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#1 Edited by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

Scarlet Spider # 1 (Bagley Variant)

                                                       VS

 

Rules

morals on
win by any means 
pre flash point slade
Deathstroke has standered gear (premethium blade, blast staff, automatic pistols)
Deathstroke has read a every issue of kaines current scarlet spider title
Kaine cannot use the features of the stealth suit
Deathstroke has had 3 hours to study kaine in addition to his reading above

Location

Both begin visible
Deathstroke starts at the blue dot Kaine at the red dot
fight takes place here: 

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#2 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine.

#3 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio
@BringnIt: Reason?
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#4 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (5219 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Kaine.
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#5 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio
@Andy Steven Summers: Why?
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#6 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine.

#7 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
The lack of knowledge and spider sense may very well cost to Kaine. His fighting style might be brutally effective, but does not do him any favors in terms of the times he gets hit during a fight, and against someone like Deathstroke that is already aware of his capabilities (forget the extensive prep stuff, most of the time simple knowledge has given Slade the edge in fights), that could prove fatal. I'd still give a small edge to Kaine, but the fight would be a joy to watch. It'd be bound to be bloody.
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#8 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_ said:

The lack of knowledge and spider sense may very well cost to Kaine. His fighting style might be brutally effective, but does not do him any favors in terms of the times he gets hit during a fight, and against someone like Deathstroke that is already aware of his capabilities (forget the extensive prep stuff, most of the time simple knowledge has given Slade the edge in fights), that could prove fatal. I'd still give a small edge to Kaine, but the fight would be a joy to watch. It'd be bound to be bloody.

Agreed.

#9 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine.

Although he hasn't got a spider-sense his reactions are insane not to mention he's physically superior to Slade in every aspect and has questionable morals so he isn't going to hold back. We still need more feats from Kaine to tell for sure though as he has only had 4 appearances as the Scarlet Spider.

#10 Posted by NEEK_03 (1200 posts) - - Show Bio

this is a good one. but im actually gonna have to say Kaine too. he is just too much for DS unless he has time to prep an area for the fight.

#11 Posted by Nefarious (19713 posts) - - Show Bio

Scarlet Spider wins.

#12 Posted by notquitevarsity (157 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine. He's vicious. Plus he outclasses Deathstroke in every physical way.

#13 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nefarious: Why? 
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#14 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@BringnIt: Reason?

He is on a whole other level physically and should have the combat speed, reflexes and durability to get in close.

#15 Posted by Nefarious (19713 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: He is faster and stronger. 
#16 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. Remember to provide reasoning.

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#17 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

My answer still hasn't changed.

Seeing how blood thirsty Kaine was in both his fights with Carnage and the fact that he is now using his stingers and acid touch in combat only reinforce what I originally thought. This fight would be like a morals off Spider-man Vs Slade which is a fight Deathstroke couldn't win anyway. Toss in the stingers and his burning touch and DS isn't coming close to a majority here.

#18 Posted by D3athstroke (3911 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke has faced faster and stronger and smarter too and won so he wins this too

#19 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@D3athstroke: When has New 52 DS faced anyone who is on par with Kaine in any of those stats?

#20 Edited by D3athstroke (3911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@D3athstroke: When has New 52 DS faced anyone who is on par with Kaine in any of those stats?

Lobo ? Hawkman ? and many more ?

#21 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@D3athstroke said:

@Strider92 said:

@D3athstroke: When has New 52 DS faced anyone who is on par with Kaine in any of those stats?

Lobo ? Hawkman ? and many more ?

He took out Lobo with a bomb. And Hawk-man isn't Physically as strong as Spider-Man or Kaine

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#22 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@D3athstroke: Lobo had been seriously downgraded in new 52 due to Liefelds appalling writing and as its his first appearance he is nigh featless. DS even managed to make him bleed by punching him and yet his only around a 5 tonner. Lobo's current incarnation due to the bad writing and lack of feats isn't that far above street level. Again Hawkman is only a 5-6tonner and although he is durable he does not come close to Kaine in speed, agility or strength.

DS has yet to face anyone over the 10ton range. Given his feats Kaine is 15tonner (possibly a 20tonner if he's the same as what Peter was with the other) is far faster than Ds, far more agile, has an acid touch, webbing and stingers. He was also able to stand up to Carnage in a random encounter twice:

Although going against Carnage isn't a fight Kaine would win he's still fighting a 50tonner who is far faster, far more durable, far more versatile and far more agile than Deathstroke. Deathstroke doesn't have the feats to put him on this level yet. This isn't Spider-man DS is fighting as you can see in the first panel Kaine is quite happy to go in and end the fight as quickly as possible by snapping his neck.

#23 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5019 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine all day everyday

#24 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: @D3athstroke: this is pre 52 slade.

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#25 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lone_Wolf_and_Cub said:

Kaine all day everyday

Reason?

@Strider92 said:

@D3athstroke: Lobo had been seriously downgraded in new 52 due to Liefelds appalling writing and as its his first appearance he is nigh featless. DS even managed to make him bleed by punching him and yet his only around a 5 tonner. Lobo's current incarnation due to the bad writing and lack of feats isn't that far above street level. Again Hawkman is only a 5-6tonner and although he is durable he does not come close to Kaine in speed, agility or strength.

DS has yet to face anyone over the 10ton range. Given his feats Kaine is 15tonner (possibly a 20tonner if he's the same as what Peter was with the other) is far faster than Ds, far more agile, has an acid touch, webbing and stingers. He was also able to stand up to Carnage in a random encounter twice:

Although going against Carnage isn't a fight Kaine would win he's still fighting a 50tonner who is far faster, far more durable, far more versatile and far more agile than Deathstroke. Deathstroke doesn't have the feats to put him on this level yet. This isn't Spider-man DS is fighting as you can see in the first panel Kaine is quite happy to go in and end the fight as quickly as possible by snapping his neck.

I don't think Kaine actually did anything to carnage in any of those fights.

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#26 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: If you reread me, what I said was Carnage isn't a fight Kaine can win. However he showed in it that he can keep up with someone who vastly outclasses himself and Slade in every aspect. If he can keep up with someone vastly superior to Slade it stands to reason he has a good chance of beating him as he is a lot inferior.

Pre-52 makes it even worse for Slade imo. No Nth armor for extra durability and worse stats.

#27 Posted by The_Peter_Cosmic (401 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO Kaine>Slade, but with the prep advantage and lack of spider-sense I think Deathstroke would be able to take out the spider.

#28 Posted by The_Peter_Cosmic (401 posts) - - Show Bio

Never mind I just saw that the OP said they start visibly. Kaine takes this.

#29 Edited by ChaosMarvel (997 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine wins here. Slade while very clever isn't really superhuman in his Pre-52 form and shouldn't really be able to take out a mid-tier superhuman without preparation. With prep Slade can hang well above that range but in a random encounter I wouldn't put Pre-52 Slade much above Black Panther who is also a good fighter who relies on prep to beat superior foes but in a random encounter they don't have much of a shot at taking out someone with Kaine's combined skillset. Allowing prep Slade would win but without it Kaine has the speed and strength to tear him to bits without a lot of hassle.

#30 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@jashro44: If you reread me, what I said was Carnage isn't a fight Kaine can win. However he showed in it that he can keep up with someone who vastly outclasses himself and Slade in every aspect. If he can keep up with someone vastly superior to Slade it stands to reason he has a good chance of beating him as he is a lot inferior.

Pre-52 makes it even worse for Slade imo. No Nth armor for extra durability and worse stats.

Carnage was toying with Kaine in both encounters. Also there are quite a few differences between deathstroke and carnage. Deathstroke is a skilled fighter and is also more tactical than carnage.

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#31 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: True but no amount of tactics would help someone with an inferior stat difference that great win. For example if there's a bullet flying towards and you know exactly how fast its going, where its going to hit and where to go to dodge it the whole plan is completely irrelevant if you don't have the raw speed required to avoid it. Tactics can only get you so far.

Also while I agree Carnage was not fighting Kaine to kill him outright (if he was he would slaughter Kaine) I don't think he was toying with him as such.

#32 Posted by InfinityAce (110 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92 said:

@jashro44: If you reread me, what I said was Carnage isn't a fight Kaine can win. However he showed in it that he can keep up with someone who vastly outclasses himself and Slade in every aspect. If he can keep up with someone vastly superior to Slade it stands to reason he has a good chance of beating him as he is a lot inferior.

Pre-52 makes it even worse for Slade imo. No Nth armor for extra durability and worse stats.

Carnage was toying with Kaine in both encounters. Also there are quite a few differences between deathstroke and carnage. Deathstroke is a skilled fighter and is also more tactical than carnage.

Carnage was still trying to kill him. Is there ever a time when carnage is seriously trying to kill someone? Besides even if carnage was holding back, which i'm sure he wasn't half of his strength is still a lot more than kaine. Being tactical helps when your close to someone's strength even if you aren't fully there. In this case unless he uses prep kaine outmatches him physically. Besides kaine would not hold back and try to end this quickly. Kaine 8/10

#33 Edited by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@jashro44: True but no amount of tactics would help someone with an inferior stat difference that great win. For example if there's a bullet flying towards and you know exactly how fast its going, where its going to hit and where to go to dodge it the whole plan is completely irrelevant if you don't have the raw speed required to avoid it. Tactics can only get you so far.

Also while I agree Carnage was not fighting Kaine to kill him outright (if he was he would slaughter Kaine) I don't think he was toying with him as such.

There is a difference between the scenario of using tactics to dodge a bullet and using tactics to get in someones head to throw them off. i think he was toying with him in there second fight. He laughs off kaines hits and begs kaine for more.

@InfinityAce:

Carnage was still trying to kill him. Is there ever a time when carnage is seriously trying to kill someone? Besides even if carnage was holding back, which i'm sure he wasn't half of his strength is still a lot more than kaine. Being tactical helps when your close to someone's strength even if you aren't fully there. In this case unless he uses prep kaine outmatches him physically. Besides kaine would not hold back and try to end this quickly. Kaine 8/10

There first fight Kaine punches carnage by surprise, snaps his neck, and impales kaine with tendrils, which kaine cuts loose of. its pretty brief but kaine doesn't actually do anything to carnage. There second fight as mentioned above carnage lets kaine unload on him after a bit and begs him for more. Kaine survived but he didn't do much else.

If we are going to say carnage has stats beyond that of deathstrokes i could easily bring the teen titans card where slade takes on an entire team. Cassandra cain was poisoned granted (which may have hindered her) but besides that slade was taking them all on

I am not saying deathstroke wins I just don't agree kaines showings with carnage proves he wins.

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#34 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

If we are going to say carnage has stats beyond that of deathstrokes i could easily bring the teen titans card where slade takes on an entire team.

You're not trying to argue that DS can compete with Carnage in stats are you? -.o

@jashro44 said:

This seems very fishy to me. There are multiple characters here who are so much faster than Slade its not even funny. Looks a little like PIS or CIS on the attackers part.

#35 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

You're not trying to argue that DS can compete with Carnage in stats are you? -.o

No of course not.What I am trying to say is that if we are going to say kaine has survived a fight with carnage therefore he beats slade with ease, I could easily say that slade has fought the teen titans so therefore he beats kaine as donna troy + others>carnage>kaine.

This seems very fishy to me. There are multiple characters here who are so much faster than Slade its not even funny. Looks a little like PIS or CIS on the attackers part.

Well yes but the same could be said for kaine fighting carnage.

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#36 Posted by 18hunt (2903 posts) - - Show Bio

Thank you my friend showed me a comic where he was fighting I think Supes, and he stuck his prometium sword in Supes and just wathed supes fall FAR! DS wins.

#37 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@18hunt: The promethium blade was broken by lex luthor. Deathstroke could never hurt superman.

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#38 Posted by InfinityAce (110 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92:

You're not trying to argue that DS can compete with Carnage in stats are you? -.o

No of course not.What I am trying to say is that if we are going to say kaine has survived a fight with carnage therefore he beats slade with ease, I could easily say that slade has fought the teen titans so therefore he beats kaine as donna troy + others>carnage>kaine.

This seems very fishy to me. There are multiple characters here who are so much faster than Slade its not even funny. Looks a little like PIS or CIS on the attackers part.

Well yes but the same could be said for kaine fighting carnage.

Not to be a jerk but, Kaine didn't use PIS or anything. It's not like be beat carnage. You yourself said it doesn't seem like kaine hurt carnage. Quick question for everybody since kaine is petes clone can i use petes feats for kaine or would that not be fair since kaine and spidey have Diffrences in there fighting styles?

#39 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92:

This seems very fishy to me. There are multiple characters here who are so much faster than Slade its not even funny. Looks a little like PIS or CIS on the attackers part.

Well yes but the same could be said for kaine fighting carnage.

Not really as I said Carnage wasn't fighting all out if he was he would murder Kaine. Its in character for Carnage not to go all out anyway. His MO is to fight like that yet Kaine still survived far longer than Spider-man (and to a lesser extent Venom) has in the past. Its not PIS simply because of the fact this is how Carnage chooses to fight. If he was bloodlusted and wanted to finish the fight as quickly as he could Cletus would but it isn't in-character for him to do so.

Considering this is how in-character Carnage fights nearly all his battles it is a good feat for Kaine to put up such a tussle considering the trouble Carnage has given other more physically imposing characters in the past.

#40 Edited by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: @The_Peter_Cosmic: @Lone_Wolf_and_Cub:

Green Lantern got his ass pawned by the terminating terminator of all terminators.

#41 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92:

This seems very fishy to me. There are multiple characters here who are so much faster than Slade its not even funny. Looks a little like PIS or CIS on the attackers part.

Well yes but the same could be said for kaine fighting carnage.

Not really as I said Carnage wasn't fighting all out if he was he would murder Kaine. Its in character for Carnage not to go all out anyway. His MO is to fight like that yet Kaine still survived far longer than Spider-man (and to a lesser extent Venom) has in the past. Its not PIS simply because of the fact this is how Carnage chooses to fight. If he was bloodlusted and wanted to finish the fight as quickly as he could Cletus would but it isn't in-character for him to do so.

Considering this is how in-character Carnage fights nearly all his battles it is a good feat for Kaine to put up such a tussle considering the trouble Carnage has given other more physically imposing characters in the past.

Carnage not fighting all out would be cis. And you yourself are saying that if carnage wanted to end the battle at any point it would be over, correct? If carnage wanted to kill Kaine and the plot didn't ask kaine to be alive kaine would be dead. Deathstroke did well in his fight for pretty much the same reason. The titans held back.

@InfinityAce:

Not to be a jerk but, Kaine didn't use PIS or anything. It's not like be beat carnage. You yourself said it doesn't seem like kaine hurt carnage. Quick question for everybody since kaine is petes clone can i use petes feats for kaine or would that not be fair since kaine and spidey have Diffrences in there fighting styles?

Your not a jerk so don't worry about it. If carnage wanted to stomp kaine he would have. That is my point. And IMO no you cannot use Peters feats for kaine as they are 2 different characters with 2 different powers.

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#42 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92 said:

Carnage not fighting all out would be cis. And you yourself are saying that if carnage wanted to end the battle at any point it would be over, correct? If carnage wanted to kill Kaine and the plot didn't ask kaine to be alive kaine would be dead.

No. Carnage fighting all out would be out of character. Can you think of one time Carnage has ever gone into a fight thinking "i want to slaughter this guy asap" to my knowlege he's never done that (or if he has it must be on very rare occasions). There was no CIS or PIS in that fight because it would be out of character for Carnage to want to slaughter someone as quickly as he can. He draws out the fight because he likes it. He's done this to Venom, Spider-man and multiple other characters.

Kaine was not saved by the plot because Carnage was acting in character. Getting saved by the plot would infer that Carnage wanted nothing more than to kill Kaine as quickly as possible and Kaine still managed to survive, that would be PIS/CIS.

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92 said:

Deathstroke did well in his fight for pretty much the same reason. The titans held back.

Even if the Titan's were holding back in a random encounter multiple people of Miss Martians, Flash's etc... powerlevels shouldn't have any trouble subduing him. They weren't jerking around with Slade they were trying to win and with their abilities there is no credible reason why they shouldn't do it easily (i'm talking in a random encounter here with prep it would be a different story).

#43 Posted by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

#44 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@matmatxm8 said:

@Strider92:

That whole fight is considered to be PIS for most rational people. If you honestly think Slade stands even a remote chance of tagging Flash or overpowering Green Lantern then I won't try to convince you other wise.

#45 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92 said:

Carnage not fighting all out would be cis. And you yourself are saying that if carnage wanted to end the battle at any point it would be over, correct? If carnage wanted to kill Kaine and the plot didn't ask kaine to be alive kaine would be dead.

No. Carnage fighting all out would be out of character. Can you think of one time Carnage has ever gone into a fight thinking "i want to slaughter this guy asap" to my knowlege he's never done that (or if he has it must be on very rare occasions). There was no CIS or PIS in that fight because it would be out of character for Carnage to want to slaughter someone as quickly as he can. He draws out the fight because he likes it. He's done this to Venom, Spider-man and multiple other characters.

Kaine was not saved by the plot because Carnage was acting in character. Getting saved by the plot would infer that Carnage wanted nothing more than to kill Kaine as quickly as possible and Kaine still managed to survive, that would be PIS/CIS.

@jashro44 said:

@Strider92 said:

Deathstroke did well in his fight for pretty much the same reason. The titans held back.

Even if the Titan's were holding back in a random encounter multiple people of Miss Martians, Flash's etc... powerlevels shouldn't have any trouble subduing him. They weren't jerking around with Slade they were trying to win and with their abilities there is no credible reason why they shouldn't do it easily (i'm talking in a random encounter here with prep it would be a different story).

During maximum carnage he beat doppelganger quickly in part 12 of maximum carnage. And Carnage not wanting to kill people quickly is cis. CIS is character induced stupidity which is stuff like supermans morals. If carnage wanted to kill kaine he would be dead. And flash, miss martian, and those other people didn't really do anyhting. They got blasted by cyborgs cannon before they attempted to stop him.

The point is you can't compare carnage to deathstroke and saying kaine survived a fight with carnage (which was really only due to cis) does not mean he will beat deathstroke.

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#46 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

During maximum carnage he beat doppelganger quickly in part 12 of maximum carnage. And Carnage not wanting to kill people quickly is cis. CIS is character induced stupidity which is stuff like supermans morals. If carnage wanted to kill kaine he would be dead.

Again i'm not arguing that Carnage not killing people is CIS (because it is) what i'm arguing is that its not CIS for him to fight people and not want to kill the instantly. Cletus is a sadist and psycho killing people outright is no fun for him. Thus he draws his fights out and I agree if Carnage wanted to slaughter Kaine asap he could but that is out of-character for him.

#47 Posted by gumflabica (2226 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke wins. Reasons: he slaps around people who outclass kaine SEVERELY @D3athstroke said:

@Strider92 said:

@D3athstroke: When has New 52 DS faced anyone who is on par with Kaine in any of those stats?

Lobo ? Hawkman ? and many more ?

those are just SOME examples! this dude is nuts! he is the LAST guy i would want to have on my bad side.

#48 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@jashro44 said:

During maximum carnage he beat doppelganger quickly in part 12 of maximum carnage. And Carnage not wanting to kill people quickly is cis. CIS is character induced stupidity which is stuff like supermans morals. If carnage wanted to kill kaine he would be dead.

Again i'm not arguing that Carnage not killing people is CIS (because it is) what i'm arguing is that its not CIS for him to fight people and not want to kill the instantly. Cletus is a sadist and psycho killing people outright is no fun for him. Thus he draws his fights out and I agree if Carnage wanted to slaughter Kaine asap he could but that is out of-character for him.

I can agree with that but the point is that carnage isn't really comparable to death stroke. There 2 different characters and operate in 2 different ways.

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#49 Posted by Z3RO180 (6458 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: what does CIS mean ?

#50 Posted by jashro44 (20793 posts) - - Show Bio

@gumflabica said:

Deathstroke wins. Reasons: he slaps around people who outclass kaine SEVERELY @D3athstroke said:

@Strider92 said:

@D3athstroke: When has New 52 DS faced anyone who is on par with Kaine in any of those stats?

Lobo ? Hawkman ? and many more ?

those are just SOME examples! this dude is nuts! he is the LAST guy i would want to have on my bad side.

This is meant to be pre 52 death stroke and kaine would beat hawk man.

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