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#1 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

Location:

Equipment:

  • Standard gear for both combatants.

Rules:

  • Morals are on.
  • Standard Battle Forum rules apply
  • No blade mode
  • X is Jack, Y is Raiden. It's in broad daylight, but no one is near the stadium.
#2 Posted by reaperOnyx (1157 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought it was raiden from mortal kombat, but I have to go with Raiden on this one.

#4 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought it was raiden from mortal kombat, but I have to go with Raiden on this one.

Have to say Raiden due to his super human speed but the water drop scene from Samurai Jack is making me lose faith though I'm gonna stick with my guns and say Raiden.

You both are doing this wrong.

You wait until AFTER the debate to start voting, and you also read both sides of the debate. please delete your posts and then wait until after.

#5 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20429 posts) - - Show Bio

LET'S GET READY TO RUUUMMMMBBBLLLEEEEE!!!

#7 Posted by reaperOnyx (1157 posts) - - Show Bio

wait if you think jack owns, why would you put this up.

#8 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2985 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Oh okay, I was kind of uncertain as to what it was, since I haven't played the game myself.

#10 Edited by dondave (38818 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good

#11 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by bazuden (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting match up. I believe both were intensely trained throughout childhood, however Jack was trained by the greatest warriors around the world, so he may have a larger skill set. However Raiden's training was not hampered by morales, making him more savage. Raiden's strength and speed would far exceed Jack's, but Jack has defeated many opponents much stronger and faster than he. Good example would be the Ultra robots. Granted, he had the aid of a power gauntlet, he was outnumbered 7 or 8 to one. Plus, Jack knows water bettle.

I have to admit that I'm biased towards Jack, as its my favourite cartoon series, and this is my first time posting on a battle, so apologies if I'm not doing this right, or if my information is incorrect.

#13 Posted by NeonGameWave (8503 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be interesting and awesome.

#14 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals on, then Jack stomps

#15 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

I love samurai jack, much more than raiden. But...Raiden is stupidly overpowered. The guy can lift and toss a few hundred tons like it was a baseball and doges bullets casually. IMO, the speed factor is the same on both ends, but Jack just isn't anywhere near that physically powerful.

#16 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

I love samurai jack, much more than raiden. But...Raiden is stupidly overpowered. The guy can lift and toss a few hundred tons like it was a baseball and doges bullets casually. IMO, the speed factor is the same on both ends, but Jack just isn't anywhere near that physically powerful.

Like Jack hasn't fought against stronger enemies before?? lol

#18 Posted by nickzambuto (14465 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo said:

@nickzambuto Once again, the floor is all yours.

Sure, I'll open this up as soon as I get some free time :)

@p0rtal said:

I love samurai jack, much more than raiden. But...Raiden is stupidly overpowered. The guy can lift and toss a few hundred tons like it was a baseball and doges bullets casually. IMO, the speed factor is the same on both ends, but Jack just isn't anywhere near that physically powerful.

Like Jack hasn't fought against stronger enemies before?? lol

Like Raiden hasn't fought stronger enemies before and won. Only Jack isn't stronger (more detail when I get my post up)

#19 Edited by INFINITE_DOOM (273 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals on, pure skills, Jack stomps

#20 Edited by bazuden (7 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Jack often uses his opponent's strength against them. That's how he's able to defeat stronger and larger opponents. In the episode where Jack helps the Scotsman rescue the Scotsman's wife he demonstrates this technique, when Jack tosses the biggest clan member much farther than Jack was able to toss a giant boulder. Jack would try to use Raiden's strength against him.

This goes back to one of the points in my earlier post: Jack learnt a myriad of techniques from all the greatest warriors of his time. This knowledge is one of his greatest assets.

#21 Posted by nickzambuto (14465 posts) - - Show Bio

@bazuden said:

@nickzambuto: Jack often uses his opponent's strength against them. That's how he's able to defeat stronger and larger opponents. In the episode where Jack helps the Scotsman rescue the Scotsman's wife he demonstrates this technique, when Jack tosses the biggest clan member much farther than Jack was able to toss a giant boulder. Jack would try to use Raiden's strength against him.

This goes back to one of the points in my earlier post: Jack learnt a myriad of techniques from all the greatest warriors of his time. This knowledge is one of his greatest assets.

As if Raiden isn't just as skilled.

Please stop interfering with the debate.

#22 Posted by progenitor (7551 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd love to see Samurai Jack go up against Senator Armstrong, or Monsoon. NANOMACHINES, SON.

#23 Posted by bazuden (7 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Apologies. I'm new here. Wasn't my intention to interfere, just interested in this Thread, and wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

#24 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

It's been a while, but I see Nick is still a huge MGS fan.

#25 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

Okay f*ck this, not waiting anymore.

Jack cuts raiden in half due to the fact he can keep up and will have no trouble reacting to Raiden since he's shown that he has bullet time reaction speed. He also can cut Raiden's blade in half due to the fact that his sword is indestructible and has been able to cut through futuristic tech and steel with ease.

#27 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12373 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure I debated this with NickZ a while ago.....

#28 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure I debated this with NickZ a while ago.....

Does that really matter?

#29 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12373 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo said:

@ancient_0f_days said:

I'm pretty sure I debated this with NickZ a while ago.....

Does that really matter?

well, it might make your job easier.........

#30 Edited by Raw_Material (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a great fight! I've already made a battle thread similar to this one and in turned out to be a very evenly matched fight. However, my edge will have to go to Metal Gear Raiden and his weaponry and agility.

#31 Posted by XLR87T3 (2999 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @walzo :because he used logic. For example, two people with very even stats, like reflexes, speed, durability. One of them has considerably superior strength, but the other has an ability that completely trumps any advantage the other has: Indestructible sword forged by Sky-fathers. I'm not saying Jack will cleave through Raiden's metal like butter, but...wait, actually, he will! Jack wins unless Raiden thinks smart and levels the battle field with his strength, his only advantage. There goes my vote!

#32 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3:

I appreciate the support, however we all need to wait until Zambuto debates against me.... which he hasn't done yet.

@nickzambuto

Do you wanna do something?

#33 Posted by nickzambuto (14465 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo said:

@nickzambuto

Okay f*ck this, not waiting anymore.

Jack cuts raiden in half due to the fact he can keep up and will have no trouble reacting to Raiden since he's shown that he has bullet time reaction speed. He also can cut Raiden's blade in half due to the fact that his sword is indestructible and has been able to cut through futuristic tech and steel with ease.

Is that seriously your argument? I've been a little more busy then I expected so I apologize for not being here, but don't act like it would of been so difficult for you to simply go first. "Jack cuts Raiden in half" is seriously one of the most ignorant, disrespectful arguments anyone could of come up. And you base it on Jack has "bullet time reaction speed". You do realize that Raiden has had bullet time reaction speed while human, right? So if you think bullet timing is some amazing feat that automatically puts Jack above everyone else, you're sorely mistaken. Just being a bullet timer actually makes someone barely peak human. I'm sure a much better case could be made for Jack; and he'll need it considering Raiden was performing feats of speed and dexterity that Jack would struggle to keep up with well before any cyborg augmentations. For example: dodging Fortune's mach 20 rail gun blast from close range, singlehandedly destroying 25 Metal Gear RAYS, shooting down Solidus Snake's supersonic fighter jet, killing several technologically enhanced bullet timing Tengu Commando at once before a single one could react; all while human. In terms of agility and reaction time, Raiden is actually enhanced human.

From the moment he could register conscious thought, Raiden was engulfed in constant warfare. His very first memories are of hacking enemies limbs off in the killing fields. Constantly drugged and mind controlled, Raiden lived a life of singleminded purpose: killing. He was taught nothing, he was shown nothing, he would speak of nothing that did not directly relate to combat techniques. Since there was nothing else in his brain to take up space besides the most brutal way to murder somebody, there was nothing to distract him from becoming the perfect weapon (think Cassandra Cain). Even as a boy, Raiden was deemed a combat elitist, and was brought under the personal wing of Solidus Snake. His skill in combat was so legendary that the Patriots themselves went out of their way to recruit him.

Jack was trained since he was a boy as well, but not in the same way Raiden was, where he was literally programmed to be more than human. After becoming a cyborg, Raiden's stats would grow to greatly outclass Jack's.

6:30 Raiden can make dozens of slashes in the span of milliseconds, completely tearing through the roof before the mech he was flying could literally move an inch.

In terms of agility and craft, Raiden holds an indisputable advantage. His artistry in combat gives him a great advantage over Jack, especially in combat. Not only is Raiden completely ambidextrous with his sword, but he has even trained to use his feet just as effectively as arms. He seamlessly flows from maneuver to maneuver, never breaking stride or making a misstep. Raiden is a master of avoidance, and Jack will be lucky to tag him at all.

I also seriously doubt Jack's sword will shatter Raiden's immediately upon contact, considering a High Frequency Blade resonates to lacerate materials down to the molecular level and has not only been shown capable of slicing straight through highly durable mechs, but is also so sharp that it can cut objects in half without even making full contact.

4:55

#34 Edited by nickzambuto (14465 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

My vote goes to walzo :because he used logic. For example, two people with very even stats, like reflexes, speed, durability. One of them has considerably superior strength, but the other has an ability that completely trumps any advantage the other has: Indestructible sword forged by Sky-fathers. I'm not saying Jack will cleave through Raiden's metal like butter, but...wait, actually, he will! Jack wins unless Raiden thinks smart and levels the battle field with his strength, his only advantage. There goes my vote!

No, actually, you should try reading and following the rules instead of being disrespectful and spiteful.

#35 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Actually, no, that wasn't my actual argument for this. I was just hoping to ignite a fire, which I did. I don't like being the opener for debates.

First of all, that milliseconds feat is a game mechanic, and also the rules even say, "No Blade Mode".

Jack also has shown the ability to react to machine gun fire, multiple times within the show. Not only that, he has been able to take down a group of bounty hunters that had knew of his skill and had prep within the time it takes a drop of water to hit the ground. Jack's no slump when it comes to fighting bigger, much more powerful foes.

How does being ambidextrous with his blade give him a advantage? It allows him to fight with his feet, it doesn't really mean much.

I'm aware of Raiden's blade, however it doesn't change the fact that Jack's blade would allow him to cut right through Raiden if he got the chance.

#36 Posted by nickzambuto (14465 posts) - - Show Bio

I can reply to this tomorrow. Sorry, my home Internet isn't working.

#37 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

Anytime now...

#39 Posted by Saren (26027 posts) - - Show Bio

Will this thread reach resolution? Will one man learn to live with this unresolved tension? Stay tuned.

Moderator
#40 Edited by God_Spawn (38244 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote Nick. His argument is more compelling.

Moderator
#41 Posted by laflux (17551 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote Nick. His argument is more compelling.

Will this thread reach resolution? Will one man learn to live with this unresolved tension? Stay tuned.

Has this battle even finished? The constant interference by other users who do not know the CaV rules did disrupt the flow somewhat.......

Which is a shame. I'm withholding my vote for now........................

#42 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Edited by laflux (17551 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Posted by Dawnoftime (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@bazuden: Remember Sam Rodriguez is more skilled than Raiden is, and he took Raiden's manhood away in their first fight. It'd be 10x worse against Jack

@walzo:

Something fishy in this thread.

For one, Fortune's rail gun is not mach 20 or even mach 1. In Sons of Liberty it was stated that Fortune's rail gun has an output of 10 mega joules. 1 Megajoule is equal to a 1 ton vehicle moving 100mph, 10 would be 1000mph however given that rail gun ammo doesn't have nearly the mass or accelerating that a large vehicle have, this would mathematically put Fortune's rail gun shot at speed significantly slower than a handgun bullet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLOlVedbUYY

You can actually watch this video at 3:40 and see Raiden dodge the shot, without the use of any slow motion or camera effects the shot still takes a second to hit the box behind Raiden, a distance of about 100 feet give or take. That would make the rail gun shot about 1/10 the speed of a bullet.

Raiden did shoot down Solidus' harrier. What wasn't mentioned is that he was using stinger missile launchers which lock on to a target, plus the harrier wasn't even moving at it's fastest speed anyway since the fight was taking place on a bridge.

As far as those arsenal tengu are concerned their suits enhanced them to where they can deflect gun fire, but outside of that they are just spetnaz. Raiden also never killed any of them faster than they could react.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tB8qzz4SKI

This is a video of the arsenal tengu fight and it pretty much proves that Raiden's ability to block bullets is a gameplay mechanic.

For one, he's running around with his sword in front of his face. He doesn't even have to maneuver it and bullets magically magnetize toward it. On top of that if you try to deflect bullets for more than a few seconds you get shot. You also need to be dead on straight with the shooter to block them.

Most importantly though, Vamp isn't a bullet timer. He was grazed in the face by Raiden because he couldn't fully read his muscle contractions and dodge his bullets. Yet this non bullet timer was able to blitz Raiden in MGS2 and nearly kill him.

Of course none of this matters since this was all MGS2 Raiden. But in Rising Raiden's sword was shattered by Senator Armstrong, so really Jack's sword would probably bisect him ending this fight quickly.

@xlr87t3 said:

My vote goes to @walzo :because he used logic. For example, two people with very even stats, like reflexes, speed, durability. One of them has considerably superior strength, but the other has an ability that completely trumps any advantage the other has: Indestructible sword forged by Sky-fathers. I'm not saying Jack will cleave through Raiden's metal like butter, but...wait, actually, he will! Jack wins unless Raiden thinks smart and levels the battle field with his strength, his only advantage. There goes my vote!

Agreed, plus Walzo's argument was accurate and wasn't full of speculation and fan fic such as Raiden killing anyone before they could react lol. Now to be fair Raiden did kill Solidus but it could of just been that Raiden was more skilled than he was. In Metal Gear Verse the stronger and faster you are, the less skill you seemed since the human characters beat the faster and stronger characters with a combination of skill and weaponry. Sam Rodriguez is probably the most skilled character in the entire MGS verse and his big feat was killing 10 mob enforcers off panel, pish posh compared to Jack steamrolling dozens of warriors and robots without breaking a sweat.

#45 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawnoftime:

Thanks for the information, however this debate isn't over yet, and meaning you guys can't vote yet.

#46 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just sitting here, twiddling my thumbs.

#47 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20429 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo:

FINISH HIM.

Seriously though, currently, nickzambuto is winning debate-wise. I still think Jack would win though, but you have to prove it through your debating skills man! Stop slacking and GET BACK TO WORK.

#48 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#49 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20429 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek:

I CAN'T DO ANYTHING WHEN I'M WAITING FOR HIM TO REPLY. FIVE DAYS, IT'S BEEN FIVE F*CKING DAYS.

Maybe you could do a more elaborate counter to his initial debate post?

#50 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek:

I CAN'T DO ANYTHING WHEN I'M WAITING FOR HIM TO REPLY. FIVE DAYS, IT'S BEEN FIVE F*CKING DAYS.

Maybe you could do a more elaborate counter to his initial debate post?

I may as well wait for him to actually post, see what he posts, and then counter all of his points. I've watched all of Metal Gear Rising now, and have several things to point out.