#1 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

So Mace Windu and company (Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, and Kit Fisto) have gone to arrest Palpatine. They arrive at Palpatine's office...only to find not Palpatine but Satele Shan backed up by the Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Emperor's Wrath, and Kallig II/Darth Nox. Mace and company barely have time to register what is transpiring before the five ignite their lightsabers.

Who wins?

#2 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#3 Posted by JamesKM716 (2018 posts) - - Show Bio

Satele and her team...

#4 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#5 Edited by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Umm....... why is Kallig and the Wrath with the Jedi? Anyways, Team 1 stomp in terms of Force power, saber combat is a stomp or a near-stomp in favour of Team 2.

Also, is there prep for Team 2? From the looks of it.....

Generally, I'd say Team 2.

#6 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: Teams in duels needn't be restricted by moral alignment.

Also, do Kallig, Emperor's Wrath, Hero of T. and Barsen'thor have any good lightsaber feats?

#7 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: They have duelling, battle feats, but since we don't know exactly how they fought, they can't be directly considered as "lightsaber feats". Although I would assume their battling with some powerful beings (with usage of a lightsaber) could count.

#8 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: Ah.

And do Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn have any lightsaber feats of note? Because neither one has ever struck me as all that impressive. True, losing to Darth Sidious is nothing to be ashamed of, but at least Kit has a lot of feats outside of his poor display in RotS. What to Tinn and Kolar have to their name if anything?

EDIT: And if nothing else I think its confirmed canon that Kallig II used his ancestor's "scorching lightsaber" (a curve-hilted lightsaber) which means he likely fought in a manner similar to Count Dooku, if not as well.

On top of that, because said lightsaber is only acquired if the Sith Sorcerer class is chosen, this would also mean Kallig's Force Lightning ability is better.

#9 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Both have survived the Battle of Geonosis and Saesee has stalemated Windu:

As for Kallig, simply wielding the same lightsaber design doesn't make you use the same form or have the same skill. Darth Bane is a prime example of this.

#10 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: That looked like a very casual practice spar to me, with neither of them trying very hard, but I suppose that is up for debate. Either way Mace lasted way longer against Sidious then Saesee Tinn did. And the "he was toying with him" argument doesn't work because he was toying with all of them. And yet Mace outlived all of his fellows. I suppose you could chalk that up to the "upgrade" Mace received during his duel.

And I never said Kallig's lightsaber skills were as good as Dookus. I just said they might use a similar style due to both having curved hilted lightsabers. In any event, I think its confirmed canon that he used a curve-hilted lightsaber and not a double-bladed one.

Also, what story is that duel from? I never knew Saesee Tinn used a purple lightsaber. I thought the only known prequel-era Jedi who used purple lightsabers were Mace Windu and Ki-Adi-Mundi before he switched to blue.

#11 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow said:

That looked like a very casual practice spar to me, with neither of them trying very hard. And Mace lasted way longer against Sidious then Saesee Tinn did. And the "he was toying with him" argument doesn't work because he was toying with all of them. And yet Mace outlived all of his fellows.

What? Looks doesn't really mean anything, where is your proof they were not going all out? Why did Mace outlive his fellows? Because Sidious did not target him. He kept him alive for Anakin. He could have killed Windu before he could react:

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

So..... your argument doesn't work.

And I never said Kallig's lightsaber skills were as good as Dookus. I just said they might use a similar style due to both having curved hilted lightsabers. In any event, I think its confirmed canon that he used a curve-hilted lightsaber and not a double-bladed one.

Confirmed canon? Where? And again, Darth Bane used Djem So but had a curve-hilted lightsaber.

#12 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: It might not be, but I noticed that on Wookiepedia's entry for Kallig's scorching lightsaber, it said that Kallig II also used it. But since that's Wookiepedia, who knows? Perhaps for simplicity's sake I'll specify that its Kallig's weapon in this fight.

@ShootingNova said:

What? Looks doesn't really mean anything, where is your proof they were not going all out? Why did Mace outlive his fellows? Because Sidious did not target him. He kept him alive for Anakin. He could have killed Windu before he could react:

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

So..... your argument doesn't work.

What do you mean looks don't mean anything? If character A is shown to be on the defensive for his entire duel with character B, then that suggests that character A is at least slightly inferior due to his being on the defensive the whole time. To say that looks don't mean anything is simply not true, although I will concede that in this scenario it is too ambiguous to say whether or not they're going all out. Because its debatable I'm going to withhold judgment on that scan.

And yet Mace lasted longer. Sidious went after Mace after killing the others. All four were surprised, and yet none of them lasted as long as Windu. They were surprised when Agen Kolar went down, and yet Saesee Tinn was killed in an instant before he could react while Mace Windu managed to hold his own, even after being "targeted" by Sidious. Sidious targeted all of them at some point or another because he was fighting all of them at some point or another. That said Mace doing better was likely due to the upgrade he received during the duel.

Also, this idea that he was "saving him" for Anakin comes off as ridiculous to me. Of course Palpatine does like his contrived schemes.

Finally, what story is that duel from? I never knew Saesee Tinn used a purple lightsaber. I thought the only known prequel-era Jedi who used purple lightsabers were Mace Windu and Ki-Adi-Mundi before he switched to blue.

#13 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Take Obi-Wan and Anakin then, for your A-B stuff.

And you still ignore canonical evidence and make up information. Sidious killed them all, Windu survived because Sidious wanted him to. He wanted him so he could turn Anakin to the dark side. Again, Sidious could have killed him prior to him reacting. Mace received a gargantuan amp, and Palpatine could have killed him with lightning any time he wanted.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

It seems Palpatine was preparing for that fight, anyways:

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; itwas the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.

-- Taken from Revenge of the Sith

#14 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: If I recall correctly, if you play as an Assassin, the "Scorching lightsaber" will become a double-bladed one.

#15 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: I am not making up information at all. Nor am I ignoring canon information. I acknowledged fully that Mace had an amp and Palpatine was toying with him anyways. I just also pointed out that Sidious was going in for the kill for all of those Jedi, and Mace lasted longer than the others.

How do Anakin and Obi-Wan enter into this ABC logic? We agreed that Anakin is approachable to Mace but not necessarily better. Honestly I'd say the same is true of Obi-Wan. Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Mace I would put at all around the same level. At least in terms of saber skills. How would you rank them?

And yes, if you play a Sith Assassin the lightsaber you get is double-bladed, but it is a different weapon from Kallig's scorching lightsaber. That is its own unique weapon. The double-bladed lightsaber is an entirely different one with their one similarity being that they both apparently once belonged to the original Kallig.

#16 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow said:

I am not making up information at all. Nor am I ignoring canon information. I acknowledged fully that Mace had an amp and Palpatine was toying with him anyways. I just also pointed out that Sidious was going in for the kill for all of those Jedi, and Mace lasted longer than the others.

And you have just contradicted yourself. This very post ignores what was said above. Palpatine was not going in for the kill for Windu. Again, Windu could have been killed before he could react. But Palpatine used Windu to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

How do Anakin and Obi-Wan enter into this ABC logic? We agreed that Anakin is approachable to Mace but not necessarily better. Honestly I'd say the same is true of Obi-Wan. Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Mace I would put at all around the same level. At least in terms of saber skills. How would you rank them?

Obi-Wan and Anakin are equals, Windu is slightly ahead (which is still debatable).

And yes, if you play a Sith Assassin the lightsaber you get is double-bladed, but it is a different weapon from Kallig's scorching lightsaber. That is its own unique weapon. The double-bladed lightsaber is an entirely different one with their one similarity being that they both apparently once belonged to the original Kallig.

Have you played TOR or what? Apparently, from Wookieepedia (yes, I don't want to use this source but I haven't played far into the Sith Inquisitor storyline in TOR and I've stopped playing TOR anyways) it just turns out to be double-bladed.

#17 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

And you have just contradicted yourself. This very post ignores what was said above. Palpatine was not going in for the kill for Windu. Again, Windu could have been killed before he could react. But Palpatine used Windu to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

I fail to see how Palpatine couldn't use any of the four Jedi for his little scheme. Why Mace? All Palpatine had to do would be to make himself look helpless and at a Jedi's mercy, doesn't matter which one. Do you at least have a canon source that explicitly states that Palpatine purposefully kept Mace alive and saved him for last? Because as it stands I judge that Palpatine had been going for the kill for all four, and decided to keep Mace alive for his plan when Mace happened to be the last one standing. If any of the other Jedi had happened to be the last one standing, Palpatine would have used them instead.

And I am not contradicting myself. I am simply acknowledging your argument and mine.

And you never did answer my question about what story that scan was from, or what's up with Tinn having a purple lightsaber.

@ShootingNova said:

Have you played TOR or what? Apparently, from Wookieepedia (yes, I don't want to use this source but I haven't played far into the Sith Inquisitor storyline in TOR and I've stopped playing TOR anyways) it just turns out to be double-bladed.

I think the double-bladed lightsaber also has a different name, which is why I consider them to be two completely different weapons.

#18 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Why did Saesee Tiin have a purple saber? Because he swapped his blade with Windu's. Also, yes, in the comics Saesee has a blue lightsaber.

There is no direct proof (as in directly saying "Palpatine set it up" and whatever), but, as posted above, Palpatine was long ago aware of both Anakin and the Jedi, so it seems he set it up. Palpatine could have killed Windu at any time with Lightning, and Mace required a gargantuan amp of both strength and speed (and skill) to stalemate Palpatine, and only in lightsaber combat.

#19 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@shroudofsorrow: Why did Saesee Tiin have a purple saber? Because he swapped his blade with Windu's. Also, yes, in the comics Saesee has a blue lightsaber.

OK that explains that then. But what story was it from?

PS: I posted another fight that I was hoping you could take a look at: Vitiate Vs. Mace Windu and company

#20 Edited by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by Silver2467 (16505 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

@shroudofsorrow: Why did Saesee Tiin have a purple saber? Because he swapped his blade with Windu's.

No, actually, Tiin originally had a violet lightsaber; Mace originally had a blue one. Tiin lost his original lightsaber during the Battle of Geonosis and constructed a new one after. Mace swapped out his blue blade in favor of his amethyst one between TPM and AotC.
#22 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: I thought Tiin entered the Concordance of Fealty..... no, that was Eeth Koth.

#23 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Tinn used a green lightsaber during the Battle of Geonosis.

And yes, Mace did have a lightsaber and switched to purple in-between TPM and AotC, but I still think the "they switched" argument makes more sense. If Tinn had a purple lightsaber during the Battle of Geonosis why was it green in the movie?

#24 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: How many threads do you make a day? I can't find your "Vitiate vs. company" thread.

#25 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: Its back a few pages. I think its currently on Page 3 or so.

And I make a lot of threads a day....I'm not the only one.

#26 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Okay.....

#27 Edited by Silver2467 (16505 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said:

@Silver2467: Tinn used a green lightsaber during the Battle of Geonosis.

And yes, Mace did have a lightsaber and switched to purple in-between TPM and AotC, but I still think the "they switched" argument makes more sense. If Tinn had a purple lightsaber during the Battle of Geonosis why was it green in the movie?

My mistake. He didn't lose his violet one during the Battle of Geonosis. He actually had already replaced his violet lightsaber with a blue-bladed one, but he lost his blue-bladed lightsaber on Geonosis and picked up a green one to fight with instead.
But, no, they did not trade for that spar. Why in the world would they trade lightsabers? Lightsabers, from a Jedi's view, is an expression of they are personally. Other Jedi's lightsabers can feel out of place in their hands. The scan posted is from the Infinity's End arc in Republic (though that particular scan is a little strange; it has a panel of Quin at the bottom even though that panel is not there in the comic...). Infinity's End was before Mace built his amethyst blade.
#28 Posted by ShootingNova (21397 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Okay, now this is off-topic. We are now discussing the colour of lightsabers....

Anyways, do you have an opinion on this fight, itself? Though I know better than to expect one.... considering who team 1 consists of.......

#29 Posted by sithlord_1 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

the thing you have to remember with any of this is the power that these ppl have within the force, mace windu would likely defeat most of the other team on his own as the further towards a new hope you get the stronger in the force the jedi become, same with a sith but as 1 team lived in 3000yrs in the past there power and connection to the force is lower than that of mace and co so to put them into a fight is only going to see 1 side win an thats the side with the most powerful ppl on it, mace may not have been as powerful as yoda but he would have been alot more powerful than setele shan even though she was a grandmaster of the jedi order in her day, but in mace's day he was somewhere between the 3rd or 4th most powerful person in the galaxy

#30 Posted by Darksider16 (19 posts) - - Show Bio

satele shans group