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#1 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

VS

Rules

Morals are on

win by any means

Black panther is pre doom war and has his gear from priests runs

Black panther has basic knowledge of kaine and has read every issue so far of scarlet spider

Kaine cannot use his stealth suit

Black panther gets 3 hours of prep (scout the location, think of a strategy, etc)

Location

Both begin visible

begin 50 feat apart

fight takes place here:

#2 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine should win this. While he can probably eventually bypass the suit, he can easily incapacitate him via webbing.

#3 Edited by KraytRawk (628 posts) - - Show Bio

The suit will be tough to get through, but I'll still put my money on Kaine..

#4 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine is too much for BP.

#5 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod said:

Kaine is too much for BP.

Why? I would like to point out we are using current kaine and not clone saga kaine.

@BringnIt said:

Kaine should win this. While he can probably eventually bypass the suit, he can easily incapacitate him via webbing.

Would you say that incapacitation is in character for kaine?

@KraytRawk said:

The suit will be tough to get through, but I'll still put my money on Kaine..

Why do you believe kaine wins?

#6 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@KraytRawk said:

The suit will be tough to get through, but I'll still put my money on Kaine..

#7 Posted by theicon (1797 posts) - - Show Bio

black panther

#8 Posted by KraytRawk (628 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod said:

Kaine is too much for BP.

Why? I would like to point out we are using current kaine and not clone saga kaine.

@BringnIt said:

Kaine should win this. While he can probably eventually bypass the suit, he can easily incapacitate him via webbing.

Would you say that incapacitation is in character for kaine?

@KraytRawk said:

The suit will be tough to get through, but I'll still put my money on Kaine..

Why do you believe kaine wins?

Kaine is stronger, more agile. While BP has the experience and cool tech, i think Kaine is just too strong and fast for him. Along with his web, Kaines got this.

#9 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 I think he's webbed up some random hoods, but if he was pounding on the suit with no discernible damage he's intelligent enough to do what it takes. He's not particularly prideful like someone like Thor, so a W is a W for him.

#10 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: Why do you think Kaine wins?

@theicon: Why do you believe black panther wins?

#11 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod said:

Kaine is too much for BP.

Why? I would like to point out we are using current kaine and not clone saga kaine.

Understood, but so far, the only thing he doesn't seem to have that he used to is his precog. He still has his Mark of Kaine, which he won't use to kill BP now, but may be able to use to get through the suit. He's still far superior in every physical way, has a hf, etc.... Even if he just jumps around avoiding claws, he'll wear BP out and win. He'll have trouble getting through the suit, but should be able to eventually, either with enough repeated blows, some creative tosses upward (he should be able to throw BP a few hundred feet straight up), or he can use just his touch. Not to mention webbing, using his strength to immobilize BP and webbing his face for a suffocation KO. Hell, in the environment they're in, he should be able to find water nearby and could hold BP under until he is KO'ed. BP has a chance of course, but a small one IMO.

#12 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm divided on this one. They each have their own advantages in this fight. I think that BP's three hour prep time might be the deciding factor in this... he manages to pull out a win, but not easily.

#13 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

When has he used the Mark of Kaine? His powers are more similar to the Other than his classic self.

#14 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod: I still don't think he is at his clone saga levels. He was depowered when he fell into the batch of anti-venom goop. There isn't really much to say he is still at that level imo. He is pretty impressive from what we have seen however. I don't think Kaine is going to resort to suffocation to win. He is a little iffy on his morals (like recently he saved ana kravenoff after she tried to kill him) I personally don't believe Kaine is going to resort to such brutal tactics. The mark of kaine might work I suppose. But don't forget that Kaine doesn't know about the suit so he will be trying to punch black panther out at first (as that seems to be kaines main way to attack).

#15 Posted by Blacklightning13 (916 posts) - - Show Bio

Brilliant fight. I say Kaine takes it in a good fight.

#16 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

When has he used the Mark of Kaine? His powers are more similar to the Other than his classic self.

I think he used it against that one pyrokentic he fought (the page where he got burned).

#17 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blacklightning13: Why do you think kaine wins?

#18 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 Who remembers back that far? Lol. I'll have to re-read it.

#19 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: lol well I do reread some of the issues because I believe its marvels best title right now. But yea he had some weird scratch on his cheek when kaine touched him that was glowing.

#20 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 It's in my top 3 with ASM and Journey Into Mystery, but I have so many other classic comics I am trying to read that I rarely re-read issues. I do think I recall the scene now that it's been brought to my attention.

#21 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod: I still don't think he is at his clone saga levels. He was depowered when he fell into the batch of anti-venom goop. There isn't really much to say he is still at that level imo. He is pretty impressive from what we have seen however. I don't think Kaine is going to resort to suffocation to win. He is a little iffy on his morals (like recently he saved ana kravenoff after she tried to kill him) I personally don't believe Kaine is going to resort to such brutal tactics. The mark of kaine might work I suppose. But don't forget that Kaine doesn't know about the suit so he will be trying to punch black panther out at first (as that seems to be kaines main way to attack).

He may have been depowered some, but probably just to keep him at the same ratio to what he was with Spidey. So that still makes him a 15-20 ton character. And he still has his abilities except precog, and he seems more agile now. And he's still a supergenius, probably in the same range as T'challa. Kaine may not resort to suffocation, and he doesn't know much about BP, but with his questionable morality and quick temper, it won't be long until he gets frustrated and starts thinking outside the box. I just don't see much chance for BP unless he has prep.

#22 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod: I agree kaine has some impressive feats and he may very well be in the 15-20 ton range however I still don't think clone saga feats are applicable. I also disagree Kaine is as smart as black panther, the guy is rated as one of the 8 smartest people on marvel earth iirc.

#23 Posted by Pwok21 (2380 posts) - - Show Bio

Whilst T'Challa is the better martial artist Kaine is faster, stronger and has a more diverse power set. Black Panther reading the issues of Scarlet Spider will just make him realise how boned he is after seeing how brutal Kaine is. There is also the fact that Kaine has no morals (see #5 of SS) with him willing to torture and kill for the better of others / the win.

#24 Posted by darktiger (4539 posts) - - Show Bio

I think black Panther will win then wins kaine gets more experienced he takes it

#25 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pwok21 said:

Whilst T'Challa is the better martial artist Kaine is faster, stronger and has a more diverse power set. Black Panther reading the issues of Scarlet Spider will just make him realise how boned he is after seeing how brutal Kaine is. There is also the fact that Kaine has no morals (see #5 of SS) with him willing to torture and kill for the better of others / the win.

He also decided to save ana kravenoff...He isn't going to brutally beat black panther he does have morals.

@darktiger said:

I think black Panther will win then wins kaine gets more experienced he takes it

Why do you think black panther will win?

#26 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod: I still don't think he is at his clone saga levels. He was depowered when he fell into the batch of anti-venom goop. There isn't really much to say he is still at that level imo. He is pretty impressive from what we have seen however. I don't think Kaine is going to resort to suffocation to win. He is a little iffy on his morals (like recently he saved ana kravenoff after she tried to kill him) I personally don't believe Kaine is going to resort to such brutal tactics. The mark of kaine might work I suppose. But don't forget that Kaine doesn't know about the suit so he will be trying to punch black panther out at first (as that seems to be kaines main way to attack).

I do not know if calling it depowered is accurate. He was perfected. He might not be at his classic levels of strength but I do not think Parker was after the Other either. I doubt Kaine even has his mark of move anymore though. The indication is that he has the Other powers sans the spider sense.

#27 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod: I still don't think he is at his clone saga levels. He was depowered when he fell into the batch of anti-venom goop. There isn't really much to say he is still at that level imo. He is pretty impressive from what we have seen however. I don't think Kaine is going to resort to suffocation to win. He is a little iffy on his morals (like recently he saved ana kravenoff after she tried to kill him) I personally don't believe Kaine is going to resort to such brutal tactics. The mark of kaine might work I suppose. But don't forget that Kaine doesn't know about the suit so he will be trying to punch black panther out at first (as that seems to be kaines main way to attack).

I do not know if calling it depowered is accurate. He was perfected. He might not be at his classic levels of strength but I do not think Parker was after the Other either. I doubt Kaine even has his mark of move anymore though. The indication is that he has the Other powers sans the spider sense.

In issue 4 didnt he use it in the beginning portion of the issue when it was showing his time in Michigan or Detroit? He did have the scar on his face so that could be a indicator of how much time passed from then to current time

#28 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod: I still don't think he is at his clone saga levels. He was depowered when he fell into the batch of anti-venom goop. There isn't really much to say he is still at that level imo. He is pretty impressive from what we have seen however. I don't think Kaine is going to resort to suffocation to win. He is a little iffy on his morals (like recently he saved ana kravenoff after she tried to kill him) I personally don't believe Kaine is going to resort to such brutal tactics. The mark of kaine might work I suppose. But don't forget that Kaine doesn't know about the suit so he will be trying to punch black panther out at first (as that seems to be kaines main way to attack).

I do not know if calling it depowered is accurate. He was perfected. He might not be at his classic levels of strength but I do not think Parker was after the Other either. I doubt Kaine even has his mark of move anymore though. The indication is that he has the Other powers sans the spider sense.

Personally I don't believe he has spider-mans other powers. I haven't really seen a source to confirm this. As for Kaine using the mark of kaine he seems to still have it. He used it to shave and he also scarred the pyrokentic he was fighting as well.

#29 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod: I agree kaine has some impressive feats and he may very well be in the 15-20 ton range however I still don't think clone saga feats are applicable. I also disagree Kaine is as smart as black panther, the guy is rated as one of the 8 smartest people on marvel earth iirc.

Kaine's intellect is the same as Parker's which has been stated as IQ 250 and 270 on panel in 616. I'll try to find scans for you. That makes him equal to Tony Starke. IQ-wise, that's above BP I believe, though he isn't there yet in feats, hence the reason Pete's usually not ranked in the top ten, though the writers seem to be trying to change that.

@jashro44 said:

Personally I don't believe he has spider-mans other powers. I haven't really seen a source to confirm this. As for Kaine using the mark of kaine he seems to still have it. He used it to shave and he also scarred the pyrokentic he was fighting as well.

He has the organic webs. I've only been reading sporadically, but I heard he has the claws too. That would imply to me that he does. You're probably more caught up than I though.

@jashro44 said:

He also decided to save ana kravenoff...He isn't going to brutally beat black panther he does have morals.

Kaine has some morals now, but they're pretty loose yet. He may very well brutally beat BP. He'll just stop before he kills kill him now. Besides, it won't take long before he figures out he can throw full force punches without hurting him. Though the Ana thing is a pretty big turning point for him.

@Erik said:

I do not know if calling it depowered is accurate. He was perfected. He might not be at his classic levels of strength but I do not think Parker was after the Other either. I doubt Kaine even has his mark of move anymore though. The indication is that he has the Other powers sans the spider sense.

He still has his mark, but I can agree with the rest of this. I believe he's still a fair way above Pete in strength yet though, which is why I went with the 15-20 ton range. What's your opinion on the battle.

#30 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod: No need for the scan I am familiar with it however I think black panther has better feats...Dude beat mephisto with prep and has a plan for galactus which he briefly used on silver surfer. I don't think spider-man can match black panther in feats in the intellect department. And Kaine does have stingers and organic webbing that much is true. Kaines morals seem to be a bit iffy...He is trying to be a hero but he is pretty brutal. I think he would have a tighter grip on those morals though fighting another hero.

#31 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@yodagod: No need for the scan I am familiar with it however I think black panther has better feats...Dude beat mephisto with prep and has a plan for galactus which he briefly used on silver surfer. I don't think spider-man can match black panther in feats in the intellect department. And Kaine does have stingers and organic webbing that much is true. Kaines morals seem to be a bit iffy...He is trying to be a hero but he is pretty brutal. I think he would have a tighter grip on those morals though fighting another hero.

Totally agree.

#32 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 What were the circumstances of Panther beating Mephisto with prep and his gameplan against Galactus?

#33 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: Well we haven't really seen him use the plan on galactus but he did use it on the surfer. It does involve tech and he said it was based off of dooms design.

#34 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Personally I don't believe he has spider-mans other powers. I haven't really seen a source to confirm this. As for Kaine using the mark of kaine he seems to still have it. He used it to shave and he also scarred the pyrokentic he was fighting as well.

Hmmm.... Must have forgotten that but to me, it does not seem like the Mark of Kaine so much as some scratching ability. The Mark was not a cut. As for the Other powers, he has displayed a lot of them already. Talking to spiders, the stingers, organic webs and I am pretty sure night vision but I cannot be sure on that last one due to the tech in the spider suit.

#35 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod:

I am uncertain if Tony's intellect has ever been stated. We know that Parker is smarter than Doc Ock though.

#36 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: The first one might be a scratching power but in the scan where he is shaving it looks like he is burning his hair off and all he looks like he is doing is putting his hand over his hair he doesn't look like he is scratching to me. He seems to have powers similar to the other but I don't know if thats his exact level (it could be but I haven't really seen anything to confirm it). He does have some pretty impressive feats however I would say he is at least equal to spider-man physically.

#37 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod said:

He'll have trouble getting through the suit, but should be able to eventually, either with enough repeated blows

@BringnIt said:

Kaine should win this. While he can probably eventually bypass the suit, he can easily incapacitate him via webbing.

He's not strong enough to bypass the suit with physical attacks. Grappling (chokeholds and submissions) would work, regardless of strength, though.

#38 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Erik: The first one might be a scratching power but in the scan where he is shaving it looks like he is burning his hair off and all he looks like he is doing is putting his hand over his hair he doesn't look like he is scratching to me. He seems to have powers similar to the other but I don't know if thats his exact level (it could be but I haven't really seen anything to confirm it). He does have some pretty impressive feats however I would say he is at least equal to spider-man physically.

I would be willing to agree that he is physically Spider-Man's equal until evidence is provided. But it seems to me that they want us to believe he does have Other powers. The shaving thing does seem like he is using the Mark, so I am willing to accept that as well.

#39 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@yodagod:

I am uncertain if Tony's intellect has ever been stated. We know that Parker is smarter than Doc Ock though.

I remember seeing Tony's, but I don't remember if it was 616. Reed's IQ also falls around 270 in at least a few alternate universes, but I don't think it was ever mentioned in 616. It does support everyone saying that Pete had the same test scores as Reed and Tony in school though.

#40 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

He's not strong enough to bypass the suit with physical attacks. Grappling (chokeholds and submissions) would work, regardless of strength, though.

You sir, must not have read the most recent Amazing Spider-Man issue. Spider-Man broke foot thick carbonadium Doc Ock arms using only his strength and no leverage sucka!

#41 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod said:

Kaine's intellect is the same as Parker's which has been stated as IQ 250 and 270 on panel in 616. I'll try to find scans for you. That makes him equal to Tony Starke. IQ-wise, that's above BP I believe.

Black Panther's IQ has never been stated, so how can you come to this conclusion? Black Panther is the 8th smartest man in the world. Neither Peter nor Kaine are on the list.

#42 Edited by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@yodagod said:

@Erik said:

@yodagod:

I am uncertain if Tony's intellect has ever been stated. We know that Parker is smarter than Doc Ock though.

I remember seeing Tony's, but I don't remember if it was 616. Reed's IQ also falls around 270 in at least a few alternate universes, but I don't think it was ever mentioned in 616. It does support everyone saying that Pete had the same test scores as Reed and Tony in school though.

I disagree. While I do believe Parker is a genius that is capable of crazy things, I do not see him on Tony or Reed's level. There is no way to even accurately measure the intellect of those two guys based on feats alone but if it was measured in the 616 universe, I sure would like to take a peek at that. I do know that with the new repulsor battery, Tony was got an additional 20 IQ points or so.

#43 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: I will ask yost about it and get back to you when he gives me an answer.

#44 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Erik: I will ask yost about it and get back to you when he gives me an answer.

An answer on what? We seem to have come to an agreement on the Other powers and the Mark ability.

#45 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: It took the repeated force of a freight train (Iron Fist's Chi punches) to get through the suit and severely hurt T'Challa. Bazinga!

#46 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik:My mistake.

#47 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Erik: I will ask yost about it and get back to you when he gives me an answer.

You can talk to Christopher Yost!? Where!?

#48 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

@Erik: It took the repeated force of a freight train (Iron Fist's Chi punches) to get through the suit and severely hurt T'Challa. Bazinga!

Kaine can rip it off with his carbonadium busting strength!

#49 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock: He has a twitter account.

#50 Posted by Erik (32787 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Static Shock: He has a twitter account.

Ask him if Kaine has the speed and strength of the Other powers.