#1 Edited by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

Scarlet Spider (Kaine) and X-23:

Vs

Superior Spider-man and Wolverine:

Conditions:

  • Wolverine is Bone Claw version
  • X-23 is bloodlusted everyone else has standard morals
  • Standard Gear
  • No Prep
  • Random Encounter
  • Win by KO, Death or Incap

Location:

#2 Posted by laflux (17519 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

Nice match up.

Even Bloodlusted and without his Adamantuim Skeleton, I would still favor old muttonchops. Bone Claw Logan relies on skill alot more, and him not having Adamantuim would actually boost his healing factor to around X-23 level. And its not like not having Adamantium claws is much of disadvantage. While he may not be able to directly parry her own claws, he still is perfectly able to cut her with his bone ones.

As for Superior Spider-Man vs Scarlet Spider, I would go for Kaine. SpOck loses his Spider-Sense against fellow Spiders anyway, and he doesn't have perfect synergy with his body, nor fully utilize his Peter's skills or memories. Yes, he's willing to kill, but so is Kaine, and his laxed morals won't mean much when he fighting someone who shares his mindset, is at least his physical equal (Kaine by logic should be considerably physically stronger, but his feats don't really suggest a big gap), but also has stingers and a greater supply of webbing to bring to the table.

IMHO, I think it comes down to whether Logan or Kaine can beat their respective opponents first and give backup to their teammates. And that is open to debate.

However, from a fan-boy viewpoint, Logan and SpOck. I gained a new respect for Wolverine defending Spider-Man, and even after he got the old face plant of doom. He does care after all ^.^

#3 Posted by henrik (562 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 has a bigger chance .

Scarlet Spider can beat superior Spider-man , and X-23 can beat Wolverine . (Just because he doesnt have his adamantium claws . )

X-23 is bloodlusted , and that makes her stronger .

#4 Posted by drago666 (174 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I would have to side with team 2. Spock and Kaine are pretty evenly matched however wolverine is more skilled then X-23. Kaine is going to get gained up on.

#5 Posted by laflux (17519 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#6 Edited by Shawnbaby (10868 posts) - - Show Bio

I can see how, right now, it could be written that X-23 and Kaine would win here.

I can picture Logan holding back against X-23...tormented by images of killing Daken and not wanting to risk the same thing happening to Laura. And I can see Otto dismissing Kaine as being inferior to Parker and thus even more inferior to Himself. Kaine is actually Stronger than Otto and, being a clone of Spider-Man, won't set off Ott's Spider-Sense...thereby neutralizing his greatest advantage.

There's also an interesting grudge match to be had here...since Classic Kaine "killed" Otto once...and if Kaine were to discover that the Superior Spider-Man is actually Otto Octavious in Peter's body...well...he wouldn't take too kindly to that.

#7 Edited by New_World_Order (13516 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#8 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

i think team 1 has the overall advantage here. i see kaine beating otto because it will disable his spider sense. and x-23 and logan is pretty evenly matched

#9 Posted by Bossmoss4l (242 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing i really want to bring up is Kaine's ascension to The Other which we still don't know much about. If Kaine has access to his Other skillset, he ripped off a werewolf's arm, flesh and all, and if this DOES end up coming down to a Kaine vs. Wolverine battle, i don't see Wolverine healing fast enough as a monster beats him to death with a leg.

#10 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio


There's also an interesting grudge match to be had here...since Classic Kaine "killed" Otto once...and if Kaine were to discover that the Superior Spider-Man is actually Otto Octavious in Peter's body...well...he wouldn't take too kindly to that.

This is why I want to see Scarlet Vs Superior happen in the comics!

#11 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Kaine would beat Otto.

Current Kaine is scary.

#12 Posted by Shawnbaby (10868 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

There's also an interesting grudge match to be had here...since Classic Kaine "killed" Otto once...and if Kaine were to discover that the Superior Spider-Man is actually Otto Octavious in Peter's body...well...he wouldn't take too kindly to that.

This is why I want to see Scarlet Vs Superior happen in the comics!

Inorite?!

#13 Posted by Mortium (666 posts) - - Show Bio

I would tend to favor Team 1. I think that Shaunbaby was right that Logan would hold back against X-23, and I think that Kaine would beat SpOck fairly quickly, being used to fighting other spider-powered people.

#14 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: It could happen considering Yost is writing Scarlet Spider and was also the co-writer of X-23. He knows both characters well enough to do a team-up.

#15 Edited by laflux (17519 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: It could happen considering Yost is writing Scarlet Spider and was also the co-writer of X-23. He knows both characters well enough to do a team-up.

I have no idea why this just entered my head, but do you remember when the X-23 fans started complaining because they thought the skint trailer a few months back was going to be X-23 solo title.

Oh and posting first in a thread and then bumping it, gives you a mod given right to derail it with :P

right @god_spawn

#16 Posted by henrik (562 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry , I meant team 1 .

(For the same reasons , of course . )

#17 Posted by Shawnbaby (10868 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: It could happen considering Yost is writing Scarlet Spider and was also the co-writer of X-23. He knows both characters well enough to do a team-up.

It could...the way things are falling into place right now though its more likely that it would the other 3 against Otto. Maybe Kaine would start on Otto's side....but it shouldn't take him long to figure out Otto is not Peter.

#18 Edited by Deranged Midget (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

Not too well versed in terms of X-23 but I will comment on what I am knowledgeable and what may turn the tide of battle. In terms of SpOck vs Kaine, there shouldn't be much of a physical difference at all, besides the fact that Kaine has organic webbing. They both share the same low level of morality and are both willing to kill without second guessing themselves. Kaine's brutality no longer would make a difference here as SpOck fights very similarly as seen against the "new" Sinister Six and recently against Jester.

Neither of them will be willing to hold back but I feel as if Kaine has a better pain threshold. SpOck seems to back off whenever he becomes outmatched to recuperate and think of a plan and depends largely on his spider-sense rather than the skills he has and constantly ignores his bodies instincts. Kaine's camo ability might come in handy here, but I'm pretty sure Ock's lenses would be able to pick up his heat signature, rendering it useless. Neither Kaine nor SpOck are really that verse in utilizing webbing to the degree that Peter was either, so I don't think either one holds an advantage over the other.

Although, I think SpOck's downfall here might be that he tends to test the waters first, studying his opponent before diving in full throttle. Kaine won't give him that benefit as he already doesn't like Peter in the first place and any reason he gave him to fight each other would be more than enough to piss him off.

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#19 Posted by VeganDiet (1089 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

@shawnbaby: It could happen considering Yost is writing Scarlet Spider and was also the co-writer of X-23. He knows both characters well enough to do a team-up.

It could...the way things are falling into place right now though its more likely that it would the other 3 against Otto. Maybe Kaine would start on Otto's side....but it shouldn't take him long to figure out Otto is not Peter.

It shouldn't. But it took people that know Peter as well, or better, than Kaine a long time to figure out something was up, sooooo.........

#20 Posted by Shawnbaby (10868 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@strider92 said:

@shawnbaby: It could happen considering Yost is writing Scarlet Spider and was also the co-writer of X-23. He knows both characters well enough to do a team-up.

It could...the way things are falling into place right now though its more likely that it would the other 3 against Otto. Maybe Kaine would start on Otto's side....but it shouldn't take him long to figure out Otto is not Peter.

It shouldn't. But it took people that know Peter as well, or better, than Kaine a long time to figure out something was up, sooooo.........

There really isn't anyone that knows Peter better than Kaine...

#21 Posted by laflux (17519 posts) - - Show Bio

There really isn't anyone that knows Peter better than Kaine...

Mary-Jane aside- unless we allow her plot induced idiocy in Superior Spider-Man, then I would say that is fair. In the Pain of Kaine, he was still able to tell that Peter Parker was Spider-Man after that whole Brand New Day fiasco.

Not too well versed in terms of X-23 but I will comment on what I am knowledgeable and what may turn the tide of battle. In terms of SpOck vs Kaine, there shouldn't be much of a physical difference at all, besides the fact that Kaine has organic webbing. They both share the same low level of morality and are both willing to kill without second guessing themselves. Kaine's brutality no longer would make a difference here as SpOck fights very similarly as seen against the "new" Sinister Six and recently against Jester.

Neither of them will be willing to hold back but I feel as if Kaine has a better pain threshold. SpOck seems to back off whenever he becomes outmatched to recuperate and think of a plan and depends largely on his spider-sense rather than the skills he has and constantly ignores his bodies instincts. Kaine's camo ability might come in handy here, but I'm pretty sure Ock's lenses would be able to pick up his heat signature, rendering it useless. Neither Kaine nor SpOck are really that verse in utilizing webbing to the degree that Peter was either, so I don't think either one holds an advantage over the other.

Although, I think SpOck's downfall here might be that he tends to test the waters first, studying his opponent before diving in full throttle. Kaine won't give him that benefit as he already doesn't like Peter in the first place and any reason he gave him to fight each other would be more than enough to piss him off.

Sound analysis though I would say that Peter and Kaine have made up, according to the way I see it. Even before Spider-Island, Peter was very p!ssed when he found out Kaine was killed, hence performing the mark of Kaine of Ana in the Grim Hunt saga. Kaine, if anything, doesn't like being called Spider-Man rather than not liking him. Unless your referring to SpOck, in that case then yeah, Kaine wouldn't like him at all. He's already killed Doctor Octopus before, funnily enough, in his classic incarnation.

#22 Posted by VeganDiet (1089 posts) - - Show Bio

@vegandiet said:

@shawnbaby said:

@strider92 said:

@shawnbaby: It could happen considering Yost is writing Scarlet Spider and was also the co-writer of X-23. He knows both characters well enough to do a team-up.

It could...the way things are falling into place right now though its more likely that it would the other 3 against Otto. Maybe Kaine would start on Otto's side....but it shouldn't take him long to figure out Otto is not Peter.

It shouldn't. But it took people that know Peter as well, or better, than Kaine a long time to figure out something was up, sooooo.........

There really isn't anyone that knows Peter better than Kaine...

I don't really see how that's true. I mean I suppose he would have all of Peter's memories (I don't even know if that's true, I'm just assuming cause that's usually modus operandi with clones.), but he still has barely even been in Peter's life. As far as Kaine knows there could be any number of reasons for Peter acting differently. He hasn't seen him in months. People like Mary Jane and Carlie should know something is up before Kaine would, as they would know there's no real reason for his behavior change.

#23 Posted by Deranged Midget (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Sound analysis though I would say that Peter and Kaine have made up, according to the way I see it. Even before Spider-Island, Peter was very p!ssed when he found out Kaine was killed, hence performing the mark of Kaine of Ana in the Grim Hunt saga. Kaine, if anything, doesn't like being called Spider-Man rather than not liking him. Unless your referring to SpOck, in that case then yeah, Kaine wouldn't like him at all. He's already killed Doctor Octopus before, funnily enough, in his classic incarnation.

I'd say it's more along the lines of Peter accepting Kaine rather than the opposite. He hates being compared to Peter and hates that his sense of morality follows him around. He doesn't want to be a hero, but it's his blood. He also flipped out on Flash(Venom) and Carnage during Minimum Carnage when they compared/mistook him for Spider-Man.

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#24 Posted by Shawnbaby (10868 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@vegandiet said:

@shawnbaby said:

@strider92 said:

@shawnbaby: It could happen considering Yost is writing Scarlet Spider and was also the co-writer of X-23. He knows both characters well enough to do a team-up.

It could...the way things are falling into place right now though its more likely that it would the other 3 against Otto. Maybe Kaine would start on Otto's side....but it shouldn't take him long to figure out Otto is not Peter.

It shouldn't. But it took people that know Peter as well, or better, than Kaine a long time to figure out something was up, sooooo.........

There really isn't anyone that knows Peter better than Kaine...

I don't really see how that's true. I mean I suppose he would have all of Peter's memories (I don't even know if that's true, I'm just assuming cause that's usually modus operandi with clones.), but he still has barely even been in Peter's life. As far as Kaine knows there could be any number of reasons for Peter acting differently. He hasn't seen him in months. People like Mary Jane and Carlie should know something is up before Kaine would, as they would know there's no real reason for his behavior change.

I disagree. Kaine has the visceral experience of actually being Peter Parker basically right up to the moment Peter was cloned. The vast majority of Kaine's Life experiences are all as Peter Parker.He knows exactly how Peter thinks. He knows firsthand the importance of "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility". Mary Jane and Carly only know the Peter that they have experience with and that is from an outside perspective. Even the people that know you the best only know you from their perspective. Kaine knows him from the inside out. He's had the same perspective as Peter. He would know the difference between Peter acting differently and Peter actually being a different person.

#25 Posted by Shawnbaby (10868 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Sound analysis though I would say that Peter and Kaine have made up, according to the way I see it. Even before Spider-Island, Peter was very p!ssed when he found out Kaine was killed, hence performing the mark of Kaine of Ana in the Grim Hunt saga. Kaine, if anything, doesn't like being called Spider-Man rather than not liking him. Unless your referring to SpOck, in that case then yeah, Kaine wouldn't like him at all. He's already killed Doctor Octopus before, funnily enough, in his classic incarnation.

I'd say it's more along the lines of Peter accepting Kaine rather than the opposite. He hates being compared to Peter and hates that his sense of morality follows him around. He doesn't want to be a hero, but it's his blood. He also flipped out on Flash(Venom) and Carnage during Minimum Carnage when they compared/mistook him for Spider-Man.

To say that Kaine doesn't like Peter is oversimplifying the situation. He doesn't like being around Peter because it's like looking into the life he could have had. It's like shining a light onto all the poor choices Kaine has made in his life. Who would want to be constantly around someone that is basically a better version of them? Kaine accepted long ago that he wasn't Peter Parker and for a time he even made it his goal to "Protect Peter's Happiness". That was the whole reason he was hunting Ben Reilly for as long as he did...to make sure he could never come back to interfere with Peter's life. Really it took Peter a lot longer to accept Kaine than the other way around. Peter looked at Kaine as a dark reflection of himself...and it scared him. He could not accept that it was in him to be a murderer like Kaine. I don't think he really understood it at all until the Grim Hunt...when he was pushed right to the edge and saw how easy it could be to become just like Kaine.

#26 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

Kaine probably beats Otto.

Wolverine beats X-23.

Kaine stomps the Wolverine.

The End.......

#27 Posted by Deranged Midget (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

To say that Kaine doesn't like Peter is oversimplifying the situation. He doesn't like being around Peter because it's like looking into the life he could have had. It's like shining a light onto all the poor choices Kaine has made in his life. Who would want to be constantly around someone that is basically a better version of them? Kaine accepted long ago that he wasn't Peter Parker and for a time he even made it his goal to "Protect Peter's Happiness". That was the whole reason he was hunting Ben Reilly for as long as he did...to make sure he could never come back to interfere with Peter's life. Really it took Peter a lot longer to accept Kaine than the other way around. Peter looked at Kaine as a dark reflection of himself...and it scared him. He could not accept that it was in him to be a murderer like Kaine. I don't think he really understood it at all until the Grim Hunt...when he was pushed right to the edge and saw how easy it could be to become just like Kaine.

Well of course and the latest issues of Scarlet Spider only help reiterate that. He hates what he was and can't help accept his true nature as a murderer and despite the life he's trying to have with Aracely, he can't help but think about the danger he's constantly putting them into. As much as he hates to admit it, he so desperately wants to have a life like Peter and he envies him because of it. Kaine had to go on the run, to avoid being caught while Peter has an incredible job and is an Avenger. I don't think Peter has ever really hated Kaine and like you said, after Grim Hunt, he either wanted to help him, either out of some kind of mutual benefit or because he feared him.

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#28 Edited by Shawnbaby (10868 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: I wouldn't say he wanted to help Kaine out of fear or mutual benefit. I think he wanted to help him simply because after Grim Hunt he finally understood Kaine, felt sorry for him, and finally realized how easily he could be placed into a similar situation. I don't think Peter has ever hated Kaine either....there really aren't that many people that Peter actually hates... but there was a sense of revulsion towards him. Just the thought that a"Monster" like Kaine came from something inside of him was abhorrent to Peter. On Kaine's side there has never been any hatred toward Peter either...maybe occasional feelings of resentment, especially when he feels Peter isn't truly appreciating his life, but never really hatred.

#29 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2