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#51 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: Oi. You just wanked LOTR's feats and spat on mine by saying "There's no proof Dumbledore planned his own death"

Stop feat-wanking.

#52 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingofjohns, like I said despite on purpose or not either way it's dumb and further proves my point of Dumdledore being weaker then both Saruman and Gandalf but since this topic is just Saruman only, Saruman ;) Has nothing to do with "feat wanking" lol that doesn't even make sense. First you say "list feats" then when I do you say "feat wanking" your logic is beyond flawed and makes no sense. You're just pissy cause nobody else here agrees with you.

A feat? Yes, as in gaining YEARS upon YEARS of experience FAR more then Dumbledore has achieved not to mention throughout that time his power has grown greatly. Again, Gandalf still came back, for the millionth time nobody cares if Eru did it or some cosmic entity. Point is Gandalf CAME back! Dumdledore did NOT. What do you not get from the simple concept that a child can understand?

Well, you should as experience=half his feats. In case you're unaware the older you are, the more experience you have with life, fighting, battles etc. Example, Gandalf's experience fighting Dragons, wizards, armies, Sauron etc he has over the years where as Dumdle has what? Few hundred years max if that long teaching a bunch of children? Please...

It's a feat for Gandalf too, as again he's an immortal entity. Eru only allows it, but that technically doesn't involved Eru. But feel free to deny that according to you "everything Gandalf does is Eru controlling him" like a puppet or something, hardly the case...the only thing Eru is responsible for is A. making sure Gandalf came back and B. created Gandalf from the start being a Maiar. The most powerful one ever mind you...to fight Sauron.

And yes I am serious, but I also wasn't addressing you with that last point.

#53 Edited by theONEtaichou (1554 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: mate, you WILL not win. You have proved your case beyond a doubt, any reasonable person can summarily see your case and arrive to your conclusion (no offense to anyone). But as history has proved, those who want to believe something no matter what the contrary evidence/reasons/logic, will do so.

btw... Dumbeldore wins

#54 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

like I said despite on purpose or not either way it's dumb and further proves my point of Dumdledore being weaker then both Saruman and Gandalf but since this topic is just Saruman only, Saruman ;) Has nothing to do with "feat wanking" lol that doesn't even make sense. First you say "list feats" then when I do you say "feat wanking" your logic is beyond flawed and makes no sense.

Let's go over what you've done so far.

1. You've denied the evidence that Dumbledore planned his own death, even when the canon evidence was right infront of you. You kept going off into saying "Dumbledore was owned, Dumbledore was on, Dumbledore was owned".

Dumbledore is not weaker then Saruman or Gandalf. This is a weakened Dumbledore:

Plus, Dumbledore reacted to Voldemort's attacks at instant, too.

You're just pissy cause nobody else here agrees with you.

Multiple people have said Dumbledore stomps. Just look at the one above. You're rediculous, Vae.

A feat? Yes, as in gaining YEARS upon YEARS of experience FAR more then Dumbledore has achieved not to mention throughout that time his power has grown greatly

Yet, we do not know percise powers or abilities that would even help Gandalf here. Once his Staff is broken only thing he has is call eagles, he can easily be Langlocked before he could do that, then hit by a explosive spell. Goodbye, Gandalf.

Again, Gandalf still came back, for the millionth time nobody cares if Eru did it or some cosmic entity. Point is Gandalf CAME back! Dumdledore did NOT. What do you not get from the simple concept that a child can understand?

He came back once because Eru Illuvater still had Gandalf on his mission. If his mission was complete, Gandalf would have been like Saruman- wandering Middle Earth forever.

Well, you should as experience=half his feats.

Then this is going to get nowhere. Unless you have BATTLE FEATS then I can probably deciper a winner. Also, Dumbledore fought in a Wizarding war.

unaware the older you are, the more experience you have with life, fighting, battles etc. Example, Gandalf's experience fighting Dragons, wizards, armies

Show me Gandalf fighting a Dragon.

Show me Gandalf fighting other wizards.

Armies, I understand. But he only fought orcs with a glamdrig, nothing more, nothing less.

Sauron

.....You no nothing of LOTR. Gandalf can NOT face Sauron in combat. He said so himself.

he has over the years where as Dumdle has what? Few hundred years max if that long teaching a bunch of children? Please...

And being in a Wizarding war.

And owning the 2nd most powerful Dark wizard.

Casting Ancient protection spells over Hogwarts.

Mastering all charms and all most known spells.

Etc.

It's a feat for Gandalf too, as again he's an immortal entity. Eru only allows it, but that technically doesn't involved Eru. But feel free to deny that according to you "everything Gandalf does is Eru controlling him

I never stated this. I did state, however, that Gandalf was bought back by Eru and there's no indication he'd be brought back again. And, his Spirit is immortal.

hardly the case...the only thing Eru is responsible for is A. making sure Gandalf came back and B. created Gandalf from the start being a Maiar. The most powerful one ever mind you...to fight Sauron.

Yet, Gandalf himself said he can't fight Sauron. He was sent here to guide the peoples of Middle Earth, not fight Sauron.

And yes I am serious, but I also wasn't addressing you with that last point.

I'm not taking you seriously, anymore.

#55 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@ kingofjohns Ok, few things. For one, no I never denied anything I just said if Dumdledore "did" plan his death it proves nothing to your argument...where as Gandalf has come back. Saruman did not however...

Yes, Sauron is the one exception but he's also originally a maiar look it up, the difference is he's evil and Gandalf is good but still the only Maiar strong enough to fight against Sauron's will and stand up to him for centuries...

Yes, Dumbledore is far weaker then Gandalf. Saruman may be debatable but overall, no LOTR wizards>>>>HP Wizards. Fact.

You keep bringing up charms this, gems that lol that's the ONLY remote way Dumdledore can be competitive against superior wizards such as Gandalf and Saruman....

Good, I haven't been taking you seriously past few posts clearly you're a HP fanboy and can't see past the facts of LOTR wizards...

LOTR wizards>>>>HP that is all. I've already explained my reasoning, deal with it already.

#56 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

Ok, few things. For one, no I never denied anything I just said if Dumdledore "did" plan his death it proves nothing to your argument...where as Gandalf has come back. Saruman did not however...

You did. You kept saying "He got owned by some low teir witch". No, he planned his death.

Yes, Sauron is the one exception but he's also originally a maiar look it up, the difference is he's evil and Gandalf is good but still the only Maiar strong enough to fight against Sauron's will and stand up to him for centuries...

Yet, Gandalf was restricted from fighting Sauron, so we can't speculate on that.

Yes, Dumbledore is far weaker then Gandalf. Saruman may be debatable but overall, no LOTR wizards>>>>HP Wizards. Fact.

See, a FACT is something that can't be disputed in any way, shape, or form. Example: The sky is blue. Example: Humans have to eat. That's a fact. If you don't eat, you die.

I can easily dispte LOTR wizards >>>>> HP wizards.

Has a LOTR wizard ever reanimated anything?

Have they transfigured anything?

The great and mighty Gandalf needs FUEL for his fire. Dumbledore needs no fuel, and he's a master at Fire magic.

Really, Dumbledore can just reanimate a few hundread Statues and have them attack Gandalf. Gandalf can not fight giant statues. Yes, he defeated a featless Balrog, but reanimation is very featful. It has been used to block spells, defend Hogwarts, etc.

You keep bringing up charms this, gems that lol that's the ONLY remote way Dumdledore can be competitive against superior wizards such as Gandalf and Saruman....

Gems...? What? What, in all honesty, is GAndalf going to throw at Dumbledore? A fire ball?! Lol. A strike of lightning? Just get a flame-freezing charm and that stuff ain't effecting him one bit. I mean, what is Gandalf going to throw at him?

This battle is Saruman vs Albus Dumbledore. Let's not stray off topic.

Good, I haven't been taking you seriously past few posts clearly you're a HP fanboy and can't see past the facts of LOTR wizards...

Your the one who said Darth Sidious, the guy who strikes faster then Gandalf can even comprehend, would lose to the White. And you're calling me a fanboy? Please.

LOTR wizards>>>>HP that is all. I've already explained my reasoning, deal with it already.

Can I see battle feats?

#57 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously, you need to let this thread die...

No, i didn't i said again planning his own death proves nothing again and losing to a lower tier wizard, if dumbledore really was that powerful, he'd find another way to deal with it....he did not meaning hes obviously not that powerful.

Yes we can, gandalf factually was made to combat and lead the forces of good against sauron, so yes he did fight him just not so much "directly" but he did fight sauron in general. Both being maiars, one good, one evil...

yes, because gandalf the white is an entirely other animal, and sidious got shot in the back by hans solo, funny how you sw fans forget such...

yeah, gandalf came back from death...did dumbledore? nope..

Battle feats? uhh lotr, the hobbit, two towers, return of the king....clearly if you're asking for gandalf battle feats you've never read a lotr book...

so much for "not taking" me seriously huh? lol obviuosly serious enough to respond...i wouldnt call anyone a fanboy beng as how you think dumbledore and voldemort can beat gandalf the white....as the only rebel speaker in that thread trying to defend them

#58 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (487 posts) - - Show Bio

King, let it go. You can't fix stupid, people have been trying for eons. Fact is, this is almost a spite topic, it's so one-sided in Dumbledor's favor. McGonagall could beat Saruman. Sirius Could beat Saruman. any competent, adult HP wizard with rudimentary dueling skills could beat Saruman. By the end of book five, Hermione Granger could beat Saruman.

Non-magical begins threaten wizards in LOTR all the time. Goblins and orcs and whatnot. Saruman was killed by a scrawny little guy with a knife. He's a fantastic threat due to his political brilliance, his Uruk-Hai armies, and his much more subtle, manipulative magic. Unfortunately, that subtle, manipulative magic is fantastic when he's influencing the world from his comfy chair in Isengard. Not so much when your enemy is right in front of you and has magic that, even if it technically isn't more powerful than yours, is MUCH better suited for combat.

#59 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

^^^^

This is the perfect moment for this:

#60 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (487 posts) - - Show Bio

That directed at me? Come on, when has Saruman ever, in any of the books or movies, shown ANY actual combat feats other than thrusting his staff and creating a telekinetic push not much stronger than a heavy punch? A simple Stupify is better than that. He's not a fighter, he's a political leader and a manipulator and a commander of armies, which is what makes him so dangerous. If Legolas was standing in front of Saruman if the intent to kill him, Legolas would kill him.

Magic in LOTR is rarely used for direct combat purposes. More often it's used for buffing purposes or manipulating purposes. Even Gandalf the White rarely uses his magic to attack, he always falls back on his sword and using his staff more as a bludgeoning tool. Which, frankly, makes it bizarre and feel out of place when he DOES use his magic, however rarely, in combat. Like in the Hobbit when he catches pine cones on fire and throws them at the goblins. Seriously? Firt off, that's pathetic by HP standards, and second, why does he hardly ever do things like that when it would so often come in useful? I don't know, but at least I give these skills to Gandalf and say, theoretically he could call on them in battle, even if you can count the number of times he does on one hand. Saruman I give no such allowances.

#61 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't understand..do you? Gandalf and the other wizards were there only for guiding the people. When fighting against something stronger, gandalf, the same gandalf who ran away from orcs and goblins, fought a freaking balrog on his own. Tolkein's only problem is the lack of describing the fights. He doesn't describe the fights, the powers are implied. (Take the gandalf vs nazgul fight, only thing said is 'flashes of light'? Ugh.) This makes the characters unsuited for battle forums, but it doesn't make them any weaker.

#62 Posted by dondave (38505 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore

#63 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

I love it how some users call others "stupid" because of a lack of an argument lol. Too Funny...

Don't understand..do you? Gandalf and the other wizards were there only for guiding the people. When fighting against something stronger, gandalf, the same gandalf who ran away from orcs and goblins, fought a freaking balrog on his own. Tolkein's only problem is the lack of describing the fights. He doesn't describe the fights, the powers are implied. (Take the gandalf vs nazgul fight, only thing said is 'flashes of light'? Ugh.) This makes the characters unsuited for battle forums, but it doesn't make them any weaker.

As a fellow LOTR fan, do you get frustrated seeing people treating Gandalf and the Maiar in general like a scrub wizard. Plus, he only ran away from the orcs as a logical strategy to avoid further issues at the time(some people though some how see that as he was afraid of them and can't handle them, yet he took out a Balrog) lol. I agree about the details of the fights could be better described, but people should know what Gandalf and Saruman are being a Maiar which is far more powerful then Dumbledore.

#64 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (487 posts) - - Show Bio

We're not talking about Maiar Saruman. He's not a immortal angel here, he's a perfectly mortal man who happens to have some little fraction of his Maiar power.

The whole, retreating from orcs thing is stupid. What about when he was fighting in the war in Gondor and still did NOTHING except swing his sword around. People were dying all around him. Gandalf didn't consider that to be a worthwhile moment to use his magic? Or when they were in Moria and there were goblins and then a cave troll piling into that little room? The ring-bearer being in mortal peril wasn't a good enough reason to bring out some magic? But, hey, he's alone up on top of the mountain where the only one in peril is himself, fighting that Balrog, and NOW he feels the need to manipulate some lighting (I don't remember if he did that in the books or not, as it's been a while, but regardless). That doesn't make Gandalf a great strategist, it makes him a moron and a jackass.

Which I hate to say, because I really like Gandalf, but really Tolkien? Really?

Regardless however, we aren't talking about Gandalf here. Saruman is shown fighting once and only once. Against Gandalf. Using his movie showing, he does a grand total of three things. He does the telekinetic punch, he pulls Gandalf's staff out of his hand, and he levitates him off the ground. Oooooh...fancy. He has absolutely no combat feats outside of that. His voice has been shown to be resisted by those with a strong will, and even then if we're talking a Bloodlusted battle, the HP characters would tear him to shreds before he could get a word in edgewise. He is not a fighter. All of his magic was done while sitting on his butt in his castle. His magic bends more towards manipulation and puppeteering than combat. He isn't like Gandalf who has spent his time adventuring through caves and tricking trolls. Gandalf is a warrior. Gandalf is a fighter. Saruman is a politician at best. As far as I know, he never steps out of Isengard.

In a proper battle, where both characters are willing to go for the kill immediately, speed kills. Whatever Saruman could do, he wouldn't be able to do it before your average HP wizard with decent reflexes would just knock him out with a flick of their wands and one word. So yeah, Hermione Granger would decimate him unless he had prep time. Just like Legolas could kill him with one arrow whenever he wanted. Just like FREAKING GRIMA WORMTONGUE, who makes Peter Pettigrew look positively badass, jumped him and killed him with a knife.

Gandalf, perhaps not. He's a warrior, and is more used to things like that. But I hate judging Gandalf because his powers are written so inconsistently. Sometimes he seems like he could take someone on the level of Count Dooku (I won't say Sidious), while other times it seems like Boromir could match him.

The Maiar are presumably extremely powerful, but this is not them as Maiar. They are not as powerful, not even close, in their moral forms. Saying "oh, they're immortal angels who are incredibly powerful!" Though accurate, has no bearing on these battles unless it is stated that they are in their Maiar form (a battle which cannot really be made because we really have no idea how powerful they would be other than conjecture). That is not so here, thus they are in their human, wizard forms.

#65 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

LMAO at the people claiming that Saruman is universal or even planet level.

According to claims and lore, Saruman should curbstomp. However, there have been no displays or feats I am aware of that suggest he could beat Dumbledore at his best. I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong, but not until there is actual evidence of Saruman's might, or at least something to suggest it.

#66 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirish dude, Doesn't matter, Saruman's power is stronger then Dumbledore at the end of the day...he was giving Gandalf the Grey issues, which you rarely see. Dumbledore got wacked by a lower level wizard.

I doubt Saruman is "universal" lol neither of these guys are but still more powerful then Dumbledore.

#67 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor: What you are forgetting is, even in human form, when using their true strengths, they can cause devastating damage. Like Gandalf the Grey beating balrog. When they are not directly interfering with the 'no power usage, guiding only' policy, which seems to be the case in here, we have absolutely no idea how powerful they are. It doesn't matter if you think gandalf is a bad tactician. He was instructed by valar not to use his full strength, so he didn't. That's all.

#68 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (487 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus: First off, we have no idea how powerful the Maiar forms are. You can claim till you're blue in the face that Curumo and Olorin are this great power but at the end of the day that power is 1) untested, and 2) completely irrelevant. We are NOT discussing how much power the Maiar could theoretically have. We are discussing whether or not Saruman, in the restricted, physical form, who does NOT have access to this power, could beat Dumbledore. Which he cannot given what feats we have seen from him.

People give Gandalf trouble all the time. Even Gandalf the White. At ANY time during the battle at Gondor, a random Orc could have gotten him. In the movie one almost did if not for Pippin. Goblins from the Hobbit, book and movie, had him at wits end. Gandalf has awesome moments, but he is far from immortal. And despite what you say about Gandalf's ressurection, the fac that it was Eru who brought him back IS important because this means it had nothing to do with his own power. It's like if I got into a fight with Batman, and after getting the crap beaten out of me, Deathstroke killed Batman with a sniper shot. I can't claim to have beaten Batman. Deathstroke did. Similarly, Gandalf didn't ressurection himself, Eru did it for him. In a battle on these forums, Eru isn't around to revive these people, so the point is totally moot.

Regardless, Saruman's best combat feat is in his nothing fight with Gandalf, and his best magic feat is...I'd say creating the blizzard and causing a rockslide on the mountain above Moria. Hardly a feat that is useful in battle, considering the long chant it took, and another example of total inconsistency in the story. Helm's Deep is under a mountain. Why didn't Saruman rain rockslides down on them? It's head-scratching.

And regardless of how you refuse to see that Dumbledore arranged for his own death as a part of his great plan to stop the most powerful dark wizard who ever lived, regardless he did NOT get whacked by a lower level wizard. You intentionally refusing to see that doesn't make it untrue. What happened is Albus planned for Snape to kill him so that 1) Snape could keep up the facade of being Voldemort's servant, 2) to keep Draco from taking that final step down the dark path, and 3) to drive Harry to do what was necessary to beat Voldemort. A much more understandable and realistic reason for restraining oneself than (I'm not allowed to use my power to interfere unless necessary...there seems to be no actual guidelines for what defines necessary...and all this despite the fact that the whole reason I'm here in the first place is because I'm supposed to interfere). Tolkien is a great writer, but sometimes his logic sucks and he says things like "I can't really come up with a good reason as to why Gandalf's power varies depending on the demands of the plot, so here's a really shallow reason despite the real reason being because I say so".

@Prince: I love Gandalf and think he's a great strategist, from a military standpoint and a leadership standpoint, but when it comes to deciding when he can use his magic and when he cannot...there really is no logic or consistency. As for how powerful he can be, ala fighting the Balrog or the Nazgul, none of those events happened forums to see really. The Balrog fight happened on screen in the movies, at least a small part of it, but other than that, we see nothing. For all we know, his fight with the Nazgul could have been catching a tree on fire and fighting them no differently than Aragorn did.

#69 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor: What you're not getting is this: We've only seen gandalf when he was there just for guiding people. Even in that form, he can seemingly use much more power, as he can fight and beat balrog, which scared away hundreds of goblins. The characters are very inconsistant in power. Why won't saruman be able to do the same, as saruman is > gandalf the gray?(Note that aragorn didn't create flashes of light btw). We don't know how strong the characters are, when they're actually fighting for fight's sake, as they're meant to develope as implied powers. So it's a rather bad idea to put them in a forum which goes by feats.

Also, the eru's will. What you need to understand is eru is the top deity of a unideity fiction. Like toaa. Nothing in their fictional worlds happens without their will. Like, could banner throw a punch without toaa's wish? no. Could iron man's suit get power? no. Could morgoth rebel against eru without his wish? no. But the character's feats are always taken as individual. If the resurrection was done by a valar, It would mean that it wasn't gandalf's feat. But it was eru. You can't take out a character's feats and give it to him. Writer's incarnation in fiction, and other beings are entirely different.

#70 Edited by TheIrishDoctor (487 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@theirishdoctor: What you're not getting is this: We've only seen gandalf when he was there just for guiding people. Even in that form, he can seemingly use much more power, as he can fight and beat balrog, which scared away hundreds of goblins. The characters are very inconsistant in power. Why won't saruman be able to do the same, as saruman is > gandalf the gray?(Note that aragorn didn't create flashes of light btw). We don't know how strong the characters are, when they're actually fighting for fight's sake, as they're meant to develope as implied powers. So it's a rather bad idea to put them in a forum which goes by feats.

Also, the eru's will. What you need to understand is eru is the top deity of a unideity fiction. Like toaa. Nothing in their fictional worlds happens without their will. Like, could banner throw a punch without toaa's wish? no. Could iron man's suit get power? no. Could morgoth rebel against eru without his wish? no. But the character's feats are always taken as individual. If the resurrection was done by a valar, It would mean that it wasn't gandalf's feat. But it was eru. You can't take out a character's feats and give it to him. Writer's incarnation in fiction, and other beings are entirely different.

Killing the Balrog is an impressive feat. It's also something that someone like Dumbledore, who can manipulate the elements, teleport on the fly, and animate his surroundings, could do MUCH easier than did Gandalf. Movie-wise, the Balrog isn't even as dangerous as the Hungarian Horntail, and 4th year Harry survived against that.

Saruman being better than Gandalf is not necessarily true. He lead the order, and one can certainly suppose that his magic was stronger, but Gandalf surpassed him in terms of courage, tenacity, and warrior skill. Saruman only won his fight because his greater magic allowed him to disarm Gandalf in a straight power matchup. Gandalf was the more skilled and battle-hardened though. If Saruman went up against the Balrog, he might be powerful enough to fight it, but he wouldn't. More likely he would scream and run for his life. He's a coward.

Also, guess what, swinging around a torch in the dead of night is going to create flashes of light. Fire generates light, and swinging it around will make it flash. I know so many people interpret that as magical blasts or lightning or something, but there is no evidence that this is what happened. And since we know that fire repels the Nazgul and that Gandalf has been shown to be somewhat proficient in fire projection (at about 1/100th the level Dumbledore has shown), this is actually a pretty reasonable assumption. Even if that isn't what happened, since we didn't SEE what happened, there is no way of saying that what did happen is great enough to handle Dumbledore when nothing else shown in the books or movies was equal to things done by Dumbledore. At least not in his mortal form.

As for the "Eru controls everything and everything is done through his will, so the resurrection is still Gandalf's feat" thing. 1) That is a philosophical question that is FAR too complex for this simple forum, but as far as the forum is concerned, if the character didn't do it themselves, it's not their feat, and 2) There is a HUGE difference between TOAA "allowing" Hulk to throw a punch and Eru actually stepping in and doing something himself. You're equating "I'm letting this happen" with "I'm making this happen". The former is the feat for whomever he allows to do it, the latter is Eru's feat. 3) And most importantly, Eru is not really omnipotent and in control of everything. He's not depicted that way, and he IS depicted as having his mind changed by things and being capable of being talked to. Thus, he is not absolute. Thus, while he might be the creator of the LOTR universe, he is closer to someone like Jim Jaspers than TOAA. Which is...sort of odd given what Tolkien was trying to do, and given his own religious beliefs, but whatever.

As a final note, how this goes down is simple. In a battle where both combatants are capable of killing the other (and no matter what you say, Saruman was killed by Grima Wormtongue with a knife. He CAN be killed, pretty easily), it comes down to speed. Whichever can get to the other first will win. HP wizards teleport. They flick bolts that are either incapacitating or deadly non-verbally with a flick of their wrist. They manipulate the battlefield much easier than do either Gandalf or Saruman.

5 Aurors from HP standing on the top of the outer walls of Gondor would have changed that whole battle. They'd transfigure arrows into flowers, they'd animate statues to fight with them, they'd heal wounds, they'd set fire to the foe's equipment. It's not necessarily that they are more powerful than Gandalf or Saruman, it's that in battle they are FAR more quick and versatile with their magic. They are simply better suited for combat.

#71 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor: Your points are excellent. However, I have to disagree on the most. First, Dumbledore isn't beating a Balrog. They get stumped everytime they face ancient magic, there is no way they'll beat a walking creature of ancient world. Magic of hp has only shown to work on regular humans, and other creatures, never on anything that's above them. There is no need to assume that it'll work.

I personally don't think saruman would just scream and run, but I agree that he isn't as battle oriented as Gandalf is.

Swinging a torch doesn't make 'flashes of light'. It makes light alright, but I've yet to see a flashing torch.

There is literally no difference between the two. It's the writer's will that makes hulk throw a punch. It's also the writer's will that caused Gandalf to come back. It's the general setting of lotr verse, things that are bound to happen always do, like prophecies.

Eru is a literal God. Having his mind changed by talking doesn't mean he is not so. Every writer's concepts of how omnipotent should be are different, so they behave differently. He's creator of an entire verse, and the writer's incarnation in it. Jim jasper didn't create the marvel verse. Toaa did. Toaa is unchallenged as the writer's incarnation, I'm sure you already know that. He's the only one claiming the feat of creating a verse,like eru, or maybe tenchi, considering marvel follows one God system, too.

#72 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Well, according to what Militaris said, Balrog's have died by the hands of mortals multiple times. A lake killed a Balrog once..A lake. Why can't he just drench a Balrog in water and kill him?

If a lake killed a Balrog, I'm sure some water magic would.

#73 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor, First of all, anyone who reads LOTR knows a Maiar are the most powerful race below Eru. They're considered gods more or less to middle earth, and in Gandalf's case he's immortal in spirit so you can't really kill him. That alone proves they're more powerful then Dumbledore or anyone in HP for that matter. GTW never struggled with anyone outside of maybe a ring wrath/nazgu which he battled, who are tough for anyone to deal with being undead and no man can kill them...everyone else he murks though outside of Sauron directly being the one exception, but still...those who he's fought would demolish Dumbledore no question. But seriously, if you think Dumdledore would stand a remote chance against Sauron, Gandalf or Saruman one on one I'll just laugh...because that's going to be a rough day for Dumbledore.

Again, doesn't matter how Gandalf came back he did....Dumbledore didn't and again planning his own death proves nothing...if anything it proves he's weak and not too bright if he can't figure out an alternative plan with prep other then "killing himself" because that really helps win a war...lol

Actually, Saruman's best feat were magic summons and possessing, controlling the king until gandalf freed him from a ridiculous far, that's far more impressive then casting a spell and causing mountains to fall. Dumbledore hasn't done anything to match Gandalf or Saruman's better feats...and I totally agree with @princearagorn1that there's no way Dumdledore is beating a Balrog, I'm sure Saruman wouldn't either. I don't think either is nearly as good a fighter as Gandalf is honestly.

The only way gandalf's power alters is due to the interpretation of him in media. The movies he was powerful but no where NEAR as powerful as he was in the books...you people are judging him off of "movie alone" which is wrong considering what the character has done.

#74 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (487 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: I was going to let this go but...I really don't want to. First off, no, the Maiar are NOT the most powerful race below Eru, that would be the Valar. The Maiar are comparatively lesser. Although both are Ainur, the Valar are stronger Ainur. Not that this matters but...thought I'd set the record straight.

"Gandalf is an immortal spirit and you can't really kill him": WRONG! Gandalf, were he to take his full Maiar form, would be an immortal spirit and you wouldn't be able to kill him, as would Saruman. As of this battle, Saruman however is in his normal, mortal, human form. Just because he can POTENTIALLY be stronger than Dumbledore, does not mean that he IS. He is reduced and weakened when he walks middle earth, becomes mortal, and can VERY EASILY be killed. As shown when Grima Wormtongue does so. Seriously, think about that. Wormtongue killed Saruman. One of the most pathetic characters in literary history. SARUMAN AIN'T ALL THAT. This is book version, by the by, movies gives him a less shameful death, but still a weak one. Supposedly, as an immortal Maiar, he was not actually wiped from the world, but his power was totally broken, and his immortal spirit was no essentially impotent and would wander through wastelands for eternity. Depending on what you believe about the human soul, that makes him about as immortal as you or I. Immortal spirit, mortal body.

GTW has so few fights that I don't know how you can say he "merks everyone". There is no evidence of that whatsoever. He fights so few actual one-on-one fights. Aragorn also is shown capable of fighting off the Nazgul with just a torch and a regular sword. He can't kill them, but he can fight them off. Dementor's are essentially Nazgul x50 and Dumbledore could fend them off much easier than either Aragorn or Gandalf. Huge wall of fire, anyone? Other than this, GTW functions as just a hugely strong warrior in the battle of Gondor and the final battle outside of Mordor. Not much more impressive than Aragorn again. And if you say that Aragorn could beat Dumbedore, then I will laugh.

YES IT DOES MATTER HOW GANDALF CAME BACK. YOU CANNOT JUST HANDWAVE AWAY THE FACT THAT SOMEONE ELSE DID IT FOR HIM! When you try and say that it doesn't matter that Gandalf himself had nothing to do with bringing himself back to life, it sounds like you so badly want Gandalf to win that anytime someone gives you a reason as to why his feat is invalid, you just want to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH! NOT LISTENING!!!" And while PrinceAragorn1 brings up an interesting philosophical question as to whether or not the acts of God allow a person to take any credit for their own lives and whatnot, in this case it is rendered invalid because Eru doesn't allow Gandalf to come back under his own powers, he steps in and directly intervenes to bring Gandalf back to life. He stops being the allmighty spectator and acts. Thus Gandalf's return to life is NOT Gandalf's feat, IT'S ERU'S.

If you personally feel that Dumbledore's plan to have Snape kill him makes him weak, that is fine. I disagree, I think that it makes him a very strong character, as it shows that he is willing to give his life for his students and for the greater good, but whatever, to each his own. However, what it has NO bearing on, is this battle. Dumbledore had been cursed and had only a few months to live anyways, and he had just run a dark magic gauntlet that would have killed anyone else, but which he was not only able to survive, but retain enough strength to fight off an army of undead. After all of this, he still had the strength of mind and character to bluff his way through a wall of Death Eaters and make sure that Snape keeps to the plan to kill him. Personally, I find that really freaking impressive.

Saruman's feats are I guess subjective. Personally I find bringing down the mountain from a long distance to be more impressive than mind-controlling one guy from a long distance. Especially when he was only able to control the guy with the help of the Palantir. Either way, nothing that Dumbledore woudn't be able to deal with in a straight fight.

"There's no way Dumbledore is beating a Balrog": Which is why normal, non-magic mortals have done it before, right? Because they are SO impressive. Face it, naming something as a demon doesn't make it extremely powerful. The Balrogs' feats really aren't that impressive. Dumbledore would be able to take one down no problem. Hydrokenisis, Reducto, he's got a hundred different spells that would likely destroy a Balrog. And even if he DID have to wear one down, what's the Balrog going to do while he's teleporting all over the place, eh? Speed kills.

I am NOT judging Gandalf based on the movies. I've read every book, including the Silmarillion, and the Hobbit and the trilogy a couple times each. I know them. I know what Gandalf is doing. YOUR mistake is that you are using the power of Maiar Gandalf, which is presumably great but completely undefined really, and applying it to this argument.

Let me put it this way...in his Maiar form, Gandalf's name is Olorin, and Saruman's name is Curumo. Just as Gandalf the White is different from Gandalf the Grey, so is Olorin different from either of them. We are judging Saruman, not Curumo, and Gandalf, not Olorin.

Here's how I would put it...

Olorin>=Curumo>>>>>>>>>Dumbledore>=Gandalf the White>>>Saruman>>>Gandalf the Grey.

#75 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: I was going to let this go but...I really don't want to. First off, no, the Maiar are NOT the most powerful race below Eru, that would be the Valar. The Maiar are comparatively lesser. Although both are Ainur, the Valar are stronger Ainur. Not that this matters but...thought I'd set the record straight.

Vala and maiar are differentiated only in power. I don't recall any mention that the two are different species altogether.. As you said, Ainur are directly below to eru, consisting of valar, maiar and those who didn't enter earth.

#76 Edited by TheIrishDoctor (487 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Yes, that's what I said. Both are Ainur, and the AINUR are the most powerful race below Eru. Maiar aren't even a race. He said that the Maiar are the most powerful race below Eru. If he's assuming Maiar are a race in and of themselves, then he's wrong because they are not a race and even if they are, the Valar are stronger. If he meant that the Maiar are the most powerful things in general below Eru, than he's wrong because the Valar are stronger. If he just meant that the Maiar are members of the most powerful race below Eru, then he's right, but stated it incorrectly.

#77 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

Saruman, he defeats Gandalf the Grey!

#78 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Yes, that's what I said. Both are Ainur, and the AINUR are the most powerful race below Eru. Maiar aren't even a race. He said that the Maiar are the most powerful race below Eru. If he's assuming Maiar are a race in and of themselves, then he's wrong because they are not a race and even if they are, the Valar are stronger. If he meant that the Maiar are the most powerful things in general below Eru, than he's wrong because the Valar are stronger. If he just meant that the Maiar are members of the most powerful race below Eru, then he's right, but stated it incorrectly.

ok..

#79 Edited by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, well if I learned anything in this thread, it's that vaeternus is too much of a fanboy to be commenting on any LOTR vs anything else threads.

#80 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio
#81 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: Why didn't you ever post Dumbledore's most impressive battle feat?

#82 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor, incorrect. Maiar are the most powerful race under Eru as it states in the books and the LOTR wiki(which is accurate) they're seen as gods to everyone else, in gandalf's case he's immortal. He still came back again nobody cares how or why, plus Gandalf in spirit can't really die anyway...

Like prince stated, they're only different via power levels but the Maiar are seen as the angelic race of LOTR created by Eru. If you think otherwise you're wrong.

Again, despite whether or not Dumbledore "planned" his own death or not is irrelevant and proves nothing here...

At the end of the day, Gandalf The White>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else in LOTR(except Sauron) and definitely HP. No contest.

#83 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24:

But then, through the darkness, fire erupted: crimson and gold, a ring of fire that surrounded the rock so that the Inferi holding Harry so tightly stumbled and faltered; they did not dare pass through the flames to get to the water. They dropped Harry; he hit the ground, slipped on the rock, and fell, grazing his arms, then scrambled back up, raising his wand and staring around.

Dumbledore was on his feet again, pale as any of the surrounding Inferi, but taller than any too, the fire dancing in his eyes; his wand was raised like a torch and from its tip emanated the flames, like a vast lasso, encircling them all with warmth.

The Inferi bumped into each other, attempting, blindly, to escape the fire in which they were enclosed...

Dumbledore scooped the locket from the bottom of the stone basin and stowed it inside his robes. Wordlessly, he gestured to Harry to come to his side. Distracted by the flames, the Inferi seemed unaware that their quarry was leaving as Dumbledore led Harry back to the boat, the ring of fire moving with them, around them, the bewildered Inferi accompanying them to the waters edge, where they slipped gratefully back into their dark waters.

Harry, who was shaking all over, thought for a moment that Dumbledore might not be able to climb into the boat; he staggered a little as he attempted it; all his efforts seemed to be going into maintaining the ring of protective flame around them. Harry seized him and helped him back to his seat. Once they were both safely jammed inside again, the boat began to move back across the black water, away from the rock, still encircled by that ring of fire, and it seemed that the Inferi swarming below them did not dare resurface.

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

That is a WEAKENED Dumbledore. This is the most impressive feat for a weakened Dumbledore. It's beyond my comprehension what a strong Dumbledore could do.

#84 Posted by HigorM (4042 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore without a doubt. He´s at a higher level of sorcery..

#85 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24:

But then, through the darkness, fire erupted: crimson and gold, a ring of fire that surrounded the rock so that the Inferi holding Harry so tightly stumbled and faltered; they did not dare pass through the flames to get to the water. They dropped Harry; he hit the ground, slipped on the rock, and fell, grazing his arms, then scrambled back up, raising his wand and staring around.

Dumbledore was on his feet again, pale as any of the surrounding Inferi, but taller than any too, the fire dancing in his eyes; his wand was raised like a torch and from its tip emanated the flames, like a vast lasso, encircling them all with warmth.

The Inferi bumped into each other, attempting, blindly, to escape the fire in which they were enclosed...

Dumbledore scooped the locket from the bottom of the stone basin and stowed it inside his robes. Wordlessly, he gestured to Harry to come to his side. Distracted by the flames, the Inferi seemed unaware that their quarry was leaving as Dumbledore led Harry back to the boat, the ring of fire moving with them, around them, the bewildered Inferi accompanying them to the waters edge, where they slipped gratefully back into their dark waters.

Harry, who was shaking all over, thought for a moment that Dumbledore might not be able to climb into the boat; he staggered a little as he attempted it; all his efforts seemed to be going into maintaining the ring of protective flame around them. Harry seized him and helped him back to his seat. Once they were both safely jammed inside again, the boat began to move back across the black water, away from the rock, still encircled by that ring of fire, and it seemed that the Inferi swarming below them did not dare resurface.

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

That is a WEAKENED Dumbledore. This is the most impressive feat for a weakened Dumbledore. It's beyond my comprehension what a strong Dumbledore could do.

I was referring to the fight at the MoM in Order of the Phoenix when he took out all of the death eaters and easily defeated Voldemort.

#86 Posted by ShadowPro (1793 posts) - - Show Bio

dubledore, not question

#87 Posted by MetalJimmor (1261 posts) - - Show Bio

To the people arguing a year ago, Dumbledore definitely did fake his death. This was flat out confirmed in the books and movies. I'm... Not sure how one could argue otherwise.

That being said I believe Sarumon should have the power to defeat Dumbledore, but not necessarily the combat ability. Sarumon was able to defeat Gandalf the Grey, true, but it wasn't necessarily due to Sarumon being superior to Gandalf as a battlemage. Sarumon had authority over Gandalf, which is why Sarumon was able to take Gandalf's staff and imprison him without worry of Gandalf's escape. By feats Sarumon was never a direct fighter. He didn't go on adventures like Gandalf did, never participated in combat like Gandalf did, and his specialty in magic was ring lore and in making things. Sarumon's power was in his voice and his knowledge of how to create powerful artifacts. Meanwhile Gandalf specialized in magic of fire, smoke, and light, and preferred to be on the front lines even if he was not allowed to use his magic to directly counter Sauron's will. By DnD standards, Sarumon was more of a bard and artificer who put all his skill points into being able to create powerful gear for the party and break the game by exploiting his stupidly high Charisma score, while Gandalf the Grey was more a wizard/fighter hybrid who focused on utilizing his swordplay for combat and magic to give him more utility and combat effectiveness.

By feats Gandalf the Grey should've wrecked Sarumon in a fight. He just wasn't able to because Sarumon was of a higher order than he was. Dumbledore isn't bound to that restriction and should be able to overcome Sarumon's power with superior combat abilities and direct skills.

@kingjohnrocks:

For the record though, Sarumon's voice is definitely divine in nature. Even when stripped of his authority and his power he still retained his voice as it was an innate ability of his, not a spell. So there is a strong chance Dumbledore could fall for Sarumon's voice. It's impossible to outright prove either way though, and Sarumon would have to be able to get off a full sentence to actually use it on Dumbledore anyway. Like Aragorn said, you had to take Sarumon down before he could speak or you'd fall under his sway, but he did have to speak to do it.

Unless Sarumon opens the fight with telekinetically stealing Dumbledore's wand I just don't see him holding out long enough for his Voice to come into play.

#88 Posted by Eisenfauste (8352 posts) - - Show Bio

Saruman rips his wand out of his hand and then smacks him around.

#89 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

That being said I believe Sarumon should have the power to defeat Dumbledore, but not necessarily the combat ability

And that's the issue here. This is a combat situation, in combat Dumbledore has more feats(single handedly defeated many Death eaters and easily dealt with Voldemort, waring him out while he was not even trying to kill him, creating huge firestorms, summoning fawks, former transfiguration instructor thus master in transfiguration, wide variety of spells, having access to spells that no one has even heard of or used, teleporting and apparating at instant, creating gold shields powerful enough to hold up against Voldemort's magic and protect harry, casting spells wordlessly, wandless magic etc etc) than Saruman will ever have. That is a fact.

Sarumon was able to defeat Gandalf the Grey, true, but it wasn't necessarily due to Sarumon being superior to Gandalf as a battlemage. Sarumon had authority over Gandalf, which is why Sarumon was able to take Gandalf's staff and imprison him without worry of Gandalf's escape.

Pray tell how Dumbledore has authority over Saruman. The only reason Saruman had authority over Dumbledore is because they were in the same order and Saruman was the head of it. When Gandalf ascended to the head, he had power over Saruman and kicked him out of the order by breaking his staff.

"'I did not give you leave to go,' said Gandalf sternly. 'I have not finished. You have become a fool, Saruman, and yet pitiable. You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots. Stay then! But I warn you: you will not easily come out again. Not unless the dark hands of the East stretch out to take you, Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.' He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet. 'Go!' said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away."

- Lord of the Rings; The Two Towers.

So as you see, it is evident the head wizard of the White order has authority over all members, that was very evident in Saruman's case.

For the record though, Sarumon's voice is definitely divine in nature.

Proof? Nowhere does Tolkien classify Saruman's voice as "divine."

. Even when stripped of his authority and his power he still retained his voice as it was an innate ability of his, not a spell. So there is a strong chance Dumbledore could fall for Sarumon's voice.

There is not a chance. Dumbledore has apparated at second, dissolved giant snakes with the jerk of his wand, created fire storms, shot out spells without even speaking, telekentically manipulated objects, gone invisible without an invisibility cloak, has master transfiguration and so forth. Saruman won't even see Dumbledore's spells coming, he'll be incapaitated too fast.

It's impossible to outright prove either way though, and Sarumon would have to be able to get off a full sentence to actually use it on Dumbledore anyway. Like Aragorn said, you had to take Sarumon down before he could speak or you'd fall under his sway, but he did have to speak to do it.

No, it's not impossible to disprove the notion that there's a strong chance Dumbledore will succumb to Saruman's voice. by feats alone Saruman isn't even /reacting/ to Dumbledore.

Unless Sarumon opens the fight with telekinetically stealing Dumbledore's wand I just don't see him holding out long enough for his Voice to come into play.

If he could even tag Dumbledore, which he could not.

@eisenfauste

What is this idoicy? If anything, all that needs to happen is for Dumbledore to use a freezing charm and "Saruman" is gone.

This had no reason to be brought back. Dumbledore stomps.

#90 Posted by MetalJimmor (1261 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks:

Did you not read my post? I said Sarumon DOES NOT have authority over Dumbledore and thus can't defeat him the same way he defeated Gandalf. You might want to slow the Hell down and read what the person wrote before replying to them so angrily.

By feats Gandalf the Grey should've wrecked Sarumon in a fight. He just wasn't able to because Sarumon was of a higher order than he was. Dumbledore isn't bound to that restriction and should be able to overcome Sarumon's power with superior combat abilities and direct skills.

#91 Posted by Eisenfauste (8352 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: Awwww did I rustle someone's jimmies? I'm sorry last time I checked these were fictional characters we debate, nothing to get irritated about. My comment was a comment, if you don't like it than move on, I have nothing more to say to you.

#92 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: I read your post and understood fully. I was just setting the record straight.

#93 Edited by MetalJimmor (1261 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks:

What record? The quote you provided literally supports what I said, which you seemed to be disagreeing with. I said Sarumon defeated Gandalf the Grey because he had authority over him, and that he couldn't do the same to Dumbledore. Absolutely nowhere did I imply Sarumon had authority over Dumbledore, or that Dumbledore had authority over Sarumon.

My proof that Sarumon's voice isn't tied to his magic is because he had this ability even after Gandalf broke his staff and stripped him of his power. It's an intrinsic ability of Sarumon that doesn't follow the rules of normal magic on Middle Earth.

No, it's not impossible to disprove the notion that there's a strong chance Dumbledore will succumb to Saruman's voice. by feats alone Saruman isn't even /reacting/ to Dumbledore.

Yes, it is impossible to prove. Sarumon's voice has never met a spell that is suppose to resist mental invasion, and the HP spell has never shown that it can resist a form of mental invasion that isn't the specific spell used in Harry Potter to invade minds. Trying to argue about this will just end up in and endless circular debate where we bring up the same points and never get anywhere.

Also, Dumbledore isn't speed blitzing Sarumon the way you're claiming. I know what you're going to do. I've seen you debate this before. No, Rowling using the phrase "In an instant" does not mean Dumbledore literally has instantaneous reaction time and combat speed. He has the speed and reflexes of a normal human as nowhere in Harry Potter does it say the characters are above human in any physical category. He can certainly fire off spells quickly, yes, and he has an impressive range of abilities, but he isn't attacking before Sarumon can process he's under attack.

Now I already said Dumbledore will likely win this. Sarumon has not shown any defensive abilities, and has no interest in combat magic. Dumbledore is much more focused on dueling, and has a much more versatile powerset as well as much more sheer destructive power. I fully believe Dumbledore will overwhelm Sarumon quickly and early on before Sarumon goes for the wand grab or utters a sentence to force Dumbledore to stop.

Dumbledore wins a solid 8/10 most likely, where the 2 Sarumon wins are the times he opens the fight with a disarming telekinetic glance.

#94 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, it is impossible to prove. Sarumon's voice has never met a spell that is suppose to resist mental invasion

So because he has not met a defense/mechanism that can put a barrier against his mind control(because that's basically what it is) what does that mean? I don't want to misrepresent your position but you're really making no sense here, so I'l wait til you respond to this before making accusations.

and the HP spell has never shown that it can resist a form of mental invasion that isn't the specific spell used in Harry Potter to invade minds

That's actually untrue. Voldemort has been shown to invade the minds of his victims through methods without spells which included reading, controlling, and unhinging his victim's minds. Snape was training Harry to also resist that.

Severus Snape: "It appears there is a connection between the Dark Lord's mind and your own. Whether or not he is aware of this connection is for the moment unclear. Pray he remains ignorant."
Harry Potter: "You mean if he knows about it, then he'll be able to read my mind?"
Severus Snape: "Read it, control it, unhinge it. In the past it was often the Dark Lord's pleasure to invade the minds of his victims, creating visions designed to torture them into madness. Only after extracting the last exquisite ounce of agony, only when he had them literally begging for death would he finally...kill them."
-Taken from: Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
"Read it, control it, unhinge it" - Snape, Taken from Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Now, let us keep in mind, the entire chapter was about prepping up Harry's defense against the "Dark lord", through what? Occulemncy. It is clear that occlumency provides a shield from mental flicks such as the one Voldemort has been described as doing.

Also, Dumbledore isn't speed blitzing Sarumon the way you're claiming. I know what you're going to do. I've seen you debate this before. No, Rowling using the phrase "In an instant" does not mean Dumbledore literally has instantaneous reaction time and combat speed.

Dumbledore has been shown to apparate very quickly and so quickly that he almost caught Voldemort off guard. With the way Dumbledore shoots out spells and travels incredibly fast in battle, Saruman won't be able to keep up. He's never fought anything at Dumbledore's level before.

Voldemort raised his wand and another jet of green light streaked at Dumbledore, who turned and was gone in a whirling of his cloak. Next second, he had reappeared behind Voldemort and waved his wand towards the remnants of the fountain. The other statues sprang to life.

-Harry Potter and the Order of the phoenix, Chapter 36.

So practically, within no time Dumbledore has the ability to appear behind or near Saruman and catch him off guard. Now, from what we know this vague, yet incredibly specific speed can't be denied. This is obviously beyond anything Saruman has faced and if Dumbledore is apparating and appearing second after second and letting out spells then Saruman is done. If you can show me Saruman fighting something like that and surviving then I'l put down my expectations for Dumbledore.

He has the speed and reflexes of a normal human as nowhere in Harry Potter does it say the characters are above human in any physical category

I'm sure a normal human can apparate and appear at next second with no strain, continue to let out spell after spell, maintain a Golden shield while fighting an incredibly powerful dark wizard and so forth. While he may not have superhuman speed, his magic and teleportation(which he used alot in combat) will make him unbareable to Saruman, unless you can show me Saruman reacting and keeping up with something like that.

He can certainly fire off spells quickly, yes, and he has an impressive range of abilities, but he isn't attacking before Sarumon can process he's under attack.

OK, that's fair. So the only thing that I ask is that you show me Saruman reacting to a spell-firing, second-apparating Wizard and being able to tag him in combat. I mean, surely you have some factual basis of Saruman's encounter with such a being, or else you couldn't possibly factually make the statement that Saruman can attack Dumbledore faster than he can process he's under attack. He hasn't that sort of reaction speed.

Now I already said Dumbledore will likely win this. Sarumon has not shown any defensive abilities, and has no interest in combat magic. Dumbledore is much more focused on dueling, and has a much more versatile powerset as well as much more sheer destructive power. I fully believe Dumbledore will overwhelm Sarumon quickly and early on before Sarumon goes for the wand grab or utters a sentence to force Dumbledore to stop.

Then there's no reason to continue this, I'm just setting the record straight on a few things and misconceptions about HP, which your post had some of. But that's OK, I won't ridicule you for that.

@metaljimmor