#1 Posted by k4tzm4n (36468 posts) - - Show Bio
Wolverine (bone claw)/Scarlet Spider

vs.

Taskmaster/Venom (Flash Thompson)

Location

The bar pictured above. Unpopulated.

Rules

  • Random encounter.
  • Standard gear (Wolverine does not have adamantium).
  • In character.
  • Begin at opposite ends (30 feet)
  • Standard elimination rules apply.
  • Challenge yourself. Post more than the name of the team you support -- say why you support them.

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#2 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it depends if the demon takes over venom. If that happens this could end up being a 3 on 1. Otherwise I would say Kaine is MVP and I do favor bone claw wolverine over taskmaster slightly due to the healing factor.

#3 Edited by k4tzm4n (36468 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: No, assume the whole demon aspect isn't a factor. That said, the Venom can gain control over time.

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#4 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: All right I think Kaine would take venom then. Flash should win on paper but I do think Kaine has better combat feats (his recent showing with then X-men, his fight with the guild in issue four, his fight with the rangers) and his stingers can probably do some damage to flash as would the mark of kaine (it did seem to do some damage to carnage).

#5 Edited by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@k4tzm4n: All right I think Kaine would take venom then. Flash should win on paper but I do think Kaine has better combat feats (his recent showing with then X-men, his fight with the guild in issue four, his fight with the rangers) and his stingers can probably do some damage to flash as would the mark of kaine (it did seem to do some damage to carnage).

I can agree with the mark of Kaine doing some damage, but I'm not exactly sold Kaine would take Flash. Even without the demon, I think Flash's damage soak, to me at least, is borderline ridiculous after reading his fights with the U-Foes and his recent trouncing from Toxin and ability to still keep going. While I agree Kaine can beat him and is his superior in terms of physical stats, I don't think he is so far below Kaine in speed or skill that he won't be tagging him, plus gear, and Flash's own penchant for using more bladed weaponry as of late via symbiote arms.

On top of that, even without the demon, Flash has started delving into the symbiote more and more if he has to. He did so against Carnage, and he answered more to the symbiote in Toxin's fight. The symbiote should be able to deal with the poison the stinger's release, the symbiote is resistant to most of what Kaine can dish IMO. At least to the point that Flash's own stats and skill coupled with the superior durability and healing factor could eventually take Kaine. If anything, I think if you pit these two together, it could go either way.

Aside from that, though, I do agree team 1 wins. I do think Flash is the MVP in total, but Taskmaster is the weak link here and both Wolverine and Kaine can hold off Thompson long enough that either of them can take out Taskmaster before Flash starts giving in a bit and the two would eventually double team and take him down.

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#6 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17360 posts) - - Show Bio

it depends on Flash's symbiot state, but in the end i lean towards team 1.

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#7 Posted by Immortal777 (6974 posts) - - Show Bio

Has Kaine physical stats been explained is he still Spiderman superior or are they equal with Kaine being a little more durabale? I keep meaning to catch up lol.

#8 Edited by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

I can agree with the mark of Kaine doing some damage, but I'm not exactly sold Kaine would take Flash. Even without the demon, I think Flash's damage soak, to me at least, is borderline ridiculous after reading his fights with the U-Foes

I would have to re-read the fight with the U-foes but which one are you referring to? IIRC in the first one he was dodging around them and he never really got hit until the end where he was knocked out.

I don't really remember the second fight well except venom possessing his teammates all though that was the demon. I don't think there feats should be interchangeable exactly. Flash tries to avoid vulking out and when he does this we see more human characteristics. For example when he is stabbed (well when Remeinder was writing at least) we saw blood and such. Even with Gargan when he was sinister spider-man he was affected by a pressure point from Daken. Point being is when the symbiote isn't vulked out they seem to be more human and vulnerable to harm. Flash likely wont try and Vulk out so I don't see that happening for the majority of the time so I think Kaines stats will have the edge over Flashes. I might be misremembering there second fight so I would have to re-read it if I am incorrect.

and his recent trouncing from Toxin and ability to still keep going. While I agree Kaine can beat him and is his superior in terms of physical stats, I don't think he is so far below Kaine in speed or skill that he won't be tagging him, plus gear, and Flash's own penchant for using more bladed weaponry as of late via symbiote arms.

About the toxin showing its pretty impressive but I feel like Brock was toying with him. He said that it was personal and that he was enjoying the fight, so I think he was trying to make Flahs suffer a bit. He was also laughing at venom at the one scene where venom was shooting at him. I agree its a good showing of damage soak (the part where he was stabbed) all though venom wasn't in much shape to continue fighting after that. I think Venom can take some stabs from Kaine but enough stabs should be enough to put him down with the stingers in melee. And he is willing to use them as was shown in when Flahs and Kaine fought.

Gear could be helpful to Venom but Kaine has shown he can react to the actual bullets themselves. In issue 2 of scarlet spider he saved Meland from a sniper bullet after it was fired (Kaine had his back turned from the window so it seems like Kaine heard the bullet after it was fired) and he also managed to use that undead hand ninja as a shield in issue four of scarlet spider when the bullets were approaching him. Not to mention he has impressive pain tolerance. He was stabbed with in about 5 different spots with carnages tendrils and he also took a bullet through the shoulder from smithy and a few slashes to the face from the speedster (and seemed to be moving with the slashes to avoid them decapitating which I guess is a decent speed feat). So he should be able to close the gap and make it melee IMO, since the starting distance is only 30 feet.

I don't think Flash would use blades on Kaine personally. He knows Kaine isn't bad guy so he likely wont try to kill him and I don't think he has the precession to avoid lethal slashes.

On top of that, even without the demon, Flash has started delving into the symbiote more and more if he has to. He did so against Carnage, and he answered more to the symbiote in Toxin's fight. The symbiote should be able to deal with the poison the stinger's release, the symbiote is resistant to most of what Kaine can dish IMO. At least to the point that Flash's own stats and skill coupled with the superior durability and healing factor could eventually take Kaine. If anything, I think if you pit these two together, it could go either way.

My main issue with Flash VS Kaine is that Kaine has consistently more impressive feats IMO. Flash does have some nice showings but then he also has showings like struggling with Kraven, Death Addar moving faster then he can track, and his showing against taskmaster and a few other stuff. Where as with Kaine the only real low showing I can think of is against Anna and I think that is more so due to his issues with children he seems to have and a little cause of her poison. There is also Bruiser but its assumed he was upgraded (Kaine shouldn't hurt his hand on bruiser if we are basing his stats on his daredevil showing). Kaine seems to have a better track record (I blame Remiender...I enjoyed his run on venom but he didn't seem to know much about symbiotes. He had Eddie Brock kill Hybrid with bullets....)

Aside from that, though, I do agree team 1 wins. I do think Flash is the MVP in total, but Taskmaster is the weak link here and both Wolverine and Kaine can hold off Thompson long enough that either of them can take out Taskmaster before Flash starts giving in a bit and the two would eventually double team and take him down.

I feel like on paper Flash would win but I feel like Kaine performs better in his fights then Flash does. He has his impressive feats however Flash does have his low showings as well and I feel like once we weigh them and take into account character Kaine should have the edge. It would probably be close though.

Has Kaine physical stats been explained is he still Spiderman superior or are they equal with Kaine being a little more durabale? I keep meaning to catch up lol.

His powers have been confirmed to be connected to the other.

#9 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

I would have to re-read the fight with the U-foes but which one are you referring to? IIRC in the first one he was dodging around them and he never really got hit until the end where he was knocked out.

In the first fight, Flash was dodging around, but fighting them. He was able to hurt Iron Clad, get through Vapor's poison (symbiote filtered out the poison), then people were getting hurt and he stopped. X-Ray then blasted him. Flash was not KO'd but used the symbiote's camo ability to simulate death/KO and then when they left got up and swung away. He gets in the warehouse again, throws Val's sword through X-Ray. The two fight the U-Foes and the goons before Vector unloads on them. He KO's Valkyrie but Flash is still conscious and tries to fight the demon, but loses control.

I don't really remember the second fight well except venom possessing his teammates all though that was the demon. I don't think there feats should be interchangeable exactly. Flash tries to avoid vulking out and when he does this we see more human characteristics. For example when he is stabbed (well when Remeinder was writing at least) we saw blood and such. Even with Gargan when he was sinister spider-man he was affected by a pressure point from Daken. Point being is when the symbiote isn't vulked out they seem to be more human and vulnerable to harm. Flash likely wont try and Vulk out so I don't see that happening for the majority of the time so I think Kaines stats will have the edge over Flashes. I might be misremembering there second fight so I would have to re-read it if I am incorrect.

About the toxin showing its pretty impressive but I feel like Brock was toying with him. He said that it was personal and that he was enjoying the fight, so I think he was trying to make Flahs suffer a bit. He was also laughing at venom at the one scene where venom was shooting at him. I agree its a good showing of damage soak (the part where he was stabbed) all though venom wasn't in much shape to continue fighting after that. I think Venom can take some stabs from Kaine but enough stabs should be enough to put him down with the stingers in melee. And he is willing to use them as was shown in when Flahs and Kaine fought.

Kaine was stabbed and all that, but the degree Flash has been going through lately I think is more.....violent. In his fight with Toxin, he was slashed across the eyes, disemboweled, and almost cut in half IIRC. His organs were basically spilling out at points in the fight. Kaine can deal with stabs, I won't deny that. But I think Flash's healing factor is better. And I'm not talking about completely vulking out. Flash since Minimum Carnage has seemingly been indulging slightly more in the symbiote. I think slightly indulging in it to where he doesn't restrain himself as much is becoming more in character for him. It's like how Kaine was at first as the Scarlet Spider. He was originally against the Other but finally gave in. I think Flash is somewhat doing the same but not to the degree where the symbiote takes full control. Just enough to where Flash gets a bit of a stat boost.

Gear could be helpful to Venom but Kaine has shown he can react to the actual bullets themselves. In issue 2 of scarlet spider he saved Meland from a sniper bullet after it was fired (Kaine had his back turned from the window so it seems like Kaine heard the bullet after it was fired) and he also managed to use that undead hand ninja as a shield in issue four of scarlet spider when the bullets were approaching him. Not to mention he has impressive pain tolerance. He was stabbed with in about 5 different spots with carnages tendrils and he also took a bullet through the shoulder from smithy and a few slashes to the face from the speedster (and seemed to be moving with the slashes to avoid them decapitating which I guess is a decent speed feat). So he should be able to close the gap and make it melee IMO, since the starting distance is only 30 feet.

I know, I've read every issue of Scarlet Spider. I didn't disagree Kaine is his superior statistically speaking. I mentioned it a few times in my post. I'm just saying between Flash's own stats, durability, healing, and gear, he has Kaine isn't untouchable or unbeatable and something that Flash can't react to. I'll address the rest later in the post.

My main issue with Flash VS Kaine is that Kaine has consistently more impressive feats IMO. Flash does have some nice showings but then he also has showings like struggling with Kraven, Death Addar moving faster then he can track, and his showing against taskmaster and a few other stuff. Where as with Kaine the only real low showing I can think of is against Anna and I think that is more so due to his issues with children he seems to have and a little cause of her poison. There is also Bruiser but its assumed he was upgraded (Kaine shouldn't hurt his hand on bruiser if we are basing his stats on his daredevil showing). Kaine seems to have a better track record (I blame Remiender...I enjoyed his run on venom but he didn't seem to know much about symbiotes. He had Eddie Brock kill Hybrid with bullets....)

Still not disagreeing with the superior stats. Venom changed writers and to me, personally, I feel like Bunn has been writing Flash a bit more....powerful or at least more fair. I do agree, Remender didn't seem like he knew what he was doing. He's had such good praise from UXF that I think he feels like he can do whatever and doesn't take criticism well. His Uncanny Avengers even has characters doing things that are out of character.

I feel like on paper Flash would win but I feel like Kaine performs better in his fights then Flash does. He has his impressive feats however Flash does have his low showings as well and I feel like once we weigh them and take into account character Kaine should have the edge. It would probably be close though.

Flash's writers have also seemed to have written the character differently. We both agreed Remender was off with the character. Bunn, while has still had Flash beaten at times, has seemed to have written up the character and a bit more consistently at that. Basing off their opponents and respective fights, Kaine was shown to be superior in most areas. But Flash has shown enough healing and durability and with his own stats in recent months for me to think this fight could go either way.

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#10 Edited by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Anyways, I'm not really disagreeing with much of what you say. I just don't necessarily see Kaine as the MVP here. I'm just not sold Kaine will take Flash for the majority and be the MVP. I don't say that as Kaine won't be the most dominating force, I say that more as team 1 is just far more balanced. Both can best Taskmaster and whether we agree or disagree Kaine can beat Flash, both characters on team 1 can hold him off long enough for Tasky to be beaten. He will be the first to fall IMO and regardless of what we think, I think we can both agree Flash isn't taking both of team 1.

I can see where you are coming from and even in the near future my opinion can be swayed depending on how Bunn and Yost continue to write their respective characters and how they develop them. Two issues from now, I could very well be in agreement with you. But at this point, I don't think we really have much to gain from debating each other on this subject. We both agree it will be close regardless of our respective opinions. You think Kaine is the superior, I personally believe it's about 50/50 in concerns right now.

I'd say just agree to disagree on this one point since we both are in the same conclusion, but just very slightly differences in beliefs and adamant in said beliefs.

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#11 Posted by dondave (34667 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

#12 Posted by k4tzm4n (36468 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see a debate, but sad to see this has already faded away.

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#13 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio