Has Kaine actually avoided bullets from someone as accurate as Deadshot? Also accounting for Slade pressuring Kaine at the same time?
Not that I recall but he can dodge bullets after they are fired, and he does have some great pain tolerance as well.
If that's the case then Deadshot probably shoots him, leading to Kaine's death at the hands of either more bullets or Deathstroke.
I don't think it will be that easy. As mentioned Kaine can dodge bullets after they are fired and he has tanked bullets (I remember him taking a bullet to the shoulder without showing any signs of pain really) and other various stabs (slashes from knives, stabs from carnages tendrils in multiple different areas, slashes across the face from a speedster [I assume he did move with the slashes to an extent so that doubles as a reflex feat]). He's also pretty good at fighting multiple mercenaries at a time, and all though the team he fought in issue 4 of his ongoing is obviously different than the duo he has used the bodies of other people to shield himself in the past:
I could see him doing similar with Slade if deadshot tries to shoot him and tthentossing Slade at deadshot. Deathstorke in the new 52 has some impressive feats but I don't think he has really faced an established metahuman similar to kaine (he did face beast boy and warblade but there powersets are way different from what I know). He also has webbing so Kaine can attack from a distance if he needs to. He's been able to tag one of the lobos which are faster than spider-man, and his webbing also has huge area of effect to it:
Admittedly Kaine hasn't faced a marksmen of deadshots level that I recall but I don't think deadshot can shoot kaine in the head for a majority. He's also not against using guns (he's used them before) so there is the possibility he could steal deathstrokes gun and start shooting at deadshot. All though deadshot has tagged captain boomerang and mister miracle (well he shot mister miracles arial disk from underneath him) both of whom are faster than kaine, kaine is more agile than either as well. So I do think he will have issues tagging Kaine.
EDIT: He also managed to tag SpOck by the spider legs which is pretty impressive.
Just to try and nudge people's opinions a little who may be unaware of this, Kaine is not bullet proof. He may have some resistance but a bullet has been able to go through him in the past:
He does cope with it well but characters like Moon Knight have be able to knock off bullets to non-fatal areas. He has also been damaged by sharp weaponry before, a speedster wielding a sword was able to bring Kaine to his knees (although he did get back up) and the claws of a werewolf did leave scratches. I'm not saying the duo win but I would say Kaine "wrecks" either.
If we were to get a little bit crazy, I could argue for the Punisher doing the same. Everyone and their grandmother has dodged bullets after they were fired.
When has punisher dodged bullets after they are fired? All though yes I get what your saying. Lot of characters have done so.
Carnage stabbing Kaine through the torso is pretty good I suppose, but if Deadshot hits his head or something else vital, or at least something that will slow him down for the rest of the fight, I don't see Kaine winning. @thetruebarryallen can probably provide Deadshot's best accuracy feats against fast characters/targets.
I think it would be difficult for deadshot to shoot Kaine in the head due to his agility. As for slowing Kaine down Kaines, with kaines pain tolerance I don't see that happening. Dandyman uploaded the scan above of Kaine getting shot in the souldar and than slashed by a speedster, but kaine was still in capable enough condition to later out react the speedster (who was initially too fast for him to see).
Slade is also a highly capable marksman, on top of Deadshot. One of them will hit Kaine.
Deathstorke is more of a CQC fighter in the new 52 much like Kaine. I don't think Slade is likely to keep his distance anymore than I think Kaine is likely to web spam right off the bat.
He can react to bullets after they're fired, no doubt. But Deadshot is good at setting opponents up for shots they can't avoid, to say nothing of his ricochets. With Deathstroke crowding Kaine one way I'm sure Lawton could work something out.
Well the point wasn't that he could react after they are fired so much as he could possibly use Slade as a human shield to block deadshots bullets if needed.
Kaine has to be next to Deathstroke, and away from Deadshots bullets, in order to use Deathstroke as a shield. Until Kaine has a surefire way of getting past Slade and Floyd's simultaneous gunfire I don't see him taking any shields.
If the duo were to shoot at kaine and he were to not use webbing I would agree the duos accuracy will overwhelm kaine. But I don't think Slade is going to stay back and maintain distance.
Well, in the New 52 Slade took a fly out with a paperclip and caught a speedster by the throat. He has enough operational speed to keep up with Kaine, especially if Kaine is dodging bullets or has already eaten a few.
Are you talking about the furry cat thing Slade sense through air currents? Its not a bad feat but I don't recall any speed feats from the speedster deathstroke reacted to. I agree new 52 Slade has some very good aim.
That Lobo didn't look too.. fast, from the scan. Maybe I'm wrong. Just seems like Kaine tagged him in the midst of CQC, which is decent.
It was CQC admittedly. As for the lobos speed here:
The Lobos did have a scene where they beat some thugs of kingpin without getting shot as well for whats its worth. So they are capable of dodging. They aren't as agile as Peter admittedly and they don't have his spider-sense but there speed is impressive.
New 52 Slade, without enhancements from his armor, has deflected a bullet with a chain, so I see him as capable of reacting to webs which as far as I know aren't bullet speed.
Not sure how fast this would make kaines webbing but Peter with the other powers was able to fire his webbing down the barrel of a gun after the trigger was pulled. The webbing reached the gun before the bullet left the barrel:
Lawton can probably shoot through the webs with his wrist-guns if he gets tied up.
As I showed above a gun exploded when Peter shot webbing down a gun when he had the other. I imagine similar should happen to Lawton if he is webbed up, assuming you mean he tries to escape by shooting the webbing? If you mean he can shoot while webbed up, that might be possible but he wont really be able to aim.
Plus, doesn't Kaine go for CQC 90% of the time opposed to going for the web incap?
This is true. I mostly brought up webbing as something he can fall back on. I think if he has to use webbing he will use it. His initial instincts will be to go in close though.
I don't see why not personally. Deadshot from what I can remember from past debates has tagged people with equivalent bullet timing feats to Kaine. But to be safe Floyd has Slade backing him up here.
He has tagged faster, but he hasn't tagged someone with the speed and agility combination kaine has to my knowledge.
Again, he needs to near Deathstroke and not have bullet holes in him in order to take the gun, unless you mean he would web-steal a gun, which gives Floyd the perfect opportunity to shoot Kaine.
As I mentioned above from what I recall new 52 deathstroke is primarily a melee fighter. I mostly recall him going melee in most of his significant battles.
I agree he'll have issues.. but Kaine isn't the same bullet dodger as Peter, which is something I think people may be overlooking when they just post "Kaine wrecks" without a second thought.
I can see where you're coming from and understand your points. I don't think this is a stomp.
That's pretty good.. seems weird that SpOck didn't even attempt to dodge, though. SpOck isn't shooting Kaine in that scan though, which is what Kaine has to deal with in this thread.
It could be that SpOck didn't have a chance to dodge. All though fair enough.
@i_like_swords: I'm a bit tired right now so apologies if I misread anything.
During Dark Reign he was put in front of a group of soldiers disguised as cops with machine guns in a cramped sewer, and as they began firing at him Frank was told via ear-com that they weren't really cops. It happens off-panel but Frank butchers them with a knife, but IMO it's kind of impossible for him not to of dodged bullets given the range, lack of space and lack of time to realize they weren't cops. But yeah that's kind of off-topic.
I see what your saying. All though I would be hesitant to use that as a bullet timing feat because it happened off panel.
Well, how good is Kaine's agility? I mean not to beat a dead horse, but Deadshot being able to tag Batman allows him to tag Kaine in a scenario where Deathstroke is also harassing Kaine, in my view.
He should have spider-like agility like Peter. He doesn't use it as much though. The first feat is just standard bullet dodging, all though the second feat he dances around the rangers using his agility. It doesn't look like much due to the art but I think it would take a fair amount of agility to dance around a super hero team (one of the members he is dodging is also shooting lightning out if thats worth anything):
Now it is difficult for them to put Kaine down given his pain tolerance, since he can probably eat a few bullets on the way in. But frankly I think against someone like Deadshot you don't want to risk taking any bullets, because out of ten rounds there's bound to a few in there where Kaine loses a kidney or something.
I agree. Kaines fighting style is more focused on being aggressive and overpowering than it does agility and avoidance like Peter, however he will be making an effort to dodge the bullets.
That's a fair point. Slade does have the advantage of range with his sword, though, and being bulletproof allows him to shrug off Floyd's stray bullets while he engages Kaine.
Well Kaine could possibly disarm the sword by either hitting the sides or grabbing the sides. Slades broad sword has varied in size in different drawings (sometimes its a big cloud strife like sword, sometimes its more normal). Also Kaine can extend his reach to using his suit:
Admittedly Damoes was only damaged due to the other but Kaine might be able to pierce the blue areas of Slades Nth metal armor. Its kind of varied there, sometimes a random lady with a handgun can pierce that area, sometimes it requires special technique. So I won't say this pierces Slade for certain but if it does Kaine could have the reach advantage.....
Easier said than done, to be fair. I think the speed of bullets is being underestimated a little bit here - anything Kaine does other than focus on dodging bullets, which includes trying to take a sword-wielding Slade as a shield, shooting webs, disarming people of guns ect, is an opportunity for Lawton to pop him a few times.
Well we already saw Kaine tackle a hand ninja, roll and than turn around and use him as a shield before bullets could hit him so I don't think the speed of a bullet is a problem. I think the major issue with that is Slades skill, he wont allow it so kaine basically needs to be quick if he does that, which I think he can be. As for Kaine doing other things he has a lot of showings against teams so I feel he has shown some great multi-tasking against the lobos, the assassins guild, and the rangers.
One important thing I forgot is that Kaine lacks prior knowledge whilst the duo have it - I'm sure Slade has the common sense not to engage Kaine in CQC if he can. So the duo trying to shoot him isn't off the cards IMO, they would play to their strengths instead of Kaine's.
Admittedly I did miss that :p. All though I am not sure if Slade keeping his distance is a good idea as that could force Kaine to use webbing which is something they don't have much counter for. I think they're better off if Slade can occupy Kaine up close where he will be punching, using stingers, and his suit.
It also depends on what kind of knowledge they have. I mean if all they know is kaine is a guy with spider-powers I don't think Slade will fight differently. If they know the extent of his abilities and things he has actually done with his abilities than it might be different.
Damn. I remembered a thread where someone (I almost want to say it was SuperSoldierXII) debunked the notion that webs are as fast as bullets, but that feat isn't really refutable at all.
Yea me and Supes debated the speed of Peters web shooters (I argued that Peters webbing was able to catch up to speed demons top speeds, Supes argued that Peter used spider-sense to anticipate speed demons aim, I disagree all though thats a different debate for another time). I don't believe supes has discussed the speed of kaines webbing. I thought about posting that scan but since that was done with the other powers as opposed to web shooters it wouldn't have applied.
Yeah, I just meant if he's tied up he can let his wrist-guns go off to shoot his hands free, and from there he can untangle himself. I'm not sure if the webbing stopped the bullet outright or if the gun exploded because of how crowded the barrel got. But yeah, webbing is a pretty effective tool in this fight as you've shown, more effective than I initially gave it credit for.
This is possible all though it could also destroy deadshots guns for similar reasons.
All of this sounds fair/agreeable to me.
The way I see it playing out, there will be scenarios where Kaine just gets caught in the wrong area and either dies from the injury, or is slowed down enough for Floyd and Slade to finish him, or, there will be scenarios where Kaine can avoid/tank the brunt of the gunfire and then do some damage up close, and as you said, bring out webbing in order to neutralize their weapons and stuff. The prior knowledge the duo have opposed to Kaine's lack of knowledge is the decider for me, though. For instance he won't know how hard he will need to hit Slade in order to keep him out of the fight for good, which could result in him being backstabbed, whereas the duo should have the common sense to utilise range as much as possible, and whatever other benefits they have from knowing about Kaine and how he fights.
Well in regards to kaine not knowing how hard to hit Deathstroke he has some loose morals. For a time he was trying to be a better hero in houston but I am not sure if he is still doing that given how it ended. Kaine isn't really against lethal force so I don't think he would hold back against deathstroke. HIs morals are similar to wolverines IMO. He won't kill other heroes and such, but if you try and kill him he will be willing to do the same. I agree knowledge does give the team an edge though. I still think kaine can take this.
Anyways great debate man, and it was fun to talk about Kaine again (I never get to do that anymore), all though I don't know if I will have much time to debate over Christmas so not sure if I will be able to get a response up.
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