#201 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: So you're pretty much under the opinion that Yost jobs Logan to make his Spider characters look good in an inconsistent fashion? What about how he did with Kaine, though? He did give Logan fair treatment in the sense Kaine wasn't able to physically defeat him under normal means and I already made mention that Logan has healed from getting stabbed or shot through the heart and continue fighting, but when it's been destroyed completely, or at least not still one piece albeit a hole or two or not, Logan's been downed like when it was blown up in his chest. I've said it before, you're one of the only people I'll say has a better understanding of Logan than I do, so I would like your opinion if being stabbed and sliced into two pieces by a 12 inch+ venomous stinger by a 25 tonner possessed by a bloodthirsty spider entity?

Actually, I think writers have a choice. And when a "Spider" character brawls with Wolverine, that choice comes into play. Do you exhibit Wolverine's "purported" martial abilities, or do you highlight Kaine's/Spider-Man's/SpOck's superior stats ...

Yost obviously opts for the latter. In that, I feel he's out to prove a point and leave his 'mark' on the debate.

The first panel you see Wolverine go all "Raar!!" like a mindless neanderthal and lunge while Kaine spews off dialogue looking all slick. To me, that sucks and is a little cheap. I think Logan's character is meant to have a little more depth than that. I honestly think that if Kaine brawled with Wolverine, he should lose 6/10 times. Mind you, I don't think the fight was poorly written and I don't take exception to it. I enjoyed it. But Kaine cutting Wolverine's heart in two is the easy way out ... because Wolverine doing likewise and bye bye Kaine. In a brawl, Wolverine's skill coupled with his enhanced physicals and durability make brawling with him a bad idea for Kaine. My opinion hasn't changed.

So yeah ... Wolverine does job from time to time ... courtesy of his healing factor. Yost takes full advantage of that. Possibly the worst power to give a purported top tier martial artist in comics if they're meant to display any modicum of skill.

I have no problems with Wolverine dropping (at least temporarily) to that blow ... it's not Logan's damage soak that's gimped. It's his ability to cause damage that's butchered all to hell.

#202 Edited by God_Spawn (37899 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Fair enough. I just wanted your opinion if you think Kaine dropping Logan the way he did, meaning cutting his heart in two, was enough to do so, considering Logan's soak against piercing weapons.

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#203 Edited by God_Spawn (37899 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I was just giving you a hard time. Daredevil, Wolverine, and throat chop don't sit well with me because of Ennis and his hate for Logan and love of humiliating the character.

And I do think it is 50/50 in regards to current Kaine. While I don't find your post on how the fight would go necessarily accurate, I do respect your opinion enough to leave it as it is.

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#204 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: You realize he was trolling? And I can't believe you even brought up the DD throat chop and thinking SpOck was legit. I expected better of you, Slim.

Urghh, I just got De Ja Vu about all the stuff I said in the Strongest Character Spider-Man can beat, what over a year ago now. And God_Spawn was kind enough to URL block that thread.

Alright I'll stop now. Though I have a feeling there is going to be some retribution for this O_O

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#205 Posted by SlimJ87D (9941 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I was just giving you a hard time. Daredevil, Wolverine, and throat chop don't sit well with me because of Ennis and his hate for Logan and love of humiliating the character.

And I do think it is 50/50 in regards to current Kaine. While I don't find your post on how the fight would go necessarily accurate, I do respect your opinion enough to leave it as it is.

Gotcha... I had a tough day at work yesterday so I pretty much wasn't getting everyones sarcasm. I should just refrain from posting on those days.

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#206 Edited by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, I think writers have a choice. And when a "Spider" character brawls with Wolverine, that choice comes into play. Do you exhibit Wolverine's "purported" martial abilities, or do you highlight Kaine's/Spider-Man's/SpOck's superior stats ...

Yost obviously opts for the latter. In that, I feel he's out to prove a point and leave his 'mark' on the debate.

I do agree with this to a certain extent. However when was the last time Wolverine exhibited any form of real martial arts skill in a fight? The only one I can recall off the top of my head was him sparring with IF during the New Avengers. I don't think its a choice so much as consistency. Yes Wolverine is a skilled fighter when the writer wishes to bring back that part of his heritage however I feel its got to a point now where Logan hardly ever uses his proper training in a fight and opts for tanking (which is a shame). Given what i've seen of Logan it would be far more out of character for Logan to go ninja off the bat than if he tanked. I'm not saying the title is slightly biased (of course it is its Kaine's book) however unless i'm missing something big recently you can't really argue that it is Logan's MO and in a fight between the two we are far more likely (given how Wolverine is currently being written) that we are going to see the superior stats come far more into play than Logan's martial arts.


The first panel you see Wolverine go all "Raar!!" like a mindless neanderthal and lunge while Kaine spews off dialogue looking all slick. To me, that sucks and is a little cheap. I think Logan's character is meant to have a little more depth than that. I honestly think that if Kaine brawled with Wolverine, he should lose 6/10 times. Mind you, I don't think the fight was poorly written and I don't take exception to it. I enjoyed it. But Kaine cutting Wolverine's heart in two is the easy way out ... because Wolverine doing likewise and bye bye Kaine. In a brawl, Wolverine's skill coupled with his enhanced physicals and durability make brawling with him a bad idea for Kaine. My opinion hasn't changed.

When written properly I agree with this however given how he's consistently written no.


So yeah ... Wolverine does job from time to time ... courtesy of his healing factor. Yost takes full advantage of that. Possibly the worst power to give a purported top tier martial artist in comics if they're meant to display any modicum of skill.

I have no problems with Wolverine dropping (at least temporarily) to that blow ... it's not Logan's damage soak that's gimped. It's his ability to cause damage that's butchered all to hell.

Yeah this a problem a lot of characters face. Especially when we consider how well known Wolverine is and how much his HF is now part of his character. I would almost go as far as to say considering we haven't seen Logan use his famed skills in combat of late that he is bordering on a different version.

#207 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

There has been a few examples over kinda recent years. Wolverine Origins focused on him undergoing some refresher classes with Shang-Chi (Ironic, as Shang-Chi is somewhat inferior to Logan but oh well), with Shang-Chi praising his prowess, but stating that his mind wasn't in the right place- due to Daken. Then you have Avengers and X-Men no.12 I believe, where he pressure points Kid Gladiator, who Rocked Rulks jaw and said Drew's Venom Blasts tickled, and spouted that he had knowledge of how too kill everything in the Galaxy. Go a bit further and he was able to give Cap a embolism on his leg, by kicking him in a precise area. And there is of course, Manifest destiny.

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#208 Posted by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Pity he never actually leads with his combat skills lol. One of the best feats i've seen from Wolverine in a while was from a crossover which makes me sad as its non-cannon.

#209 Edited by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Pity he never actually leads with his combat skills lol. One of the best feats i've seen from Wolverine in a while was from a crossover which makes me sad as its non-cannon.

TBH, I blame Savage Wolverine >:P

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#210 Posted by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Call me when Logan can do this in cannon 616 T.T:

#211 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

Was that just an excuse to show of a Darkness/Marvel crossover ;)

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#212 Edited by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: It was for both reasons! If Logan had those reactions in 616 he'd be much better off!

#213 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: It was for both reasons! If Logan had those reactions in 616 he'd be much better off!

I think Logan could if he tried. A weakened Spider-Man did so, as has Udon Taskmaster, Iron Fist, and when Logan is trying, I'd put his combat speed around those levels. But, Giving his healing factor, I doubt that's going to happen. The last time I remember Logan being hit with a Sniper Bullet was in X-Force, sex and violence, and it K.O'ed him momentarily. As I Super_Soldier pointed out, its dez pesky healing factor. Better pray Ian Nottingham doesn't go the same route :P

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#214 Edited by God_Spawn (37899 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@strider92 said:

@laflux: Pity he never actually leads with his combat skills lol. One of the best feats i've seen from Wolverine in a while was from a crossover which makes me sad as its non-cannon.

TBH, I blame Savage Wolverine >:P

Savage Wolverine actually had him using his skill a few times. Cho just underwrites Logan's statistical abilities and powers pretty low IMO to the point Logan is left extremely vulnerable.

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#215 Edited by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Catching a bullet is one thing. Catching a sniper bullet from a high-powered rifle and letting it get that close before even moving your hand is another. Spider-man would have trouble doing that.

Meuh Nottingham isn't going any route at the moment since the Doppelganger took over being the Darkness and lolstomped everyone he didn't like out of reality T.T. Until Jackie comes back the whole current Top Cow-verse is screwed as no-one can beat current Darkness. So until then I don't get anymore Nottingham feats :(

#216 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Phaa!!!! Spider-Man has never had trouble with Sniper Rifle Bullets. Even Ult Spider-Man...... oh right

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#217 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

@laflux said:

@strider92:

There has been a few examples over kinda recent years. Wolverine Origins focused on him undergoing some refresher classes with Shang-Chi (Ironic, as Shang-Chi is somewhat inferior to Logan but oh well), with Shang-Chi praising his prowess, but stating that his mind wasn't in the right place- due to Daken. Then you have Avengers and X-Men no.12 I believe, where he pressure points Kid Gladiator, who Rocked Rulks jaw and said Drew's Venom Blasts tickled, and spouted that he had knowledge of how too kill everything in the Galaxy. Go a bit further and he was able to give Cap a embolism on his leg, by kicking him in a precise area. And there is of course, Manifest destiny.

There've been tons of instances wherein Logan's shown top tier skill. I don't agree one whit with the majority of strider92's post - though I understand how it adheres to popular opinion. There are so many books wherein Logan displays top tier skill in 2012 alone, I don't even know where to begin. let's pick a random book; I just skimmed through Schism #1 again (crappy read, I know, don't ask) for giggles tonight, and there are a few scenes we normally gloss over as though they're nothing. But if we choose to pay special attention, we would see Wolverine sneak easily into the United Nations, passing through security with ease (skill ala ninja style) to give Cyclops the "all clear". You see Wolverine decapitating Sentinels with ease a few pages later - proving one claw swipe does not always leave cosmetic scratches unless he means them to ... proving one claw swipe can easily remove heads.

Many books have a lot of little nuances like that, (let alone Schism #1 of all books), nuances that if we're attentive, highlight dozens of spectacular skill feats for Logan annually. Feats that the casual reader never picks up on, or knows of because he doesn't really read the material.

How many of you know Wolverine beat a bloke called Murderous Lion in his own title, for instance (another random example off the top of my head) - a mystical martial artist, one of the best on Marvel earth, wielding mystical powers to boot - and this while having a portion of his skill gimped due to time spent training with Master Po having been obliterated by the tamperings of Dr. Rot? Again, this is but one example of a "skill" showing most casual fans don't even register.

So yeah ... strider92's comments are not all wrong, but far from accurate as they are blanket comments based largely on popular opinion whilst ignoring a plethora of feats he doesn't even know exist.

Wolverine tanks damage to expedite the butt whoopin. But there are plenty of skill feats out there. If his sparring match with Iron Fist is the only one strider can think of in the recent past, well, simply put, he doesn't read Wolverine and should reserve opinion ... in my humble opinion.

#218 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

@laflux said:

@strider92:

There has been a few examples over kinda recent years. Wolverine Origins focused on him undergoing some refresher classes with Shang-Chi (Ironic, as Shang-Chi is somewhat inferior to Logan but oh well), with Shang-Chi praising his prowess, but stating that his mind wasn't in the right place- due to Daken. Then you have Avengers and X-Men no.12 I believe, where he pressure points Kid Gladiator, who Rocked Rulks jaw and said Drew's Venom Blasts tickled, and spouted that he had knowledge of how too kill everything in the Galaxy. Go a bit further and he was able to give Cap a embolism on his leg, by kicking him in a precise area. And there is of course, Manifest destiny.

There've been tons of instances wherein Logan's shown top tier skill. I don't agree one whit with the majority of strider92's post - though I understand how it adheres to popular opinion. There are so many books wherein Logan displays top tier skill in 2012 alone, I don't even know where to begin. let's pick a random book; I just skimmed through Schism #1 again (crappy read, I know, don't ask) for giggles tonight, and there are a few scenes we normally gloss over as though they're nothing. But if we choose to pay special attention, we would see Wolverine sneak easily into the United Nations, passing through security with ease (skill ala ninja style) to give Cyclops the "all clear". You see Wolverine decapitating Sentinels with ease a few pages later - proving one claw swipe does not always leave cosmetic scratches unless he means them to ... proving one claw swipe can easily remove heads.

Many books have a lot of little nuances like that, (let alone Schism #1 of all books), nuances that if we're attentive, highlight dozens of spectacular skill feats for Logan annually. Feats that the casual reader never picks up on, or knows of because he doesn't really read the material.

How many of you know Wolverine beat a bloke called Murderous Lion in his own title, for instance (another random example off the top of my head) - a mystical martial artist, one of the best on Marvel earth, wielding mystical powers to boot - and this while having a portion of his skill gimped due to time spent training with Master Po having been obliterated by the tamperings of Dr. Rot? Again, this is but one example of a "skill" showing most casual fans don't even register.

So yeah ... strider92's comments are not all wrong, but far from accurate as they are blanket comments based largely on popular opinion whilst ignoring a plethora of feats he doesn't even know exist.

Wolverine tanks damage to expedite the butt whoopin. But there are plenty of skill feats out there. If his sparring match with Iron Fist is the only one strider can think of in the recent past, well, simply put, he doesn't read Wolverine and should reserve opinion ... in my humble opinion.

I was actually aware of Wolverine sneaking into the United Nations, and have that issue back at home, lol. For me, I don't consider that to be one of Logan's better showings. Most streets, with generic Martial arts mastery have been able to infiltrate and take down traditional government agencies. Even Comedian has been able to do something along those lines IIRC, and I'm of the opinion that Watchmen characters are no where near top tier streets in terms of Martial arts skill. Plus Wolverine going against the White House in a what-if is cooler- when has the U.N done anything useful anyways :P

And No, I don't I was unaware of Murderous Lion (though the name doesn't inspire much TBH)

As for Sentinels, they are kinda jobbers- I mean even Warpath (nerfed version) was thunderclapping them down. I hate to bring Spider-Man into this (actually I don't), but he was casually wrecking through multiple models in his civilian clothing. though genuinely think Pham made a mistake. Kaine has a impressive healing factor, but he really shouldn't be able to tank a slash like that to face with no effort whatsoever. Also decapitating a slow moving target is going to be alot harder than doing so to a object that can moves as fast a Kaine, and is a smaller target to boot- I honestly think that's what Pham was trying to portray

As for the Wolverine vs Iron Fist, Its a nice feat yes, but its kinda hard to gauge what actually comprises Logan's skill, and what comprises his physical advantage. Without Chi usage, Iron Fist is at best as quick as Logan (Probably slower even), is weaker, and lacks the means to actually put down Logan. I would find it to be jobbing if Logan didn't win that encounter.

Logan and Spider-Man (to a lesser extent) share similar problems when it comes to the portrayal of their powers. Both have powers which really push them to the limits of street-level (if not beyond). Add in Logan martial arts skills, and then becomes much harder for authors to apply threats to them. Likewise with Peter Pre-Dying Wish, how fun would it be if he was speed-blitzing the sh!t out of every foe he came cross and hitting pressures points with 10-20 tonne strength? On top of using his new gear? In fact, how many times have we seen him do that, since Spider-Island. Twice, in the Vulture arc which followed directly afterwards and in Ends of the Earth. So I guess it will always come down to a compromise, unless an author want to crown a protagonist with awesomeness.

When you combine this with Yost, who clearly want to fully show the capabilities of Kaine and SpOck (which isn't uncommon for new heroes), it makes for some funny unfortunate events on Logan's behalf.

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#219 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

scarlet spider stomps no?

#220 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

You make a good point in your last paragraph ... but seem to have entirely missed my point in your critique of the "feats" I had mentioned. I was in no way referring to them as high end "oh my god" worthy feats. Merely that many of the apparently "mundane" showings have Logan's skill pop up all the time - I picked two books I found on my bedroom floor as easy on hand examples (as I have no time these days, and little interest, in digging deeper). Logan acts "dumb" when him doing otherwise would leave a well known antagonist dead ... and Marvel can't have that.

I used the Sentinels to clearly highlight that Wolverine's damage output jobs all too often because he has to. If he didn't, people die. He hits a hero in the face, they have a scratch. He swings at a far larger and more durable Sentinel, and the heads fly off. It's a distinction worth mentioning. An easy conclusion that Wolverine does indeed hold back can be made.

Spider-Man could be shown to speed blitz and knocking foes down without having to account for why they're still alive after the fact (easy, Parker pulled his punches). It's not so easy with Logan. Though your point that they both push the upper limits of "street level" is well taken.

#221 Edited by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:


As for Sentinels, they are kinda jobbers- I mean even Warpath (nerfed version) was thunderclapping them down. I hate to bring Spider-Man into this (actually I don't), but he was casually wrecking through multiple models in his civilian clothing. though genuinely think Pham made a mistake. Kaine has a impressive healing factor, but he really shouldn't be able to tank a slash like that to face with no effort whatsoever. Also decapitating a slow moving target is going to be alot harder than doing so to a object that can moves as fast a Kaine, and is a smaller target to boot- I honestly think that's what Pham was trying to portray


I wanted to hit you everytime you mistook Barberi's awesome art for Pham's passable art!!!!

#222 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:


As for Sentinels, they are kinda jobbers- I mean even Warpath (nerfed version) was thunderclapping them down. I hate to bring Spider-Man into this (actually I don't), but he was casually wrecking through multiple models in his civilian clothing. though genuinely think Pham made a mistake. Kaine has a impressive healing factor, but he really shouldn't be able to tank a slash like that to face with no effort whatsoever. Also decapitating a slow moving target is going to be alot harder than doing so to a object that can moves as fast a Kaine, and is a smaller target to boot- I honestly think that's what Pham was trying to portray


I wanted to hit you everytime you mistook Barberi's awesome art for Pham's passable art!!!!

*checks cover*- Ops, my bad. Though personally, I feel that there isn't much difference between the quality (insert trololol *GIF*) of the two. And I honestly think Stegman is the "superior" Spider artist :P in anycase.

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#223 Edited by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I want to hurt you even more badly now for the comparison and the fact you call Stegman the "Superior" artist (not because he isn't a better artist but because.......well you know!)

#224 Edited by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I want to hurt you even more badly now for the comparison and the fact you call Stegman the "Superior" artist (not because he isn't a better artist but because.......well you know!)

You should have seen it coming.................

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#225 Posted by Strider92 (16496 posts) - - Show Bio
#226 Posted by HyperViper97 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

Hopefully someone can back this up with the kaine punching through venoms jaw scan, but shouldn't incap by web then uppercutting Logan repeatedly give SS the win?

#227 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

For some reason I just see Kaine doing this to Logan...

#228 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Yeah ... cept Cage won't be there to save him from Wolverine's rebuttal.

#229 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Yeah ... cept Cage won't be there to save him from Wolverine's rebuttal.

Never said Kaine was going to win. The pic just came into my mind when I saw this thread.

#230 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii said:

@omgomgwtfwtf: Yeah ... cept Cage won't be there to save him from Wolverine's rebuttal.

Never said Kaine was going to win. The pic just came into my mind when I saw this thread.

Guess you don't really have to say it ... because Kaine just did. Win that is. Agree or disagree ... it just happened in Scarlet Spider #17.

Logan, Marvel's resident "raar"ing punching bag.

#231 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Wow, I didn't actually know that. I don't keep up with Scarlet Spider, so I wasn't aware they fought. Was the battle at least entertaining?

#232 Edited by jashro44 (21870 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Wow, I didn't actually know that. I don't keep up with Scarlet Spider, so I wasn't aware they fought. Was the battle at least entertaining?

It was very short and one sided. The scans are on the previous page.

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#233 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf:

@jashro44 said:

@omgomgwtfwtf said:

@super_soldierxii: Wow, I didn't actually know that. I don't keep up with Scarlet Spider, so I wasn't aware they fought. Was the battle at least entertaining?

It was very short and one sided. The scans are on the previous page.

Yeah sure ... in the same book Yost had Kaine walk through an Omega level mutant so ... whatever.

#234 Posted by jashro44 (21870 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: I don't think Kaine did anything to iceman. Granted iceman was just tossing snow balls at Kaine for plot sake rather then some mass area of effect ice beam so I agree there was some PIS.

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#235 Edited by God_Spawn (37899 posts) - - Show Bio
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#236 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio
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#237 Posted by God_Spawn (37899 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: k4tz showed me already and I already read the issue. So slow.

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#238 Posted by Gambit474 (1468 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Kaine allowed to turn into his monster spider form?

#239 Posted by laflux (16001 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: k4tz showed me already and I already read the issue. So slow.

Its the thought that counts......................

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#240 Posted by Mee09 (659 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine. I just don't see Wolverine taking him down.

#241 Posted by dondave (37530 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine

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#242 Edited by Wolverine08 (42378 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine, but Wolverine will give him a great fight. If he brawled with Wolverine, he'd lose the majority. Fighting smartly and using webbing for incapacitation will give Kaine the majority.

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#243 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9295 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine, but Wolverine will give him a great fight. If he brawled with Wolverine, he'd lose the majority. Fighting smartly and using webbing for incapacitation will give Kaine the majority.

#244 Edited by GraniteSoldier (7859 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine, but Wolverine will give him a great fight. If he brawled with Wolverine, he'd lose the majority. Fighting smartly and using webbing for incapacitation will give Kaine the majority.

I agree with this, although I think a fight between Kaine and Logan is actually closer than a Peter/Logan fight because of Kaine's character. He's a lot less likely to go for webs, especially at first, and does not have spider sense, even though he doesn't hold back nearly as much as Peter. Not to mention that Peter has his martial training, whereas Kaine is a (highly effective) brawler. I'm not trying to degrade Kaine here, I love him (which I'm sure Wolverine08 here knows) but I'm being realistic about a fight between the two. His fight with Logan in Scarlet is not a great showing for either, so I'm not even going to bring that up. Kaine will get by on speed, and the eventual webbing. But if Logan can tag him early, which I think he has the potential to do no matter how unlikely, it can be over very fast. I give Kaine a 6-6.5/10 margin here.

#245 Posted by Wolverine08 (42378 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Kaine, but Wolverine will give him a great fight. If he brawled with Wolverine, he'd lose the majority. Fighting smartly and using webbing for incapacitation will give Kaine the majority.

I agree with this, although I think a fight between Kaine and Logan is actually closer than a Peter/Logan fight because of Kaine's character. He's a lot less likely to go for webs, especially at first, and does not have spider sense, even though he doesn't hold back nearly as much as Peter. Not to mention that Peter has his martial training, whereas Kaine is a (highly effective) brawler. I'm not trying to degrade Kaine here, I love him (which I'm sure Wolverine08 here knows) but I'm being realistic about a fight between the two. His fight with Logan in Scarlet is not a great showing for either, so I'm not even going to bring that up. Kaine will get by on speed, and the eventual webbing. But if Logan can tag him early, which I think he has the potential to do no matter how unlikely, it can be over very fast. I give Kaine a 6-6.5/10 margin here.

I whole heartedly agree. Like I noted with my Wolf vs Scarlet Spider debate where I was debating for Kaine, unlike Marvel's other Spiders, Kaine doesn't have a fighting style based on avoidance and agility (a fighting style perfect for combatting Wolverine's close ranged style). He just likes to get up close and personal with his foes and punch em' out. If he tried to play that against Wolverine, things wouldn't end very well. While Logan has already shown that he can soak any blunt force trauma that Kaine dishes out in Scarlet Spider #17 due to that unbreakable adamantium skeleton, Kaine despite his insane pain tolerance won't be able to soak six adamantium claws going into any part of his anatomy unfortunately. For Kaine to win, he'd have to recognize that trying his usual strength based up close and personal brawling style won't serve him well, and fall back on speed, avoidance, and webbing. That would give him the majority. Going for the usual would end up with Logan getting a hard fought majority.

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#246 Posted by GraniteSoldier (7859 posts) - - Show Bio

@granitesoldier said:

@wolverine08 said:

Kaine, but Wolverine will give him a great fight. If he brawled with Wolverine, he'd lose the majority. Fighting smartly and using webbing for incapacitation will give Kaine the majority.

I agree with this, although I think a fight between Kaine and Logan is actually closer than a Peter/Logan fight because of Kaine's character. He's a lot less likely to go for webs, especially at first, and does not have spider sense, even though he doesn't hold back nearly as much as Peter. Not to mention that Peter has his martial training, whereas Kaine is a (highly effective) brawler. I'm not trying to degrade Kaine here, I love him (which I'm sure Wolverine08 here knows) but I'm being realistic about a fight between the two. His fight with Logan in Scarlet is not a great showing for either, so I'm not even going to bring that up. Kaine will get by on speed, and the eventual webbing. But if Logan can tag him early, which I think he has the potential to do no matter how unlikely, it can be over very fast. I give Kaine a 6-6.5/10 margin here.

I whole heartedly agree. Like I noted with my Wolf vs Scarlet Spider debate where I was debating for Kaine, unlike Marvel's other Spiders, Kaine doesn't have a fighting style based on avoidance and agility (a fighting style perfect for combatting Wolverine's close ranged style). He just likes to get up close and personal with his foes and punch em' out. If he tried to play that against Wolverine, things wouldn't end very well. While Logan has already shown that he can soak any blunt force trauma that Kaine dishes out in Scarlet Spider #17 due to that unbreakable adamantium skeleton, Kaine despite his insane pain tolerance won't be able to soak six adamantium claws going into any part of his anatomy unfortunately. For Kaine to win, he'd have to recognize that trying his usual strength based up close and personal brawling style won't serve him well, and fall back on speed, avoidance, and webbing. That would give him the majority. Going for the usual would end up with Logan getting a hard fought majority.

It's just a matter of surviving long enough to realize he can't put Wolverine down with his favorite methods...

#247 Posted by Wolverine08 (42378 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@granitesoldier said:

@wolverine08 said:

Kaine, but Wolverine will give him a great fight. If he brawled with Wolverine, he'd lose the majority. Fighting smartly and using webbing for incapacitation will give Kaine the majority.

I agree with this, although I think a fight between Kaine and Logan is actually closer than a Peter/Logan fight because of Kaine's character. He's a lot less likely to go for webs, especially at first, and does not have spider sense, even though he doesn't hold back nearly as much as Peter. Not to mention that Peter has his martial training, whereas Kaine is a (highly effective) brawler. I'm not trying to degrade Kaine here, I love him (which I'm sure Wolverine08 here knows) but I'm being realistic about a fight between the two. His fight with Logan in Scarlet is not a great showing for either, so I'm not even going to bring that up. Kaine will get by on speed, and the eventual webbing. But if Logan can tag him early, which I think he has the potential to do no matter how unlikely, it can be over very fast. I give Kaine a 6-6.5/10 margin here.

I whole heartedly agree. Like I noted with my Wolf vs Scarlet Spider debate where I was debating for Kaine, unlike Marvel's other Spiders, Kaine doesn't have a fighting style based on avoidance and agility (a fighting style perfect for combatting Wolverine's close ranged style). He just likes to get up close and personal with his foes and punch em' out. If he tried to play that against Wolverine, things wouldn't end very well. While Logan has already shown that he can soak any blunt force trauma that Kaine dishes out in Scarlet Spider #17 due to that unbreakable adamantium skeleton, Kaine despite his insane pain tolerance won't be able to soak six adamantium claws going into any part of his anatomy unfortunately. For Kaine to win, he'd have to recognize that trying his usual strength based up close and personal brawling style won't serve him well, and fall back on speed, avoidance, and webbing. That would give him the majority. Going for the usual would end up with Logan getting a hard fought majority.

It's just a matter of surviving long enough to realize he can't put Wolverine down with his favorite methods...

But, but, if it ain''t broke don't fix it. LOL.

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#248 Posted by Tracy (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@super_soldierxii:

I think the artist got the face slash wrong. I really think it was meant to be a glancing blow (like Spider-Man vs Logan in the Other Glancing blow), but it seemed alot more heavy handed than that.

While Logan not using any martial arts skill was kinda disappointing, I do think the fight was in the right direction when compared to SpOck vs Logan (As in Kaine using Blunt Trauma attacks didn't work, and Logan kept up alot better). Although as for Kaine taking heavy slashes from Logan, he does seem to sport an impressive healing factor himself. He was impaled by one of Carnage's tendrils, and the damage seemed gone by the end of the issue. So maybe, a heavier slash was intended, to show of Kaine's resilience in comparison to say Spider-Man.

Okay, that's enough, I really bumped this thread to do this

@god_spawn @strider92 @jashro44 @slimj87d

*Clears Throat*

Spider-Man and Kaine are 100 tonners. SpOck Flat out Koed Logan in 4 hits, something WWH couldn't do in seven. Kaine is even stronger than Spider-Man, so Kaine not one shotting Logan when they fought was PIS. Even in that fight, Kaine breaks Logan's face in the fight with one blow.

The scans don't lie

Also Spider-Man and Kaine are Team busters. When SpOck was handing Logan his arse, none of the other Mutant dare step in, including the omega level mutants. When Kaine broke in the mutant school he was kicking all the mutants arse's so hard, Logan had to come and try to stop him, and then Logan got humiliated in front of his students........ Again. When Kaine Killed Logan, he asked who is next, and they all stood there, knowing the power of Kaine was just too much to handle

This matches up with when Logan, colossus, Rogue, Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Xavier where all beaten like red headed step kids by Spider-Man in the secret wars. As you can see, Spider-Man swats Logan away like a fly (Hence why Spider-Man can K.O him so easily). Nightcrawler ends up just praising Spider-Man in amazement, at how awesome he, as he swings off to give Titania a beating (who put She-Hulk in hospital mind you), and Logan admits that he got Clobbered. It also shows that Spider-Man is an Omega level Telepath as he was able to shield his mind, so Xavier couldn't sense him coming.

So there you have it, evidence to show Spider-Man beats Wolverine everyday of the week, and three times on Sunday (since he's extra religious).

*Rocks out to song below*

What are Kaine's powers exactly? Some people say he is the more aggressive version of Spider-Man, and is his suit some form of symboite or something? I don't know much about him and from what I hear, I think he has a fairer chance of beating Logan than Spidey. I saw this scan floating about, it's from Scarlet Spider #18-p4

Logan knocks Kaine out here and in your scan, Kaine knocks out Logan. What really happened here and does Kaine's suit protect him from Logan's claws? Cause I saw in your scan Kaine taking a claw to the face and still fighting like nothing happened

#249 Posted by jashro44 (21870 posts) - - Show Bio

@tracy said:


What are Kaine's powers exactly? Some people say he is the more aggressive version of Spider-Man, and is his suit some form of symboite or something? I don't know much about him and from what I hear, I think he has a fairer chance of beating Logan than Spidey. I saw this scan floating about, it's from Scarlet Spider #18-p4

Logan knocks Kaine out here and in your scan, Kaine knocks out Logan. What really happened here and does Kaine's suit protect him from Logan's claws? Cause I saw in your scan Kaine taking a claw to the face and still fighting like nothing happened

The fight between Kaine and wolverine was staged, but the other possessed Kaine and he stabbed Logan in the heart. Logan regenerates, gets up and punches Kaine out IIRC after he was restrained by the rest of the X-men. Kaines suit isn't a symbiote but it is a stealth suit. Kaine is a physically better version of spider-man who is more brutal but lacks spider-sense.

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#250 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@tracy: If you want to see Kaine's capabilities, click here for my Respect Thread.