materials to include the whole skeletal system. To me, it's obvious. Onilordasmodeus takes it to mean only bone. Of course if you type in Google 'skeletal material' it will refer you to bone. However, given the context, it's clear to me the writer was referring to Logan's skeletal structure, including all "skeletal material" in its plural and not just singular definitive sense.

Oni comes to the conclusion that Logan's entire infrastructure being 'unbreakable' is far from conclusive, it's only the "bone" due to what I still hold a false interpretation. Even Wolverine's consistent showings would have this ring as "false".

Here's what Logan's skeleton looks like when all "non-adamantium" parts completely burned away;

Notice his skeleton remains completely intact. There's another, earlier instance, in Days of Future Past, where Logan is reduced to his skeleton by a Sentinel and it remains perfectly intact, and yet another where he was reduced to a skeleton by Horde (or Sym?) and it too remained one cohesive unit.

thats impossible without brain,muscles he cant move even his finger tips

#135 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44:

Honestly, I think this is a question of semantics. I take the writer talking about skeletal materials to include the whole skeletal system. To me, it's obvious. Onilordasmodeus takes it to mean only bone. Of course if you type in Google 'skeletal material' it will refer you to bone. However, given the context, it's clear to me the writer was referring to Logan's skeletal structure, including all "skeletal material" in its plural and not just singular definitive sense.

Oni comes to the conclusion that Logan's entire infrastructure being 'unbreakable' is far from conclusive, it's only the "bone" due to what I still hold a false interpretation. Even Wolverine's consistent showings would have this ring as "false".

Here's what Logan's skeleton looks like when all "non-adamantium" parts completely burned away;

Notice his skeleton remains completely intact. There's another, earlier instance, in Days of Future Past, where Logan is reduced to his skeleton by a Sentinel and it remains perfectly intact, and yet another where he was reduced to a skeleton by Horde (or Sym?) and it too remained one cohesive unit.

thats impossible without brain,muscles he cant move even his finger tips

In that pic, Wolverine was reduced to his adamantium frame by Nitro. He was not mobile or functional. By all intents and purposes, he was flash fried and dead. The thing with Wolverine, is his healing factor was retrofitted at the time - he couldn't die. If there's any organic matter, any cell or molecule remaining ... he can "grow back". And that's what he did.

The scan was used to show that Marvel does indeed intend, (through showings and consistent visual representation of Wolverine's skeleton over the years) Logan's skeletal structure / system / framework / materials (whatever wording one chooses to employ) as being bonded with "beta" adamantium on a molecular level in its entirety making him "unbreakable".

That is all.

#136 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii:

From reading your last few posts you seem to follow where I am coming from now.

About your Nitro scan, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the pic you posted a comic cover and not a direct panel of the events that took place? Logan was hit with the blast and was knocked down flat was he not? He was never in a sitting/kneeling position prior, during, or after that blast, and further more, wasn't he watching Nitro the whole time he was "flash fried and dead" as his eyes were still in his head post the event?

Anyway, I don't think a skeleton not falling apart would mean much of anything in the first place other than to say "he isn't dead yet," or some other comic booky way of conveying something ( or laziness). I can post links to Scorpion fatalities where he burns a body to it's bones and the skeletal frame stays in tact as it falls, or post links to any number of other examples in various media where a skeleton is still seemingly held together by nothing after death. While the way things are drawn/animated is very important in comics and other media, it doesn't superceed what is said and the lore of which it is based on.

The best that can be said about Logan is that he hasn't been torn apart in the 616 universe, not that he can't be. Logan's Ligaments and other non-bone tissues are not adamantium laced, and have never been said to be (as far as I know), thus he could be torn apart.

#137 Edited by hyperbeing (382 posts) - - Show Bio

i believe scorpion has the advantage mainly due to the fact he can control a fire that not only burns the body but the soul.fighting skills i believe scorpion has the advantage also if he gets the chance he can teleport wolverine to the netherrealm and if i remember right then netherrealm drains ones life force among other things.

#138 Posted by OrphanCrippler (209 posts) - - Show Bio

No one will get killed, but Scorpion will get the upper hand, by porting Wolverine to Netherrealm. Then he'll have to figure something out, probably throw him into Lava, where his flesh will melt away quicker than his healing factor can afford

#139 Posted by MonsterStomp (18040 posts) - - Show Bio

To death? Both are incapable of being killed.

Stalemate.

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#140 Edited by hyperbeing (382 posts) - - Show Bio

scorpions flame can burn someone soul there life force even if wolverines body heals he will die if his soul is burned away

and the just being in the netherrealm would eventually kill wolverine as the realm drains beings of there life force