Saruman's army vs Sauron's army (movie versions)

Sauron and Saruman are fighting each other for control over Middle Earth, so they send their armies to kill each other. Sauron's army consists of ONLY Gothmog and the orcs from Pelennor Fields (there were about 200,000 orcs there) (no oliphaunts or men or trolls or catapults), and Saruman's force of 10,000 Uruk-Hai that attacked Helm's Deep and Lurtz (the Uruk-Hai that shot Boromir) come to meet them. Battle takes place in Pelennor Fields again, outside of Minas Tirith. Each army gets a day of rest/preparation so the Uruk-Hai and orcs can recover from traveling to Pelennor Fields. And because the Uruk-Hai are so heavily outnumbered, they are allowed to use explosives however they see fit.

The Uruk-Hai may be EXTREMELY outnumbered by the orcs, but they are superior to the orcs, and they have Lurtz, who was arguably the best Uruk-Hai there was. I think the Uruk-Hai have a chance at winning.

What do you guys think?

Bonus round: after the battle (regardless of whoever wins), Sauron and Saruman confront each other personally. Sauron reforms, finds his ring, and comes in his battle armor, while Saruman gets his staff back. Who wins?

1. Doesn't matter uruks are much stronger or formidable than orcs they are way outgunned here. They can overwhelm them easily.

2. They are heavily outnumbered

3. Sauron casually defeated Elindil the Tall, and was smashing aside groups of elves and humans in one shot, he also can't be killed by saruman since he is maia.

A depowered Sauron, in spirit only as the necromancer, stomped Gandalf the Grey whom was able to give saruman a good fight. Sauron at full power would take a dump on saruman.

Sauron came with a massive army of 200k. The Riders of Rohan with all their banner men met them amassing 60,000 riders to fight along side Gondors numbers. Even then they started getting overwhelmed.

The Army that took over helms deep was 10,000 Uruk-Hais and they were simply outclassed by Rohans 2000 riders.

@soaringturkeys:

The riders of Rohan wouldn't have gotten overwhelmed if the oliphaunts never showed up. They were winning before then.

Also, Lurtz has to count for something. He's basically the equivalent of an Uruk-Hai Aragorn, bloodlusted.

Sauron's army. I don't think a huge explanation is in order..

Nope. He doesn't count for anything.

2000 Riders completely decimated the Uruk Hai Army. The 60,000 Riders were all freaking themselves out by the time they saw what they were up against.

By your assumption. Take away all the other external forces. 2000 riders of Rohan can ride against 200,000 orcs and it would be a close fight?

This is a massive stomp. The Uruk Hai aren't that good for this to even be a remote challenge.

Sauron's army should win here. And Sauron, with the Ring of Power would destroy Saruman. It's pretty common knowledge that the Istari (saruman, gandalf, etc.) are lesser Maiar than the Ainur (sauron, melkor, etc.)

@teentitansfan94 Have you ever read any of Tolkien's books?

@ordinaryalan: I have read the books, but my question is based off of the movie versions because the movies are more well known than the books (when you think of LOTR, you probably think of Peter Jackson's movies first).

Yes, I'm saying that the Uruk-Hai could fight a much larger force. Think about this.

During the Rohirrim charge at Pelennor Fields, the orcs were already getting scared and starting to retreat before the horses even reached them. They are far less effective and disciplined than the Uruk-Hai. The Uruk-Hai only ran away after Gandalf kicked their asses at Helm's Deep. History and movies alike have shown that disciplined soldiers are capable of fighting much larger and weaker and less disciplined forces.

If 300 Spartans can hold out against a massive Persian army of thousands of soldiers, than why can't 10,000 Uruk-Hai hold against 200,000 mere orcs?

If 300 Spartans can hold out against a massive Persian army of thousands of soldiers, than why can't 10,000 Uruk-Hai hold against 200,000 mere orcs?

If holding it out means getting eventually slaughtered......then yes they will hold out very nicely. I see the Uruk-hai holding out for some time, but eventually numbers just make it too much of a difference. For every one Uruk-hai would have to kill 20 orcs a piece and that just isn't happening.

Then you even have Sauron coming out in the end with his ring and equipment against Saruman? I just see that going in Sauron's favor, as Saruman worked for Sauron and showed quite a deal of respect, mixed with fear, towards him.

@teentitansfan94:

So yes. You are effectively saying that 2000 riders of rohan could defeat Sarumans Army?

Um. No.

This is the Battle of the black gates. 7000 strong. There was only about 60,000 Orclings against them.

Now by your 'logic'. 2000 riders completely smoked 10,000 Uruk Hai. So With this photo. If you can imagine the size of this army to be about 3/5 smaller. And make the army x3 bigger.

And you think that the army can defeat this??? lol

Even with 7000 men they started getting overwhelmed by a for of 60,000 Orcs.

And no if you are going to use a reference, then make it applicable. There's nothing to suggest the Spartans battle had anything similar to this scenario.

@teentitansfan94:

The 300 soldiers were in a narrow mountain pass that forced the enemy to attack from one direction, which allowed the traditional greek phalanx formation to do what it does best. Defend from the front.

This battle takes place on Pelennor Fields, which means that Sarumon's forces will get surrounded and overwhelmed fairly quickly.

As for the bonus round, Sauron wins with absolute ease. It took the entire White Council to defeat Sauron's weak, ringless form. Sarumon alone isn't standing up to a full powered Sauron.

Team Sauron murder stomps

@soaringturkeys: I only meant they could hold out for a long time since they are stronger. Now I don't think they could win.

I'm not saying the Uruk-Hai could win, but I want the battle to be more even, and not a complete one-sided slaughter.

nope. it's a one sided slaughter. 7000 soldiers got easily overwhelmed by 60,000 orcs. It only took 2000 of those soldiers to absolutely humiliate 10,000 Uruk Hai. and your saying 200,000 Orcs wouldn't overwhelm them? Nope. This isn't even a close fight.

Total mismatch, the orcs are far far superior in numbers to the Uruk-Hai and these orcs soldiers who fought at Osgiliath, Minas Tirith and on the Pelennor Fields aren't that weaker compared to Uruk-Hai soldiers. Plus there are also Black Uruks and Half-Trolls among Sauron's army.

Plus Sauron even without the ring is far more powerful than Saruman.

Sauron's army.