Sauron runs the gauntlet.

@Frocharocha said:

@Laurcus said:

@goblin123 said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

I still don't get it... I mean.. if ''being in a physical form'' restricts your power then why would people like Gandalf, Sauron etc want to be in a physical form instead of their pure spiritual form?

Also, if ''Eru'' has God-like powers than why doesn't he just intervene in LOTR and then we wouldn't even have an epic story in the first place? I mean if he's as powerful as God then couldn't he just come down from the skies and smite Baradur down? Or he also one of those Gods who likes to test people and watch a good movie with real people and real blood that involves actual deaths between agents of good and evil?

Kind of takes out the suspense really if in a story you KNOW God exists and he can come down any time and end this... I mean if Sauron had gotten the One Ring, what's to stop Eru from saying ''Oh well, guess it's time for me to come down and settle this? I kind of wished the good guys would had won without my direct help but I could have walked in and used my omnipotent powers to end this any time. I'll just send all the good guys to heaven and all the bad ones to hell... Sauron NEVER had a chance. I just wanted to see if he would repent...''

It's not because Morgoth was in a physical form. Morgoth was the only Valar to take a fully physical form, and this had a crazy side effect of him not being able to return to his previous form. Morgoth was initially still just as powerful as he was before, but the longer he stayed in a pure physical form, the more he stopped believing in anything non-physical. Morgoth is a master of self deception, and eventually he believed his own lies that there is no god.

At this point, Morgoth basically became a pussy. His non-belief completely cut him off from his powers, and that was what made him weak. He literally turned himself into a street level character by thinking hard enough.

And I can't tell you why Eru does the things that he does. The best answer I can give is that Tolkien was a very devout Christian, and Eru is very much his perception of the Christian God. If Eru acts in a certain way, it's because Tolkien believes that God really does act that way.

@Frocharocha The Ring is basically just an easy means of mind control. If Sauron wears the Ring, he automatically controls anyone else that wears one of the 9 or 7 rings. Basically, people didn't know Sauron was bad, because he's a shapeshifter, and he appeared to them as a good guy. He helped people out by making these rings of power that inspire great hope and leadership in people, but it was a trick. His plan was to instantly mind control all the world's leaders. This didn't work out, because he didn't actually help create the 3 Elvish rings of power, so there were still people left to oppose him. He had to put most of his spirit into the One Ring though, so losing it weakened him greatly.

Basically he created a massive weakness for himself for one chance to take over the world.

I tough that too. Tolkien was very creative, and after learning about Melkor and Eru, i also therozied that Tolkien was very christian. But it's obvious that The War of The Ring was inspired on his time during WW1.

Of course.. actual experience must've helped in writing the awesome wars.. When the rain starts at Helm's deep, I still get chills..

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@Frocharocha said:

@Laurcus said:

@goblin123 said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

I still don't get it... I mean.. if ''being in a physical form'' restricts your power then why would people like Gandalf, Sauron etc want to be in a physical form instead of their pure spiritual form?

Also, if ''Eru'' has God-like powers than why doesn't he just intervene in LOTR and then we wouldn't even have an epic story in the first place? I mean if he's as powerful as God then couldn't he just come down from the skies and smite Baradur down? Or he also one of those Gods who likes to test people and watch a good movie with real people and real blood that involves actual deaths between agents of good and evil?

Kind of takes out the suspense really if in a story you KNOW God exists and he can come down any time and end this... I mean if Sauron had gotten the One Ring, what's to stop Eru from saying ''Oh well, guess it's time for me to come down and settle this? I kind of wished the good guys would had won without my direct help but I could have walked in and used my omnipotent powers to end this any time. I'll just send all the good guys to heaven and all the bad ones to hell... Sauron NEVER had a chance. I just wanted to see if he would repent...''

It's not because Morgoth was in a physical form. Morgoth was the only Valar to take a fully physical form, and this had a crazy side effect of him not being able to return to his previous form. Morgoth was initially still just as powerful as he was before, but the longer he stayed in a pure physical form, the more he stopped believing in anything non-physical. Morgoth is a master of self deception, and eventually he believed his own lies that there is no god.

At this point, Morgoth basically became a pussy. His non-belief completely cut him off from his powers, and that was what made him weak. He literally turned himself into a street level character by thinking hard enough.

And I can't tell you why Eru does the things that he does. The best answer I can give is that Tolkien was a very devout Christian, and Eru is very much his perception of the Christian God. If Eru acts in a certain way, it's because Tolkien believes that God really does act that way.

@Frocharocha The Ring is basically just an easy means of mind control. If Sauron wears the Ring, he automatically controls anyone else that wears one of the 9 or 7 rings. Basically, people didn't know Sauron was bad, because he's a shapeshifter, and he appeared to them as a good guy. He helped people out by making these rings of power that inspire great hope and leadership in people, but it was a trick. His plan was to instantly mind control all the world's leaders. This didn't work out, because he didn't actually help create the 3 Elvish rings of power, so there were still people left to oppose him. He had to put most of his spirit into the One Ring though, so losing it weakened him greatly.

Basically he created a massive weakness for himself for one chance to take over the world.

I tough that too. Tolkien was very creative, and after learning about Melkor and Eru, i also therozied that Tolkien was very christian. But it's obvious that The War of The Ring was inspired on his time during WW1.

Of course.. actual experience must've helped in writing the awesome wars.. When the rain starts at Helm's deep, I still get chills..

So I can assume that the Orcs are the Russians? LOL

@afueikawa said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@Frocharocha said:

@Laurcus said:

@goblin123 said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

I still don't get it... I mean.. if ''being in a physical form'' restricts your power then why would people like Gandalf, Sauron etc want to be in a physical form instead of their pure spiritual form?

Also, if ''Eru'' has God-like powers than why doesn't he just intervene in LOTR and then we wouldn't even have an epic story in the first place? I mean if he's as powerful as God then couldn't he just come down from the skies and smite Baradur down? Or he also one of those Gods who likes to test people and watch a good movie with real people and real blood that involves actual deaths between agents of good and evil?

Kind of takes out the suspense really if in a story you KNOW God exists and he can come down any time and end this... I mean if Sauron had gotten the One Ring, what's to stop Eru from saying ''Oh well, guess it's time for me to come down and settle this? I kind of wished the good guys would had won without my direct help but I could have walked in and used my omnipotent powers to end this any time. I'll just send all the good guys to heaven and all the bad ones to hell... Sauron NEVER had a chance. I just wanted to see if he would repent...''

It's not because Morgoth was in a physical form. Morgoth was the only Valar to take a fully physical form, and this had a crazy side effect of him not being able to return to his previous form. Morgoth was initially still just as powerful as he was before, but the longer he stayed in a pure physical form, the more he stopped believing in anything non-physical. Morgoth is a master of self deception, and eventually he believed his own lies that there is no god.

At this point, Morgoth basically became a pussy. His non-belief completely cut him off from his powers, and that was what made him weak. He literally turned himself into a street level character by thinking hard enough.

And I can't tell you why Eru does the things that he does. The best answer I can give is that Tolkien was a very devout Christian, and Eru is very much his perception of the Christian God. If Eru acts in a certain way, it's because Tolkien believes that God really does act that way.

@Frocharocha The Ring is basically just an easy means of mind control. If Sauron wears the Ring, he automatically controls anyone else that wears one of the 9 or 7 rings. Basically, people didn't know Sauron was bad, because he's a shapeshifter, and he appeared to them as a good guy. He helped people out by making these rings of power that inspire great hope and leadership in people, but it was a trick. His plan was to instantly mind control all the world's leaders. This didn't work out, because he didn't actually help create the 3 Elvish rings of power, so there were still people left to oppose him. He had to put most of his spirit into the One Ring though, so losing it weakened him greatly.

Basically he created a massive weakness for himself for one chance to take over the world.

I tough that too. Tolkien was very creative, and after learning about Melkor and Eru, i also therozied that Tolkien was very christian. But it's obvious that The War of The Ring was inspired on his time during WW1.

Of course.. actual experience must've helped in writing the awesome wars.. When the rain starts at Helm's deep, I still get chills..

So I can assume that the Orcs are the Russians? LOL

I think they are the germans lol.

Tolkien actually vehemently argued against LOTRs being inspired by WW1 or WW2. In the first official publishing of the LOTRs, (which I own BTW) in the author's foreword he actually seems kind of pissed off and says that he's not in any way inspired by WW1 or 2 and is greatly offended at the idea.

Maybe stops at 3. If not, maybe stops at 5. If not, definitely stops at 7.

@Laurcus said:

It's not because Morgoth was in a physical form. Morgoth was the only Valar to take a fully physical form, and this had a crazy side effect of him not being able to return to his previous form. Morgoth was initially still just as powerful as he was before, but the longer he stayed in a pure physical form, the more he stopped believing in anything non-physical. Morgoth is a master of self deception, and eventually he believed his own lies that there is no god.

At this point, Morgoth basically became a pussy. His non-belief completely cut him off from his powers, and that was what made him weak. He literally turned himself into a street level character by thinking hard enough.

And I can't tell you why Eru does the things that he does. The best answer I can give is that Tolkien was a very devout Christian, and Eru is very much his perception of the Christian God. If Eru acts in a certain way, it's because Tolkien believes that God really does act that way.

Have to disagree to a degree, Morgoth used his power up by corrupting and influencing the world around him. The more of his 'power' he poured into his armies and creatures the weaker he become. All of the Ainur had a limited source of power, for example Aule only had the ability to construct the two lamps once, and Yavanna was unable to recreate the two trees after their destruction. In saying that, by spending time in the presence of greater powers would boost the power of all who spend time with them. For example the Noldor were extremely 'charged' when they returned to Middle earth to face Morgoth, but the longer they stayed in Middle earth the light of the valar started to fade in them. Galadriel was a obvious exception, because she grew in power and influence the longer she spent in middle earth. Although who studies under Melian and her ring of power was partly responsible for that

Because Tolkien was a very devout Christian, I doubt Eru was his interpretation of the Christian god. He also despised allegory, which again would suggest he would avoid making such a connection. But I do not doubt for a moment, that there are strong parallels between the Christian god and Eru, but I personally doubt they are meant as the same being. If it was, then it would have been quite heretical on his part.

@Militaris said:

@Laurcus said:

It's not because Morgoth was in a physical form. Morgoth was the only Valar to take a fully physical form, and this had a crazy side effect of him not being able to return to his previous form. Morgoth was initially still just as powerful as he was before, but the longer he stayed in a pure physical form, the more he stopped believing in anything non-physical. Morgoth is a master of self deception, and eventually he believed his own lies that there is no god.

At this point, Morgoth basically became a pussy. His non-belief completely cut him off from his powers, and that was what made him weak. He literally turned himself into a street level character by thinking hard enough.

And I can't tell you why Eru does the things that he does. The best answer I can give is that Tolkien was a very devout Christian, and Eru is very much his perception of the Christian God. If Eru acts in a certain way, it's because Tolkien believes that God really does act that way.

Have to disagree to a degree, Morgoth used his power up by corrupting and influencing the world around him. The more of his 'power' he poured into his armies and creatures the weaker he become. All of the Ainur had a limited source of power, for example Aule only had the ability to construct the two lamps once, and Yavanna was unable to recreate the two trees after their destruction. In saying that, by spending time in the presence of greater powers would boost the power of all who spend time with them. For example the Noldor were extremely 'charged' when they returned to Middle earth to face Morgoth, but the longer they stayed in Middle earth the light of the valar started to fade in them. Galadriel was a obvious exception, because she grew in power and influence the longer she spent in middle earth. Although who studies under Melian and her ring of power was partly responsible for that

Because Tolkien was a very devout Christian, I doubt Eru was his interpretation of the Christian god. He also despised allegory, which again would suggest he would avoid making such a connection. But I do not doubt for a moment, that there are strong parallels between the Christian god and Eru, but I personally doubt they are meant as the same being. If it was, then it would have been quite heretical on his part.

Here's what Tolkien has to say on the matter.

"A clear explanation of Eru appears in a draft of a letter that Tolkien wrote in 1954 to Peter Hastings, manager of the Newman Bookshop (a Catholic bookshop in Oxford). In the letter, Tolkien, himself a devout Roman Catholic, defended the non-orthodox portrayal of God (Eru) in his writing as rightly within the scope of his legendarium, as an exploration of the infinite "potential variety" of God.

Regarding the possibility of reincarnation of Elves, Hastings had written:

God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already.

Tolkien's reply explains his view of the relation of (divine) Creation to (human) sub-creation:

We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!

Hastings had also criticised the description of Tom Bombadil by Goldberry — "He is" — saying that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God. In reply, Tolkien said:

As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. [...] You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person."

@TheTmac said:

Sauron is as featless as they get. He lost to Isildur in LOTR so I think anyone past round 3 stomps him.

Who happened to be one of the greatest heroes of the age.

@Outside_85 said:

@TheTmac said:

Sauron is as featless as they get. He lost to Isildur in LOTR so I think anyone past round 3 stomps him.

Who happened to be one of the greatest heroes of the age.

Oh really? Care to give me some of his feats?

Few things:
 
1.Eru created some dimension, no reason to belive that it was even close to be as big as universe.
2.Sauron never fought agaisnt Eru or Valars. It was Morgoth, Sauron was just one of his soldiers. IMO weaker than most powerfull dragon and balrog. But it is just an opinion.
3.Valars created the world, Sauron is only Maiar. Ergo, Valars as a group could be considered as a planetary level threat, but not Sauron. Valars did pretty much the same things, that gods from God of War did.
4.Ring was unable to affect Bombadil. And Bombadil said that no one can control whole wheater even he can't. We do know that Sauron and Saruman had few feats with this, but considering real area affected and Tom's words, I wouldn't put them even near people like Storm, let alone gods like Zephyr or Thor (I'm saying it just in case)
5.Sauron's telepathy is very, very limitted. He couldn't control people who stand in his way in Palantir.
6.Sauron doesn't have any important destruction feats, but we should belive that his power alone should be greater than Galadriel's who destroyed Dor Guldur.  Similar with his durability (above Galadriel's offnsive magic).
7.Thing about Andruil - it was eat for the sword, not against Sauron. Even Zeus in Marvel was killed by sword (God Killer or Grass Cutter IDK right now).
 
Ergo, he should stop at most versions of Kratos:
Kratos with Sword of Olympus (any time)
Kratos who fought with Ares (end of GoW 1)
Kratos who fought with Zeus (end of GoW 2 and end of GoW 3)
 
Kratos after depowering in the beginning of each game would lose hard, but give him his weapons and magic and he wins it.

@TheTmac: Read the Silmarillion

@Outside_85 said:

@TheTmac: Read the Silmarillion

Read it and I dont recall him having any noteworthy feats. So how about you refresh my memory? Or you can just admit that he is completely featless like 90% of lotr characters.

Few things:  
1.Eru created some dimension, no reason to belive that it was even close to be as big as universe. 
2.Sauron never fought agaisnt Eru or Valars. It was Morgoth, Sauron was just one of his soldiers. IMO weaker than most powerfull dragon and balrog. But it is just an opinion. 
3.Valars created the world, Sauron is only Maiar. Ergo, Valars as a group could be considered as a planetary level threat, but not Sauron. Valars did pretty much the same things, that gods from God of War did. 
4.Ring was unable to affect Bombadil. And Bombadil said that no one can control whole wheater even he can't. We do know that Sauron and Saruman had few feats with this, but considering real area affected and Tom's words, I wouldn't put them even near people like Storm, let alone gods like Zephyr or Thor (I'm saying it just in case) 
5.Sauron's telepathy is very, very limitted. He couldn't control people who stand in his way in Palantir. 
6.Sauron doesn't have any important destruction feats, but we should belive that his power alone should be greater than Galadriel's who destroyed Dor Guldur.  Similar with his durability (above Galadriel's offnsive magic). 
7.Thing about Andruil - it was eat for the sword, not against Sauron. Even Zeus in Marvel was killed by sword (God Killer or Grass Cutter IDK right now).  
Ergo, he should stop at most versions of Kratos: Kratos with Sword of Olympus (any time)Kratos who fought with Ares (end of GoW 1) Kratos who fought with Zeus (end of GoW 2 and end of GoW 3)  Kratos after depowering in the beginning of each game would lose hard, but give him his weapons and magic and he wins it.

@czarny_samael666: I dont think Galadriel is more powerfull than Sauron, but then again im not an expert on Galadriel. The problem with most of the LOTR threads is that LOTR characters have very limited feats. I dont see a reason why Leonidas couldnt do what Isildur did.

@czarny_samael666: I dont think Galadriel is more powerfull than Sauron, but then again im not an expert on Galadriel. The problem with most of the LOTR threads is that LOTR characters have very limited feats. I dont see a reason why Leonidas couldnt do what Isildur did.

@czarny_samael666: How was it magical??? What sort of powers did it have? You must have not read the books Witch king has nothing on Gandalf that deleted scene was deleted for a reason. Galadriel is way above Gandalf and Sauron is still featless a hell with or without the ring. Witch king should be at the bottom of your list. And Galadriel at the top or second. Leonidas kills him easily just like Isildur did.

@czarny_samael666: How was it magical??? What sort of powers did it have? You must have not read the books Witch king has nothing on Gandalf that deleted scene was deleted for a reason. Galadriel is way above Gandalf and Sauron is still featless a hell with or without the ring. Witch king should be at the bottom of your list. And Galadriel at the top or second. Leonidas kills him easily just like Isildur did.

@Bo88gdan said:

Gandalf the whıte Stops hım

Gandalf was defeated by the Witch King, he doesn't have a chance against Sauron.

On topic, not sure why people are saying Kratos would win.

Probably stops at Dr. Doom. (His sorcery would NOT work on Sauron.)

@logy5000: In movie yes but in the book Gandalf is much more powerfull than a Witch King

@Bo88gdan: What feats does he have in the books?

I will never understand why Peter Jackson added the scene where the With King breaks Gandalf staff. In the novel, the Witch King, after some bravado talking, flees in front of Gandalf.

Earlier in the novel,the nine nazgul dare not engage Gandalf the Grey during day time and they only attack him at night. And Gandalf is able to resist their attack for the whole night.

@leito said:

I will never understand why Peter Jackson added the scene where the With King breaks Gandalf staff. In the novel, the Witch King, after some bravado talking, flees in front of Gandalf. During the day, the nine nazgul dare not engage Gandalf the Grey and the only attack him at night and Gandalf resists their attack for the whole night.

He flees because the riders of Rohan just appeared on the other side of the battlefield. Hell, Gandalf himself expresses doubt that he could beat him earlier on. I think it's quite fair to say the Witch-King from ROTK is the same With-King from FOTR, power-level wise.

@czarny_samael666: Sounds more like superstition than magic to me. Anyway Sauron is still featless as hell.

Are we counting game sauron powers and shit also?

Sauron should make it to at least Kratos, and could go farther

movie version Stops at 2

Stops at Kratos, Voldi could give him trouble too.

Heresy

Stomps until 9, at which point I don't know Kratos or Doom well enough, and have no strong enough position on where i rank Dovakhiin to say who wins.

Movie version sauron ain't getting past voldemort.

He is really really really dead against Kratos , and deader then dead against the Last Dragonborn. Ofcourse I would love to know the thought process behind the creation of the thread , for some reason some random Nazis and literally just eleven Spartans are superior to a team containing Gandalf the white , who in a far weaker form defeating a freaking Balrog, deflected 100+ ft/s arrows , blow away orcish armies and much more.

Vader would likely be able to subdue him , Doom also would do the same. He is really really really dead against Kratos , his only hope against Kratos can be is becoming a completely incorporeal and immortal Maia and running as fast as possible, and he is deader then dead against the Last Dragonborn , no amount of Maia incorporeality or Immortality is saving him from either his power or the hax such as Voice and Daedric artifacts.

Ofcourse I would love to know the thought process behind the creation of the thread , for some reason some random Nazis and literally just eleven Spartans are superior to a team containing Gandalf the white , who in a far weaker form defeated a Balrog, deflected 100+ ft/s arrows , blow away orcish armies with singular spells and much more as well as some Nazis and eleven spartans being higher then Voldemort who destroyed large towers with Telekenesis while throwing a temper tantrum and produced so much lightning it almost made night feel like day , also destroying a barrier that was disintegrating people on touch and if you want to use Fantastic beast , scaling to effecting Greater London resulting to City block and higher potency.

really , really questionable order.