Satele Shan vs. Obi Wan Kenobi ROTS

@deranged_midget: Wow, thanks man! I appreciate it. Especially to be considered alongside those guys... they paved the way for SW debating on this board, after all.

Satele has blitzed several Sith warriors; that alone is enough to prevent a blitz from Kenobi. To say other wise is preposterous; Obi-Wan has never blitzed someone of Shan's speed class.

And Obi-Wan held his own against Maul and Opress at the same time. Not only held his own but managed to wound Opress. Plus, we dont know how strong those warriors were. They are featless cannon fodder and they can be even weaker than some Padawans from Galactic Republic era. Obi-Wan can speedblitz her.

And their difference in The Force wont realy help her to win. Obi-Wan can deal far more Force abilities due to his speed. And when they are in close combat, it will be very similar to Maul completely outclassing Opress.

Satele cant beat Obi-Wan.

@i_like_swords: Recognition where it's due! ;) Keep on doing your thing!

Kenobi

Satele.

In the other thread, you have yet to answer me as to how fighting against fast opponents is such an amazing speed feat. You don't have to be as fast as somebody to contend with them, unless you wish to contend that Vader rivals Maul and Luke in speed. Do you understand?

You lack basis for both of these claims. You suggest that they could be worse than Padawans, but only for the sake of supporting your argument? Why would you not assume that there is an at least equal chance of them being better than Padawans?

You also failed to consider that Satele then improved over the following decades. Her speed, which, from Fatal Alliance, was clearly much greater than that of Eldon Ax's, would suffice to stop her from being bitzed. And really, Obi-Wan has no showings to suggest that he would blitz her. He failed to blitz Savage, who is certainly not faster than Satele is. What makes you think that he would suddenly obtain greater speed so he could blitz Satele now?

Based on what? She's about as powerful as TCW Maul at least, and he was capable of Choking and hurling about Obi-Wan.

Don't be ridiculous. Obi-Wan having speed that hardly even exceeds Satele, if not only rivaling hers, is enough to prevent Force abilities? Show me when Kenobi's speed has prevented him from losing to vastly superior Force power. Because Maul and Tyranus both disposed of him with the Force without having to exert maximum effort, and Obi-Wan's speed never prevented him from being telekinetically controlled.

So whatever it is that makes you believe that Obi-Wan's speed would enable him to resist Force powers is beyond me. Kenobi is not noticeably faster than Satele is to begin with, and I think it should go without saying that speed is a physical trait and has no bearing on whether or not Kenobi would lose to Satele's powers or not.

Outrageous.

Kenobi's speed didn't help him against Dooku's telekinesis, why would it be different for Kenobi.

Yes, it can. Because if you are not fast enough, you cant keep up. Thats it. Do you understand?

Maul outclassed Vader in terms of speed and Luke was a little bit faster than Vader. But again - was vader fighting him with anything he's got? Was he all out on Luke?

Force-users of TOR era are not as strong as force-users of GR era. And there is a gap of several thousands years. Galactic Republic force-users are much more improved than their counterparts from era thousands years ago. And since those force-users Satele beat had no feats, that feat is not good enough to put her in the same speed league as Obi-Wan, who is clearly faster than her.

It exceeds Satele, by a lot. Thats the point. Obi-Wan fought on par with characters who's speed feats are superior to those of Satele, he beat characters who's speed feats are superior to those of Satele, and his personal speed feats are very impressive. Satele's speed feats are very poor.

Maul and Tyranus are superior to Satele in speed. So whats your point?

I want you to show me how Satele beats any powerful (and i mean - powerful) force-user only with Force, without engaging in close combat.

@jedisupermaster:

Yes, it can.

What do you mean "yes, it can"? I didn't even ask you a question that would require you to answer with "yes, it can".

Because if you are not fast enough, you cant keep up. Thats it. Do you understand?

And Satele can keep up with them as well, which is why it is irrelevant. Do you understand?

Maul outclassed Vader in terms of speed and Luke was a little bit faster than Vader. But again - was vader fighting him with anything he's got? Was he all out on Luke?

Then that proves the point that fighting somebody is not indicative of being as fast as they are.

Yes, he was. This has nothing to do with anything I said.

Force-users of TOR era are not as strong as force-users of GR era. And there is a gap of several thousands years. Galactic Republic force-users are much more improved than their counterparts from era thousands years ago.

Do you have any basis for this? Not only is it outrageous that you somehow manage to generalize Force users of a specific era and determine inferiority, but it is also outrageous that you would suggest that these generalized Force users are just much more improved over their predecessors without evidential criteria or basis.

And since those force-users Satele beat had no feats, that feat is not good enough to put her in the same speed league as Obi-Wan, who is clearly faster than her.

Considering just about all of Obi-Wan's commonly accepted speed feats relative to others (deflecting fire from entire armies, reacting to ships moving at sub-light speeds) relates to featless individuals, then this also goes both ways, so you're continuing to contradict yourself.

You also continue to neglect that Satele improved over the decades that followed since the Battle of Alderaan, and if you read sufficient SW material, you can draw comparisons to other very powerful Force users and how much they can grow in only a few years, let alone decades.

If you intend on lowballing Satele, then let me tell you something - lowballing is something I can do as well. Remember all the times where not only featless but non-Force sensitive characters have reacted to Obi-Wan? Don't answer me.

It exceeds Satele, by a lot. Thats the point. Obi-Wan fought on par with characters who's speed feats are superior to those of Satele, he beat characters who's speed feats are superior to those of Satele, and his personal speed feats are very impressive. Satele's speed feats are very poor.

Prove that Obi-Wan's opponents possess speed that exceed Satele's by a lot, and show me which opponents he has beaten with superior speed feats comparative to Satele.

Also tell me how you arrived at the conclusion that Obi-Wan's speed feats are "very impressive" whereas Satele's speed feats are "very poor". I'm aware of your ability to pass unsubstantiated and outrageous judgements, but what is still beyond me is how you manage to reach those conclusions. You still lack justifications for Obi-Wan being able to blitz Satele or being able to circumvent Satele's considerably greater power through his speed.

Maul and Tyranus are superior to Satele in speed. So whats your point?

Questionable, and if they are, the difference is not very noticeable. Obi-Wan, who is at least slower than Tyranus (The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader) would not have any distinct speed edge over Satele, especially because Satele is not necessarily beneath Tyranus and Maul in combative speed regardless.

I want you to show me how Satele beats any powerful (and i mean - powerful) force-user only with Force, without engaging in close combat.

No, I want you to actually answer the questions I ask and prove everything you've claimed without basis, before I start to answer any of yours. Don't speak to me until you answer the questions.

No she cant. Thats the point. Her speed feats are not as impressive as those of Obi-Wan. And for sure she cant compete with Maul. When she has speed feats as good as Maul's, let me know. Do you understand?

At least we can debate on was Vader all out or not, because at that moment he already had a conflict inside him. And he didnt want to kill Luke.

But in Maul-Kenobi-Opress case? They were fighting for their lives. And there is nothing to think otherwise.

Tyranus, Sidious, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Maul, Yoda, Mace Windu and many others. Not only they are strong, but they can also teach their students their techniques and Force abilities. And there is a time gap of several thousand years of improvement. Yoda alone can speedblitz any GR character. So yeah, Force-users of GR timeline are better than their predecessors.

Obi-Wan demostrated his speed during his fight with 2 characters who's speed feats are greater than those of Satele. And i want to know what speed feats Satele has? What has she done to think she can keep up with Obi-Wan?

I also wanna see a proof she improved much. Not a little bit, but much.

Non-Force sencitives? Such as mandalorians? They are known for their ability to kill jedi's. So thats not enough of lowballing.

Maul was moving so fast that he will be invicible for any holorecordings unless they wil be slowed down. That feat alone is better than anything Satele has ever demonstrated. And Kenobi fought him and Savage at once.

Kenobi has a sub-light reaction speed. Wanna see Satele demonstrating something like that. What is her best speed feat?

Satele is beneath Maul and Tyranus in combat speed. But i can wait for you to bring here some of Satele's best speed feats.

@jedisupermaster:

No, I asked you a question about what you meant and what you were responding to when you said "yes, it can" and you haven't answered me.

No she cant. Thats the point. Her speed feats are not as impressive as those of Obi-Wan. And for sure she cant compete with Maul. When she has speed feats as good as Maul's, let me know. Do you understand?

You can continue to rave on about how you believe that her speed feats can't compare, despite the obviousness of what you believe, and it won't make a difference. Do you understand?

At least we can debate on was Vader all out or not, because at that moment he already had a conflict inside him. And he didnt want to kill Luke.

Yes, he did.

You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

Source: Return of the Jedi

And more importantly, the argument is completely reversible. Luke was fighting to redeem his father, not kill him.

When Luke confronted Darth Vader again, he possessed the clarity and wisdom of a Jedi Knight. He had no set out to conquer but rather to redeem the good in his father.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Your claim is unsubstantiated (as usual), and now there is evidence to contradict what you claim. That, and not wanting to kill somebody hardly means that you are holding back skill or speed. Tyranus was clearly not to kill Anakin in RotS, yet he was taxed to his very limits and beyond and he never simply increased his skill or speed to match Anakin. He was outright overwhelmed despite utilizing everything he had, and he was utilizing all he had in spite of the fact that he was told not to kill Anakin.

But in Maul-Kenobi-Opress case? They were fighting for their lives. And there is nothing to think otherwise.

Again, this has nothing to do with speed.

Tyranus, Sidious, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Maul, Yoda, Mace Windu and many others. Not only they are strong, but they can also teach their students their techniques and Force abilities. And there is a time gap of several thousand years of improvement. Yoda alone can speedblitz any GR character. So yeah, Force-users of GR timeline are better than their predecessors.

Except just about everybody you mentioned in that list, except for Mace, is faster than Obi-Wan is, especially Palpatine, somebody who is not just faster than Kenobi but would also blitz him.

Obi-Wan blitzed none of those characters, and we are comparing the fodder Force-sensitive characters from each era, not the best of one era to fodder of another.

Therefore, there is still nothing to suggest that the Sith Warriors Satele blitzed would be any inferior to the Jedi Padawans of the RotE era, as you suggested.

Obi-Wan demostrated his speed during his fight with 2 characters who's speed feats are greater than those of Satele. And i want to know what speed feats Satele has? What has she done to think she can keep up with Obi-Wan?

You don't know what Satele's speed feats are (a remarkable achievement given that I told you about them), yet you still presume that she is slower than Maul and Savage? Aren't you sorry that you utterly humiliated yourself?

And tell me what Savage has done to exceed Satele in speed.

I also wanna see a proof she improved much. Not a little bit, but much.

The fact that her power showings improved noticeably, if not considerably, between Hope and Fatal Alliance, and that if we analyze other comparably powerful Force sensitives, we can track their improvements over periods of time and they do improve by much. In fact, Anakin improved noticeably in dueling in just a day. Even Nejaa Halcyon improved noticeably in just one day.

Non-Force sencitives? Such as mandalorians? They are known for their ability to kill jedi's. So thats not enough of lowballing.

I said don't answer me, because it's a rhetorical question.

And it's hardly just Mandalorians, but also the likes of Cad Bane, who survive against others almost solely due to PIS. They all manage to react to him despite having no Force-sensitivity at all. The fact is that characters without showings have reacted to Obi-Wan, yet you lambaste Satele for only blitzing featless characters. Stop contradicting yourself.

Maul was moving so fast that he will be invicible for any holorecordings unless they wil be slowed down. That feat alone is better than anything Satele has ever demonstrated. And Kenobi fought him and Savage at once.

Invisible, not invincible. And that just means that he is faster than the human eye can follow, which is not even on par to Satele being faster than superhumanly-accelerated eyes can see, so how in the world is that a better speed feat than Satele's? Tell me.

Kenobi has a sub-light reaction speed. Wanna see Satele demonstrating something like that. What is her best speed feat?

Again, you don't know what her best speed feats are and you continue to make baseless assumptions. Outrageous.

I already told you what her best speed feat is.

I asked you to justify how Obi-Wan's speed would circumvent Satele's power, not to try to justify your inability to answer questions.

Satele is beneath Maul and Tyranus in combat speed. But i can wait for you to bring here some of Satele's best speed feats.

Try to stop demanding things from me that I have already given you and start to pay careful attention to what I say so that you stop asking or telling me ridiculous things.

And next time, try to answer all of the questions I ask, or don't expect a response.

Satele Shan.

Obi-Wan has sub-light speed. Obi-Wan moved in a blur many times. Obi-Wan fought with both Maul and Savage at the same time and, as we know, Maul can move so fast he will be invisible for any holorecordings. Obi-Wan proved himself to be faster than some characters who's speed feats are on par with Satele's. And so on, and so on. But what Satele did? She blitzed 3 cannon fodders. You compare this feat to Obi-Wan fighting Maul and Opress at the same time. But there is one fact - they are featless, completely. And how can we judge in what era force-users were better in terms of combat? Well, for those thousands of years, force-users improved greatly. In general, speed and combat feats of GR era force-users are better than those of TOR era force-users. New techniques were invented. Lightsaber styles were modified. Plus, those great force-users can teach others with their techniques. So yeah, i think GR force-users, in general, were stronger then previous ones.

Even Vader, who is inferior to ROTS Obi-Wan in terms of speed, moved as a blur without seeming to move for a force-user - Ferus Olin. That feat alone is more impressive than Satele's feat of surprising Eldon Ax with her speed. Eldon Ax is featless, but i can be wrong. So it is up to you to bring here some of her feats so i can change my mind.

Others improvements have nothing to do with Sateles improvements. And maybe she wasnt able to improve so greatly after fatal Alliance. Maybe she almost got her limit in Fatal Alliance already. Anyway, there is no proof she improved drastically. Not even a logical suggestion.

Lets compare their speed feats in general.

Sateles feats: speedblitzing 3 completely featless cannon fodders, moving in a blur, surprising featless force-user Eldon Ax with her speed and being beaten by Malgus several times. Plus, Eldon Ax saw her, she was able to keep up with her. So how is Sateles feat with Eldon is more impressive than any feat of Maul, who also was able to speedblitz Savage, who is better than Eldon Ax in speed? But again - maybe i am wrong and Eldon has impressive feats. Bring them here.

Obi-Wans feats: fighting against Maul and Savage at the same time, plus, being able to hurt Savage in that fight. Sub-light reaction speed. Moving so fast it seemed he vanished. Moving in a blur. Deflecting blasts from an army of droids. Being faster than someone who can move in a blur and hold his own against TPM Maul.

It is obvious Obi-Wans speed feats are better than those of Satele. And it is obvious he is miles above Satele in lightsaber combat.

And in Force, he is comparable to Satele.

So now i am gonna ask you a quastion - how Satele is gonna win? This is not a rhetorical quastion we asked each other in this thread.

She can wreck him in the Force, he can wreck her with lightsaber.

Kenobi wins.

@deranged_midget: oh ILS is one of the best Star Wars people on the vine... hes diverse enough to cover even unknown people like Kyle Katarn (who is my fav star wars char ever) to my least fav Boba Fett (jk jk @i_like_swords i love Boba also)

@serrure: I do cover a few unknowns, but post-RotJ is actually my worst time period. I know of Kyle' capabilities, though. Thanks for the kind words though, man :P

@i_like_swords: im just saying before i met you i didnt know Quinlan Vos existed let alone was boss enough to combat Leia Solo

That's a horrible argument. A powerful Force user will normally win over an effective lightsaber duelist.

It mostly depends on what the powerful Force User likes doing. If they spend most of their time dueling with opponents, they'll probably lose when they face a superior duelist despite their power advantage. If they like abusing their power early on, they'll win.

@sxe619: Watch this fight

Completely agreed. I meant to say something like this in my post, but I didn't because I'm lazy. Most of the time, in my view at least, if someone is powerful with the Force but lacking in lightsaber combat, why would they choose to duel over using their Force abilities? That wouldn't make very much sense to me.

@penderor: What about them?

@jedisupermaster: Bro.....just stop. You lost. get over it.

It's good to have a mix of both in my mind, even if you aren't uber in either category. If a powerful Force User, who lacks in the saber department, was to meet someone who can repel their Force attacks in some manner through durability/agility/Force-defences, or flat out match their power, they're screwed if they have nothing else to fall back on and that person can handle a blade well.

An example I would use is King Ommin vs Ulic Qel-Droma. Ommin's physical abilities were lackluster, never mind handling a lightsaber, due to his age and physical deficiencies. But he was immensely powerful, so he dominated most people. Droma, however, had a lot of willpower, and fought through Ommin's Sith magic, destroyed his mechanical exo-skeleton, and rendered him helpless because of a lack of physical capabilities. Ulic isn't even more powerful than Ommin, but he was good enough to close the gap and secure a win.

In Ommin's case, he didn't use a lightsaber partly due to the fact it seemed redundant, but also because he just couldn't in a practical sense. But it goes to show that not being able to cover all your weak points can lead to disaster, when faced with the wrong opponent.

Darth Malgus is a good example of someone who realized the importance of both Force combat and lightsaber usage. He was an exceptional duelist and Force User because he put work into both facets of combat, and as a result there weren't many who could defeat him - he could either outduel them, overpower them physically, or use TK and lightning to destroy them.

@jedisupermaster: Don't speak to me until you answer all of the questions.

Agreed. Should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, pretty much.

@i_like_swords: Indeed. It's mostly just a combination of character proficiency in skill and power, and character morals. Morals off usually favors Force wielders if they have that edge, whereas morals on usually favors duelists, if they have the skill edge.

I can speak to you when i want and i will do it whenever i want if it doesnt break the rules. Is that clear?

Based on what? She's about as powerful as TCW Maul at least, and he was capable of Choking and hurling about Obi-Wan.

Based on the fact she never did such a thing to as powerful force-user as Obi-Wan. She didnt do anything like that to Malgus, by the way.

What do you mean "yes, it can"? I didn't even ask you a question that would require you to answer with "yes, it can".

It was because of my bad english. So i dont think i need to answer to this quastion in order to continue to debate.

Obi-Wan having speed that hardly even exceeds Satele, if not only rivaling hers, is enough to prevent Force abilities? Show me when Kenobi's speed has prevented him from losing to vastly superior Force power.

Since Kenobi is a lot faster than Satele, he can. Kenobi's speed hasnt prevented him from losing to vastly superior Force power. But it was partly because that force power was wielded by very fast characters.

Obi-Wan has no showings to suggest that he would blitz her. He failed to blitz Savage, who is certainly not faster than Satele is. What makes you think that he would suddenly obtain greater speed so he could blitz Satele now?

Savage is a fast force-user himself. But anyway, we are talking about ROTS Obi-Wan. Obi-Wans speed became good enough to fight both Maul and Opress at the same time. In ROTS, he is even better than in TCW. So yeah, in close combat, he can do to Satele the same thing Maul did to Opress. He wrecks her due to his speed.

You don't have to be as fast as somebody to contend with them, unless you wish to contend that Vader rivals Maul and Luke in speed. Do you understand?

You need to have at least close speed and reaction to keep up. Maul defeated Vader because he was better in terms of speed and skill. And Luke was faster than Vader.

You don't know what Satele's speed feats are (a remarkable achievement given that I told you about them), yet you still presume that she is slower than Maul and Savage? Aren't you sorry that you utterly humiliated yourself?

LOL, that was rhetorical quastion. But you failed to recognise that. Aren't you sorry that you utterly humiliated yourself?

@jedisupermaster: I have time, so I will bother to respond.

I can speak to you when i want and i will do it whenever i want if it doesnt break the rules. Is that clear?

No, it's not clear. If you're not going to listen to me or what I say, then don't bother speaking to me. Got it?

Based on the fact she never did such a thing to as powerful force-user as Obi-Wan. She didnt do anything like that to Malgus, by the way.

Malgus is clearly much more powerful than Obi-Wan is, and she never fought Malgus in her prime.

It was because of my bad english. So i dont think i need to answer to this quastion in order to continue to debate.

Bad English doesn't explain why you responded to something that I didn't even ask. Tell me what you were referring to, so I can understand what you're saying. It's not difficult.

Since Kenobi is a lot faster than Satele, he can. Kenobi's speed hasnt prevented him from losing to vastly superior Force power. But it was partly because that force power was wielded by very fast characters.

As I said, you still lack basis for Obi-Wan being much faster than Satele.

Savage is a fast force-user himself.

Not really. He isn't a particularly fast character, and certainly not faster than Satele. Why don't you answer the question, and give me feats from Savage to support your claim that he is faster than Satele?

But anyway, we are talking about ROTS Obi-Wan. Obi-Wans speed became good enough to fight both Maul and Opress at the same time. In ROTS, he is even better than in TCW. So yeah, in close combat, he can do to Satele the same thing Maul did to Opress. He wrecks her due to his speed.

Don't be ridiculous. When has Obi-Wan wrecked anybody of Satele's class due to speed? With application of your lowball-style debating, given that various featless and slower characters than Satele have fought Obi-Wan, he would not be wrecking anybody here.

LOL, that was rhetorical quastion. But you failed to recognise that. Aren't you sorry that you utterly humiliated yourself?

No, I'm not sorry. You just made a fool of yourself yet again. That was not a rhetorical question by any stretch of the imagination. You ask for showings and you claim that it was a rhetorical question? You're an outrageous person, and what you just said is outrageous and ridiculous, so as I said to you before - aren't you sorry that you made a fool of yourself?

I also find it humorous that you ignore my questions and just repeat yourself, and then you use the same words that I used, in response to me, aimlessly.

Malgus is clearly much more powerful than Obi-Wan is, and she never fought Malgus in her prime.

And Vader is more powerful than Malgus in terms of Force, but Obi-Wan was able to fight with him.

Bad English doesn't explain why you responded to something that I didn't even ask. Tell me what you were referring to, so I can understand what you're saying. It's not difficult.

I did a mistake. But that mistake is not important for our debate.

As I said, you still lack basis for Obi-Wan being much faster than Satele.

Realy? Show me Satele beating or fighting on par with someone with Mauls speed. Show me where Satele demonstrated sub-light speed reaction. And i am still waiting for Eldon Axs speed feats. Read my post #63.

Not really. He isn't a particularly fast character, and certainly not faster than Satele. Why don't you answer the question, and give me feats from Savage to support your claim that he is faster than Satele?

I dont think he is faster than Satele. But he is still very fast. Faster than Eldon Ax. But, nevertheless, Maul speedblitzed him. And Obi-Wan fought Maul and Savage at the same time. And not just fought - he even hurt Savage. That is a great speed feat.

Don't be ridiculous. When has Obi-Wan wrecked anybody of Satele's class due to speed? With application of your lowball-style debating, given that various featless and slower characters than Satele have fought Obi-Wan, he would not be wrecking anybody here.

When has Satele wrecked, or beat anybody of Obi-Wans speed class? Malgus is slower than Obi-Wan and he managed to beat Satele twice.

No, I'm not sorry. You just made a fool of yourself yet again. That was not a rhetorical question by any stretch of the imagination. You ask for showings and you claim that it was a rhetorical question? You're an outrageous person, and what you just said is outrageous and ridiculous, so as I said to you before - aren't you sorry that you made a fool of yourself?

I also find it humorous that you ignore my questions and just repeat yourself, and then you use the same words that I used, in response to me, aimlessly.

I already knew about her feats. It was a rhetorical quastion. But you failed to recognise that. So i will ask you once more - aren't you sorry that you made a fool of yourself?

Your last quastion is not about our topic. I'll wait until you bring here some of Eldon Axs speed feats.

@sxe619: Ehm...you kidding?

Superior duelist beated superior Force user maybe?

@penderor: Show me once where Dooku used the Force on Anakin in that Ep. 3 fight. We all know that if Dooku wanted to, he could just choke Anakin and push him around with the Force, or even electrocute him. Besides, I fail to see how Dooku is similar to Satele in the first place.

@sxe619: First of all, he had no time as Anakin is around same speed as him. Also, its not that easy to choke someone who is not weaker in the Force by some drastic scale.

Satele wouldnt be able to Force choke Obi-Wan either. She even needed help two times against Malgus.

And yes, he is not similar to Satele. He is much better.

@jedisupermaster:

And Vader is more powerful than Malgus in terms of Force, but Obi-Wan was able to fight with him.

You mean when Vader never used the Force against him?

I did a mistake. But that mistake is not important for our debate.

I know you did. Why don't you just tell me what you were responding to?

Realy? Show me Satele beating or fighting on par with someone with Mauls speed. Show me where Satele demonstrated sub-light speed reaction. And i am still waiting for Eldon Axs speed feats. Read my post #63.

I don't have the quotes on-hand, but I recall Eldon Ax swinging her blade like a propeller, deflecting large amounts of blaster fire, reacting to and fighting Jedi and Mandalorians, moving in blurs, etc.

When has Satele wrecked, or beat anybody of Obi-Wans speed class? Malgus is slower than Obi-Wan and he managed to beat Satele twice.

So what? Malgus could beat Obi-Wan as well. Satele doesn't need to wreck somebody of Obi-Wan's speed class to stop herself from being blitzed, so as I said, you're an outrageous person who spouts outrageous things. Show me Kenobi blitzing anybody of Satele's speed class.

I already knew about her feats. It was a rhetorical quastion. But you failed to recognise that. So i will ask you once more - aren't you sorry that you made a fool of yourself?

No, you didn't. If you call that rhetorical question, which you're clearly doing out of shame now, those are by far the worst rhetorical questions in history.

As I said, you're just repeating what I say after ignoring me, so don't bother asking these questions unless you answer mine.

Dooku had plenty of time right in the beginning of the fight to utilize all of his force powers, but he did not.

Satele would be able to choke Obi-Wan. Why wouldn't she? She is much more powerful with the Force than he is. Just think about what Maul did to Kenobi.

You mean when Vader never used the Force against him?

And Malgus used The Force all the time against Satele, yeah?

I think that if he could beat her with Force, or she could, than they wouldnt fight in a close combat. The same situation with Vader. Vader is more powerful with The Force than Malgus but he had to fight Kenobi in a close distance.

I know you did. Why don't you just tell me what you were responding to?

Because it doesnt matter. It has nothing to do with our topic.

I don't have the quotes on-hand, but I recall Eldon Ax swinging her blade like a propeller, deflecting large amounts of blaster fire, reacting to and fighting Jedi and Mandalorians, moving in blurs, etc.

When you will have them on-hand, than we will talk. But as for now, i cant tell that Eldon is even faster than Savage Opress.

So what? Malgus could beat Obi-Wan as well. Satele doesn't need to wreck somebody of Obi-Wan's speed class to stop herself from being blitzed, so as I said, you're an outrageous person who spouts outrageous things.

Malgus was unable to beat some powerful force-users with just force. He always fought in a lightsaber combat. Obi-Wan is superior to Malgus. He is faster, more experienced and much more skilled with lightsaber.

But i must admit, Obi-Wan wont speedblitz Satele. With that i can agree. But he is more powerfull anyway.

No, you didn't. If you call that rhetorical question, which you're clearly doing out of shame now, those are by far the worst rhetorical questions in history.

As I said, you're just repeating what I say after ignoring me, so don't bother asking these questions unless you answer mine.

It was rhetorical quastion. And it was a good one. But you disagree. Well, i dont care. The fact is, you didnt recognise it as a rhetorical quastion. I can repeat that "fool" quastion, but i wont. That quastion has nothing to do with our topic anyway. So why bothering with it so much, Nova?

Bump.

Kenobi handily imo

Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan's got this.

Obi-Wan is not beating a Grandmaster, assuming both are in their primes.

A title means nothing.

Obi-Wan easily.

- even the rank of Jedi Master has huge implications

- as does the rank of a Council member

- but sure the rank of the leader of all living Jedi is meaningless, Yoda won it in a raffle ?

The fact Yoda is the Grandmaster isn't the reason he is the most powerful Jedi... the fact he is the most powerful Jedi is (part) of the reason he is the Grandmaster. Ergo, being the Grandmaster of one era does not automatically make you stronger than any other Jedi of your own era or of another era. Case in point... many Jedi believed the HoT was stronger than Satele, but they didn't automatically give the guy a promotion.

@i_like_swords:

No one is claiming that power/skill is what qualifies someone for a higher rank. Anyone who watched the prequels knows that power doesn't move you up in the Jedi Order -- maturity, wisdom, experience, knowledge, etc. Those traits make a Jedi Master, or Council member. Thus, why Anakin was still a Knight, despite his power being Council-tier. But this doesn't change the fact that within the Jedi, power and wisdom typically go hand-in-hand. Jedi Masters are not chosen for their battle prowess, but we know that those who are of that rank have exhibited exemplary skill and possess great power. Likewise, with the Council, the wisest Jedi of the era, these are lauded as the most skilled Jedi alive, amongst a plethora of other accolades regarding combative prowess.

As with those titles, the title of Grandmaster is not gained by being more powerful or more skilled than anyone else, although that is in fact almost always the power level of Grandmasters - rather, wisdom and often age determine this.

So you agree Satele being the Grandmaster doesn't automatically put her above Obi-Wan? All I needed, thanks.

@i_like_swords:

Never said that. Not once. To reiterate, being of high rank in the Jedi Order is not attained via exceptional battle prowess -- wisdom, age, maturity, and knowledge, rather -- but someone who is of high rank in the Jedi Order will in fact have exceptional battle prowess. For the requirements of a high rank more often than not go hand-in-hand with how powerful and skilled you are.