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#1 Edited by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

Spetsnaz

Delta Force

Navy seals

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Battle

Spetsnaz: Have the Alpha Group: The highest trained units, have about 700 -1000 units. Some where GRU spetsnaz, which were intelligence spetsnaz used for assassinations, sabotage, covert operations like the CIA's SAD.

Vympel group: 1000 highly trained units, mostly trained in counter-terrorism, and counter-sabotage. They are called also on special operations, and Special reconnaissance. They work closely with the Alpha group

They mostly operate with the Alpha team in important missions.

The training of the Spetsnaz is known to be the best of the best, and the most brutal training, and much higher than Navy Seals and Delta force.

Navy Seals: Have about 2000-2500 operatives, but in this battle only 1,000 will participate. Very well trained, are responsible for counter-terrorism, hostage rescue, special reconnaissance, etc... Many of the CIA's SAD operatives are handpicked from the Seals.

Delta force: Much like the Seals, The Delta force also is responsible for hostage rescue, counter-terrorism. And SAD operatives are picked from the Delta. They have around 1000 operatives 250 of which are highly trained and one of the best US operatives who are mostly responsible for special reconnaissance.

The Delta Force and the Navy Seals on the other hand are known to have the best tech and weapons in the world, better than Spetsnaz.

So, who wins?

#2 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.....

#3 Posted by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

Spetsnaz.

The Col Moschin and Comsubin are better than their...

#4 Edited by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alexander505 said:

Spetsnaz.

The Col Moschin and Comsubin are better than their...

Italian special forces?

The British SAS also are one of the best.

#5 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Seals alone win. They are the best Special force we have. Rangers? Their Elite nothing Special. Marine Recon? Only Special for certain missions. America needs a Target taken out (Osama Bin Laden, Key Members of Terrost Cells, Military Buildings) we send Seals.

Navy Seals have Experts in Land, Air, and Sea Theaters.

Navy Seals have the best Tech we can provide for any mission.

Navy Seals have Demollition Experts attach always from EOD.

Navy Seals train for weeks at a time for a single mission in life like recreates of Buildings and Towns for every possible outcome. (On a side note they are pretty detailed too)

Add in Delta Force that is made up the Epxertise and best of the best from all 4 Branches gives ya the most Elite Team combo ever.

Spetsnaz does not have the proven Gear or Tech to match Navy seals or Delta Force these days.

#6 Posted by AmazingScrewOnHead (704 posts) - - Show Bio

Spetsnaz would win.

SAS are the best in the world, without a doubt.

#7 Edited by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

Seals alone win.

Not even close to the truth.

They are the best Special force we have. Rangers? Their Elite nothing Special. Marine Recon? Only Special for certain missions. America needs a Target taken out (Osama Bin Laden, Key Members of Terrost Cells, Military Buildings) we send Seals.

So? While trying to find a terrorist for 10 years, the Spetsnaz was fighting a war in Chechnya. I'd say fighting a government is harder than tracking a terrorist. The alpha and Vympel were said to carry out the assassinations of the high government leader of Chechnya. And in reality no one knows even the nature of there operations.

And actually in 1979 the Alpha and Vympel team assassinated the president of Afghanistan and his 200 personnel with only 2 dead alphas and 3 vympel.

Navy Seals have Experts in Land, Air, and Sea Theaters.

So do the Spetsnaz. And that's just the regular Spetsnaz. Who are recruited from the military and you know what the pass rate is? Less than 5 percent. While the Navy and Delta force are between 30-40 %.

Navy Seals have the best Tech we can provide for any mission.

Agreed. Navy have the best tech.

Navy Seals have Demollition Experts attach always from EOD.

So? Spetsnaz are trained to improvise with explosives and create them from regular life objects.

Navy Seals train for weeks at a time for a single mission in life like recreates of Buildings and Towns for every possible outcome. (On a side note they are pretty detailed too)

So?

Add in Delta Force that is made up the Epxertise and best of the best from all 4 Branches gives ya the most Elite Team combo ever.

Alpha and Vympel are also like that. And actually the Vympel is compared to the Central intelligence agency's special activities division which are handpicked from Delta Force to carry out covert operations like assassination, sabotage, etc....

Tech isn't the only factor. The spetsnaz are much better trained, they learn to embrace pain, torture, and even enjoy it. Trained to use most of the foreign weapons, have 5 years of training, sabotage, assassination, operate in any vehicle planes, cars, trains, helicopters, etc.... And that's just Spetsnaz, Alpha and Vympel are handpicked and even trained further.

And actually the Spetsnaz training is forbidden in US, they call it illegal, because of it's hardcore, and pain. It scores about 78 deaths in a few years, during only training exercises.

#8 Posted by Primarch (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@AmazingScrewOnHead said:

Spetsnaz would win.

SAS are the best in the world, without a doubt.

Agreed, with perhaps taking into account I never rule out the Israeli's.

#9 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@AmazingScrewOnHead said:

Spetsnaz would win.

SAS are the best in the world, without a doubt.

Navy Seals, Delta force, Spetsnaz, Eko cobra, SAS, Shayetet, etc.. all use the same tactics. There is no special forces much better than the other. SAS is mostly considered the best because it has one of the lowest passing rates (2%) and it is the first counter-terrorism agency. And it has one of the best training. Spetsnaz is elite when it comes to warfare, and h2h combat. Navy Seals are good in their tech, etc...

#10 Posted by TifaLockhart (14012 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a battle according to the not-a-battle rules.

#11 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos: BS. The Gear and Tech is the Factor.

French Foreign Legion is one of the HARDEST and Mentaly Determin Forces out there. Physicaly everyday training a fight for your life till you adapt.

Are they better than Seals? Hell no. The gear and ech and special training as well attachments make the difference.

Just becuase SAS dont do as much Leg Work as Seals and have a Low Passing Rate mean crap when Most Seals see real action and are Vets of mutiple engagements / missions.

Spetsnaz has Brutal Training. Wont deny that but seals training isnt easy by a long shot and if you think it is do Hell week for SAR for 2 Weeks and say otherwise. SAR and SWIC have it easy compared to SEALs.

The Tech puts them over. SEALs and Delta have better weapons, gear, and resources period.

I love to see you put op a American Ace pilot in F-22 vs any other jet in the world who has the best pilot. They wont win. Why? Cause the F-22 has Tech that makes Flying Skills near useless these days and Missils that will outhtink you as a human.

Point is Gear (as I said before) wins this.

#12 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

The Gear and Tech is the Factor.

They are not the only factor. Training is more important. And seriously, nowadays, no special forces have much better tech than the other, almost all use the same tech, the Navy Seals have the best, but it's not alien to Spetsnaz or any other SF.

ust becuase SAS dont do as much Leg Work as Seals and have a Low Passing Rate mean crap when Most Seals see real action and are Vets of mutiple engagements / missions.

You seem to ignore everything except tech, which is very wrong. Passing rate gives you a pretty good idea on how good they are. While some statistics have it that the Delta force have up to 85% passing rate.

Spetsnaz has Brutal Training. Wont deny that but seals training isnt easy by a long shot and if you think it is do Hell week for SAR for 2 Weeks and say otherwise. SAR and SWIC have it easy compared to SEALs.

Yes, actually in training the Seals pale in comparison with Spetsnaz. Former Spetsnaz have stated that in your very first day, they twist your arm till you scream, then they gave you a choice, to break your arms or to stab you with a knife. That's a normal hour for a Spetsnaz, while Seals are better funded, the Spetsnaz are much much better trained.

The Tech puts them over. SEALs and Delta have better weapons, gear, and resources period.

Not by a long shot.

I love to see you put op a American Ace pilot in F-22 vs any other jet in the world who has the best pilot. They wont win. Why? Cause the F-22 has Tech that makes Flying Skills near useless these days and Missils that will outhtink you as a human.

There are no air-crafts in this fight.

And did you read the OP? The Spetsnaz are Vympel and Alpha which are one of the best units in the world, compared to SAD operatives who are better than Seals. Having the best available tech, trained in everything, H2H, sniper, counter sniper techniques, special training, etc... They have multiple units, and some are intelligence officers, some sources have it, they use them as "sleepers" in other countries, they are learned to operate in other countries, and learn their tactics, and they say that they have to memorize up to 30 maps of the most important capitals by heart. And no one actually knows the nature of their operations, they blend as regular Spetsnaz and usually are said to be responsible for the assassination of the high government leaders of Chechnya. Russians actually threatened to deploy them in Syria a while ago should the US forces enter Syria.

#13 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos: yeah I read the OP and was stationed for 4 years at Little Creek where alot of the Seal Teams are.

They are not the only factor. Training is more important. And seriously, nowadays, no special forces have much better tech than the other, almost all use the same tech, the Navy Seals have the best, but it's not alien to Spetsnaz or any other SF.

no but theres a reason America has the best military in the world. Tech guy. Only Chinese has us beat in some areas. Russia is still way behind the power curve.

You seem to ignore everything except tech, which is very wrong. Passing rate gives you a pretty good idea on how good they are. While some statistics have it that the Delta force have up to 85% passing rate.

Your Pasing rate has no scientific basis here. They have a low paing rate. Do they have as many canidates as SEAL or even BUDS? Do they have a low passing rate cause the guys sent to it arnt physicaly train before that? Alot of Factors not taken into account guy.

Yes, actually in training the Seals pale in comparison with Spetsnaz. Former Spetsnaz have stated that in your very first day, they twist your arm till you scream, then they gave you a choice, to break your arms or to stab you with a knife. That's a normal hour for a Spetsnaz, while Seals are better funded, the Spetsnaz are much much better trained.

Thats brutal. Swimming in the Canal during Jellyfish Season for training is also Brutal. They do that every Season for a week back at Little Creek. Is it as hard as getting stab (wow alot of Blood Transfusions really effective lol) probaly not. Still Hurts like hell swimming a Mile in a canal filled with thousands of Jelly Fish.

You seem to think SEALs are all the same?

Having the best available tech, trained in everything, H2H, sniper, counter sniper techniques, special training, etc... They have multiple units, and some are intelligence officers, some sources have it, they use them as "sleepers" in other countries, they are learned to operate in other countries, and learn their tactics, and they say that they have to memorize up to 30 maps of the most important capitals by heart

Wow You just Decribe a SEAL team. Good job.

And no one actually knows the nature of their operations, they blend as regular Spetsnaz and usually are said to be responsible for the assassination of the high government leaders of Chechnya. Russians actually threatened to deploy them in Syria a while ago should the US forces enter Syria.

Yeah and Seal who been around WW2 and heavely helped in Vietnam, Desert Storm, and help bring down the Taliban (Something Russia failed in yes LOL) are proven to there track record with many operations we dont even know about as they are still deem classified.

Whats your point?

#14 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@Alexander505 said:

Spetsnaz.

The Col Moschin and Comsubin are better than their...

Italian special forces?

The British SAS also are one of the best.

Yes, in particular the Comsubin is one of the best in the world, the commandos of the Italian Navy train the Navy Seals. The Italian Navy has made history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_commando_frogmen

The SAS is legendary.

#15 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

I got to give it to the Seals and Delta Force.

#16 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

no but theres a reason America has the best military in the world. Tech guy. Only Chinese has us beat in some areas. Russia is still way behind the power curve.

Well I'm not willing to get into a America vs Russia debate.

Also, that's why Russia won WW2, because they had much better tech than the Germans, right?

Your Pasing rate has no scientific basis here. They have a low paing rate. Do they have as many canidates as SEAL or even BUDS? Do they have a low passing rate cause the guys sent to it arnt physicaly train before that? Alot of Factors not taken into account guy.

LOL.... So you're gonna tell me that the passing rate doesn't matter? And actually the most elite special forces have not more than a thousand personnel because of their elite-ness, Aren't physically trained? They are handpicked from the military, and only 2% pass.

Thats brutal. Swimming in the Canal during Jellyfish Season for training is also Brutal. They do that every Season for a week back at Little Creek. Is it as hard as getting stab (wow alot of Blood Transfusions really effective lol) probaly not. Still Hurts like hell swimming a Mile in a canal filled with thousands of Jelly Fish.

You serious?

And sometimes they put them on their heads.

Also, that was a "Spetsnaz show" back in 2002, that's not even their training. That's what they can show, their training is much harder and is classified, and these guys are still inferior to the Alpha and Vympel groups.

Wow You just Decribe a SEAL team. Good job.

Not really, Navy Seals are special forces. Vympel and Alpha are intelligence and special forces combined. Like the SAD.

Yeah and Seal who been around WW2 and heavely helped in Vietnam, Desert Storm, and help bring down the Taliban (Something Russia failed in yes LOL) are proven to there track record with many operations we dont even know about as they are still deem classified.

I don't see your point here.

Also something I should note, unlike Navy Seals who only rely on their tech, Spetsnaz actually are improvisers, even without tech they can handle almost any mission. They are trained to climb a 5 story building in a matter of seconds, the best H2H combatants in the world, masters in all kinds of weapons, co-training, resistance to torture, emotional and physical endurance, etc.... While the Seals rely mostly on their tech, and in no way I'm saying that the Seals are somehow bad, not at all, it's just that Spetsnaz covers every angel, while Seals rely on their tech, which is superior to the tech of anyone in the world, but again it's not alien to Spetsnaz or any other special forces.

#17 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos: Again Your combining 2 forces yet SEALs have Delta Force here which have access to CIA. So what the hell does Spetsnaz have that so Impressive again that out Resource or Tech SEALs with Delta?!

LOL.... So you're gonna tell me that the passing rate doesn't matter? And actually the most elite special forces have not more than a thousand personnel because of their elite-ness, Aren't physically trained? They are handpicked from the military, and only 2% pass.

Yeah considering the HIGHER VOLUME of SEAL Canidates and even HIGHER VOLUME in BUDS. You dont even know what BUDS is do ya? So yeah Passing rate means squat when the canidates for the 2 are far different. So.. LOL back at ya.

Also something I should note, unlike Navy Seals who only rely on their tech, Spetsnaz actually are improvisers, even without tech they can handle almost any mission. They are trained to climb a 5 story building in a matter of seconds, the best H2H combatants in the world, masters in all kinds of weapons, co-training, resistance to torture, emotional and physical endurance, etc.... While the Seals rely mostly on their tech, and in no way I'm saying that the Seals are somehow bad, not at all, it's just that Spetsnaz covers every angel, while Seals rely on their tech, which is superior to the tech of anyone in the world, but again it's not alien to Spetsnaz or any other special forces.

Really? SEALs and Delta are not train to improvise and evade capture for a week straight with no gear but a knife and Compass vs Military Working Dogs and Helicopters withThermals? Really guy?!

So far you made a thread about these 2 facing off and I basicly said it was Gear and Tech and Resource that put SEALs and Delta over Spetsnaz here.

You on the otherhand (maker of the thread BTW) clearly belive Spetsnaz win due to Pain Tolerance and Muscles.......

Is this a Bait Thread?

#18 Posted by XImpossibruX (5170 posts) - - Show Bio

'Merica

#19 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio
Again Your combining 2 forces yet SEALs have Delta Force here which have access to CIA. So what the hell does Spetsnaz have that so Impressive again that out Resource or Tech SEALs with Delta?!

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.... If you actually want to consider this, this would be an all-out war between Russia and America, that's why I specified Spetsnaz vs Seals and Delta. CIA has nothing to do with this . Now of course Delta has access to the CIA, Spetsnaz has access to FSB, GRU etc.... it's all connected of course.

Yeah considering the HIGHER VOLUME of SEAL Canidates and even HIGHER VOLUME in BUDS. You dont even know what BUDS is do ya? So yeah Passing rate means squat when the canidates for the 2 are far different. So.. LOL back at ya.

Not really, I think it's part of Navy seals. Though I'm not sure.

candidates of the 2 are different, how exactly?

Really? SEALs and Delta are not train to improvise and evade capture for a week straight with no gear but a knife and Compass vs Military Working Dogs and Helicopters withThermals? Really guy?!

So far you made a thread about these 2 facing off and I basicly said it was Gear and Tech and Resource that put SEALs and Delta over Spetsnaz here.

You on the otherhand (maker of the thread BTW) clearly belive Spetsnaz win due to Pain Tolerance and Muscles.......

Is this a Bait Thread?

I said that the Spetsnaz are better in this field than the Navy, of course they are trained also in that, all SF are, though some are better than others.

Okay, I see your reasoning. And you misunderstand everything I said, my point is better Tech does not directly equal a win, however you insisted on that. Where did I say in this whole thread that Spetsnaz even win? And because of pain tolerance? LOL, seriously, I'm not stupid, as much training as one can have, it won't save him from a bullet, but the Spetsnaz are better than Seals in training, that's why I made the thread actually. You on the other hand, insist that only Tech matters, which is wrong, history proves it.

#20 Posted by nick_hero22 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

Navy Seals they are just as well trained, which should obvious due to their many accomplishments in the Middle East, and they have better technology due to USA putting huge emphasis on military spending i.e. drone technology, weaponry and gadgets, and etc.

#21 Edited by cooljammy18 (835 posts) - - Show Bio

People need to get a clue about the U.S.S.O.C.O.M. Delta Force is the American Tier 1 Special Operations unit. "Special Forces" is a term given to the Army Green Berets. For the love of god stop mixing them up. Navy SEAL DEVGRU, or Team 6, is a Tier 1 sub-unit within the Navy SEALS composed of their best sailors and are separate from the regular SEAL team. You guys need to understand that Tier 1 units cover all spectrums of warfare and aren't restricted to a couple of goals or skillsets. Spestnaz is the term that covers most of all of Russia's Special Ops units. So, if you want to add the Spetsnaz in a "vs" topic against their US counterparts, you might as well add in the Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, 160th SOAR, Air Force Combat Control Team, PJS, MARSOC and the rest of the USSOCOM units to if we're doing a large scale battle of Spec Ops units.

As for this topic, it's difficult. That comment about SEALS relying on tech, "too much" essentially, is extremely ignorant. Tech is a necessary component of SOCOM, mostly for reconnaissance, however, these units engage have specializations in guerilla warfare, psychological warfare, black ops etc, so the use of tech varies depending on their mission. Stop saying that Spetznas has "superior" training. More brutality doesn't create a better soldier. Also, much of the training procedure for Delta recruits is mostly classified, so to assume you have the adequate knowledge of this is just presumtuous at best. But, it is fact that the US forces are better equpied and better funded than most Special Ops units in the world. Since the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the Russian military has been very sloppy logistically and financially and it wasn't until recently when Putin sign a bill to add more funding to their forces. Delta Force and DEVGRU are both highly sophisicated units and perform with extreme precision. They use a wide variety of weapons from the M4 SOPMOD to the HK416 and etc. With the Spetsnaz, people love to talk about their brutal training, and I agree that it is, but again, brutality can only do so much for a soldier on the battlefield. Down to the core, the Spetsnaz are very hardened, but all Tier 1 units are so you can just omit that argument. Many if not all of the USSOCOM units have torture tests as a part of the SERE procedure to test how you might break. Before you want to say that men die during Spetsnaz training, well the same is true for American Spec Ops. Even so in conventional units.

But, but....the Spetsnaz crawl through pig blood! And?

The thing that's similar between the Spetsnaz, DF and DEVGRU is that only 1% or less or the military population actually earn their position into them. I like how the Spetsnaz put a big emphasis on H2H combat, but the possibility of engaging in that is low in a real mission. CQC capabilities is largely dependent on the certain unit during a certain mission. Delta and DEVGRU work together normally in missions, along with the Air Force Combat Control Team (my favorite Spec Ops unit) in real life but they're aren't in this battle. Technology and logistics goes straight to the DF and DEVGRU. The handling of intelligence between these two is unparalled and hard to match along with more versatile weapons. More brutal training goes to Spetsnaz based off of current knowledge KNOWN. Delta and DEVGRU could be equally brutal, which it most likely is, but that real information is classified. More "efficient" training is hard to determine because Tier 1 units keep the real dirty stuff secretive for protection against foreign enemies. In a real combat scenario, the DF & DEVGRU have an edge, BUT, everything else is dependent on the circumstances of the fight. High skill and talent presented in all units makes it impossible to determine the winner unless you're a wizard or if there is a major disadvantage present in one team. Also, it wasn't necessary to add the SEALS to the DF in this context because a single Delta team easily matches a single Spetsnaz team. Also, SOG is the CIA's equivalent of a Tier 1 unit along with SAD, but SOG is more on ground. You're right that SAD/SOG are selected from most Tier 1 units. All in all this mission is based off of many factors of the mission. Also, the "best of the best" training arguably goes to the British SAS. They were the major influence for the DF and wrote many tactics used by practically all Spec Ops units and have a consistent, proven track record....unlike the Spestnaz. Trying not to lowball here.

The winners: depend on circumstances.

#22 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

Again Your combining 2 forces yet SEALs have Delta Force here which have access to CIA. So what the hell does Spetsnaz have that so Impressive again that out Resource or Tech SEALs with Delta?!

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.... If you actually want to consider this, this would be an all-out war between Russia and America, that's why I specified Spetsnaz vs Seals and Delta. CIA has nothing to do with this . Now of course Delta has access to the CIA, Spetsnaz has access to FSB, GRU etc.... it's all connected of course.

Yeah considering the HIGHER VOLUME of SEAL Canidates and even HIGHER VOLUME in BUDS. You dont even know what BUDS is do ya? So yeah Passing rate means squat when the canidates for the 2 are far different. So.. LOL back at ya.

Not really, I think it's part of Navy seals. Though I'm not sure.

candidates of the 2 are different, how exactly?

Really? SEALs and Delta are not train to improvise and evade capture for a week straight with no gear but a knife and Compass vs Military Working Dogs and Helicopters withThermals? Really guy?!

So far you made a thread about these 2 facing off and I basicly said it was Gear and Tech and Resource that put SEALs and Delta over Spetsnaz here.

You on the otherhand (maker of the thread BTW) clearly belive Spetsnaz win due to Pain Tolerance and Muscles.......

Is this a Bait Thread?

I said that the Spetsnaz are better in this field than the Navy, of course they are trained also in that, all SF are, though some are better than others.

Okay, I see your reasoning. And you misunderstand everything I said, my point is better Tech does not directly equal a win, however you insisted on that. Where did I say in this whole thread that Spetsnaz even win? And because of pain tolerance? LOL, seriously, I'm not stupid, as much training as one can have, it won't save him from a bullet, but the Spetsnaz are better than Seals in training, that's why I made the thread actually. You on the other hand, insist that only Tech matters, which is wrong, history proves it.

Looks like I did misunderstand. I thought you were Arguing Spetsnaz had more Resource and intel abilities as well Spetsnaz trial thru fire training making them superior on the field.

BUDs is the program in the Navy that take you from Boot Camp or already in the Navy and Physicaly as well mentaly test anyone and everyone that think they can join Navy's Special forces. (SAR Diver, SWCC, SEAL, and EOD) then after many months of preparing thru BUDs you have a shot at the school.

#23 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

Delta Force solos. Not that SEAL's r bad. Delta typically chooses the most talented from each branch of the service...Rangers, Force Recon, Special Forces etc...

#24 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Of course the Seals have better resources, intel, tech. While Spetsnaz are tougher guys, that's my whole point. Tech, resources vs Toughness. Also, the only guys I think have training on the Spetsnaz level, it would be the DEVGRU group of the Navy Seals, which is team 6. A group which is known to be "the best of the best", neither the White house nor Department of Defense would comment on anything about them. This team works with SAD operatives, who are the best operatives in the world. Yes, The best. No one is better than them.

#26 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooljammy18:

Navy SEAL DEVGRU, or Team 6, is a Tier 1 sub-unit within the Navy SEALS composed of their best sailors and are separate from the regular SEAL team. You guys need to understand that Tier 1 units cover all spectrums of warfare and aren't restricted to a couple of goals or skillsets.

Yep, this group is the most elite group in Navy Seals, operating with the best operatives in the world, the CIA's SAD

Spestnaz is the term that covers most of all of Russia's Special Ops units

It's a common term used for "special purposes"

So, if you want to add the Spetsnaz in a "vs" topic against their US counterparts, you might as well add in the Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, 160th SOAR, Air Force Combat Control Team, PJS, MARSOC and the rest of the USSOCOM units to if we're doing a large scale battle of Spec Ops units.

If you read the OP, I specified the "Alpha and Vympel" groups, which are the most elite operatives in all of Russia, much like the DEVGRU Navy Seals.

Stop saying that Spetznas has "superior" training. More brutality doesn't create a better soldier. Also, much of the training procedure for Delta recruits is mostly classified, so to assume you have the adequate knowledge of this is just presumtuous at best.

Generally it is considered better. I recall even some Seals admitting that a Spetsnaz soldier is better trained.

Of course Delta Force training is classified, In Spetsnaz the punishment is death if one is to publicly say his service. Things like breaking cinderblocks on a Spetsnaz's head are shown publicly, one can only imagine what their "true" training is.

But, it is fact that the US forces are better equpied and better funded than most Special Ops units in the world.

Of course it is. That's what makes them special.

Since the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the Russian military has been very sloppy logistically and financially and it wasn't until recently when Putin sign a bill to add more funding to their forces.

This is true, and even their were some Spetsnaz who went rogue due to their slow salaries.

Delta Force and DEVGRU are both highly sophisicated units and perform with extreme precision. They use a wide variety of weapons from the M4 SOPMOD to the HK416 and etc. With the Spetsnaz, people love to talk about their brutal training, and I agree that it is, but again, brutality can only do so much for a soldier on the battlefield. Down to the core, the Spetsnaz are very hardened, but all Tier 1 units are so you can just omit that argument. Many if not all of the USSOCOM units have torture tests as a part of the SERE procedure to test how you might break. Before you want to say that men die during Spetsnaz training, well the same is true for American Spec Ops. Even so in conventional units.

I actually wouldn't believe that 78 people died in training in a few years. Because that's just a good excuse when Spetsnaz has failed a mission and lost men. They would just say that their men died training. Excellent excuse.

The thing that's similar between the Spetsnaz, DF and DEVGRU is that only 1% or less or the military population actually earn their position into them. I like how the Spetsnaz put a big emphasis on H2H combat, but the possibility of engaging in that is low in a real mission.

You mean the passing rate is around 1%?

Yes H2H combat won't save you from a bullet, but nevertheless, the best operatives have to cover every angel.

Also, it wasn't necessary to add the SEALS to the DF in this context because a single Delta team easily matches a single Spetsnaz team.

I know, but it seems you haven't read the OP. I put 1000 Seals and 1000 Delta force operatives vs 1000 Alpha and 1000 Vympel units.

Also, SOG is the CIA's equivalent of a Tier 1 unit along with SAD, but SOG is more on ground.

SOG mostly handles tech. SAD see more action. 7 operatives where stationed when raiding Bin Laden's compound.

You're right that SAD/SOG are selected from most Tier 1 units.

Personally I would put them Tier 1 among all operatives in all the world

#27 Edited by cooljammy18 (835 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@cooljammy18:

Navy SEAL DEVGRU, or Team 6, is a Tier 1 sub-unit within the Navy SEALS composed of their best sailors and are separate from the regular SEAL team. You guys need to understand that Tier 1 units cover all spectrums of warfare and aren't restricted to a couple of goals or skillsets.

Yep, this group is the most elite group in Navy Seals, operating with the best operatives in the world, the CIA's SAD

Spestnaz is the term that covers most of all of Russia's Special Ops units

It's a common term used for "special purposes"

So, if you want to add the Spetsnaz in a "vs" topic against their US counterparts, you might as well add in the Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, 160th SOAR, Air Force Combat Control Team, PJS, MARSOC and the rest of the USSOCOM units to if we're doing a large scale battle of Spec Ops units.

If you read the OP, I specified the "Alpha and Vympel" groups, which are the most elite operatives in all of Russia, much like the DEVGRU Navy Seals.

Stop saying that Spetznas has "superior" training. More brutality doesn't create a better soldier. Also, much of the training procedure for Delta recruits is mostly classified, so to assume you have the adequate knowledge of this is just presumtuous at best.

Generally it is considered better. I recall even some Seals admitting that a Spetsnaz soldier is better trained.

Of course Delta Force training is classified, In Spetsnaz the punishment is death if one is to publicly say his service. Things like breaking cinderblocks on a Spetsnaz's head are shown publicly, one can only imagine what their "true" training is.

But, it is fact that the US forces are better equpied and better funded than most Special Ops units in the world.

Of course it is. That's what makes them special.

Since the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the Russian military has been very sloppy logistically and financially and it wasn't until recently when Putin sign a bill to add more funding to their forces.

This is true, and even their were some Spetsnaz who went rogue due to their slow salaries.

Delta Force and DEVGRU are both highly sophisicated units and perform with extreme precision. They use a wide variety of weapons from the M4 SOPMOD to the HK416 and etc. With the Spetsnaz, people love to talk about their brutal training, and I agree that it is, but again, brutality can only do so much for a soldier on the battlefield. Down to the core, the Spetsnaz are very hardened, but all Tier 1 units are so you can just omit that argument. Many if not all of the USSOCOM units have torture tests as a part of the SERE procedure to test how you might break. Before you want to say that men die during Spetsnaz training, well the same is true for American Spec Ops. Even so in conventional units.

I actually wouldn't believe that 78 people died in training in a few years. Because that's just a good excuse when Spetsnaz has failed a mission and lost men. They would just say that their men died training. Excellent excuse.

The thing that's similar between the Spetsnaz, DF and DEVGRU is that only 1% or less or the military population actually earn their position into them. I like how the Spetsnaz put a big emphasis on H2H combat, but the possibility of engaging in that is low in a real mission.

You mean the passing rate is around 1%?

Yes H2H combat won't save you from a bullet, but nevertheless, the best operatives have to cover every angel.

Also, it wasn't necessary to add the SEALS to the DF in this context because a single Delta team easily matches a single Spetsnaz team.

I know, but it seems you haven't read the OP. I put 1000 Seals and 1000 Delta force operatives vs 1000 Alpha and 1000 Vympel units.

Also, SOG is the CIA's equivalent of a Tier 1 unit along with SAD, but SOG is more on ground.

SOG mostly handles tech. SAD see more action. 7 operatives where stationed when raiding Bin Laden's compound.

You're right that SAD/SOG are selected from most Tier 1 units.

Personally I would put them Tier 1 among all operatives in all the world

1. I did read the OP and was just speaking in a broad tense

2.Special purposes=Special Operations pretty much.

3. Care to provide a source where Navy SEAL from DEVGRU admitted that?

4. I agree that the Spetsnaz have displayed some brutal tactics, and they stated that they're more harsh training could be consider illegal in the West. I remember reading one instant where they would drop off members in a rural town, forgot the name, and would actually try to hunt them and kill them. My original point that due to Delta and DEVGRU training, along with all other Tier 1 units, being classified means that it's difficult to gauge whose training is "better."

5. Glad we agree that Delta/DEVGRU are better equiped.

6. Considering that the Spetsnaz have had utterly humiliating results on a few missions, that excuse could be pausible. I know for a fact that over 30 Army soldiers have lost their lives during training at Ranger School. You could look this up yourself if you want. My Uncle told me that during his time in the 82nd Airbourne, some soldiers lost their lives during war games, but the Army would usually keep these deaths from the media for obvious reasons. Also, there are statements that talk about most of the experienced soldiers in Delta having many physical and psychological issues the longer they stay in. Scary stuff.

7. Yeah, I meant that the passing rate is around 1%. I personally would put most Tier 1 units at the same level.

8. I agree that Tier 1 units have to be good in all areas, hell a you have to be in a Tier 2 unit. I don't know how Delta/DEVGRU train in H2H, but there are a few videos on weapons training and they showcased a lot of skill.

9. I know, but you could of just used 2,000 DF or SEALS instead since this is a fake battle you know. :p

10. I thought it was the other way around or at least mixed in roles. That's still fine to me.

11. I would agree that the CIA SAD/SOG are the elite of the elite. They literally don't exist in records due to the cladestine operations that constantly happen.

I still think that this battle would depend on circumstances though.

#28 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooljammy18:

3. I really don't remember but I think it was in Green Beret not Seals.

4. Perhaps DEVGRU, yes, but I doubt that the Navy Seals regular members are as brutal as Spetsnaz.

6. Yeah, I meant the Spetsnaz would tell the media that their operative's lives where lost during training not in a covert operation in a foreign country.

9. Although classified it is rumored that there are no more than 1,000 Delta force operatives, 250 of which are the most elite working with DEVGRU.

11. Yeah, officially they don't even exist. The government can deny even knowing them.

They were the first operatives to enter Afghanistan.

#29 Edited by Strider92 (16098 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@AmazingScrewOnHead said:

Spetsnaz would win.

SAS are the best in the world, without a doubt.

Navy Seals, Delta force, Spetsnaz, Eko cobra, SAS, Shayetet, etc.. all use the same tactics. There is no special forces much better than the other. SAS is mostly considered the best because it has one of the lowest passing rates (2%) and it is the first counter-terrorism agency. And it has one of the best training. Spetsnaz is elite when it comes to warfare, and h2h combat. Navy Seals are good in their tech, etc...

While that is one of the reasons it not quite that simple. The SAS has a much more diverse military background. There isn't much they haven't done. The main reason they are considered the best is because all the training that the Navy Seals, Delta force etc... take is based on the SAS. Charles Beckwith the guy who founded the Delta Force went to the SAS to learn their training/tactics before founding the Delta so he could apply it to the DF.

The SAS are considered the best simply because they were one of the the most successful SF's in the world and nearly all other Special Forces come from their base training/image.

#30 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

While that is one of the reasons it not quite that simple. The SAS has a much more diverse military background. There isn't much they haven't done. The main reason they are considered the best is because all the training that the Navy Seals, Delta force etc... take is based on the SAS. Charles Beckwith the guy who founded the Delta Force went to the SAS to learn their training/tactics before founding the Delta so he could apply it to the DF.

The SAS are considered the best simply because they were one of the the most successful SF's in the world and nearly all other Special Forces come from their base training/image.

I know. SAS is pretty much the role model to other SF. Being the first special forces and all.....

#31 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2780 posts) - - Show Bio

No one beats USA,,,we're the umber one military force on the planet hands down

#32 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly 20 years ago Spetsnaz would have this. Today it be Delta/Seals mainly due to resources, budgets, and Gear/Tech.

#33 Edited by SlimJ87D (9328 posts) - - Show Bio

Even though the Seals and Delta force are highly advanced in tech, this means nothing but can even be a handicap. These teams may at times rely on communication with JSOC and SOCOM to be fed intel to accomplish their mission. But in this fight it seems like they are cut off of all that and only have themselves to rely on.

Other than that, their weapons are a bit more advanced but a bullet is a bullet and no matter what gun it comes out of it can kill.

I think it's a toss up on who can get the jump on the other. It really comes down to leadership and the lead calling all the shots.

#34 Posted by SlimJ87D (9328 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooljammy18 said:

People need to get a clue about the U.S.S.O.C.O.M. Delta Force is the American Tier 1 Special Operations unit. "Special Forces" is a term given to the Army Green Berets. For the love of god stop mixing them up. Navy SEAL DEVGRU, or Team 6, is a Tier 1 sub-unit within the Navy SEALS composed of their best sailors and are separate from the regular SEAL team. You guys need to understand that Tier 1 units cover all spectrums of warfare and aren't restricted to a couple of goals or skillsets. Spestnaz is the term that covers most of all of Russia's Special Ops units. So, if you want to add the Spetsnaz in a "vs" topic against their US counterparts, you might as well add in the Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, 160th SOAR, Air Force Combat Control Team, PJS, MARSOC and the rest of the USSOCOM units to if we're doing a large scale battle of Spec Ops units.

As for this topic, it's difficult. That comment about SEALS relying on tech, "too much" essentially, is extremely ignorant. Tech is a necessary component of SOCOM, mostly for reconnaissance, however, these units engage have specializations in guerilla warfare, psychological warfare, black ops etc, so the use of tech varies depending on their mission. Stop saying that Spetznas has "superior" training. More brutality doesn't create a better soldier. Also, much of the training procedure for Delta recruits is mostly classified, so to assume you have the adequate knowledge of this is just presumtuous at best. But, it is fact that the US forces are better equpied and better funded than most Special Ops units in the world. Since the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the Russian military has been very sloppy logistically and financially and it wasn't until recently when Putin sign a bill to add more funding to their forces. Delta Force and DEVGRU are both highly sophisicated units and perform with extreme precision. They use a wide variety of weapons from the M4 SOPMOD to the HK416 and etc. With the Spetsnaz, people love to talk about their brutal training, and I agree that it is, but again, brutality can only do so much for a soldier on the battlefield. Down to the core, the Spetsnaz are very hardened, but all Tier 1 units are so you can just omit that argument. Many if not all of the USSOCOM units have torture tests as a part of the SERE procedure to test how you might break. Before you want to say that men die during Spetsnaz training, well the same is true for American Spec Ops. Even so in conventional units.

But, but....the Spetsnaz crawl through pig blood! And?

The thing that's similar between the Spetsnaz, DF and DEVGRU is that only 1% or less or the military population actually earn their position into them. I like how the Spetsnaz put a big emphasis on H2H combat, but the possibility of engaging in that is low in a real mission. CQC capabilities is largely dependent on the certain unit during a certain mission. Delta and DEVGRU work together normally in missions, along with the Air Force Combat Control Team (my favorite Spec Ops unit) in real life but they're aren't in this battle. Technology and logistics goes straight to the DF and DEVGRU. The handling of intelligence between these two is unparalled and hard to match along with more versatile weapons. More brutal training goes to Spetsnaz based off of current knowledge KNOWN. Delta and DEVGRU could be equally brutal, which it most likely is, but that real information is classified. More "efficient" training is hard to determine because Tier 1 units keep the real dirty stuff secretive for protection against foreign enemies. In a real combat scenario, the DF & DEVGRU have an edge, BUT, everything else is dependent on the circumstances of the fight. High skill and talent presented in all units makes it impossible to determine the winner unless you're a wizard or if there is a major disadvantage present in one team. Also, it wasn't necessary to add the SEALS to the DF in this context because a single Delta team easily matches a single Spetsnaz team. Also, SOG is the CIA's equivalent of a Tier 1 unit along with SAD, but SOG is more on ground. You're right that SAD/SOG are selected from most Tier 1 units. All in all this mission is based off of many factors of the mission. Also, the "best of the best" training arguably goes to the British SAS. They were the major influence for the DF and wrote many tactics used by practically all Spec Ops units and have a consistent, proven track record....unlike the Spestnaz. Trying not to lowball here.

The winners: depend on circumstances.

Cool it jammy, you sound like you're going to blow a hemorrhoid. Yes all that information can be looked up on Wikipedia thank you.

#35 Edited by cooljammy18 (835 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@cooljammy18 said:

People need to get a clue about the U.S.S.O.C.O.M. Delta Force is the American Tier 1 Special Operations unit. "Special Forces" is a term given to the Army Green Berets. For the love of god stop mixing them up. Navy SEAL DEVGRU, or Team 6, is a Tier 1 sub-unit within the Navy SEALS composed of their best sailors and are separate from the regular SEAL team. You guys need to understand that Tier 1 units cover all spectrums of warfare and aren't restricted to a couple of goals or skillsets. Spestnaz is the term that covers most of all of Russia's Special Ops units. So, if you want to add the Spetsnaz in a "vs" topic against their US counterparts, you might as well add in the Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, 160th SOAR, Air Force Combat Control Team, PJS, MARSOC and the rest of the USSOCOM units to if we're doing a large scale battle of Spec Ops units.

As for this topic, it's difficult. That comment about SEALS relying on tech, "too much" essentially, is extremely ignorant. Tech is a necessary component of SOCOM, mostly for reconnaissance, however, these units engage have specializations in guerilla warfare, psychological warfare, black ops etc, so the use of tech varies depending on their mission. Stop saying that Spetznas has "superior" training. More brutality doesn't create a better soldier. Also, much of the training procedure for Delta recruits is mostly classified, so to assume you have the adequate knowledge of this is just presumtuous at best. But, it is fact that the US forces are better equpied and better funded than most Special Ops units in the world. Since the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the Russian military has been very sloppy logistically and financially and it wasn't until recently when Putin sign a bill to add more funding to their forces. Delta Force and DEVGRU are both highly sophisicated units and perform with extreme precision. They use a wide variety of weapons from the M4 SOPMOD to the HK416 and etc. With the Spetsnaz, people love to talk about their brutal training, and I agree that it is, but again, brutality can only do so much for a soldier on the battlefield. Down to the core, the Spetsnaz are very hardened, but all Tier 1 units are so you can just omit that argument. Many if not all of the USSOCOM units have torture tests as a part of the SERE procedure to test how you might break. Before you want to say that men die during Spetsnaz training, well the same is true for American Spec Ops. Even so in conventional units.

But, but....the Spetsnaz crawl through pig blood! And?

The thing that's similar between the Spetsnaz, DF and DEVGRU is that only 1% or less or the military population actually earn their position into them. I like how the Spetsnaz put a big emphasis on H2H combat, but the possibility of engaging in that is low in a real mission. CQC capabilities is largely dependent on the certain unit during a certain mission. Delta and DEVGRU work together normally in missions, along with the Air Force Combat Control Team (my favorite Spec Ops unit) in real life but they're aren't in this battle. Technology and logistics goes straight to the DF and DEVGRU. The handling of intelligence between these two is unparalled and hard to match along with more versatile weapons. More brutal training goes to Spetsnaz based off of current knowledge KNOWN. Delta and DEVGRU could be equally brutal, which it most likely is, but that real information is classified. More "efficient" training is hard to determine because Tier 1 units keep the real dirty stuff secretive for protection against foreign enemies. In a real combat scenario, the DF & DEVGRU have an edge, BUT, everything else is dependent on the circumstances of the fight. High skill and talent presented in all units makes it impossible to determine the winner unless you're a wizard or if there is a major disadvantage present in one team. Also, it wasn't necessary to add the SEALS to the DF in this context because a single Delta team easily matches a single Spetsnaz team. Also, SOG is the CIA's equivalent of a Tier 1 unit along with SAD, but SOG is more on ground. You're right that SAD/SOG are selected from most Tier 1 units. All in all this mission is based off of many factors of the mission. Also, the "best of the best" training arguably goes to the British SAS. They were the major influence for the DF and wrote many tactics used by practically all Spec Ops units and have a consistent, proven track record....unlike the Spestnaz. Trying not to lowball here.

The winners: depend on circumstances.

Cool it jammy, you sound like you're going to blow a hemorrhoid. Yes all that information can be looked up on Wikipedia thank you.

No, I have many members of my family that served in the military, included my Uncle that I talked about in the other post if you read that. Also, my other knowledge comes from research I did on a couple of the worlds military and reading articles relevant to it because I'm on the fencing of joining the military after college. I only use wiki to read about weapons and vehicles they use. You also agreed with me in that last sentence about the battle going both ways, so I don't get why you're making this type of comment to me. How about you cool it sir? :p

Don't hate me :(

#36 Posted by SlimJ87D (9328 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooljammy18 said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@cooljammy18 said:

People need to get a clue about the U.S.S.O.C.O.M. Delta Force is the American Tier 1 Special Operations unit. "Special Forces" is a term given to the Army Green Berets. For the love of god stop mixing them up. Navy SEAL DEVGRU, or Team 6, is a Tier 1 sub-unit within the Navy SEALS composed of their best sailors and are separate from the regular SEAL team. You guys need to understand that Tier 1 units cover all spectrums of warfare and aren't restricted to a couple of goals or skillsets. Spestnaz is the term that covers most of all of Russia's Special Ops units. So, if you want to add the Spetsnaz in a "vs" topic against their US counterparts, you might as well add in the Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, 160th SOAR, Air Force Combat Control Team, PJS, MARSOC and the rest of the USSOCOM units to if we're doing a large scale battle of Spec Ops units.

As for this topic, it's difficult. That comment about SEALS relying on tech, "too much" essentially, is extremely ignorant. Tech is a necessary component of SOCOM, mostly for reconnaissance, however, these units engage have specializations in guerilla warfare, psychological warfare, black ops etc, so the use of tech varies depending on their mission. Stop saying that Spetznas has "superior" training. More brutality doesn't create a better soldier. Also, much of the training procedure for Delta recruits is mostly classified, so to assume you have the adequate knowledge of this is just presumtuous at best. But, it is fact that the US forces are better equpied and better funded than most Special Ops units in the world. Since the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the Russian military has been very sloppy logistically and financially and it wasn't until recently when Putin sign a bill to add more funding to their forces. Delta Force and DEVGRU are both highly sophisicated units and perform with extreme precision. They use a wide variety of weapons from the M4 SOPMOD to the HK416 and etc. With the Spetsnaz, people love to talk about their brutal training, and I agree that it is, but again, brutality can only do so much for a soldier on the battlefield. Down to the core, the Spetsnaz are very hardened, but all Tier 1 units are so you can just omit that argument. Many if not all of the USSOCOM units have torture tests as a part of the SERE procedure to test how you might break. Before you want to say that men die during Spetsnaz training, well the same is true for American Spec Ops. Even so in conventional units.

But, but....the Spetsnaz crawl through pig blood! And?

The thing that's similar between the Spetsnaz, DF and DEVGRU is that only 1% or less or the military population actually earn their position into them. I like how the Spetsnaz put a big emphasis on H2H combat, but the possibility of engaging in that is low in a real mission. CQC capabilities is largely dependent on the certain unit during a certain mission. Delta and DEVGRU work together normally in missions, along with the Air Force Combat Control Team (my favorite Spec Ops unit) in real life but they're aren't in this battle. Technology and logistics goes straight to the DF and DEVGRU. The handling of intelligence between these two is unparalled and hard to match along with more versatile weapons. More brutal training goes to Spetsnaz based off of current knowledge KNOWN. Delta and DEVGRU could be equally brutal, which it most likely is, but that real information is classified. More "efficient" training is hard to determine because Tier 1 units keep the real dirty stuff secretive for protection against foreign enemies. In a real combat scenario, the DF & DEVGRU have an edge, BUT, everything else is dependent on the circumstances of the fight. High skill and talent presented in all units makes it impossible to determine the winner unless you're a wizard or if there is a major disadvantage present in one team. Also, it wasn't necessary to add the SEALS to the DF in this context because a single Delta team easily matches a single Spetsnaz team. Also, SOG is the CIA's equivalent of a Tier 1 unit along with SAD, but SOG is more on ground. You're right that SAD/SOG are selected from most Tier 1 units. All in all this mission is based off of many factors of the mission. Also, the "best of the best" training arguably goes to the British SAS. They were the major influence for the DF and wrote many tactics used by practically all Spec Ops units and have a consistent, proven track record....unlike the Spestnaz. Trying not to lowball here.

The winners: depend on circumstances.

Cool it jammy, you sound like you're going to blow a hemorrhoid. Yes all that information can be looked up on Wikipedia thank you.

No, I have many members of my family that served in the military, included my Uncle that I talked about in the other post if you read that. Also, my other knowledge comes from research I did on a couple of the worlds military and reading articles relevant to it because I'm on the fencing of joining the military after college. I only use wiki to read about weapons and vehicles they use. You also agreed with me in that last sentence about the battle going both ways, so I don't get why you're making this type of comment to me. How about you cool it sir? :p

Don't hate me :(

I'm on the same boat. My uncle by marriage is a retired E8 Army SF and his Son, my cousin is going into the rangers. I wanted to become a SEAL but tore my shoulder and gave up on that dream.

I feel where your frustration is coming from though. To be honest I hate, I absolutely hate topics like these because some of the things people say that seem ignorant. I remember back arguing with someone making a topic about Movie batman vs the Navy SEALs I think and I lost my cool.

#37 Posted by nickzambuto (12903 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 'Murica wins.

Online
#38 Posted by cooljammy18 (835 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@cooljammy18 said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@cooljammy18 said:

People need to get a clue about the U.S.S.O.C.O.M. Delta Force is the American Tier 1 Special Operations unit. "Special Forces" is a term given to the Army Green Berets. For the love of god stop mixing them up. Navy SEAL DEVGRU, or Team 6, is a Tier 1 sub-unit within the Navy SEALS composed of their best sailors and are separate from the regular SEAL team. You guys need to understand that Tier 1 units cover all spectrums of warfare and aren't restricted to a couple of goals or skillsets. Spestnaz is the term that covers most of all of Russia's Special Ops units. So, if you want to add the Spetsnaz in a "vs" topic against their US counterparts, you might as well add in the Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, 160th SOAR, Air Force Combat Control Team, PJS, MARSOC and the rest of the USSOCOM units to if we're doing a large scale battle of Spec Ops units.

As for this topic, it's difficult. That comment about SEALS relying on tech, "too much" essentially, is extremely ignorant. Tech is a necessary component of SOCOM, mostly for reconnaissance, however, these units engage have specializations in guerilla warfare, psychological warfare, black ops etc, so the use of tech varies depending on their mission. Stop saying that Spetznas has "superior" training. More brutality doesn't create a better soldier. Also, much of the training procedure for Delta recruits is mostly classified, so to assume you have the adequate knowledge of this is just presumtuous at best. But, it is fact that the US forces are better equpied and better funded than most Special Ops units in the world. Since the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the Russian military has been very sloppy logistically and financially and it wasn't until recently when Putin sign a bill to add more funding to their forces. Delta Force and DEVGRU are both highly sophisicated units and perform with extreme precision. They use a wide variety of weapons from the M4 SOPMOD to the HK416 and etc. With the Spetsnaz, people love to talk about their brutal training, and I agree that it is, but again, brutality can only do so much for a soldier on the battlefield. Down to the core, the Spetsnaz are very hardened, but all Tier 1 units are so you can just omit that argument. Many if not all of the USSOCOM units have torture tests as a part of the SERE procedure to test how you might break. Before you want to say that men die during Spetsnaz training, well the same is true for American Spec Ops. Even so in conventional units.

But, but....the Spetsnaz crawl through pig blood! And?

The thing that's similar between the Spetsnaz, DF and DEVGRU is that only 1% or less or the military population actually earn their position into them. I like how the Spetsnaz put a big emphasis on H2H combat, but the possibility of engaging in that is low in a real mission. CQC capabilities is largely dependent on the certain unit during a certain mission. Delta and DEVGRU work together normally in missions, along with the Air Force Combat Control Team (my favorite Spec Ops unit) in real life but they're aren't in this battle. Technology and logistics goes straight to the DF and DEVGRU. The handling of intelligence between these two is unparalled and hard to match along with more versatile weapons. More brutal training goes to Spetsnaz based off of current knowledge KNOWN. Delta and DEVGRU could be equally brutal, which it most likely is, but that real information is classified. More "efficient" training is hard to determine because Tier 1 units keep the real dirty stuff secretive for protection against foreign enemies. In a real combat scenario, the DF & DEVGRU have an edge, BUT, everything else is dependent on the circumstances of the fight. High skill and talent presented in all units makes it impossible to determine the winner unless you're a wizard or if there is a major disadvantage present in one team. Also, it wasn't necessary to add the SEALS to the DF in this context because a single Delta team easily matches a single Spetsnaz team. Also, SOG is the CIA's equivalent of a Tier 1 unit along with SAD, but SOG is more on ground. You're right that SAD/SOG are selected from most Tier 1 units. All in all this mission is based off of many factors of the mission. Also, the "best of the best" training arguably goes to the British SAS. They were the major influence for the DF and wrote many tactics used by practically all Spec Ops units and have a consistent, proven track record....unlike the Spestnaz. Trying not to lowball here.

The winners: depend on circumstances.

Cool it jammy, you sound like you're going to blow a hemorrhoid. Yes all that information can be looked up on Wikipedia thank you.

No, I have many members of my family that served in the military, included my Uncle that I talked about in the other post if you read that. Also, my other knowledge comes from research I did on a couple of the worlds military and reading articles relevant to it because I'm on the fencing of joining the military after college. I only use wiki to read about weapons and vehicles they use. You also agreed with me in that last sentence about the battle going both ways, so I don't get why you're making this type of comment to me. How about you cool it sir? :p

Don't hate me :(

I'm on the same boat. My uncle by marriage is a retired E8 Army SF and his Son, my cousin is going into the rangers. I wanted to become a SEAL but tore my shoulder and gave up on that dream.

I feel where your frustration is coming from though. To be honest I hate, I absolutely hate topics like these because some of the things people say that seem ignorant. I remember back arguing with someone making a topic about Movie batman vs the Navy SEALs I think and I lost my cool.

Woah, wasn't expecting that. Yeah, sorry for that reactionary response, and I absolutely hate these topics, unless people know their info. I just naturally do out of my love for our military and seeing comments "American forces rely mostly on technology" just warrants a negative response from me. It's 10x worse on youtube where people post blatant BS like "The Marines are the best because they go in first and leave the sloppy seconds to the Army duurrr hurr" or that "Royal Marines s*** all over eerrrbody." Especially those Call of Duty nuts posting like they know about the military and military weapons. The OP didn't even know that BUDs was a part of Navy SEALS training regime, but he knows quite a lot about the Spetsnaz so I'm guessing he specializes in Russian knowledge and that's cool.

Movie Batman vs Navy SEALS? Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you give Bruce's knowledge to most SEALS, they can replicate his feats but that's a different story.

Sucks to hear about your shoulder man. Has it gotten a lot better to where you could perform strenuous activities without discomfort, or is it permanent? You could still get into a combat unit if so, but Special Ops is another ballpark. I myself was switching back and forth on what branch I wanted to join because they all have amazing perks. First Rangers (my second favorite Spec-Ops group), Marine recon sniper, Green Beret, and then USAF Combat Control Team (my favorite unit). Even the 160th SOAR in Army because they are very underrated, but that's actually a good thing lol...unlike the SEALS without disrespect. Now, I'm currently a freshman in college and if I were to go, I decided it would be an Intelligence Officer in the Navy or Air Force. Seems like my area. Not doing the ROTC program and probably would just do OCS if I can.

#39 Posted by SlimJ87D (9328 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooljammy18: I'm okay where I am now. I ended up getting a BS in two engineering fields and now I work in the aerospace field.

When I hear or meet any of these SF guys I can see a big difference between them and me. I can tell that they're really special, real Captain Americas. I don't think I could have finished BUD/s the way they did. They have an awesome strong heart that I will always admire from affair.

For you, since you are a Freshman, keep your GPA up and look up the Navy's bachelor completion program.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjo2/a/bdcp.htm

http://www.cnrc.navy.mil/publications/Forms/1131.100.pdf

This gives you a good amount of flexibility. Specially of ROTC or NROTC isn't offered on your campus.

#40 Posted by cooljammy18 (835 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@cooljammy18: I'm okay where I am now. I ended up getting a BS in two engineering fields and now I work in the aerospace field.

When I hear or meet any of these SF guys I can see a big difference between them and me. I can tell that they're really special, real Captain Americas. I don't think I could have finished BUD/s the way they did. They have an awesome strong heart that I will always admire from affair.

For you, since you are a Freshman, keep your GPA up and look up the Navy's bachelor completion program.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjo2/a/bdcp.htm

http://www.cnrc.navy.mil/publications/Forms/1131.100.pdf

This gives you a good amount of flexibility. Specially of ROTC or NROTC isn't offered on your campus.

Wow nice. I'm majoring in Electrical engineering right now myself. Thanks for the links also and I think men in the Special Operations units are one of the bravest individuals in our country and are very under appreciated.

#41 Posted by GAG (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Frankly say, it's quite funny to read your discussion for the person served in "spetsnaz" First of all russian abbreviation "spetsnaz" is used so widely that it almost doesn't mean anything. Every private security agency claims it self as spetsnaz.

Among real "spetsnaz" there are MVD spetsnaz - police special forces plus VV (Internal Troops they are like National Guard) spetsnaz, FSB spetsnaz (alfa\vympel etc), Army\Navy spetsnaz.

Cannot say anything about others (they are obviously different - have different tasks. Mostly - freeing of hostages and crackdown). However, army spetsnaz (Spetsnaz GRU) is a land of my youth. First of all, there is no any "brutal" trainings (nothing so brutal for Russians). The most brutal thing is every day running with 100 pounds weight equipment for 5 to 30 kilometers (3 to 20 myles). Other brutal thing is deadly boring trainings of foreign army tactics, weapon, vehicles.

Second, spetsnaz are not professionals. They are usual "called on to the army" soldiers served 2 years.

Third, no special h2h fight trainings (just usual boring army trainings,it was a rest to have some time in gym). On another hand all soldiers had at least "master of sports" degree - in sooting or in running or in martial arts. I had at that time 3 dan in dju-djutsu.

(lol - all you see in vids is just so called "pokazukha" some kind of specially prepared performance - for bosses and visitors)

Forth, neither SEALS, nor spetsnaz would have won. If there is some kind of clash, MOST PROBABLY they both would retreat and continue fulfilling their task (unless agree - you go right, I go left). Original spetsnaz's task is hidden collection of information, sabotage, assasination, ambush etc not a battle with other special forces, and more over with infantery with heavy weapon. Therefore, good tactics, orientation, running, camouflage, shooting, no sound move skills are more important than h2h fight (not needed at all - no karate is helpful vs bullet). It is just usual field front intelligence.

On another hand, I believe spetsnaz is more strong in moral aspect, in phisical trainings. Also Russian tech is better for war. No doubt, observation and relay tech in US is better. But, when you are in a lack of electricity and ammo, battery is low, no food, no help, no medicine - tech will die, but human skills stay. Simple and powerful Russian weapon also. It is originally designed for such conditions. Also, they (spetsnaz soldiers) have much more simple perception of death both their own or enemy's.

So, there is no sence to compare army spetsnaz with special operations units, it's more like green berets. And in this respect I may say - no comparison, spetsnaz is much tougher.

By the way, please don't forget about extensive warfare practice of spetsnaz from Nicaragua and Angola to Chechnya and Georgia. No year without some war.

Please, also remeber, that USSR army wasn't directed to any small conflicts. Red Army was specialized in high scale war. E.g. there was no light infantery. Even paratroopers had heavy armoured personnel carriers and tanks (which were airlifted too). So did spetsnaz. I'd also say that theoretical background (foreign armies, psycology, foreign tech) was excellent.

See this (pokazukha):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i_XqV7t7sY

And this (real work)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=bUlW-Yuxsx4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFqFhlpnzHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_UknYYlUPA (see closer to the end, if someone of you may hadle PK - respect)

#42 Edited by ScribblerG (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Too many posts to read them all, but what I read was interesting. My amateur, but interested take. First, I didn't see a discussion of tactics and doctrine. U.S. military doctrine in conventional warfare surpassed the Russian's decades ago. It would seem to me that when you look at something like DevGru - Seal Team 6 - with over a billion a year to spend and recruiting the cream of the crop of SEALS - that they would likely be most effective versus any other force. The most important advantage? Running thousands of ops in Iraq and Afghanistan and allowing them to build their own doctrine from the ground up. I also think that there are diminishing returns from cruelty and punishing physical training. At a certain point all you do is generate more injuries and fatigue, and the cruelty can devolve into abuse. Put another way, I don't think the relative toughness of SpetNatz who are beaten and abused is going to make much of a difference in battle when compared to the SEAL. Man for man, is anyone going to suggest that a Spetznatz is on average going to get the better of a SEAL cuz he's been torutured? Good luck...

When we went into Afghanistan, we had 2500 SpecWarfare warriors. Today, we have 50,000. Just as our scale and sophistication and wealth combine in the rest of our military to create much more effective approaches to air, water and land battle, I have to believe it similarly accrues in SpecWarfare. As well, the right way to compare say Russian Spetznatz to SEALS would be to give them the same objective to achieve. And we have real world examples of their tactical sloppiness versus SEAL discipline, organization and attention to detail. Just look at theOpera house or the Beslan school debacle. At the time more then a few U.S. specwarfare experts came forward who were very critical of Russian tactics and techniques.

So, I think it's fair to assume that the overall approach of DevGru would be light years ahead of the SpetzNatz in any given situation. Just look at the Bin Laden raid. Piece of cake for our guys. An easy night's work. Can you imagine what DevGru might have done about the Iranian hostage crisis? I also think that what works in DevGru gets propagated across all our SpecWarfare groups.

#43 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

delta is 1st tier SF meaning they get their recruits from the special forces units themselves, regular spetsnaz dont, though russia's vympel is probably the equivalent of delta, they also get their recruits from regular special forces units. thus it can be assumed delta force is better trained than the regular spetsnaz.

#44 Posted by Captain_Vietnam (193 posts) - - Show Bio

Spetnaz GRU

#45 Posted by beatboks1 (6992 posts) - - Show Bio

Why bump this??

There can be no definitive answer without defining what intel or plan/ strategies are applied and by whom.

For myself I'm ex an Aussie SAS who wanted to be an Air Force pilot ( failed the medical due to a cosmetic defect- birth mark behind the eye that caused a squint - one eye not lined up with the other. My vision was perfect 20/20 in both eyes and the only effect was that I have a range of vision of 195 degrees and a blind spot at the top of my nose 1/5 of an inch from it). So I joined the army instead to become a chopper pilot. Unfortunately as a third generation army brat who'd had a rifle in his hands at 5 I shot too damn well to ever get that assignment ( or as my fist CO said - the army doesn't waist talent boy why would we put a man who can shoot like a demon behind the stick of a chopper where he'll never hold a rifle). So instead was made a rifle specialist and eventually the SAS.

This idea that anyone countries special operatives are trained any better than any other is ludicrous. One of my old trainers was contracted by the US to train seals and another to train rangers. I myself had some instructors who were British SAS and others who were Israeli and US. Most special operations forces have cooperation with their allies in ensuring they are as good as they can be.

Harshness and cruelty in training is also nothing new to any such combat unit. One test for SAS training (survival) was to be dropped in the middle of the desert with a knife and a small canteen an unknown direction and distance from any base ( usually 25 to 30 miles) and left to fend for yourself. There is t even an attempt to pick you up for 5 days if you haven't made it back. Jungle warfare training had similar tests from what I heard ( I was primarily trained for desert warfare)

I will say to cadence your question re air combat on e had an answer in some war games played back in the late 70's early 80's. since I always wanted to be a pilot ( as a tween i loved 12 oclock high and the black Sheet - about WWII corsair pilots in pacific)I payed attention to the results of the Air Force in some war games we played with our US Allies. Despite our delapidated Air Force flying out dated phantom jets against brand new F18's the kill ratio of the Aussie pilots in the war games was 15% higher than their US partners. Of course five years later after some of those Aussie pilots were seconded to US bases the results were reversed ( another example of that ally cooperation). For the record Phantoms are much slower less maneuverable and responsive than F18's ( very much so considering they were almost 10 years behind but he we had just freakin upgraded from Sabre jets that were like some of the first jet fighters ever made). I'm not saying by any means that tech doesn't make a difference just that its rarely everything.

#46 Edited by DothThouEvenLift (209 posts) - - Show Bio

Russians are hardcore, ill go with spetsnaz lol..

#47 Posted by MonsterStomp (15865 posts) - - Show Bio

The better fighter wins.

Online
#48 Edited by Avenger85 (1602 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on terrain, location, support, intelligence received, available weapons and tools, freshness of mind, focus and LUCK.

So I call it even.

BTW the Spetsnaz team you want to include in this battle are either Alpha or Vympel group. Both operate not under army, but FSB ( Russia's primary intelligence agency ) command.

#49 Posted by Penderor (1212 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Spetsnaz can do this.

#50 Posted by Chibi_cute (4455 posts) - - Show Bio

Al qaeda steps in and solos.