Scathan is from a different universe and timeline, there's no reason to think the Celestial TOAA is stronger than him. TOAA was weaker than eternity, who is clearly weaker than LT. Scathan should be stronger. Same goes for Tiamut -- marvel 616 continuity and hierarchy isn't the same as Marvel-691
@All_Mighty_Beyonder: I was thinking the same, orthough did Scathan stop Protege who would slaughter everyone in this gauntlet (except GEB)?
i don't know, i think that's one of the biggest PIS ever made in Marvel history, but we can say that Scathan somehow just blinked Protege from coping powers and from seeing reality for a short moment, while LT used that device (eternal sands or something i don't remember the name) to stop him and absorb him.
I would put him at the same level as LT for the reasons in the thread above.
It clearly says here that Scathan was key to saving reality:
These scans and teh whole issue can pretty much be found on google. But Scathan clearly held Protege down and subdued him. It says that Protege tried to srping out of Scathan's grasp but he couldn't. He became frozen almost. He then continues to handcuff and block his omnipresence completely.
It says here here that Scathan is the one blocking Protege's omnipresence. I highly doubt that Galactus could have done the same for LT.
@All_Mighty_Beyonder: Well that doesn't make any sence. Protege did cope the LT, Eternity, Hwak God, the Celestial and the GOTG and almost became the new One Above All yet Scathan beat him let people have said that Scathan is not as powerful as the LT? THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENCE!!!!!!!!! thats like if Spider-Man beat Dr Manhattan or something like that, GOD! no wonder people that story arc was crap! XD
"Are you serious? The Tribunal was helpless against the powers of Protege which is why he needed Scathan to come and disapprove of him. When has the Living Tribunal ever relied on someone else to do the judging for him when he could easily do it on his own? It was clearly shown that the LT could do nothing. Way to just ignore evidence, buddy. "
Way yo try and use PIS as your evidence while ignoring the glaring plot hole of a celestial beating God. "
While I also first thought it was PIS, I later realized it was not after thinking about it some more. PIS is when a character performs a feat, or can not perform a feat that's outside and/or beyond/or below the inherent characters power-set. This is done to either defeat one that can not be defeated (at-least within a particular story)or to bring a story to an end. This was Protege's and Scathan's only appearances, so this was their character set powers, therefore no PIS was involved.
There is another way to look at it, the way it was portrayed on panel, and the way the official handbook supports what was portrayed on panel. Protege copied the full power of the LT/Eternity/Hawkgod/Beyonder/Mephisto/Malevolence & GOTG. Beyonder stated: "any and all Realitiesrests on the boys shoulders" ... (the Omniverse). The Writer himself then tells us how the LT/Eternity & Hawkgod feel about what Beyonder said. For the LT its: "logical confirmation" The LT had to draw on external power that was not his own to judge Protege. The LT's own official handbook bio tells us that Protege copied the LT's power and nearly usurped his position, (Protege was about to erase the LT and company) right before Scathan came through and stomped Protege with a gesture thus saving the Omniverse...just like it happened on-panel.
When Protege and Beyonder were fighting once again, they were interrupted by something incredible: Protege & Beyonder's battle is interrupted. Guess who made this interruption?
They end up on Scathan's hand:
Mephisto clearly states incredible power was used to cause an intra-dimensional confluence of that magnitude:
That's what was happening all that time in Scathan's hand,Protege was being judged by the LT.
Protege was able to copy this authoritative conjuncture because when LT is judging you the LT is also exercising its power. This explains why Protege had copied and surpassed LT's power, and we know for a fact Protege did surpass the LT, because the LT needed to use the Amulet to supplement his own power to deal with Protege. (I proved this with on panel evidence)
Here's Protege, clearly copying the Cosmic powers, including the LT's, just by observing the proceedings of his judgement: No power is being used by anyone, the only thing that is going on is LT's Judgement, and Eternity & Hawkgod adding to the drama with dialogue.
I gave you all the evidence needed. If you don't like it, write to Marvel and complain to them.
@whydama: No that title belongs to Tiamut The Dreaming Celestial.
No, it doesn't. Tiamut has absolutely no feats suggesting this, the Fulcrum stating something vaguely (which implies something else) has little meaning. If we're to believe that the Fulcrum is Jack Kirby, is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), or is another name for/an aspect or manifestation of TOAA, then Tiamut is not going to be as powerful anyways.
Why do people think the other celestials are above Scathan? Really...Scathan gets past almost everyone but I'm not sure about how he would against Lucifer Micheal or the Beast
@FiMFTW: I'd say he stomps though rounds 1-11, has abit of a challenge that rounds 12-14, stalemates that round 15, has a problam with rounds 16 and gets stomped that rounds 17-22. But then again he did stop Protege and Protege was more powerful them the Living Tribunal.
@SlimJ87D: Thanks for telling me ;) or though I think Scathan is below the LT as All_Mighty_Beyonder said Scathan beating Protege is one of the biggest PIS ever made in Marvel history.
P.S. Protege whining and say "NO! I WANT TO BE THE ONE ABOVE ALL! THE POWER IS MEANT TO BE MINE! AL MINE!" is quite funny :) Him and Superboy-Prime would both get along just fine LOL! XD
Scathan is sooo overrated over than one scan with Protege, and The Living Tribunal.
Actually its not only one scan, throughout the story he was treated with uber respect, Living Tribunal himself waited for Scanthan to arrive and called him his approval, even after Protege was defeated Eternity looked at Scanthan asking for approval, so thats an on panel portrayal of Scanthan needing to approve something Living Tribunal just did. Living Tribunal, Eternity both showed utmost respect to Scanthan throughout the story too, and Beyonder exclaimed with awe at the very sight on Scanthan.
Think of it this way, a writer is writing a story about a kid, a kid who can copy power of anyone who demonstrate any of their ability. The kid is going to copy the power of a living tribunal, how do you have the kid beaten at the end? One way would be to have a character more powerful than Living Tribunal (so he can beat the kid), sit there and not demonstrate any of his powers (so the kid cant copy him power). Thats what Scanthan was in the story.
As much as it doesnt fit with the over-all chronology, its pretty clear that at least for the purpose of the story, Scanthan, from the get go was hinted to be at least on par if not above Living Tribunal. How? No one knows, perhaps the writer had too much weed to smoke :p
Scathan is sooo overrated over than one scan with Protege, and The Living Tribunal.
Actually its not only one scan, throughout the story he was treated with uber respect, Living Tribunal himself waited for Scanthan to arrive and called him his approval, even after Protege was defeated Eternity looked at Scanthan asking for approval, so thats an on panel portrayal of Scanthan needing to approve something Living Tribunal just did. Living Tribunal, Eternity both showed utmost respect to Scanthan throughout the story too, and Beyonder exclaimed with awe at the very sight on Scanthan.
Think of it this way, a writer is writing a story about a kid, a kid who can copy power of anyone who demonstrate any of their ability. The kid is going to copy the power of a living tribunal, how do you have the kid beaten at the end? One way would be to have a character more powerful than Living Tribunal (so he can beat the kid), sit there and not demonstrate any of his powers (so the kid cant copy him power). Thats what Scanthan was in the story.
As much as it doesnt fit with the over-all chronology, its pretty clear that at least for the purpose of the story, Scanthan, from the get go was hinted to be at least on par if not above Living Tribunal. How? No one knows, perhaps the writer had too much weed to smoke :p
Firstly, after realizing that Protege is now a threat to the multiverse LT specifically waits from Scanthan to show up before he does anything, look at how much stress he puts in order to address Scanthan. LT tribunal doesnt show half as much respect to someone like Eternity, certainly shows Scanthan was different from normal Celestial, and was indeed written to be extremely powerful
Then Living Tribunal call Scanthan the approval, resonable to believe he was Living Tribunal's approval, because essential at the end of the series after Living Tribunal beats Protege, Eternity waits from Scanthan to approve the entire action with awe, and only after Scanthan has approved, an action performed by Living Tribunal himself, all is well.
Furthermore, look at out very cocky Beyonder, show so much respect, and awe at the mere appearance of Scanthan.
Gallery
Furthermore, where GOTG get manifested on Scanthan's hand, in a meeting of Eternity, Hawkgod, Protege, Beyonder and Living Tribunal, Beyonder seem to be more concerned with the wrath of Scanthan the Celestial above all else, certainly show he was never meant to have been a normal power celestial to begin with.
A not so convincing feat but lets put it anyways. Hawkgod wanted to show his disdain to Scanthan, Eternity thought it was ill-advised. So a near abstract level being, trying to fight Scanthan is ill adviced, certainly shows he isnt just an average celestial.
Again Protege Living Tribunal has to access more powers from from the amulate, Eternity and Hawkgod are helpless, let scanthan shows up and gives him a thumbs down Protege is instance restrained
Gallery
Now scans take away the celestial muzzle, physically restrain Protege, Living Tribunal absorbs him using the Eternal Hourglass, and after having done all that, Eternity looks for Scanthan approval before proceeding. Scanthan thanksfully says OK and its all good and dandy.
Gallery
One bio saying Scanthan Saved the day is already posted above, lets look at another bio, from Marvel Handbook 2006 :)
Pretty clear that it was Scanthan Judgement that is what helped in the defeat of Protege.
but was that an outrageous high end feat ? or an actual legit play on his overall power ?
He has very limited appearences, and thats his only feat performed something that backed by 2 bios, so very hard to argue against. We also know that everytime Scanthan was mentioned Eternity, Living Tribunal and Beyonder put him in utmost respect, so it was pretty clear he was supposed to be pretty freakin powerful from the get go.
Also think of this way, a story in which a kid has the ability to copy anyone's power who use their powers, and is going to copy Living Tribunal's own power, how do you end the issue. One possible explanation is to have a character more powerful than Living Tribunal , so he can beat Protege in the end, but make sure he doesnt showcase any powers till the end, which is pretty much what happened.
Scans are above anyways, let me know if you agree :)
Scathan is treated with great respect by the Tribunal. Clearly Scathan has great power. To me the biggest question is, is he more powerful than the Tribunal, or somewhere below him? I am going to argue that Scathan is (probably slightly) below him.
First, he does absolutely nothing to show his power until the last issue, and even that is basically one act: to contain Protege. Protege has been absorbing powers all this time, but we don't know exactly whose. Perhaps some of the Tribunal's, but not all of it, because Protege can only absorb those powers he sees used directly in front of him (as was seen earlier when he couldn't absorb the Beyonder's powers to escape the Beyonder's prison until the Beyonder used his powers, at which point Protege copied them), and the Tribunal hasn't been using his powers much at all.
So Protege's power level is completely undefined. He says he's the new One Above All, but there's no reason to think he's actually achieved that level. For one thing, clearly the actual One Above All has more power than the aggregate of those few beings in attendance. So at best Protege has all of their combined power, and I would argue he has far less than that, because they haven't been using their power much in front of him. I would especially argue that there's no specific reason to believe he has even become as powerful as the Tribunal: he does nothing to the Tribunal, and the Tribunal does nothing to him, so we have no evidence for their specific relative power levels.
So anyway, Protege says he's the One Above All, and Scathan does not approve, and he blasts Protege. If you look closely at the panel (which is annoying small and undetailed), most of the characters, including Eternity, are knocked around in this blast, but the Tribunal, whom we only see slightly, does not seem to be. As far as I can tell, he seems to be standing there solidly.
In the second picture, we don't see the LT at all.
Then Scathan makes Protege his captive. However, this does not prove that he did something the Tribunal could not. In fact, it could be evidence of the other way around. If we think of the Tribunal as Scathan's superior, like a Judge and a Bailiff, then it makes sense that the Tribunal may actually want Scathan to take care of it. He wouldn't want to dirty his hands with the actual fighting. And this fits with the Tribunal's standard behavior: he typically gets others to act for him. So basically the Tribunal waits and lets his subordinates take care of business.
He gets Scathan to cuff Protege, and the Tribunal pronounces his sentence. All this time, the Tribunal is clearly in charge. He tells Scathan what to do: take off the cuffs, etc. At no point is Scathan telling the Tribunal what to do.
Then Scathan takes off the cuffs and holds Protege while the Tribunal makes the Eternal Hourglass, lets it absorb Protege, and absorbs it into himself. This implies that the Tribunal is the one with the greater power. Scathan only imprisoned Protege; the Tribunal is the one who essentially destroyed him and absorbed him. It seems to me that destroying/absorbing takes more power than imprisoning.
Now, the LT did use the Eye of Agomatto to amp himself here, but exactly how is unknown. Who knows, maybe he used it to help Scathan. Maybe he used it to make the Eternal Hourglass. Maybe he was using its powers the whole time, so Protege could only copy those powers and not his powers. Maybe something else. In any case, there's still no evidence that Scathan could do anything the LT couldn't do.
Finally, let's look at the Tribunal's words earlier in the arc. First, the Tribunal says specifically that there is only one more powerful than him. Now he could either be referring to Scathan or the One Above All. And in another arc, I could be theoretically argued into believing that he was not be referring to TOAA, because TOAA is sort of a random being and often ignored in Marvel cosmology. But TOAA is specifically referenced a number of times in this arc, so it would be silly if the Tribunal was not referring to TOAA in this panel. He wouldn't mean, "Impossible! There is only one above the Living Tribunal, as long as you're not counting the One Above All." That seems too silly and parenthetical for the Tribunal. And, in fact, he talks directly about Scathan on the same page, so certainly if he was referencing him here, he would mention him by name. So if TOAA is the only one more powerful than the LT, then Scathan is below the LT.
On that same page, he says that Scathan "comes only to observe and record my judgement upon you both." This makes it sound like Scathan is working for the Tribunal. His job is passive. This does not sound like a job for someone more powerful than the Tribunal.
As for the two bios shown, neither says says anything about the relative power level between the LT and Scathan.
So where is Scathan (in this alternate universe)? I would say he's below the Tribunal and above Eternity, based on the way the Tribunal treats Scathan with respect and Eternity with less respect, and also because in the panel where Scathan blasts Protege, Eternity looks like he's getting knocked around.
To sum up:
--There's no on-panel evidence that Protege was stronger than the Tribunal, because the Tribunal never even tried to stop him.
--There is also no on-panel evidence that Scathan was more powerful than the Tribunal. It's not like we saw the Tribunal try to act and fail, and then we saw Scathan succeed; instead the Tribunal just stood by and waited while Scathan acted, implying that he didn't have to bother doing it himself.
--Also, the Tribunal is the one who actually absorbed Protege, Scathan only held him, and between the two actions, the Tribunal's seems to require more power.
--Finally, the Tribunal says there is only one above him, and that must mean TOAA.
--He also says Scathan is only there to record his judgements, which implies a subordinate role for Scathan.
I don't know the details of all the characters on the list. If Eternity could beat the ones at the very top, then I'd say Scathan could. If it would take the Tribunal to beat the top characters, then maybe, maybe not. :)
It's hard to say because he's from an alternate universe, so none of the characters in his arc necessarily have the same power level as in 616, so there's little direct comparison, and he only has one feat.
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