Location:
Indestructible Planet
Restrictions:
Superman's lazers (he cannot use them), his Ice Breath is also off limits.
Strictly H2H matchup
No BFR
So, who wins this fight?
Saitama & Lord Boros vs Skaar & New 52 Superman
Here's feats for Boros:
Gallery
Saitama and Boros trump cards:
Gallery
Maybe team 1 can win.
New feats for Team 1:
Gallery
His best striking feat is probably destroying that Planet scorching attack with a single punch now, but the asteroid was large enough to wipe out the planet iirc but regardless it was well over island sized so that is a legitimate island busting feat at the least.
First, how do you "destroy" an attack? That doesn't even make sense. At best it's a durability feat.
Second, if he destroyed the attack then why did it still scorch the planet? Again, you don't make sense.
Third, you need to go back and re-read how big the asteroid was. There was never anything in the manga about it being enough to destroy the planet.
Fourth, it was island-sized. So, what? You think island level punches are gonna take out New-52 Supes? Of course not.
Supes blows shook the planet but wtf shockwave did it create that could be felt in space, the feat makes no sense. How do you feel something in space where there is no air for the shockwave to be transferred through? How deep in space we talking? Do you have a "quantifiable " distance for how far away "in space" is?
Please, let's not play this game; it's a comic book. Things that can't happen in real life happen all the time.
Furthermore, even if the JLA Watchtower is on the very edge of space that's still anywhere from 350-600 km up depending on how you define the edge of space. Shaking the entire planet >>>> island busting. This isn't even debatable.
I know the Tsar Bomba was 50 MT and created shock waves that could be felt far across the world and shattered windows as far away as Poland. Saitama outpunched the Sea King who would punch hard enough to break a nuclear shelter designed to survive a bomb with comparable collateral damage feats to superman's punches.
No. Please stop reaching. Proof that the nuclear shelter was designed to survive a strike that could shake the entire earth? I like how you completely exaggerated the durability of a shelter that has no quantifiable durability feats by trying to use the biggest nuclear bomb ever detonated as a baseline for its durability. Not cool.
The jump didn't look unquantifiable to me since it took less than a panel worth of time, nothing really transpired, Boros was really still in a battle stance, everyone was in the same positions they had last been seen in, seemed to be inferred it took less than a minute by a lot but it wasn't said so It could have taken an hour or maybe a year, yea that makes sense. Guess every time the flash is running and it has a blur behind him if it doesn't state how fast he was traveling or the distance and time it took him we can't infer how fast he was moving. But that is travel speed so I fail to see how either of those matter.
First, how the jump looked to you is irrelevant. What you can prove is what matters. You have no quantifiable timeframe to work with, therefore, all you can do is speculate. In any event, even if I'm generous and say it took Saitama only 1 second that still puts him at 1.28x FTL.
Second, don't try and compare Saitama to the Flash. Flash has an inordinate amount of feats that corroborate how fast he's going, so this situation is entirely disanalogous to Saitama.
Third, it's actually not a travel speed feat. Saitama didn't fly...he jumped. At best it's leg strength feat not a travel feat. Saitama didn't run that fast or fly that fast. All he did was jump. But like I already stated above, even if I'm generous and say it was a travel feat that still puts him at only 1.28x FTL.
Fourth, and this is really important, it is a logical fallacy to try and make a distinction between travel speed and combat speed. Combat speed = travel speed + reaction speed. Imagine this scenario: Someone can fly at FTL speed and they have microsection reaction speed. If they can move at FTL speed (travel speed) and they can react in a microsecond, then that means every microsecond they can react in order to change their direction, position, speed, etc. This is explained quite well HERE.
Obviously this poses quite a problem for you. Superman tracked the Red Hood teleporting from Pluto to Earth. When the Red Hood was in the teleportation machine Superman was right outside the ship. When the Red Hood finished re-materializing on Earth he looked around and Superman was right there. Given the fact that Superman tracks teleporters, has managed to tag Flash (who again has femtosecond reaction speed), and has read an entire library of medical literature in minutes you can see where this is going. Even if I granted that Saitama was equal to Superman in every respect he would still get stomped because of the massive speed difference.
Superman does have better stregnth feats, but I didn't know Stregnth>Striking feats for Damage output. I never said Saitama would out wrestle Supes I said he could put him down.
First, let's be serious here, based on New-52 Superman's strength he could grab Saitama around his neck and break his spine. The only thing stopping him in this fight is morals. Even with morals New-52 Superman could bear hug Saitama until he passed out from not being able to breath. Who cares if you don't like wrestling?
Second, Saitama can put down Superman based on what? Island level punches? Again, let's be serious here.
Right Genos's LASER unquantifiable, because laser's don't move at light speed as implied by what they are. You could argue its a particle beam cannon or a Plasma weapon but both of those are still massively hypersonic and would still be quantifiable....just by what they are. Both him and Genos out paced in a ddition to reacting those lasers too, not that I would argue they are FTL but if it is in fact a LASER as you yourself said that would seem to imply they have FTL combat speeds.
Wait, so now Genos is FTL as well? Since you like being so literal, why couldn't Genos stop the meteor? I mean surely a couple of lightspeed punches could have done the job. /sarcasm The problem with the feat is that dodging lasers is a common comic book trope. Even Spider-Man has dodged lightspeed lasers before (and that's when it was stated on panel that the lasers were lightspeed). Plus, in fiction not all lasers are literally the same as lasers in the real world. You have no proof for how fast those lasers are.
You chose not to see those circumstances because they don't suit your purposes of proving that Saitama is being wanked. But it's probably more likely that he is just really good and can keep up with other powerhouses in comics.
I don't care about your opinions or about your opinions of my supposed bias or what you probably think is true. Your opinions are as useless as my opinions. What matters is evidence--either direct or circumstantial. If you don't have then...you don't have it. End of story.
His feat library isn't as extensive so I guess that is a reason he would lose, but to deny the feats he does have are good is silly. I'm not even saying that Saitama wins this fight, I personally thing Flight is a big enough advantage that Supes should be able to take it thanks to superior mobility. Doesn't mean I think it's a stomp for Superman or One Punch Man fans are wanking him. Saitama is just really good and can probably put down superman if he gets the hits in which his reaction and combat speed showings say he should be able to do.
I'm not denying the feats, I'm asking you for proof. And so far most of what you have is speculation. I accept that Saitama has island level punches; I've generously granted you Saitama jumping from the moon to Earth makes him 1.28x FTL; and I accept that Saitama probably has continental durability (since he did survive an attack that blew away a significant portion of clouds covering the surface of the Earth). Other than this I don't buy your speculation about how the Sea-King destroyed a nuclear bunker designed to withstand strikes that can shake the entire planet (you really just made this up).
Also, just in case you're wondering, the attack from Lord Boros really didn't scorch the Earth, it just blew away the cloud cover:
As you can see the cloud cover has been blown away but no portion of the surface of the earth has been scorched. There's no damage done to any of the land masses and the water isn't even rippling or disturbed.
@uberhikari: Destroy, disperse, neutralise take your pick. He stopped the attack from doing what it was supposed to do by exerting force that was either equal to or greater than the power of the attack. Like The Omega Beams tearing through and "neutralising" Superman's heat vision or a Ki blast from Goku canceling out another Ki blast in Dragon Ball. I said it was planet scorching attack because Boros said he was wiping out the entire surface of the planet with it. It didn't scorch the planet specifically because Saitama dispersed it. The effect after it was neutralized was it parting clouds nothing more.
The point I was making with superman's striking feat you presented is that aspects of it were no more quantifiable than Saitama's. For something to quantifiable we have to have an acceptable basis of comparison and shock waves traveling through space has no basis of comparison, there for by your definition it is unquantifiable and doesn't effect the feat. You can't tell me it takes more force to send shockwaves into space than it does to punch through an island sized asteroid because we don't know how much force is require to send shockwaves into space, no one does. The Tsar Bomba isn't an Island buster yet has produced similar planet scale shockwaves to superman's punches yet Saitama has exhibited greater force than that by smashing something far larger than could be effected by any modern nuke.
Yes I think an Island Busting attack is enough to put down Superman. His durability is up there but let's not pretend that a lot less hasn't hurt him and put him down. Saitama has taken a blow hard enough to send him to the moon at faster than light speeds though and came out relatively no worse for wear, definitely a feat up there with most anything New 52 Supes has tanked.
Everyone on the entire forum makes a distinction between Combat and travel speed, don't play that game with me. We all know Superman is not regularly or really ever fighting at FTL speeds, because it isn't his combat speed. Batman makes the same distinction when Wonder Woman is talking about who is faster, Her or Superman.
And saying a jump to move from one heavenly body to another clearly not used in a combat situation, doesn't compute to travel speed rather than combat speed is silly. All of a sudden Hulks ability to jump long distances and cover extremely long distances in a relatively short amount of time translates into combat speed, because hulk always fights at combat speeds equal to his jumping speeds.
Yes based of the feat Genos should be somewhere between Hypersonic and FTL in Combat. Why didn't he use Light speed punches? Maybe his body can't handle a light speed punch. Maybe he didn't wanna let it get that close. But if it is a laser then yes he should be FTL because he outpaced after firing it himself, which is radically different then moving out of the way of something or aim dodging which is generally accepted as the reason people dodge lasers when they aren't FTL. Personally I wouldn't say it's a laser to begin with, your the one that said it was.I would say the attack was actually a particle beam cannon or a plasma cannon, neither of witch would make him FTL but would make him massively hyper sonic in regards to combat speed.
I know my opinion doesn't matter. But the feats do matter. I don't care if you think Supes wins, I don't care if you think his Feats>Saitama's feats. I only care that you came in calling it wank because you don't think his feats are quantifiable. You're trying to dismiss feats because they don't meet your arbitrary standards and that isn't good debating. You want proof for the feats but the feats are proof with in themselves, that is the point of feats.
Destroy, disperse, neutralise take your pick. He stopped the attack from doing what it was supposed to do by exerting force that was either equal to or greater than the power of the attack. Like The Omega Beams tearing through and "neutralising" Superman's heat vision or a Ki blast from Goku canceling out another Ki blast in Dragon Ball. I said it was planet scorching attack because Boros said he was wiping out the entire surface of the planet with it. It didn't scorch the planet specifically because Saitama dispersed it. The effect after it was neutralized was it parting clouds nothing more.
I'm glad we agree that the attack from Lord Boros did not scorch the Earth. Given the fact that we can't take Boros's claim at face value there's no evidence for how powerful the beam actually was.
The point I was making with superman's striking feat you presented is that aspects of it were no more quantifiable than Saitama's. For something to quantifiable we have to have an acceptable basis of comparison and shock waves traveling through space has no basis of comparison, there for by your definition it is unquantifiable and doesn't effect the feat. You can't tell me it takes more force to send shockwaves into space than it does to punch through an island sized asteroid because we don't know how much force is require to send shockwaves into space, no one does. The Tsar Bomba isn't an Island buster yet has produced similar planet scale shockwaves to superman's punches yet Saitama has exhibited greater force than that by smashing something far larger than could be effected by any modern nuke.
First, uperman's punches shook the entire Earth. What's not quantifiable about that? His punches shook the entire Earth. It doesn't matter if you accept that the punches sent shockwaves that could be felt in space. Again, Superman shaking the Earth with his punches >>>>> island busting punches.
Second, the asteroid Saitama destroyed was not as big as an island. It required island-busting force to destroy it, but the asteroid itself was not as big as an island. It was about the size of a city.
Third, the Tsar bomb didn't shake the entire Earth or even send shockwaves around the Earth. I don't know where you got that information from. According to wikipedia:
All buildings in the village of Severny (both wooden and brick), located 55 kilometres (34 mi) from ground zero within the Sukhoy Nos test range, were destroyed. In districts hundreds of kilometers from ground zero wooden houses were destroyed, stone ones lost their roofs, windows and doors; and radio communications were interrupted for almost one hour. One participant in the test saw a bright flash through dark goggles and felt the effects of a thermal pulse even at a distance of 270 kilometres (170 mi). The heat from the explosion could have caused third-degree burns 100 km (62 mi) away from ground zero. A shock wave was observed in the air at Dikson settlement 700 kilometres (430 mi) away; windowpanes were partially broken to distances of 900 kilometres (560 mi).[10]Atmospheric focusingcaused blast damage at even greater distances, breaking windows in Norway and Finland. The seismic shock[verification needed] created by the detonation was measurable even on its third passage around the Earth.[11]
And here's is what atmospheric focusing is:
Atmospheric focusing is a phenomenon occurring when a large shock wave is produced in the atmosphere, as in a nuclear explosion or large extraterrestrial object impact. The shock wave is refracted horizontally by density variations in the atmosphere so that it can have impacts in localized areas much further away than the theoretical extent of its blast effect.
This means that while there were some specific sites very far away that was damaged by the shockwave, the shockwave was not evenly distributed across a total area several hundred kilometers away. In other words, shockwaves very far away only affected some particular locations because of how the shockwave was refracted through the atmosphere.
Furthermore, the Tsar bomb sent seismic waves around the Earth, which is a normal occurrence for earthquakes if they're powerful enough. But the Tsar bomb did not send shockwaves around the Earth. So, no the Tsar bomb did not send shockwaves around the planet and it's certainly not comparable to Superman's punches because his punches shook the entire planet. You're confusing shockwaves and seismic waves and, in any event, Superman's punches shook the entire Earth while the Tsar Bomb did not.
Finally, there's absolutely no evidence that the nuclear bunker you're talking about could withstand a Tsar Bomb. In fact, the nuclear bunker in question has absolutely no feats of durability. Again, you're making this up. I'm not going to address this point again.
Yes I think an Island Busting attack is enough to put down Superman. His durability is up there but let's not pretend that a lot less hasn't hurt him and put him down. Saitama has taken a blow hard enough to send him to the moon at faster than light speeds though and came out relatively no worse for wear, definitely a feat up there with most anything New 52 Supes has tanked.
First, can you name some lesser attacks that have put New-52 Superman down? Superman was knocked halfway across the planet--from Metropolis to Ireland--by a Kryptonian monster and he got up with only a headache. Show me some feats of island-busting attacks putting down New-52 Superman. Hell, New-52 Superman has even tanked powerful magical attacks without being put down.
Second, again, you don't have a timeframe so you don't know how fast Saitama was sent flying; but I'll be generous and grant that Saitama was sent flying at FTL speed. However, when he got to the moon it didn't even create a crater:
Gallery
There really wasn't any damage done to the moon at all. So, while Saitama kinda tanking this feat was impressive, there's no evidence that he can withstand punches that can shake the entire planet Earth.
Everyone on the entire forum makes a distinction between Combat and travel speed, don't play that game with me. We all know Superman is not regularly or really ever fighting at FTL speeds, because it isn't his combat speed. Batman makes the same distinction when Wonder Woman is talking about who is faster, Her or Superman.
First, I don't care what other people on the forum do. I'm not concerned by what they do. If everybody else said that 2+2=5 I wouldn't care. I only care about arguments, evidence, and reasoning. This is just an argumentum ad populum logical fallacy on your part.
Second, I've shown you evidence of Superman flying from Pluto to Earth tracking a teleporter. The feat is as clear as day. Perhaps you don't want to accept this...but that's not my problem. All of the components necessary to make a reasonable inference is there. Superman has better reaction speed than Saitama and he's faster than Saitama. End of story. Even if I were generous and said that New-52 Superman doesn't have FTL combat speed, the difference in reaction speed alone would make it absolutely futile for Saitama to land a punch anyway.
Furthermore, your scan isn't from the New-52, so it's irrelevant.
And saying a jump to move from one heavenly body to another clearly not used in a combat situation, doesn't compute to travel speed rather than combat speed is silly. All of a sudden Hulks ability to jump long distances and cover extremely long distances in a relatively short amount of time translates into combat speed, because hulk always fights at combat speeds equal to his jumping speeds.
Yes, but Hulk's reaction speed is much, much slower so that's a bad comparison to Superman. Furthermore, modern Hulk's jumping speed is at most hypersonic+. In any event, I already rather generously conceded that Saitama was at least 1.28x FTL , so you're arguing with a phantom.
Yes based of the feat Genos should be somewhere between Hypersonic and FTL in Combat. Why didn't he use Light speed punches? Maybe his body can't handle a light speed punch. Maybe he didn't wanna let it get that close. But if it is a laser then yes he should be FTL because he outpaced after firing it himself, which is radically different then moving out of the way of something or aim dodging which is generally accepted as the reason people dodge lasers when they aren't FTL. Personally I wouldn't say it's a laser to begin with, your the one that said it was.I would say the attack was actually a particle beam cannon or a plasma cannon, neither of witch would make him FTL but would make him massively hyper sonic in regards to combat speed.
Wow, how underhanded. You can discount the shockwave of Superman's punches for not being literal enough but when it comes to a literal interpretation of Genos's feats you make excuses... It doesn't matter anyway, just thought I'd point out the hypocrisy.
I know my opinion doesn't matter. But the feats do matter. I don't care if you think Supes wins, I don't care if you think his Feats>Saitama's feats. I only care that you came in calling it wank because you don't think his feats are quantifiable. You're trying to dismiss feats because they don't meet your arbitrary standards and that isn't good debating. You want proof for the feats but the feats are proof with in themselves, that is the point of feats.
Yes, wank is exactly what it is, but I don't know why you're all hot and bothered...I never called you a wanker. Perhaps you took it personally? If you did, you shouldn't have.
Feats are never "proof within themselves." If feats are quantifiable they serve as proof but if they aren't quantifiable they don't prove anything. Therefore, deciphering a feat always requires a certain level of interpretation. Some feats are more clear than others, some are completely ambiguous, and sometimes they're incomprehensible. Forcing you to proof your assumptions pertaining to a feat is not arbitrary, that's called making you prove that the feat actually shows what you claim (or it assume) that it shows. Proof is a part of debating.
@shadovvlite said:
@uberhikari: To be fair, Superman's punch was a inelastic collision, ergo a direct transfer of momentum. But on OPman's side he created a shock-wave while interacting with another opposite force and was still able to create a massive wave of air pressure from just one punch, enough to clear a line of half the earth's clouds. IMHO, OPman's feat is more impressive and more powerful than Superman's.
This is a line of half of Earth's clouds?
That's clearly not half the Earth's clouds.
Can you show me some calculations for why striking with enough force to shake an entire planet is less powerful than creating a punch where the air pressure clears some cloud cover? Like I told the other guy, I don't care about your opinion.
Just in case you were wondering about Superman's planet shaking feat:
The text in the text boxes read: "He delivers blows that could topple mountains...which can be felt from the very center of the Earth...to the farthest edges of our atmosphere." And Batman + Cyborg can feel the punches even in the JLA Watchtower. Batman exclaims, "Cyborg, what the hell is that noise? I can feel it in the back of my teeth!"
The uppermost layer of Earth's atmosphere is called the exosphere. It starts at an altitude of ~600 km. And if the punches can be felt from the center of the Earth all the way out to the exosphere, then we're talking about a distance of 13,000+ kilometers.
How fast is Saitama and Boros? They are fast enough to keep up with team 2, right?
P.S. Found some cool art about OP latest chapter:
@misterguyman said:
Saitama's tanking of Boros' moon hurtling punch is significant because New52 Supes was KOed when Helspont did something similar to Supes.
I just want to clarify some context that you're leaving out.
Lord Boros was taking his battle with Saitama rather seriously, especially after he felt disrespected by Saitama's balse attitude:
Gallery
Right after activating Meteoric Burst Boros proceeds to speed blitz Saitama to such an extent that he's surprised by how fast Boros is (as shown in the bottom left panel on scan 1). Boros then delivers 3 rather vicious blows, concluding with the kick that sends Saitama to the moon.
On the other hand, Helspont's fight with Superman wasn't nearly as serious:
Gallery
First, Helspont creates his own atmosphere, which is apparently toxic to Superman. As Helspont explains in the 3rd scan, "Yes, I create my own atmosphere. So feel free to mewl in pain. I will hear you." But it's not clear to what extent Superman was weakened by Helspont's atmosphere.
Second, Helspont did not punch or kick Superman...he casually backhanded him (as shown in the 3rd scan). And in the 5th scan, Superman is actually a little surprised, he thinks, "He hit me...with a...backhand." Obviously this situation is a little different from Boros's fight with Saitama: While Boros was serious, Helspont was rather casual. Based on this, Helspont's casual backhand >= Boros's serious kick.
So, there are 2 pieces of context: 1) Boros was serious while Helspont was casual; and 2) Superman was initially poisoned by Helspont's atmosphere. However, Superman is given a concussion and is subsequently knocked out (although not right away). If you think that Saitama's striking strength is greater than Lord Boros's, which isn't an unreasonable assumption, then perhaps you can argue that Saitama could KO Superman if he was able to hit him; but, like I said, it's not clear to what extent Superman was weakened by Helspont's toxic atmosphere.
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