#1 Edited by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
Sabretooth vs Jean Paul Valley
Valley is using this costume
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Creed w/o Adamantium Skeleton 
Bloodlusted
Start 5 feet apart in an empty parking lot
This is JPV after he was able to permanently possess his Azrael abilities
#2 Edited by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabretooth. Azrael isn't fast enough to avoid being eviscerated and can't do enough damage to incapacitate Creed.

#3 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" Sabretooth. Azrael isn't fast enough to avoid being eviscerated and can't do enough damage to incapacitate Creed. "
Decapitation by flaming sword is a good way to incap someone :-) How fast is Sabretooth? Azrael has enhanced reflexes and is pretty fast
#4 Edited by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper said:

" @Dane said:

" Sabretooth. Azrael isn't fast enough to avoid being eviscerated and can't do enough damage to incapacitate Creed. "
Decapitation by flaming sword is a good way to incap someone :-) How fast is Sabretooth? Azrael has enhanced reflexes and is pretty fast "
Sabretooth's skeleton is Adamantium, isn't it? The only thing I've read on Azrael was the novelization of Knightfall and I don't remember his swords being able to cut through everything.
#5 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
" @vuviper said:

" @Dane said:

" Sabretooth. Azrael isn't fast enough to avoid being eviscerated and can't do enough damage to incapacitate Creed. "
Decapitation by flaming sword is a good way to incap someone :-) How fast is Sabretooth? Azrael has enhanced reflexes and is pretty fast "
Sabretooth's skeleton is Adamantium, isn't it? The only thing I've read on Azrael was the novelization of Knightfall and I don't remember his swords being able to cut through everything. "
hm, for some reason I didn't think sabretooth's skeleton was adamantium...lol not a good thread then.
#6 Posted by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

I take it this isn't adamantium Sabretooth which he's had for about 15 years. 
 
Regardless, Sabretooth has easily tagged Black Panther, Iron Fist, Wolverine and Captain America (Ultimate) all of whom I consider to be more skilled than Jean-Paul. He's almost much stronger imo.

#7 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" I take it this isn't adamantium Sabretooth which he's had for about 15 years.   Regardless, Sabretooth has easily tagged Black Panther, Iron Fist, Wolverine and Captain America (Ultimate) all of whom I consider to be more skilled than Jean-Paul. He's almost much stronger imo. "
I edited it in the OP. I don't think Azrael would have much trouble hitting any of them either. Jean Paul might not be as skilled as them, but he's still pretty skilled with centuries worth of assassin training, experience, and knowledge passed down to him by the system. How skilled is Sabretooth? Creed could be stronger, I don't really know how strong he is because I actually have never read a comic with him. lol. JPV has been showing throwing 100lbs manhole lids like batarangs twirling 600 lbs lifting bars, tossing 1 ton tigers, throwing 600lbs statues and lifting and carrying 20-30 ton tree trunks. I've also heard that he has lifted 5-8 ton boulders but I haven't seen it personally.
 
Sorry if this was onesided, I thought it could be interesting.
#8 Posted by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think that tree trunk was ever 20-30 tonnes, that would have to be a tree the size of your street. Maybe 5-10 tonnes. Keep in mind Sabretooth doesn't just that kind of knowledge 'through the system' he has said he is 'much older than [Logan]' who is 125 years. So he has well over a century of actual experience which he spent in the military, wars, black ops, CIA, wetworks and he's just a homicidal maniac who kills people all the time. Also, JPV has a severe weakness in that if his mask or costume were torn or removed he could lose his abilities altogether.
 
Finally, where does the fight begin and under what conditions? Sabretooth is an expert tracker and if he has the opportunity to sneak up on JPV it'd be over in one hit.

#9 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:

" I don't think that tree trunk was ever 20-30 tonnes, that would have to be a tree the size of your street. Maybe 5-10 tonnes. Keep in mind Sabretooth doesn't just that kind of knowledge 'through the system' he has said he is 'much older than [Logan]' who is 125 years. So he has well over a century of actual experience which he spent in the military, wars, black ops, CIA, wetworks and he's just a homicidal maniac who kills people all the time. Also, JPV has a severe weakness in that if his mask or costume were torn or removed he could lose his abilities altogether.  Finally, where does the fight begin and under what conditions? Sabretooth is an expert tracker and if he has the opportunity to sneak up on JPV it'd be over in one hit. "

I was thinking straight up fight, and both at their peak, meaning JPV doesn't need his costume as you'll see in the scan below. I was aware that sabretooth has well over a century of fighting experience as well, that's why I thought it'd be and interesting fight. and I think you might underestimate the mass of trees




So a car width on average is 6 feet. judging by the car and by him the diameter of that tree is about 6 feet. so 3 feet radius. Now we can't see how tall the trunk is, but from what we do see we see that it is at least 40 ft tall. meaning the volume is 1,1390 cubic feet or 32 cubic meters. the density of an oak is 600-900kg/m^3(source: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/ShirleyLam.shtml)  so 19,200-28,800 kg or 42,240-63,360 pounds or 21-31 tons.
#10 Posted by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Please keep in mind that in the scan he is physically twice the height and nearly as wide as that car. I don't know how tall JPV is but that's gotta be a pretty damn small car. It would also imply that he severely pulled every single punch he's ever thrown and that even in near-death situations he never even remotely drew upon his vast stores of strength. This doesn't fit with his character at all since he was more than willing to kill in Knightfall. 
 
We know for a fact that Batman is peak human and he was unable to defeat him after he had just recovered from a fractured spine. If he was at the incredible superhuman levels you say that wouldn't have been a fight at all. I value consistency.

#11 Edited by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:

" Please keep in mind that in the scan he is physically twice the height and nearly as wide as that car. I don't know how tall JPV is but that's gotta be a pretty damn small car. It would also imply that he severely pulled every single punch he's ever thrown and that even in near-death situations he never even remotely drew upon his vast stores of strength. This doesn't fit with his character at all since he was more than willing to kill in Knightfall.   We know for a fact that Batman is peak human and he was unable to defeat him after he had just recovered from a fractured spine. If he was at the incredible superhuman levels you say that wouldn't have been a fight at all. I value consistency. "

 I think looking at the scan the proportions of the car and his body don't seem bad, if he is say 6 feet or taller, which he very likely is. If you look at the top right panel and the very bottom panel it looks like the tree trunk is about as think as he is tall no?
 
well his strength varied a lot, especially with his mental state. but he has other impressive strength feats, most of which aren't lifting(so the amounts aren't that high), which would put him at least in the 10 ton range wouldn't you agree? And remember Batman has body armor that stands up to bullets from point blank, explosiions, and even blows from class 100's. JPV's other strength fearts were: 
Easily bending metal bars
Being able to throw a 100lbs manhole lid like a frisbee (for comparison I though I'd tell you that heavyweight frisbees are half a pound)
Lifting and throwing an altar stated to weigh 400lbs
Being able to bench with 1 hand and then twirl like a flag/staff a weight lifting bar that was stated to be 600 lbs  (for comparison bo staffs aren't ususally more than 1 lbs)
Picking up and throwing a life sized armored statue (I estimate to be 600 lbs, if you want me to show you the calcs for that too I can)
Being able to throw a large tiger into a cage (the largest tigers get up to 1 ton) 
Scaling a >90 degree cliff one handed while holding over 320 pounds of people in his other hand
and I'm not sure if this happened but apparently lifting a 5-8 ton boulder
 And I don't remember Azrael actually killing anyone in knightfall, I thought he just allowed someone to die. Also I think in a forum battle, Azbats would beat Batman. Batman defeating Azrael is one of his high end feats up there with stalemating karate kid, beating prometheus, etc. Azrael has beaten Batman before, in fact Batman Nightwing and Tim couldn't beat him.
 
PS (if you need scans of any of the other feats I just listed ask, right now I'm studying to I though it faster if I didn't, but I don't have the boulder one, because, like I said I haven't seen it personally)
#12 Posted by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

I know Azrael's feats. Batman surviving blows from a class 100 is PIS btw. No amount of kevlar weave will allow you to withstand that kind of force without suffering fatal internal injuries (if you stay in one piece at all).
 
If Azrael isn't willing to inflict lethal damage then he will never take Sabretooth down before having his internal organs removed. Just going from Azrael's fights I think he has a lot of trouble fighting unpowered humans that Sabretooth would wholesale slaughter. Sabretooth's superhuman senses give him a very very good reaction time. Think of how Captain America can dodge bullets because he sees them earlier with peak human physiology, Sabretooth is very far above that and his wounds will heal, JPV's won't. Both having good cutting weapons and the skill to use them might put them on an even footing offensively, but defensively Sabretooth is much more durable and has near limitless stamina from his healing factor. I think he outmatches and outlasts JPV.
 
I'll concede Azrael may be stronger, probably in the class 10 range imo. Sabretooth is highly debatable because like Wolverine his strength has fluctuated and also depends on his Adamantium skeleton being present. Without it I'd put him at the 3-5 ton range easily. Wolverine is supposed to be 1-2 tons and he easily outmatches him for strength. Also if there is any distance between them at the start of the fight Sabretooth will easily win using his top tier tracking and stealth abilities.

#13 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
Nice thread.
Moderator
#14 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" I know Azrael's feats. Batman surviving blows from a class 100 is PIS btw. No amount of kevlar weave will allow you to withstand that kind of force without suffering fatal internal injuries (if you stay in one piece at all).  If Azrael isn't willing to inflict lethal damage then he will never take Sabretooth down before having his internal organs removed. Just going from Azrael's fights I think he has a lot of trouble fighting unpowered humans that Sabretooth would wholesale slaughter. Sabretooth's superhuman senses give him a very very good reaction time. Think of how Captain America can dodge bullets because he sees them earlier with peak human physiology, Sabretooth is very far above that and his wounds will heal, JPV's won't. Both having good cutting weapons and the skill to use them might put them on an even footing offensively, but defensively Sabretooth is much more durable and has near limitless stamina from his healing factor. I think he outmatches and outlasts JPV.  I'll concede Azrael may be stronger, probably in the class 10 range imo. Sabretooth is highly debatable because like Wolverine his strength has fluctuated and also depends on his Adamantium skeleton being present. Without it I'd put him at the 3-5 ton range easily. Wolverine is supposed to be 1-2 tons and he easily outmatches him for strength. Also if there is any distance between them at the start of the fight Sabretooth will easily win using his top tier tracking and stealth abilities. "
Yeah, no distance just straight out fight. Nice run down, I do think that Sabretooth's healing factor could be a huge advantage for him. Azrael does heal faster than humans but nothing comparable to sabretooth or wolverine. Do you have any good example's of Sabretooth's reflexes and agility so I can compare that to Azrael? well you or anyone else.
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. "

Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such)
#15 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: 

Batman surviving blows from a class 100 is PIS btw. No amount of kevlar weave will allow you to withstand that kind of force without suffering fatal internal injuries (if you stay in one piece at all).

Yeah, I also think hims being able to just walk away from being caught in a giant explosion point blank kind of hard to believe too, but it's pretty consistent. *shrugs* him consistently being to bend steel is odd as well.
#16 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper said:
"
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. "
Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such) "
I need to re-read Sword of Azrael. I guess it will have to wait until I go on my Batman quest.
Moderator
#17 Edited by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:

" @vuviper said:

"
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. "
Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such) "
I need to re-read Sword of Azrael. I guess it will have to wait until I go on my Batman quest. "
His animal DNA is actually covered in his series, not the Mini. On a similar note, I need to re-read Knightsquest.
 
@Dane:
I thought I'd add that this is how I see a fight between Batman and Azrael going down.











#18 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
"
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. "
Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such) "
I need to re-read Sword of Azrael. I guess it will have to wait until I go on my Batman quest. "
His animal DNA is actually covered in his series, not the Mini. On a similar note, I need to re-read Knightsquest. "
Did you like KnightFall?
Moderator
#19 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
"
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. "
Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such) "
I need to re-read Sword of Azrael. I guess it will have to wait until I go on my Batman quest. "
His animal DNA is actually covered in his series, not the Mini. On a similar note, I need to re-read Knightsquest. "
Did you like KnightFall? "
Yeah, it was one of the first comics I''ve read. Thought it was pretty enjoyable.
#20 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
"
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. "
Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such) "
I need to re-read Sword of Azrael. I guess it will have to wait until I go on my Batman quest. "
His animal DNA is actually covered in his series, not the Mini. On a similar note, I need to re-read Knightsquest. "
Did you like KnightFall? "
Yeah, it was one of the first comics I''ve read. Thought it was pretty enjoyable. "
I liked it, but the whole "breaking the bat" thing was so infamous at that point, that it spoiled the actual moment for me. I liked JPV as Batman, though. I know it's a bit strange, but I did.
Moderator
#21 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
"
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. " in
Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such) "
I need to re-read Sword of Azrael. I guess it will have to wait until I go on my Batman quest. "
His animal DNA is actually covered in his series, not the Mini. On a similar note, I need to re-read Knightsquest. "
Did you like KnightFall? "
Yeah, it was one of the first comics I''ve read. Thought it was pretty enjoyable. "
I liked it, but the whole "breaking the bat" thing was so infamous at that point, that it spoiled the actual moment for me. I liked JPV as Batman, though. I know it's a bit strange, but I did. "
I don't think it's strange, but maybe ti's because it's one of the first books I read so I didn't have much comic history in me. Back when my older brothers were reading it though, and had posters of Azbats I thought he looked awesome, it wasn't till years later that I would actually read it.
#22 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @vuviper said:
"
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" Nice thread. " in
Thanks, thought it's be interesting since Azrael is has more animal DNA than human (Bears and Gorilla's and such) "
I need to re-read Sword of Azrael. I guess it will have to wait until I go on my Batman quest. "
His animal DNA is actually covered in his series, not the Mini. On a similar note, I need to re-read Knightsquest. "
Did you like KnightFall? "
Yeah, it was one of the first comics I''ve read. Thought it was pretty enjoyable. "
I liked it, but the whole "breaking the bat" thing was so infamous at that point, that it spoiled the actual moment for me. I liked JPV as Batman, though. I know it's a bit strange, but I did. "
I don't think it's strange, but maybe ti's because it's one of the first books I read so I didn't have much comic history in me. Back when my older brothers were reading it though, and had posters of Azbats I thought he looked awesome, it wasn't till years later that I would actually read it. "
I thought it was an interesting deviation to what Bruce had been. And I enjoyed the run-ins Azrael had with regular supporting characters of the bat cast.
Moderator
#23 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_: 
Did you ever read Azrael's series? I was said when I read that he died, cool characters. I'm reading the new azrael but it's kinda meh.
#24 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper said:
" @Morpheus_:  Did you ever read Azrael's series? I was said when I read that he died, cool characters. I'm reading the new azrael but it's kinda meh. "
No, I didn't. It would surely interest me, though.
Moderator
#25 Posted by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Man I thought Azrael was complete jerk in Knightfall. He was kinda good in No Man's Land. 
 
On the whole Azrael does have superhuman physiology but so does Sabretooth. Azrael might heal quickly but nothing like Sabretooth and he's been shown to be severely injured by explosions and gunshots like a normal human would be. To that end I think he has human durability.

#26 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" Man I thought Azrael was complete jerk in Knightfall. He was kinda good in No Man's Land.   On the whole Azrael does have superhuman physiology but so does Sabretooth. Azrael might heal quickly but nothing like Sabretooth and he's been shown to be severely injured by explosions and gunshots like a normal human would be. To that end I think he has human durability. "
no, you're a jerk. lol :-P
 
Yeah I was just mentioning he heals faster, but not anywhere near as fast as sabertooth, probably not fast enough for it to make a difference in the battle even. I wouldn't say his durability is human though. With his suit on(which it is in this battle) I've seen him take bullets and explosions fine and survive 100 foot falls from cliffs into the water. Without his suit on I've seen him hit by a speeding truck  and get knocked into a wall so hard that it left a dent. He was knocked out but he survived. Most humans would be splattered. His adversaries in his series were regularly people with superhumans strength so I've seen him take lot's of punishment and handle it fine. Just sort of guess I'd venture that sabertooth has better reflexes and speed while JPV has better acrobatics/agility. But that's basically a guess. I'm still undecided on this fight
#27 Edited by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Well in No Man's Land he survives an explosion from the Christmas Tree covered in dolls full of Semtex, he is however confined a hospital room. The major problem for him is though, if he costume is damaged he reverts from Azrael to regular Jean-Paul. I don't think Sabretooth would know enough to purposely try to remove his mask but it is a serious weakness if it was a drawn out battle. Sabretooth kind of slashes at anything he can reach.
 
On top of that Sabretooth has a healing factor which will heal him up and grant him near-limitless stamina. If Azrael is going to win he has to do it as fast as possible and I don't see him going for a killing blow without prep time or prior knowledge of his enemy.

#28 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" Well in No Man's Land he survives an explosion from the Christmas Tree covered in dolls full of Semtex, he is however confined a hospital room. The major problem for him is though, if he costume is damaged he reverts from Azrael to regular Jean-Paul. I don't think Sabretooth would know enough to purposely try to remove his mask but it is a serious weakness if it was a drawn out battle. Sabretooth kind of slashes at anything he can reach.  On top of that Sabretooth has a healing factor which will heal him up and grant him near-limitless stamina. If Azrael is going to win he has to do it as fast as possible and I don't see him going for a killing blow without prep time or prior knowledge of his enemy. "
This was meant to be bloodlusted and this is JPV after he is able to retain his Azrael abilities, so the costume thing wouldn't matter anyway. (I'll edit the OP to make it clear) how do you think Azrael's armor would hold out against creed's claws?
#29 Edited by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper said:

" @Dane said:

" Well in No Man's Land he survives an explosion from the Christmas Tree covered in dolls full of Semtex, he is however confined a hospital room. The major problem for him is though, if he costume is damaged he reverts from Azrael to regular Jean-Paul. I don't think Sabretooth would know enough to purposely try to remove his mask but it is a serious weakness if it was a drawn out battle. Sabretooth kind of slashes at anything he can reach.  On top of that Sabretooth has a healing factor which will heal him up and grant him near-limitless stamina. If Azrael is going to win he has to do it as fast as possible and I don't see him going for a killing blow without prep time or prior knowledge of his enemy. "
This was meant to be bloodlusted and this is JPV after he is able to retain his Azrael abilities, so the costume thing wouldn't matter anyway. (I'll edit the OP to make it clear) how do you think Azrael's armor would hold out against creed's claws? "
Not well at all, even without adamantium Creed can rend inches thick steel. If Az gets tagged he gets tagged he's bleeding. If he catches his claws in the chest, midsection, throat or an artery it could be game over.
#30 Posted by vuviper (5530 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @vuviper said:

" @Dane said:

" Well in No Man's Land he survives an explosion from the Christmas Tree covered in dolls full of Semtex, he is however confined a hospital room. The major problem for him is though, if he costume is damaged he reverts from Azrael to regular Jean-Paul. I don't think Sabretooth would know enough to purposely try to remove his mask but it is a serious weakness if it was a drawn out battle. Sabretooth kind of slashes at anything he can reach.  On top of that Sabretooth has a healing factor which will heal him up and grant him near-limitless stamina. If Azrael is going to win he has to do it as fast as possible and I don't see him going for a killing blow without prep time or prior knowledge of his enemy. "
This was meant to be bloodlusted and this is JPV after he is able to retain his Azrael abilities, so the costume thing wouldn't matter anyway. (I'll edit the OP to make it clear) how do you think Azrael's armor would hold out against creed's claws? "
Not well at all, even without adamantium Creed can rend inches thick steel. If Az gets tagged he gets tagged he's bleeding. If he catches his claws in the chest, midsection, throat or an artery it could be game over. "
Good battle then, if I do say so myself. lol. I think I'm leaning towards sabretooth mainly because it's easier for him to end it than it is for Valley. Largely due to sabretooths healing factor
#31 Posted by Dane (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

It is a good battle. I think JPV could win, I just don't think he will. Off the bat Sabretooth bloodlusted will be trying to murder Jean-Paul whereas even a bloodlusted Jean-Paul probably won't try to decaptitate his foe and Sabretooth could heal from virtually anything else.

#32 Posted by Fire_Ant (145 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you think Jean Paul might go for the kill once he knows what he's dealing with? Does he have any ranged attacks that would bother Sabertooth?

#33 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

From the little I know of Jean Paul Valley I am giving him the win. I think his physicals put him in the same ball park at least as sabretooth, and he has better displays of skill IMO.

#34 Posted by New_World_Order (12563 posts) - - Show Bio

Azrael.

#35 Posted by fluffypigeons (258 posts) - - Show Bio

Azrael