Scarlet Spider vs Venom

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GraniteSoldier

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#1  Edited By GraniteSoldier

Kaine Parker, clone of Spider-Man, faces off against Eddie Brock, essentially a dark and evil Spider-Man. Who is the last spider-man standing?

  • Both are in character.
  • Kaine has his stealth suit, but cannot use the Other.
  • Battle takes place here, Kaine is red X and Brock is the white X. Distance is approximately 50 meters apart, all buildings in play.
  • Victory by death, KO, or incapacitation.
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Who wins?

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Sy8000

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From what I hear, Eddie was the most powerful venom. Considering Kaine didn't fair well against flash, he should lose here.

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Twix_Right_Side

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Agent Venom definitely has the advantage in range,but Kaine should be able to dodge the bullets easily.

Kaine can also turn invisible/sound proof,so he has that edge against the symbiote (unless it can sense him).

Venom should have the physical advantages,and the skill advantage.

It's close,so I will say Venom 6/10

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GraniteSoldier

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Agent Venom definitely has the advantage in range,but Kaine should be able to dodge the bullets easily.

Kaine can also turn invisible/sound proof,so he has that edge against the symbiote (unless it can sense him).

Venom should have the physical advantages,and the skill advantage.

It's close,so I will say Venom 6/10

This isn't Agent Venom, it's just Venom. Eddie Brock not Flash Thompson.

From what I hear, Eddie was the most powerful venom. Considering Kaine didn't fair well against flash, he should lose here.

That's debatable. Most people who call themselves Venom "purists" argue that Eddie is hands down, but Flash showed plenty of capabilities Eddie never did. For example, Flash having far greater durability and healing. So it isn't necessarily fair to try to use the ABC logic.

I'm not voting for either side, I think it's an interesting fight (hence making it) just making sure some aspects are clear.

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Experio

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Venom

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Twix_Right_Side

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@twix_right_side said:

Agent Venom definitely has the advantage in range,but Kaine should be able to dodge the bullets easily.

Kaine can also turn invisible/sound proof,so he has that edge against the symbiote (unless it can sense him).

Venom should have the physical advantages,and the skill advantage.

It's close,so I will say Venom 6/10

This isn't Agent Venom, it's just Venom. Eddie Brock not Flash Thompson.

@highaccuser said:

From what I hear, Eddie was the most powerful venom. Considering Kaine didn't fair well against flash, he should lose here.

That's debatable. Most people who call themselves Venom "purists" argue that Eddie is hands down, but Flash showed plenty of capabilities Eddie never did. For example, Flash having far greater durability and healing. So it isn't necessarily fair to try to use the ABC logic.

I'm not voting for either side, I think it's an interesting fight (hence making it) just making sure some aspects are clear.

Oh,my bad.

Okay,I change my mind.

I think Kaine might take it 6-7/10.

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OreoAssassin

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#7  Edited By OreoAssassin

Brock

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ShenKuei

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#9  Edited By ShenKuei

From what I hear, Eddie was the most powerful venom. Considering Kaine didn't fair well against flash, he should lose here.

Not true. He was probably the most competent Venom (certainly more than Gargan). And he was arguably the best Venom, as a character. But he was actually the least powerful. He was only slightly stronger than Spidey (11 tons in the handbook) whereas Gargan was 50 tons (and could increase his strength with mass alteration) Flash was around the same with the symbiote sedated and even more when "Vulked". Flash also displayed many abilities that Eddie never did like creating doppelgangers and controlling people via tendrils.

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Sy8000

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Hmmm. How good is Venoms reaction time? Because even a speedster and Kraven couldn't react to a bloodlusted Kaine.

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Sy8000

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#11  Edited By Sy8000

@shenkuei said:

@highaccuser said:

From what I hear, Eddie was the most powerful venom. Considering Kaine didn't fair well against flash, he should lose here.

Not true. He was probably the most competent Venom (certainly more than Gargan). And he was arguably the best Venom, as a character. But he was actually the least powerful. He was only slightly stronger than Spidey (11 tons in the handbook) whereas Gargan was 50 tons (and could increase his strength with mass alteration) Flash was around the same with the symbiote sedated and even more when "Vulked". Flash also displayed many abilities that Eddie never did like creating doppelgangers and controlling people via tendrils.

Didn't gargan job a ton? He never seemed to have the scorpion enhancments.

Kaine is a 30 tonner by my count, so he should be stronger. If Eddie doesn't have great reaction time, he gets blitzed badly.

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proto3296

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@highaccuser: Eddie is the least powerful venom, but the most skilled with the suit and the most skilled tactically. He's a 25 tonner.

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#13  Edited By ShenKuei

@highaccuser: Gargan was undoubtedly a jobber but he was still powerful. I would compare him to the Rhino, strong, but stupid.

11 tons was his official strength level IIRC but I think he got stronger over time. At his peak 25 tons seems about right to me, like someone else posted. I think he'd be close Kaine in terms of strength. His reaction time was pretty decent. Enough to keep up with Pete certainly. I think he can keep up with Kaine.

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Sy8000

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@shenkuei said:

@highaccuser: Gargan was undoubtedly a jobber but he was still powerful. I would compare him to the Rhino, strong, but stupid.

11 tons was his official strength level IIRC but I think he got stronger over time. At his peak 25 tons seems about right to me, like someone else posted. I think he'd be close Kaine in terms of strength. His reaction time was pretty decent. Enough to keep up with Pete certainly. I think he can keep up with Kaine.

Kaine is faster than peter, and I believe stronger than Eddie. I don't know much about classic venom, but as of now I'm going with Kaine.

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GraniteSoldier

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Eddie seemed to often be in the 20-25 ton range on average. Peter is still listed as a 10 tonner these days, but even Peter is well above that. He floats around 20 without strain.

It is important to note that Eddie showed stealth capabilities like Kaine's stealth suit (hence my giving it to Kaine) and like most symbiotes is unbothered by piercing/slashing (since Kaine does have stingers). Eddie was also faster than Peter, and his webs were stronger. Physically, he should be fairly close to Kaine.

Just adding info to the fight and food for thought.

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laflux

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Eddie seemed to often be in the 20-25 ton range on average. Peter is still listed as a 10 tonner these days, but even Peter is well above that. He floats around 20 without strain.

It is important to note that Eddie showed stealth capabilities like Kaine's stealth suit (hence my giving it to Kaine) and like most symbiotes is unbothered by piercing/slashing (since Kaine does have stingers). Eddie was also faster than Peter, and his webs were stronger. Physically, he should be fairly close to Kaine.

Just adding info to the fight and food for thought.

Eh, I have no problem putting Brock in the 50 ton range TBH, Given the feats he has, and how he generally manhandles Peter. I also don't think Brock is faster than Peter though. I think their speed is pretty much comparable (Ben Reilly said Venom was just as fast as him with more muscle), and Brock's increased Durability and more savage fighting style is likely going to lend himself to be hit more than Peter would in anycase case.

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w0nd

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this is actually a very good fight. Kudos

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GraniteSoldier

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@laflux said:

@granitesoldier said:

Eddie seemed to often be in the 20-25 ton range on average. Peter is still listed as a 10 tonner these days, but even Peter is well above that. He floats around 20 without strain.

It is important to note that Eddie showed stealth capabilities like Kaine's stealth suit (hence my giving it to Kaine) and like most symbiotes is unbothered by piercing/slashing (since Kaine does have stingers). Eddie was also faster than Peter, and his webs were stronger. Physically, he should be fairly close to Kaine.

Just adding info to the fight and food for thought.

Eh, I have no problem putting Brock in the 50 ton range TBH, Given the feats he has, and how he generally manhandles Peter. I also don't think Brock is faster than Peter though. I think their speed is pretty much comparable (Ben Reilly said Venom was just as fast as him with more muscle), and Brock's increased Durability and more savage fighting style is likely going to lend himself to be hit more than Peter would in anycase case.

He's got high-end feats to put him in that range but I'm just speaking on average with no strain.

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GraniteSoldier

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@w0nd said:

this is actually a very good fight. Kudos

Thanks.

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Charles

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Bump

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w0nd

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@w0nd said:

this is actually a very good fight. Kudos

Thanks.

I actually have no answer lol.... I mean kaine could make him use up his webs i guess, but I imagine this to be one brutal slug fest

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#25  Edited By deaditegonzo

A lot of misinformation in this thread. Venom was said to be slightly above Spidey, but at his peak, in the 90s during his solo series runs, he was able to fight just about anyone. Notably, in Venom the Madness, he gave Juggernaut such a beating that Juggs just gave up and left. In Spirits of Venom, the Ghost Rider crossover, Venom handily beats Johnny Blaze (not the Rider) and Danny Ketch (As the Rider) simultaneously. In Tooth and Claw, Venom crawled out of a Black Hole carrying Wolverine.

Eddie Brock may be called the "weakest" in handbooks, but the handbooks are wrong. The only person who easily beat Venom that I can recall was the Hulk.

Eddie easily, if its not obvious.

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GraniteSoldier

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A lot of misinformation in this thread. Venom was said to be slightly above Spidey, but at his peak, in the 90s during his solo series runs, he was able to fight just about anyone. Notably, in Venom the Madness, he gave Juggernaut such a beating that Juggs just gave up and left. In Spirits of Venom, the Ghost Rider crossover, Venom handily beats Johnny Blaze (not the Rider) and Danny Ketch (As the Rider) simultaneously. In Tooth and Claw, Venom crawled out of a Black Hole carrying Wolverine.

Eddie Brock may be called the "weakest" in handbooks, but the handbooks are wrong. The only person who easily beat Venom that I can recall was the Hulk.

Eddie easily, if its not obvious.

To be fair he had a lot of plot behind some of those. For example: He had some sort of mutate in his symbiote to be able to contend with Juggernaut in The Madness. In his standard, Cain manhandled him and even then the Madness made Brock able to withstand and push around Cain but he couldn't hurt him. Cain got bored and left.

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Loading Video...

@granitesoldier: You are correct that in the Madness Venom was slightly mutated (after being knocked into a sewer he finds a radioactive goo or something), but even before that he was capable of taking everything Juggs was dishing out. After the goo however, we see Juggernaut "nope out" saying he doesnt get paid enough to take this kind of abuse. In the video ahead, jump to the 8 min 23 second mark (and mute the music :p).

But all the other instances I listed didnt even have a special context.

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Venom resisting a black hole is massive PIS. Spidey vs Firelord level if not worse.

And is that Ghost Rider fight the same one where the Penance Stare got reflected back because of the symbiote? If so, that definitely qualifies as context. And should be taken with a grain of salt.

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kidman560

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#29  Edited By kidman560

believe it or not both Kaine and Eddie have similar powers. hmm im willing to be a devils advocate here since i know both characters very well but right now my money is on Eddie. But like i said ill be challenging both

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@deaditegonzo: In general "The Madness" is widely regarded as a very PIS filled story. Venom is, in my opinion, faster than Juggernaut since Spidey has shown he can dodge Juggs regularly and Venom is usually slightly faster. So if Brock used speed and cunning that'd be one thing, but that's not how Brock fights. Going toe to toe with Juggernaut? If you aren't Hulk or Thor that's pretty much a done deal.

I say this as a life-long Venom fan, but Madness really isn't the best source to reference. And like @shenkuei said Venom resisting a black hole is PIS as well. In the 90's Marvel fans went on a Venom-spree and Marvel couldn't have him do enough crazy sh*t. I'm not buying the guy who gets ragdolled against Carnage in EVERY encounter (literally, Eddie has a terrible track record against Carnage) tanking Juggernaut and a black hole.

Unless we're going to start using Spider-Man beating Firelord as a non-PIS feat.

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deaditegonzo

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@granitesoldier: PIS was a power for 90s Brock. If the majority of showings are PIS, eventually it becomes a part of the character, think Batman.

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@granitesoldier: PIS was a power for 90s Brock. If the majority of showings are PIS, eventually it becomes a part of the character, think Batman.

Batman's PIS mostly revolves around his JL showings, but are at least consistent. Brock squaring off against Juggernaut or walking out of a black hole then getting subdued by a church bell or throttled by Carnage isn't. He's got more low-showings to balance him than the high ones. Hell, he nearly got taken out by the Jury (regular humans, not even peak) and diggers.

I love Brock, but I'm being realistic about him haha.

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@granitesoldier: PIS was a power for 90s Brock. If the majority of showings are PIS, eventually it becomes a part of the character, think Batman.

Batman is pretty consistent. He has some low showings as well.

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deaditegonzo

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@darthaznable: Im just going to disagree. New52 is totally BatGod, except for when he fights his own villains for some reason.

@granitesoldier: If youre referring to the Church bell incident I think you are, then that was near Brock's introduction and not really relevant on how he evolved. When he was drawn in the MCFarlane style as a pure villain, he was significantly weaker than he was as "The Lethal Protector". And since Carnage has never really had an ongoing, I would say that he is more powerful Venom, but we dont know really what his own limits are.

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DarthAznable

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@deaditegonzo: I haven't read New 52 Justice League honestly. It didn't look that good. I've been reading everyone's solo series.

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@darthaznable: Im just going to disagree. New52 is totally BatGod, except for when he fights his own villains for some reason.

@granitesoldier: If youre referring to the Church bell incident I think you are, then that was near Brock's introduction and not really relevant on how he evolved. When he was drawn in the MCFarlane style as a pure villain, he was significantly weaker than he was as "The Lethal Protector". And since Carnage has never really had an ongoing, I would say that he is more powerful Venom, but we dont know really what his own limits are.

He is more powerful than Venom, but would you argue that he could hang with Juggernaut? That's the point I'm getting at. Brock has also been taken out by Shriek and even struggled with Sin Eater a bit. He certainly has high showings, but those are not his average and debates aren't founded on high showings alone.

And yeah, New52 JLA Batman is absurd. His solo title is great though haha.

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Agent Venom definitely has the advantage in range,but Kaine should be able to dodge the bullets easily.

Kaine can also turn invisible/sound proof,so he has that edge against the symbiote (unless it can sense him).

Venom should have the physical advantages,and the skill advantage.

It's close,so I will say Venom 6/10

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Venom

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Kaine for the majority.

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Wolverine008

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Brock.

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Eddie's insanely high durability is what I think gets him the win