• 57 results
  • 1
  • 2
#1 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

Can the one who can manipulate reality to what ever he wills triumph over the one who stomped LT stomper Protege?

And here we go!

#2 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer.

#3 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Scathan .

#4 Edited by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

This is very interesting and going to turn into a heated debate.

We know Lucifer is up there , probably only second to Presence. One could make a case for Scanthan too, i mean he saved LT's a$$ and within marvel's multiverse/ megaverse LT is only second to TOAA in his multiverse (unless some uber powerful character show for one or two series up like Protege, PR Beyonder etc)

Heck i could go all fanboy and go, Protege said = he has the power TOAA, Scanthan ruled against him :p so yeah lol

I am gonna say tie, COP OUT for me thanks =)

#5 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the Tribunal's overrated. That said, Scathan is one tough customer.

I'll say tie as well.

#6 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

Protege, Scathan, and that entire arc should be erased from history.

That said, the answer is Lucifer.

#7 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack said:

Can the one who can manipulate reality to what ever he wills triumph over the one who stomped LT stomper Protege?

And here we go!

Didnt Scathan just allow LT to kill Protege? I thought Scathan's input was quite negligible actually. I heard someone say that Scathan removed his power but I feel their was more to that than what was stated.

@Killemall: Dont forget Tiamut. Tiamut is actually tied with TOAA because of the Fulcrum/Kirby

#8 Posted by icysloth (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer, hard fought but lucifer would be the one standing at the end.

#9 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@icysloth said:

Lucifer, hard fought but lucifer would be the one standing at the end.

Cant see how. If Someone can bump down someone with the powers of TOAA then that's a pretty high accomplishment.

#10 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212 said:

@Killemall: Dont forget Tiamut. Tiamut is actually tied with TOAA because of the Fulcrum/Kirby

I actually never really understood why people interpret the scans that way, Tiamut was said to be Fulcrum's equal because before that point he , like any other celestial was mere following orders, only after that point he gained free will. Thats how i understood, because a celestial gets more powerful once he absorbed or is given more cosmic energies, i dont see where he would get extra cosmic energy in the bar.

Look at the scans once, and please do let me know if i am mis-interpreting anything:

firstly there is no indication that fulcrum even gave him extra powers or that he got extra powers from anywhere.

Even to quote fulcrum's own words (last scan) "......................You are the only being to question me, to become an individual. You are no longer my device (because he grew conciousness , because he cared, and because for some reason in recent x-men he got retconned =( into a robot again). In shattering that bond, you have proven a power equal to my own."

And then he asks him out on a date (yeah no he said will you come with me, thats totally asking him out for a date :p )

#11 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212 said:

@icysloth said:

Lucifer, hard fought but lucifer would be the one standing at the end.

Cant see how. If Someone can bump down someone with the powers of TOAA then that's a pretty high accomplishment.

Protege is a hyperbole machine.

#12 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy said:

Protege is a hyperbole machine.

*pfft* you are a hyperbole machine

#13 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@daak1212 said:

@Killemall: Dont forget Tiamut. Tiamut is actually tied with TOAA because of the Fulcrum/Kirby

I actually never really understood why people interpret the scans that way, Tiamut was said to be Fulcrum's equal because before that point he , like any other celestial was mere following orders, only after that point he gained free will. Thats how i understood, because a celestial gets more powerful once he absorbed or is given more cosmic energies, i dont see where he would get extra cosmic energy in the bar.

Look at the scans once, and please do let me know if i am mis-interpreting anything:

firstly there is no indication that fulcrum even gave him extra powers or that he got extra powers from anywhere.

Even to quote fulcrum's own words (last scan) "......................You are the only being to question me, to become an individual. You are no longer my device (because he grew conciousness , because he cared, and because for some reason in recent x-men he got retconned =( into a robot again). In shattering that bond, you have proven a power equal to my own."

And then he asks him out on a date (yeah no he said will you come with me, thats totally asking him out for a date :p )

I see as the ripping of the helmet is ascension for him but let's not forget, the bar is in it's self a nexus point for living and dead Celestials and when a celestial dies, it takes energy to come back (as in Exitar's situation) so maybe the bar just gives off energy. Also let's not forget before he came back from the dream state, it took an entire host including Ashriem to put him down and they themselves needed an ambush. Also he fought the Horde by himself and won and the Horde has been stated to equal to the Celestials in every way, and he took the entire horde on and won. I think with all of that and the fact he reached conscious ascension (which might have given him extra power or just better realization of his powers) I think he's equal in power to Kirby.

I dont think he was ret-conned perse, Marvel doesnt actually have a creator cannon anymore, meaning that all characters are up for change no matter what state they were once in unless given other notice such as Whiplash who died ten years ago and was in Secret Avengers 29. X-men have some weird established Canon with Celestial in that no matter what comic cannon might have did to Celestials, it doesnt matter when it comes to the X-verse.

I hope this made sense

#14 Posted by icysloth (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212: What scanathon did is weaken protege enough for the living tribuneral to absorb him he didn't single handedly defeat him, And Protege claiming to be the new one above all is some of the bad writing that got this series canceled. Lucifer takes this

#15 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@icysloth said:

@daak1212: What scanathon did is weaken protege enough for the living tribuneral to absorb him he didn't single handedly defeat him, And Protege claiming to be the new one above all is some of the bad writing that got this series canceled. Lucifer takes this

Oh yeah I also say that the Protege character is garbage and the entire comic was shit but still Scathan weakend an omnipotent being.

#16 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212 said:

Didnt Scathan just allow LT to kill Protege? I thought Scathan's input was quite negligible actually. I heard someone say that Scathan removed his power but I feel their was more to that than what was stated.

Nah man, here's LT's bio that says in was Scanthan that saved the day

Also it was Scanthan who encased protege in the energy thingy

Also look at the last scan,LT tells Scathan to lift the Celestial muzzle , and Scathan PHYSICALLY restrains Protege(he still possessed the power of all beings he had duplicated at this juncture)

Thats pretty damn impressive :)

#17 Posted by icysloth (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212: hes a celestial you with only 1 feat and thats protege. You have to power him as a celestial who got lucky, because to my knowledge he has no defined powerset and until he has a defined powerset that is on par with lucifers I can't see him winning.

#18 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@icysloth said:

@daak1212: hes a celestial you with only 1 feat and thats protege. You have to power him as a celestial who got lucky, because to my knowledge he has no defined powerset and until he has a defined powerset that is on par with lucifers I can't see him winning.

Well he's a celestial so I guess mass energy manipulation and being as Scathan is a stronger version of Celestials we can assume that he has their power set except stronger. Not to mention he is much smarter

#19 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Baldy said:

Protege is a hyperbole machine.

*pfft* you are a hyperbole machine

Oh snap. I got told.

#20 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212 said:

I see as the ripping of the helmet is ascension for him but let's not forget, the bar is in it's self a nexus point for living and dead Celestials and when a celestial dies, it takes energy to come back (as in Exitar's situation) so maybe the bar just gives off energy. Also let's not forget before he came back from the dream state, it took an entire host including Ashriem to put him down and they themselves needed an ambush. Also he fought the Horde by himself and won and the Horde has been stated to equal to the Celestials in every way, and he took the entire horde on and won.

I think you mis-understand what i said, i dont see him poking his head out as being equal to Fulcrum, but he has always been more powerful than normal celestial, because he's a renegade and renegades are cool and more powerful in comics, thats just how it works :p .

The point was , this didnt actually increase his powers, he beat Ashriem before the power up, then got restrained by the other celestials and burined on the earth to dream, and hence the dreaming celestial.

That actually shows he is stronger than 1 celestial, not as strong as say 3 together.

I think with all of that and the fact he reached conscious ascension (which might have given him extra power or just better realization of his powers) I think he's equal in power to Kirby.

Well thats hard to buy given the fact that Kirby (the fulcrum) is supposed to be all powerful, just because he gained consciousness doesnt and shouldn't automatically make him that much more powerful. Also hate to nitpick, but apart from resurrecting Sersi and sparing the earth by calling off his hordes (who followed his own command) The Fulcrum himself is featless :p.

I dont think he was ret-conned perse, Marvel doesnt actually have a creator cannon anymore, meaning that all characters are up for change no matter what state they were once in unless given other notice such as Whiplash who died ten years ago and was in Secret Avengers 29. X-men have some weird established Canon with Celestial in that no matter what comic cannon might have did to Celestials, it doesnt matter when it comes to the X-verse.

I hope this made sense

Second part did lol.

#21 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@daak1212 said:

I see as the ripping of the helmet is ascension for him but let's not forget, the bar is in it's self a nexus point for living and dead Celestials and when a celestial dies, it takes energy to come back (as in Exitar's situation) so maybe the bar just gives off energy. Also let's not forget before he came back from the dream state, it took an entire host including Ashriem to put him down and they themselves needed an ambush. Also he fought the Horde by himself and won and the Horde has been stated to equal to the Celestials in every way, and he took the entire horde on and won.

I think you mis-understand what i said, i dont see him poking his head out as being equal to Fulcrum, but he has always been more powerful than normal celestial, because he's a renegade and renegades are cool and more powerful in comics, thats just how it works :p .

The point was , this didnt actually increase his powers, he beat Ashriem before the power up, then got restrained by the other celestials and burined on the earth to dream, and hence the dreaming celestial.

That actually shows he is stronger than 1 celestial, not as strong as say 3 together.

I think with all of that and the fact he reached conscious ascension (which might have given him extra power or just better realization of his powers) I think he's equal in power to Kirby.

Well thats hard to buy given the fact that Kirby (the fulcrum) is supposed to be all powerful, just because he gained consciousness doesnt and shouldn't automatically make him that much more powerful. Also hate to nitpick, but apart from resurrecting Sersi and sparing the earth by calling off his hordes (who followed his own command) The Fulcrum himself is featless :p.

I dont think he was ret-conned perse, Marvel doesnt actually have a creator cannon anymore, meaning that all characters are up for change no matter what state they were once in unless given other notice such as Whiplash who died ten years ago and was in Secret Avengers 29. X-men have some weird established Canon with Celestial in that no matter what comic cannon might have did to Celestials, it doesnt matter when it comes to the X-verse.

I hope this made sense

Second part did lol.

I got what you where saying but we can only infer that he got stronger that was my point.

Didnt he get stronger after his awakening? I remember he did, but still as we know Ashriem is stronger than a normal celestial (the strongest Celestials in no order are Ashriem, Exitar, Tiamut, Scathan, and OAA) and the fact that Tiamut beat Ashriem and then was taken down by the others in a coup means that Tiamut is not a slouch and that was before him getting stronger from his awakening. I still stand by that Tiamut becoming less of a robot and now a flaming human head Celestial shows that he ascended and became stronger by definition. If Kirby is said to be stronger then all of the Celestials, Horde, and Watchers combined and Tiamut was said to be his equal (but your point remains, does he mean strength or knowledge?) then Tiamut has became stronger. In a religious sense the term Ascension means that one entered heaven as a living being and only few did that and one was Jesus so I guess in a way, Tiamut has now become fully realized and is now the strongest Celestial of all time.

I dont mind your nitpicking but well when it comes to omnipotent beings and such, trying to find a comprehensible feat is quite hard. usually it's best to take it at face value being as their all omnipotent and stuff. I guess the only thing we can say is that Kirby is the God of the three races and if one celestial is equal to Franklin Richards or somewhere near it and Kirby is stronger than every single Celestial, Watcher, and the entirety of the Horde it's best to assume that he's friggin strong.

my point was that Celestials well at least namely Tiamut get treated differently in X-comics, and because I usually dont actually hold most Celestial showing in X comics as legitimate.

#22 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh I forgot to menion, Celestials become stronger with the more knowledge they gain.

#23 Posted by tensor (4484 posts) - - Show Bio

Morningstar

#24 Edited by icysloth (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212: Franklin richards has shown he can handle 3 celestials at once, but I agree it is hard to pin down powerlevels when they get to this level it becomes very wishywashy when the arguement is well I can alter all reality, and the other character is like well I can just alter all reality to a greater extent.

#25 Posted by Spartan101 (2355 posts) - - Show Bio

i think i did a thread with scathan and 9 other celestials to fight L/M and most viners called it a stomp in L/M favour?

#26 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@icysloth said:

@daak1212: Franklin richards has shown he can handle 3 celestials at once

Yes I know, but they also recognized him as there equal. I have the entirety of the Mad Space God arc as well.

#27 Posted by icysloth (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212: Its just my personal opinion morningsar could take multiple celestials on at once like Richards, he could probably take on scanthon with at least 2 other supporters, but I can't prove this because as I said earlier at the powerlevels we are talking about things become wishywashy and ridiculous, when fights are between 2 entities both capable of altering reality

#28 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

Is the living tribunal all that he's cracked up to be? I mean if a celestial outmatches him then he is not that powerful at all.

#29 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack: While I agree that the Tribunal is overrated, I count the Protege showing as a low end one for him.

#30 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia:

I mean in one story a bloodlusted LT failed to blast galactus out of existence and got beat by Richards. I mean WTH.

#31 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack: There's also the Dr. Strange incident people love to bring up to edify Strange. Then there's Korvac. Then there's The End...

#32 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia:

Dunno about the Dr. Strange and Korvac. What happened there?

#33 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack: He fought Strange a long time ago. Against Korvac, he sealed off the universe.

#34 Posted by Immortal777 (7624 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer Morningstar FTW

#35 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack said:

Bump.

Is the living tribunal all that he's cracked up to be? I mean if a celestial outmatches him then he is not that powerful at all.

No as these were terribly written comics back in the 70's. Remember in that time Classic Doctor Strange was viturally unstoppable as he himself clowned Tribunal

#36 Posted by SirMethos (1335 posts) - - Show Bio

Scathan is not at a level of power where he can even remotely compete with Lucifer Morningstar.

Lucifer stomps. Mismatch.

#37 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

Scathan.

#38 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

I think the Tribunal's overrated. That said, Scathan is one tough customer.

I'll say tie as well.

How is the Living Tribunal overrated dude?

#39 Posted by fondofpacman (572 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack: Yeah, in the Living Tribunal's first appearance (the Sands of Time story arc), LT had a little scuffle with Classic Strange who sort of surprised LT with his power; Strange a few issues later helped LT defeat this one guy Nebulos, so yeah, Dr.Strange fans (like me) will often bring up that story arc to show examples of the level Classic Strange was intended to be at.

There's not enough info on Scathan to usually make him a good candidate for a battle, unfortunately. I don't think that these Celestial comparisons people are making are worth much of anything, because even if Scathan was born a Celestial, he's clearly ascended to something incomparable to one when he deus ex machina'd Protege. Just by giving a thumbs down, he beat a guy who had Eternity, Beyonder, and the Hawk God (maybe LT but I don't think so) absolutely crapping their pants.

It's important to point out that Protoge wasn't necessarily stronger than LT at any point...he certainty thought he was, but you never see him harm LT or see LT look particularly concerned at any moment...maybe that was because Scathan was there to end it if things got out of control. We never know if Protege actually managed to fully copy LT's power (or if that's even possible to do), so we also can't say whether Scathan is above or close to LT in terms of power. There's just not enough info on him. All we know is that he's bad ass and most people on this site hate and are confused by that ending...which is admittedly pretty damn bizarre.

#40 Posted by Killemall (18598 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@heymanjack: There's also the Dr. Strange incident people love to bring up to edify Strange. Then there's Korvac. Then there's The End...

Dr. Strange, assuming you are talking about Sands of time, didnt even manage to hurt him i dont see how that counts, it was only that LT under-estimated him, he was a mortal he didnt expect him to be more powerful than an abstract.

Krovac? Are you still talking the same original Korvac Saga, because LT wasnt even mentioned in the Korvac Saga, and he got killed by a bunch of Avengers.

The End = not canon, and that was meant to be a direct powers from TOAA. Also Thanos didnt fight him or beat him, he just absorbed him using HOTU powers, the reason i brought this up was because Protege has claims to show himself as more powerful than LT, and the story ended with LT absorbing him.

You know what, in battle forum he is over-rated because LT is only all powerful inside Marvel Megaverse, but not because of these things you have mentioned man.

#41 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: Some people think he's more omnipotent than omnipotent.

He's the second best.

#42 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@jeanroygrant: Some people think he's more omnipotent than omnipotent.

He's the second best.

Lol

#43 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

bump.

#44 Posted by SlimJ87D (10059 posts) - - Show Bio

If Scathan and LT are for whatever reason about equal and LT is considered TOAA's right hand man while Michael and Lucifer are the presence's right and left hands... then I guess it might be a tie.

#45 Posted by Needlebay (1938 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer.

#46 Posted by ShootingNova (17802 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate Scathan. But indeed, the Tribunal is overrated.

That said, I give this to Lucifer.

#47 Posted by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer wins this

#48 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#49 Edited by Hulkman123 (1706 posts) - - Show Bio

Scathan

#50 Posted by GhostRider2 (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are my favorites.Scathan wins