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#1 Edited by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

No prep 
Both at peak 
Bloodlusted 
BFR is not acceptable win  
Winner fights Odin with destroyer armor, asgardian lifeforces, and odinsword
 
If you're a thor fanboy...please get out. I have nothing against you but RKT's greatest weapon is fanboy exaggeration. Only come if your unbiased.

#2 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#3 Posted by THORSON (2359 posts) - - Show Bio

THOR takes this.

#4 Posted by New_World_Order (13036 posts) - - Show Bio

@THORSON said:

THOR takes this.

#5 Posted by 18hunt (2903 posts) - - Show Bio

Surtur would lose without his sword. But... He can win this

HE SUMMON FIVE BILLION FIRE DEMONS AND WHILE DISTRACTING THOR HE SLASHES HIM IN HALF

#6 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@THORSON said:

THOR takes this.

Both of you (look like) are Thor fans. You can only stay if you give non-fanboyish logic.@18hunt said:

Surtur would lose without his sword. But... He can win this

HE SUMMON FIVE BILLION FIRE DEMONS AND WHILE DISTRACTING THOR HE SLASHES HIM IN HALF

So... is he more powefull individually? 
Keep in mind TS can stomp odin-level beings.
#7 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

RKT, Surtur can only win against Odin. >_>

RKT would stomp Odin, hence why RKT is above Skyfather.

#8 Edited by THORSON (2359 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@THORSON said:

THOR takes this.

Both of you (look like) are Thor fans. You can only stay if you give non-fanboyish logic.@18hunt said:

Surtur would lose without his sword. But... He can win this

HE SUMMON FIVE BILLION FIRE DEMONS AND WHILE DISTRACTING THOR HE SLASHES HIM IN HALF

So... is he more powefull individually? Keep in mind TS can stomp odin-level beings.

i'm not a biased. RK THOR is more powerful. its a fact. if it was just THOR, then that would be a different story.

#9 Posted by Bo88gdan (4397 posts) - - Show Bio

Rune king Thor would win probably

#10 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

RKT, Surtur can only win against Odin. >_>

RKT would stomp Odin, hence why RKT is above Skyfather.

RKT is above odin, not bounds beyond him. To be as powerfull as he is made out to be, the rather ambiguous runes would have to be 4-5 as powerfull as the odinforce. 
@THORSON said: 

i'm not a biased. RK THOR is more powerful. its a fact. if it was just THOR, then that would be a different story.

Are you referring to the barrier one-shot? Keep in mind that the barrier was magical, and the odinforce manipulates magical energy. Plus RKT has special access to Yggrasidal (I assume)
#11 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: The Runes ARE more powerful than the Odinforce, that's why Odin didn't even tried to fight TWSAS.

#12 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

@highaccuser: The Runes ARE more powerful than the Odinforce, that's why Odin didn't even tried to fight TWSAS.

Look at Killemall's arguments on the RKT/galcatus vs Arishem and Exitar forum.
#13 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

@highaccuser: The Runes ARE more powerful than the Odinforce, that's why Odin didn't even tried to fight TWSAS.

Look at Killemall's arguments on the RKT/galcatus vs Arishem and Exitar forum.

What's that's have to do with anything?

RKT is more powerful than Odin, that's a fact.

#14 Posted by THORSON (2359 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

RKT, Surtur can only win against Odin. >_>

RKT would stomp Odin, hence why RKT is above Skyfather.

RKT is above odin, not bounds beyond him. To be as powerfull as he is made out to be, the rather ambiguous runes would have to be 4-5 as powerfull as the odinforce.
@THORSON said:

i'm not a biased. RK THOR is more powerful. its a fact. if it was just THOR, then that would be a different story.

Are you referring to the barrier one-shot? Keep in mind that the barrier was magical, and the odinforce manipulates magical energy. Plus RKT has special access to Yggrasidal (I assume)

umm...no

#15 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

What's that's have to do with anything?

RKT is more powerful than Odin, that's a fact.

That is undisputable. But he is not stronger than TWSAIS. I asked to look at it because Killemall noted that the whole reason RKT succeded was because his humanity prevented TWSAIS from realizing he would end his peoples immortality. Their powers don't manifest directly enough to actually attack him. He killed their food source. He was NOT stronger than them. My point is, while stronger than odin, RKT is not bounds beyond him. 
@THORSON said: 

umm...no

Be specific.
#16 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

RKT.

#17 Posted by Fernando072295REBORN (502 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor, easily. Surtur's a high skyfather. That's a solid tier below RKT.

#18 Posted by dondave (36554 posts) - - Show Bio

RKT ftw

Online
#19 Posted by MzombieX (975 posts) - - Show Bio

"Shall we crush the world as we fight? Or shall we smite the stars?" - Surtur

(They do all of the above in the process, but in the end RKT wins)

#20 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

@highaccuser: The Runes ARE more powerful than the Odinforce, that's why Odin didn't even tried to fight TWSAS.

Runes are a part of Odin actually, thats why RKT has to hang himself twice in the tree of knoweledge, because Odin had already done so once, and already received the power of Runes.

Make no mistake Odin's powers and RKT power are identical, with RKT somehow having gained greater power albiet from exact same source.

Also the reason Odin did not fight Those Who Sit In the Shadows was because they would know Odin's every move, Thor had the luxury because his humanility shielded him from them. Also Thor never actually fought them, just cut off their power source.

RKT would "likely" win as he is above Odin , as solidified by bio.

#21 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

Lets try and substantiate some stuffs i said above, as most people seem to disagree with what i am saying.

Claim 1: Thor has Rune powers Odin didn't (that's a false claim)

First, when Thor hangs himself in order to gain Rune's power during Thor volume 3, 84, this is what is said on panel

Pretty clearly shows Odin had done the same and gained Rune powers long before Thor.

Furthermore substantiated by the fact that the soul purpose of Ragnarok arc for Thor was :

It clearly reads: "The thunder god leaves to seek the knowledge of his father to face the of of all things.

Every knoweledge and power Thor received, is identical to what Odin has always had, Thor however becomes more powerful in the process, he doesnt really have any new powers that Odin did not.

Claim 2:Thor broke the barrier imprisoning Surtur which Surtur + Twilight Sword + his army couldn't (rather than being completely false this is more of an unsubstantiated claim)

Also before anyone claims RKT broke the barrier imprisoning Surtur, which Surtur with Twilight Sword and his minions with hammer couldn't, here are the fact.

1. No where was it ever mentioned that Surtur couldnt break the barrier himself, nor do we ever see Surtur or his minions trying to break the barrier, but we rather see Surtur silently forging his weapons, here are the relevant scans from Thor volume 3, 85

2.The whole point of Ragnarok story arc was Surtur has risen from obvilion, come back to life after having been killed by Designati, and was going to bring Ragnarok , the end of all things, for Asgard. This is substantiated as follows:

First cut is from The Mighty Thor vol3 84

So it points that:

1. Surtur has reason

2. Thor finds the event of Ragnarok coming into light

If Surtur was indeed incapable of breaking the barrier, pray tell how exactly was he going to cause Ragnarok then, why exactly did Thor "know" Ragnarok was going to happen soon?

The next issue substantiate similar stuffs:

Claim 3: RKT was omniscient (he wasnt)

No where in the issue has it ever been alluded that he was or has ever been omniscience.

The scan people like to quote is from Thor volume 3, 84. Here are the complete scans:

The scan which particular is shown is this:

Two imporant things:

1. The scan itself doesnt even claim Thor is omniscience lets look at every panel and see what its said:

2. After having seen enough he breaks the connection with the Mimir tree as seen in the next scan, because he has seen enough. That points to the fact that he cant see all these without being hung into the Mirir tree, if he could whats the whole point of breaking the connection because you dont want to see enough??

Lack of evidence suggesting he is omniscience should mean he isnt , right??

Claim 4: RKT beat Those Who Sit In the Shadows, who Odin didnt even fight

Here is the fight between RKT and TWSIS

Thor vol 3, 85

Two important stuffs:

1. Thor doesnt actualy fight them but does something they never expected him to do, instead of going to try and fight to stop Ragnarok, which is what Odin has alwayd done, he lets the ragnarok happen, but comes to their domain and breaks the thread of fate, their source of food.

2. The reason Thor did this and Odin was not because Thor is vastly more powerful but because of his human side that shielded him from TWSIS

Firstly,this panel clearly says it was Ragnarok and its energy that was keeping them alive , an energy Thor has now cut off from them by breaking the thread of fate

As it reads: "Those who sit above in the shadow were celestial beings who lived off the great energies generated by the lives of the norse gods. With each cycle they would feed; each Ragnarok gave them sustenance, gave them life"

Secondly the reason Thor got an upper hand against TWSIS was his humanity which is substantiated by this panel:

As it reads: "You have truly set your people free, thunger god. You possessed something Those Who Sit In Shadow could not comprehend, and therefore not foresee. Your knowledge of humanity, a gift from your father, shielded your true intentions from the shadow gods. They could not see that you would not walk blindly into battle the Ragnarok without seeing another way and thereby revealing their intent.

At this panel:

As it reads: Where the asgardian gods embraced a singular inevitable death-- the shadow gods trapped them in a never ending cycle -- your human experience sought another way.. not a path of battle, but one of knowledge".

So thats the reason why Odin or any other Asgardians never fought TWIS, because they all though there is only 1 way, first life and death. Thor found another way, thanks to his humanity.

Information on here make your own judgement about RKT and his power level, its pretty much always over-estimated.

#22 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall  
Very good. Take that Thor fans! There still is one question. Why didn't TWSAIS stop RKT? I therorized that it was because their powers don't manifest offensively. Also, how did RKT get more powerful than odin?
#23 Posted by 18hunt (2903 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@THORSON said:

THOR takes this.

Both of you (look like) are Thor fans. You can only stay if you give non-fanboyish logic.@18hunt said:

Surtur would lose without his sword. But... He can win this

HE SUMMON FIVE BILLION FIRE DEMONS AND WHILE DISTRACTING THOR HE SLASHES HIM IN HALF

So... is he more powefull individually? Keep in mind TS can stomp odin-level beings.

Individually RKT is stronger but Surtur can summon an army of fire demons too powerful for most heroes. Im not saying this will take thor down, but it would give surtur a opening and thor a distraction

#24 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

@18hunt said:

@highaccuser said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@THORSON said:

THOR takes this.

Both of you (look like) are Thor fans. You can only stay if you give non-fanboyish logic.@18hunt said:

Surtur would lose without his sword. But... He can win this

HE SUMMON FIVE BILLION FIRE DEMONS AND WHILE DISTRACTING THOR HE SLASHES HIM IN HALF

So... is he more powefull individually? Keep in mind TS can stomp odin-level beings.

Individually RKT is stronger but Surtur can summon an army of fire demons too powerful for most heroes. Im not saying this will take thor down, but it would give surtur a opening and thor a distraction

RKT has foresight ability, i don't think Surtur can distract him, Thor would win this fight, but Surtur will give him a moderate challenge though.

i think a better fight would be RKT + Odin vs Surtur with Twilight Sword and Eternal Flame

#25 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@Killemall Very good. Take that Thor fans! There still is one question. Why didn't TWSAIS stop RKT? I therorized that it was because their powers don't manifest offensively. Also, how did RKT get more powerful than odin?

Thanks you :)

We know little to nothing about TWSAIS, we dont even know if they can actually attack, all we know is that Asgardians considered them gods and never once questioned if they could have been free from their influence, they just took it as a single way of life, something that had to be done. So there could be plentry of reason, perhaps they can manifest physically, perhaps they dont even have fire power its like like we have seen them fight or anyone has said they can fight and so one.

Its unclear why RKT became more powerful, few possible reason would be:

1. He had to sacrifice more than Odin did, 2 eyes instead of one.

2. Could be because of his humanity.

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: Apart from when he was hung up on the Mimir's tree of knowledge he has never shown any sort of foresight, not sure if what he got while hanging on the tree of knowledge lasted with him after he broke free, or it was a one time thing (i still think its a one time thing).

Although after sacrificing his eyes, he got 2 glow-eyes in place of his physical eyes, maybe he does not sure. Just throwing my 2 cents into it, not sure if it helps at all.

#26 Posted by New_World_Order (13036 posts) - - Show Bio

@18hunt said:

@highaccuser said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@THORSON said:

THOR takes this.

Both of you (look like) are Thor fans. You can only stay if you give non-fanboyish logic.@18hunt said:

Surtur would lose without his sword. But... He can win this

HE SUMMON FIVE BILLION FIRE DEMONS AND WHILE DISTRACTING THOR HE SLASHES HIM IN HALF

So... is he more powefull individually? Keep in mind TS can stomp odin-level beings.

Individually RKT is stronger but Surtur can summon an army of fire demons too powerful for most heroes. Im not saying this will take thor down, but it would give surtur a opening and thor a distraction

They won't distract him one bit. His shields tanked punches from Mangog easily. And he can just kill them with a AOE attack.

#27 Posted by New_World_Order (13036 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Lets try and substantiate some stuffs i said above, as most people seem to disagree with what i am saying.

Claim 1: Thor has Rune powers Odin didn't (that's a false claim)

First, when Thor hangs himself in order to gain Rune's power during Thor volume 3, 84, this is what is said on panel

Pretty clearly shows Odin had done the same and gained Rune powers long before Thor.

Furthermore substantiated by the fact that the soul purpose of Ragnarok arc for Thor was :

It clearly reads: "The thunder god leaves to seek the knowledge of his father to face the of of all things.

Every knoweledge and power Thor received, is identical to what Odin has always had, Thor however becomes more powerful in the process, he doesnt really have any new powers that Odin did not.

Claim 2:Thor broke the barrier imprisoning Surtur which Surtur + Twilight Sword + his army couldn't (rather than being completely false this is more of an unsubstantiated claim)

Also before anyone claims RKT broke the barrier imprisoning Surtur, which Surtur with Twilight Sword and his minions with hammer couldn't, here are the fact.

1. No where was it ever mentioned that Surtur couldnt break the barrier himself, nor do we ever see Surtur or his minions trying to break the barrier, but we rather see Surtur silently forging his weapons, here are the relevant scans from Thor volume 3, 85

2.The whole point of Ragnarok story arc was Surtur has risen from obvilion, come back to life after having been killed by Designati, and was going to bring Ragnarok , the end of all things, for Asgard. This is substantiated as follows:

First cut is from The Mighty Thor vol3 84

So it points that:

1. Surtur has reason

2. Thor finds the event of Ragnarok coming into light

If Surtur was indeed incapable of breaking the barrier, pray tell how exactly was he going to cause Ragnarok then, why exactly did Thor "know" Ragnarok was going to happen soon?

The next issue substantiate similar stuffs:

Claim 3: RKT was omniscient (he wasnt)

No where in the issue has it ever been alluded that he was or has ever been omniscience.

The scan people like to quote is from Thor volume 3, 84. Here are the complete scans:

The scan which particular is shown is this:

Two imporant things:

1. The scan itself doesnt even claim Thor is omniscience lets look at every panel and see what its said:

2. After having seen enough he breaks the connection with the Mimir tree as seen in the next scan, because he has seen enough. That points to the fact that he cant see all these without being hung into the Mirir tree, if he could whats the whole point of breaking the connection because you dont want to see enough??

Lack of evidence suggesting he is omniscience should mean he isnt , right??

Claim 4: RKT beat Those Who Sit In the Shadows, who Odin didnt even fight

Here is the fight between RKT and TWSIS

Thor vol 3, 85

Two important stuffs:

1. Thor doesnt actualy fight them but does something they never expected him to do, instead of going to try and fight to stop Ragnarok, which is what Odin has alwayd done, he lets the ragnarok happen, but comes to their domain and breaks the thread of fate, their source of food.

2. The reason Thor did this and Odin was not because Thor is vastly more powerful but because of his human side that shielded him from TWSIS

Firstly,this panel clearly says it was Ragnarok and its energy that was keeping them alive , an energy Thor has now cut off from them by breaking the thread of fate

As it reads: "Those who sit above in the shadow were celestial beings who lived off the great energies generated by the lives of the norse gods. With each cycle they would feed; each Ragnarok gave them sustenance, gave them life"

Secondly the reason Thor got an upper hand against TWSIS was his humanity which is substantiated by this panel:

As it reads: "You have truly set your people free, thunger god. You possessed something Those Who Sit In Shadow could not comprehend, and therefore not foresee. Your knowledge of humanity, a gift from your father, shielded your true intentions from the shadow gods. They could not see that you would not walk blindly into battle the Ragnarok without seeing another way and thereby revealing their intent.

At this panel:

As it reads: Where the asgardian gods embraced a singular inevitable death-- the shadow gods trapped them in a never ending cycle -- your human experience sought another way.. not a path of battle, but one of knowledge".

So thats the reason why Odin or any other Asgardians never fought TWIS, because they all though there is only 1 way, first life and death. Thor found another way, thanks to his humanity.

Information on here make your own judgement about RKT and his power level, its pretty much always over-estimated.

Man you downgrade Rune King Thor -.-

#28 Edited by MzombieX (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Two imporant things:

"1. The scan itself doesnt even claim Thor is omniscience lets look at every panel and see what its said:

2. After having seen enough he breaks the connection with the Mimir tree as seen in the next scan, because he has seen enough. That points to the fact that he cant see all these without being hung into the Mirir tree, if he could whats the whole point of breaking the connection because you dont want to see enough??

Lack of evidence suggesting he is omniscience should mean he isnt , right??"

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just a technical note - Mimir is one of 3 wells found at the roots of Yggdrasil (The World Tree) named after the primal God of Wisdom who fought during the Aesir/Vanir war. Thor hung himself from the branches of Yggdrasil, not the Mimir Tree, but had cast his eyes into the well of Mimir.

It clearly states: (Thor perceives ALL THINGS, animal & mineral, the science of man, the past - control over the present - the future, past the knowing of gods, the relation of man-god-child-father-creator-destroyer, through the veil of time, beyond quantum structure, beyond cosmic architecture, into nothingness, destruction & resurrection. The future of ALL THINGS, of every man & every beast, every leaf on every tree, every deed seen & unseen, every battle lost & won.)

Please tell me what the writer could have possibly left out that would convince you of omniscience?

The writer is going completely out of his way to creatively express the very dictionary definition of Omniscience - "Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving ALL THINGS"

During this revelation, Thor gained full knowledge of the Runes through his sacrifice. He is struck with a revelation at the brink of death. The truth of the cycle. Odin's intentions and the role Thor plays in the grand scheme of things. That he must die & be reborn, only to bring about the end of all things by his own hand. That HE must become the destroyer. Out of resistance to this knowledge, Thor breaks his bindings ... as he slips into the underworld. "And so, you die. Death comes for us all ... and gives us wings." Odin sacrificed his eye for wisdom and took himself to the brink of Death. A sacrifice OF himself --- TO himself. Thor sacrificed both his eyes and went beyond that brink ... and into the maw of Death itself. To walk a path where he will soon sacrifice not only himself --- but ALL THINGS.

He does not say " I have seen enough." Or anything about breaking the connection, not allowing him to see anymore. He says "NO! I Cannot!!! ... I Refuse!" Symbolic of Christ on the cross, In an initial moment of weakness, part of his humanity came to light before death reveals itself. He resists the truth, that he must bring about Ragnarok. There is no evidence at all to suggest that he lost the wisdom & knowledge he attained through his sacrifice. That he somehow needs to remain hanging from the tree to maintain that wisdom.

It states that the magic of the runes and wisdom of the well, is what gives him the power to know these things. He still possesses the power of the runes after the fact. He uses that very power to will Mangog into nothingness. Loki later on questions where he got this power of the runes. When Loki tells Thor to ask him why he has committed such atrocities, Thor replies that he need not ask. For he knows the darkest crevices of Loki's mind. Things about Loki that even he himself does not know. He sees his pain and how it controls him.

Lack of evidence suggesting he was NOT Omniscient. Far more evidence to suggest he was.

The writer spoke the very definition of the word, was slapping us in the face with it, and might as well have said The Alpha & The Omega - The Beginning & The End.

#29 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@MzombieX said:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just a technical note - Mimir is one of 3 wells found at the roots of Yggdrasil (The World Tree) named after the primal God of Wisdom who fought during the Aesir/Vanir war. Thor hung himself from the branches of Yggdrasil, not the Mimir Tree, but had cast his eyes into the well of Mimir.

Fair enough :)

It clearly states: (Thor perceives ALL THINGS, animal & mineral, the science of man, the past - control over the present - the future, past the knowing of gods, the relation of man-god-child-father-creator-destroyer, through the veil of time, beyond quantum structure, beyond cosmic architecture, into nothingness, destruction & resurrection. The future of ALL THINGS, of every man & every beast, every leaf on every tree, every deed seen & unseen, every battle lost & won.)

Please tell me what the writer could have possibly left out that would convince you of omniscience?

The writer is going completely out of his way to creatively express the very dictionary definition of Omniscience - "Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving ALL THINGS"

And this is what i absolutely DONT agree.

Firstly you have to take into consideration the context it is been spoken at:

1. Defination of Ragnarok = end of ALL things.

So do you really believe Ragnarok was the end of what exactly? Universe? Multiverse? Megaverse? Omniverse? What exactly?

It is only Asgard, and thats in the context the line has been spoken.

Now revalue your own statement with that context and you will get a wildly different answer.

======================================================================================================================================

Thor perceives ALL THINGS, animal & mineral, the science of man, the past - control over the present - the future, past the knowing of gods, the relation of man-god-child-father-creator-destroyer, through the veil of time, beyond quantum structure, beyond cosmic architecture, into nothingness, destruction & resurrection. The future of ALL THINGS (which is of or related to asgard), of every man (in asgard) & every beast (in Asgard), every leaf on every tree (in asgard), every deed seen & unseen, every battle lost & won.

=======================================================================================================================================

In reply to the second question

======================================================================================================================================

Please tell me what the writer could have possibly left out that would convince you of omniscience?

======================================================================================================================================

. Proof or indication that he gains knowledge of anything that isn't Asgard, perhaps the simply use of the world omniscience.

During this revelation, Thor gained full knowledge of the Runes through his sacrifice. He is struck with a revelation at the brink of death. The truth of the cycle. Odin's intentions and the role Thor plays in the grand scheme of things. That he must die & be reborn, only to bring about the end of all things by his own hand. That HE must become the destroyer. Out of resistance to this knowledge, Thor breaks his bindings ... as he slips into the underworld. "And so, you die. Death comes for us all ... and gives us wings." Odin sacrificed his eye for wisdom and took himself to the brink of Death. A sacrifice OF himself --- TO himself.

Ok and? What exactly there says anything about Omniscence apart from he understood what Odin wanted him to understand. You are taking too literally the metaphor of Asgard.

Thor sacrificed both his eyes and went beyond that brink ... and into the maw of Death itself. To walk a path where he will soon sacrifice not only himself --- but ALL THINGS.

Yeah problem being he did not sacrifice 2 eyes to gain extra knoweledge, he did not go all the way to the brink of death just to gain extra knoweledge, he did so because he had to do it, because Odin had already sacrificed one eye and Odin had already hung himself, and mimir doesnt accept a sacrifice already given.

He does not say " I have seen enough." Or anything about breaking the connection, not allowing him to see anymore. He says "NO! I Cannot!!! ... I Refuse!" Symbolic of Christ on the cross, In an initial moment of weakness, part of his humanity came to light before death reveals itself. He resists the truth, that he must bring about Ragnarok. There is no evidence at all to suggest that he lost the wisdom & knowledge he attained through his sacrifice. That he somehow needs to remain hanging from the tree to maintain that wisdom.

Well he does break the chain, if he is going to have the same vision , constantly why break the chain? To how dissent, i say it was because he had seen enough, you can say he was saying because he refused to be the cause.

Also if you notice through the definition of what he gets is called "sight beyond sight" as oppose to omniscience.

Lack of evidence suggesting he was NOT Omniscient. Far more evidence to suggest he was.

The writer spoke the very definition of the word and might as well have said The Alpha & The Omega - The Beginning & The End.

Actually nothing suggests he is actually omniscient, apart from knowing things of Asgard, and the ability to control present, which i have no idea what it is meant to be apart from sounds awfully like empty hyperbole.

I mean would you really expect an omniscient being to :

Not to mention i could just as easily pull scans of Odin himself being claimed omnipotent, things like that are generally not taken literally unless evidence to back it up is shown, furthermore, you cant take things out of context in which the whole story is written. The stories talks about how ragnarok is the end of all thing, the cycle of life an death, yet all being localized to Asgard alone (not even the whole Asgardian universe). Given Asgard is a size of an island its not speaking much about the level of exposure and knowledge Thor amasses. Let alone the whole claim about omniscience.

#30 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: Sorry , to downgrade RKT wasnt my intention and i might need few correction on my post, thanks to (@MzombieX: ) correction. Btw did you know RKT > Set, Chthon, as well as Atum the God eater?

#31 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall  
So you're saying that RKT would lose because he is barely stronger than odin? 

#32 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@Killemall
So you're saying that RKT would lose because he is barely stronger than odin?

Nah i think RKT would likely win, given that Surtur is pretty much equal to Odin, after all Odin has beaten Surtur a lot more often than the other way around, he has beaten Surtur and Ymir together.

Also Twilight Sword doesnt amp Surtur, its just a pretty powerful sword (or weapon) capable of cutting through anything, much like Odin's Ragnarok sword. We have seen Surtur with Twilight Sword, killed by Thor (normal Thor) with a shadow of Ragnarok Sword.

But i think its a pretty even fight.

#33 Posted by New_World_Order (13036 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Sorry , to downgrade RKT wasnt my intention and i might need few correction on my post, thanks to (@MzombieX: ) correction. Btw did you know RKT > Set, Chthon, as well as Atum the God eater?

Lol no worries

#34 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said: 

Also Twilight Sword doesnt amp Surtur, its just a pretty powerful sword (or weapon) capable of cutting through anything, much like Odin's Ragnarok sword. We have seen Surtur with Twilight Sword, killed by Thor (normal Thor) with a shadow of Ragnarok Sword.

But i think its a pretty even fight.

Really? It did stomp ymir, who is equal to surtur. 
#35 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3448 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see surtur beating a RKT..Surtur is on the same level as Odin. And RKT is much more powerful than any skyfather

#36 Edited by MzombieX (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@MzombieX said:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just a technical note - Mimir is one of 3 wells found at the roots of Yggdrasil (The World Tree) named after the primal God of Wisdom who fought during the Aesir/Vanir war. Thor hung himself from the branches of Yggdrasil, not the Mimir Tree, but had cast his eyes into the well of Mimir.

Fair enough :)

It clearly states: (Thor perceives ALL THINGS, animal & mineral, the science of man, the past - control over the present - the future, past the knowing of gods, the relation of man-god-child-father-creator-destroyer, through the veil of time, beyond quantum structure, beyond cosmic architecture, into nothingness, destruction & resurrection. The future of ALL THINGS, of every man & every beast, every leaf on every tree, every deed seen & unseen, every battle lost & won.)

Please tell me what the writer could have possibly left out that would convince you of omniscience?

The writer is going completely out of his way to creatively express the very dictionary definition of Omniscience - "Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving ALL THINGS"

And this is what i absolutely DONT agree.

Firstly you have to take into consideration the context it is been spoken at:

1. Defination of Ragnarok = end of ALL things.

So do you really believe Ragnarok was the end of what exactly? Universe? Multiverse? Megaverse? Omniverse? What exactly?

It is only Asgard, and thats in the context the line has been spoken.

Now revalue your own statement with that context and you will get a wildly different answer.

======================================================================================================================================

Thor perceives ALL THINGS, animal & mineral, the science of man, the past - control over the present - the future, past the knowing of gods, the relation of man-god-child-father-creator-destroyer, through the veil of time, beyond quantum structure, beyond cosmic architecture, into nothingness, destruction & resurrection. The future of ALL THINGS (which is of or related to asgard), of every man (in asgard) & every beast (in Asgard), every leaf on every tree (in asgard), every deed seen & unseen, every battle lost & won.

=======================================================================================================================================

In reply to the second question

======================================================================================================================================

Please tell me what the writer could have possibly left out that would convince you of omniscience?

======================================================================================================================================

. Proof or indication that he gains knowledge of anything that isn't Asgard, perhaps the simply use of the world omniscience.

During this revelation, Thor gained full knowledge of the Runes through his sacrifice. He is struck with a revelation at the brink of death. The truth of the cycle. Odin's intentions and the role Thor plays in the grand scheme of things. That he must die & be reborn, only to bring about the end of all things by his own hand. That HE must become the destroyer. Out of resistance to this knowledge, Thor breaks his bindings ... as he slips into the underworld. "And so, you die. Death comes for us all ... and gives us wings." Odin sacrificed his eye for wisdom and took himself to the brink of Death. A sacrifice OF himself --- TO himself.

Ok and? What exactly there says anything about Omniscence apart from he understood what Odin wanted him to understand. You are taking too literally the metaphor of Asgard.

Thor sacrificed both his eyes and went beyond that brink ... and into the maw of Death itself. To walk a path where he will soon sacrifice not only himself --- but ALL THINGS.

Yeah problem being he did not sacrifice 2 eyes to gain extra knoweledge, he did not go all the way to the brink of death just to gain extra knoweledge, he did so because he had to do it, because Odin had already sacrificed one eye and Odin had already hung himself, and mimir doesnt accept a sacrifice already given.

He does not say " I have seen enough." Or anything about breaking the connection, not allowing him to see anymore. He says "NO! I Cannot!!! ... I Refuse!" Symbolic of Christ on the cross, In an initial moment of weakness, part of his humanity came to light before death reveals itself. He resists the truth, that he must bring about Ragnarok. There is no evidence at all to suggest that he lost the wisdom & knowledge he attained through his sacrifice. That he somehow needs to remain hanging from the tree to maintain that wisdom.

Well he does break the chain, if he is going to have the same vision , constantly why break the chain? To how dissent, i say it was because he had seen enough, you can say he was saying because he refused to be the cause.

Also if you notice through the definition of what he gets is called "sight beyond sight" as oppose to omniscience.

Lack of evidence suggesting he was NOT Omniscient. Far more evidence to suggest he was.

The writer spoke the very definition of the word and might as well have said The Alpha & The Omega - The Beginning & The End.

Actually nothing suggests he is actually omniscient, apart from knowing things of Asgard, and the ability to control present, which i have no idea what it is meant to be apart from sounds awfully like empty hyperbole.

I mean would you really expect an omniscient being to :

Not to mention i could just as easily pull scans of Odin himself being claimed omnipotent, things like that are generally not taken literally unless evidence to back it up is shown, furthermore, you cant take things out of context in which the whole story is written. The stories talks about how ragnarok is the end of all thing, the cycle of life an death, yet all being localized to Asgard alone (not even the whole Asgardian universe). Given Asgard is a size of an island its not speaking much about the level of exposure and knowledge Thor amasses. Let alone the whole claim about omniscience.

He doesn't have to use the word omniscience. It's not just implied, but the writer is slapping us in the face with it, and I would have been extremely disappointed if he had done so. If the writer has to hold the readers hand & go to that degree to come right out and say "And by the way. NOW THOR IS OMNISCIENT!" Then as an artist he hasn't done his job. Thank you Michael Oeming, for not assuming the reader is stupid.

What Ragnarok was the end of? It was most likely the end of the ancient Gods within the 9 realms. From their perspective of creation & destruction. The way the Pantheons are set up, each has their creationist legends and claim one thing or another that contradicts the other Pantheons. It's a sloppy mess. I'm fully aware that there are Abstracts beyond the Pantheons. In no way does that necessarily mean Thor wasn't able to peer into the workings of the Marvel Universe. To have knowledge of things greater than himself or the scope of a bigger picture out there. Thor was already familiar with Elder Gods beyond himself or Abstract Entities he's encountered prior to these events. He wasn't exactly sheltered & living in a bubble without knowledge of anything outside of Asgard. Is it that unlikely he was able to perceive these things in a different light, considering the power he had obtained? Odin was often aware of beings or sensing disturbances in the multiverse beyond Asgard. RKT went beyond him. Are you under the impression I'm saying RKT was "Omnipotent" & all powerful? That isn't the same thing as Omniscience. While we cannot prove without a doubt Thor had Omniscience beyond the scope of Asgard. I don't see why it would be dismissed altogether either.

You claim to be looking for the word Omniscient being used directly on panel. It will make you feel better because you see the word itself. Yet just like hyperbole, this would not be sufficient enough for you, as you mention scans of Odin being referred to as Omnipotent. So when it is there plain as day you may still dismiss it anyway. Here we have an instance where a writer chooses his words very carefully, describing in great detail the nature of a beings power, along with the process behind it ... spanning several books. What is being described is clearly Omniscience in every sense of the word. Yet now without the word being used directly on panel, you still won't accept it. Personally I would much rather have the nature & reason of their Omniscience explained in a believable way, than just seeing some guy be called Omniscient. You're placing too much emphasis on the word being there IMO. I felt the story did a fine job of describing the ascension of awareness, without needing to come right out and say so.

None of that section had anything to do with telling you it says the word Omniscience. What was said there, is correcting your false interpretation and statement about what Thor was expressing in that moment. When he broke the bonds before entering the underworld, what was taking place, & why. He does not say "I have seen enough." Which somehow translates in your mind, to him only being able to perceive this wisdom he had gained, while on the tree, and now that it's done he has lost it and cannot anymore. He says "NO! I Cannot!!! ... I Refuse!" Through some mistake, you made that other phrase up and built some other interpretation around it that doesn't fit.

While meditating on the tree, hanging between life & death, he gains the power of the Runes. It states that it is the magic of the Runes & wisdom of the Well, that gives him this power to see all. He clearly still possessed the power & wisdom of the Runes and is stated as much. He displays this wisdom throughout, until the end of the book. He peers into Loki's soul. Those Who Sit Above take notice of him and what he becomes. He in turn has revealed them, as their shadows no longer cloud his eyes and says he sees through them. Sight Beyond Sight? Is that somehow lost on you too? Near the end of the saga, he once again says to Loki that he has destroyed himself & been reborn. (That he knows the unknowable and sees the unseen.) Doesn't sound to me like he needs to still be on that tree to use this perception, now does it?

So he had to. And? ... So he sacrificed and did what he had to do. That's what a hero does. Not sure what your point is? Nobody said he was doing it for personal glory. The result being that he surpassed Odin. Had "Those Who Sit Above In Shadow" pissing themselves in awe of his wisdom. Bargaining for their existence by offering him a place beside them on the throne, to sit among the Gods of Gods.

Yes I can say he broke the chain, out of passion, because he was struck by the weight of his task. Because that is what happened. He was also about to slip into death and had seen all that was laid out before him. His task for the moment was complete. Not sure what you mean by having that vision constantly. He has had all revealed to him, has attained control & peace of mind with it, and he now sees beyond.

If you can't grasp the writer describing Thor's enlightenment as Omniscient, while he's spelling it out for you through the exact definition ... and then some. I really can't help you here.

Sure I would expect an omniscient being to say as much. Why the hell not? I thought it was a poetic way to describe absolute nothingness setting in. As he drifts out of existence and into the Thor/Odin sleep. A spark of light in an eternity of darkness was described. He says quite plain, that he feels the power fading from him. That he chooses to lie silent. To rest and strip his mind of all thoughts. Ragnarok had brought about the end.

I'm not talking about Omnipotence and how casually it is thrown around. I'm talking about the words on panel describing precisely the level of awareness Thor had obtained. Omniscience & Omnipotence are not quite the same thing. (Omniscience means - Infinite Knowledge) - (Omnipotence means - Infinite Power) I never claimed that Thor was TOAA.

Sorry for the massive length Killemall. I feel a little bad for you trying to sort through the responses Lol. Hope you can match them up, because I'm exhausted and too lazy to place your individual quotes there. :p Anyway this is my view on it. Agree to disagree, or respond if you like. Beyond my disagreement with you on this point. I thought you did a nice job with the rest of your original post and agree with most of the other points you made. So ... well said

#37 Edited by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Sorry , to downgrade RKT wasnt my intention and i might need few correction on my post, thanks to (@MzombieX: ) correction. Btw did you know RKT > Set, Chthon, as well as Atum the God eater?

Individually or all together? Where is this stated? Chthon's feats make this difficult to believe.  

Okay from what I understand the hierarchy of beings compared to odin is really confusing. I really just want to know what order Surtur, ymir, serpent, odin, king thor, rkt, celestial war odin, twilight sword, and ragnorak sword are in on a list. Someone please provide that.
#38 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Really? It did stomp ymir, who is equal to surtur.

I am unsure to what instance you are referring to, and who had the sword. But Twilight Wword has been a very powerful weapon, has always have, but it doesnt normally amp your stats. Its like giving Punisher a giant short gun, in a fight against Spiderman. Sure the shotgun would kill Spiderman outright, but that doesnt prevent Spiderman from having a good change of beating Punisher himself, perhaps by being able to take the short gun away from him.

The same should be true for Twilight Sword.

@MzombieX said:

He doesn't have to use the word omniscience. It's not just implied, but the writer is slapping us in the face with it, and I would have been extremely disappointed if he had done so. If the writer has to hold the readers hand & go to that degree to come right out and say "And by the way. NOW THOR IS OMNISCIENT!" Then as an artist he hasn't done his job. Thank you Michael Oeming, for not assuming the reader is stupid.

I do not deny the fact that Thor did get some greater vision, what was described as "sight beyond sight" , what i did not agree and still do not agree is Thro was omniscient. Also the use of word is important because Marvel has a whole hierarchy of foresight, a whole hierarchy of sight beyond sight.

Lets look at some example:

1. We have seen Madam Web demonstrate, at time, ability to see the future, that would be a classic definition of sight beyond sight.

2. Then we have Silver Surfer cosmic awareness that makes him aware of his immediate surrounding.

3. Then we have Galactus and his cosmic awareness, similar to Surfer but in a higher order.

4. Then we have Eon's awareness, where he can see the entire workings of universe, but can only see past and future of thing related to himself.

So we have from precog to varying level of cosmic awareness surrounding Marvel, so ther has to be an indication of what the sight beyond sight meant in order for it to be omniscient.

What Ragnarok was the end of? It was most likely the end of the ancient Gods within the 9 realms. From their perspective of creation & destruction. The way the Pantheons are set up, each has their creationist legends and claim one thing or another that contradicts the other Pantheons. It's a sloppy mess. I'm fully aware that there are Abstracts beyond the Pantheons. In no way does that necessarily mean Thor wasn't able to peer into the workings of the Marvel Universe. To have knowledge of things greater than himself or the scope of a bigger picture out there. Thor was already familiar with Elder Gods beyond himself or Abstract Entities he's encountered prior to these events. He wasn't exactly sheltered & living in a bubble without knowledge of anything outside of Asgard. Is it that unlikely he was able to perceive these things in a different light, considering the power he had obtained? Odin was often aware of beings or sensing disturbances in the multiverse beyond Asgard. RKT went beyond him. Are you under the impression I'm saying RKT was "Omnipotent" & all powerful? That isn't the same thing as Omniscience. While we cannot prove without a doubt Thor had Omniscience beyond the scope of Asgard. I don't see why it would be dismissed altogether either.

Ragnarok most often than not is just the death of Asgardians and is spread but limited to Norse pantheon.

The 9 realm however include things that has nothing to do with Norse pantheon, i.e. earth which actually is in a seperate universe (dimension) altogether from Asgardia pocket universe.

From Norse perspective Odin is the God who alongside 2 brothers created the entire universe, its a localized concept, far more localized than you would believe.

Having death with a know abstract, and Thor has known even "beyond" abstracts during Avengers Infinity, doesnt change the context in which the story is spoken. The Odin force refers to Ragnarok as the end of ALL things, yet we know the end at most is going to be extended to Norse pantheon and no more. So when he does gain the knowledge of ALL Things, the same logic should apply, unless there is something for us to make us believe otherwise.

None of that section had anything to do with telling you it says the word Omniscience. What was said there, is correcting your false interpretation and statement about what Thor was expressing in that moment. When he broke the bonds before entering the underworld, what was taking place, & why. He does not say "I have seen enough." Which somehow translates in your mind, to him only being able to perceive this wisdom he had gained, while on the tree, and now that it's done he has lost it and cannot anymore. He says "NO! I Cannot!!! ... I Refuse!" Through some mistake, you made that other phrase up and built some other interpretation around it that doesn't fit.

I think you misunderstood my response, i agreed with you one 1 part, which i agree my interpretation was incorrect and i conceded, and that part would be the underline part.

What i showed disagreed was in the fact that just because he did what Odin asked him to do, fullfilled them even grander than what Odin perhaps thought, doesnt show omniscience beyond a varying degree of cosmic awareness, something inherent by Heralds, Celestial, and virtually every abstract level being. Omniscience, in its genuine sense is shown by Eternity, when he is not sleeping, within his universe.

So he had to. And? ... So he sacrificed and did what he had to do. That's what a hero does. Not sure what your point is? Nobody said he was doing it for personal glory. The result being that he surpassed Odin. Had "Those Who Sit Above In Shadow" pissing themselves in awe of his wisdom. Bargaining for their existence by offering him a place beside them on the throne, to sit among the Gods of Gods.

Ok here we disagree a bit, what i am saying he Thor did not sacrifice 2 eyes instead of 1 because he wanted to gain extra knowledge but rather because anything less than that would not have been acceptable. Same goes with dying, therefore you cant normally assume a linear relationship like 2 eyes instead of one so his power should be double. What however it shows is since Thor sacrificed more he gains more knoweledge than Odin, to what degree is intentionally left vague.

TWSAS instance is different, or perhaps we interpret it different, it was Thor humanity that caused the difference, and unlike everyone else he started thing along a different line, perhaps dying in a glorious battle, which has always been Asgardian's pride, isnt the only solution. So unlike Odin, he actually went past that a decided to challange the so called Gods themselves. Sure they would offer him a position, wouldnt you, if you know a person is gunning for you?

The power level of Shadow Gods were left vague, apart from everyone believing they were gods and doing nothing against them, while Thor did something different.

Its not an argument of increased power and knoweldge, but rather a different perception, thanks to humanity, which is what the issue from that point on makes it pretty clear.

Sorry for the massive length Killemall. I feel a little bad for you trying to sort through the responses Lol. Hope you can match them up, because I'm exhausted and too lazy to place your individual quotes there. :p Anyway this is my view on it. Agree to disagree, or respond if you like. Beyond my disagreement with you on this point. I thought you did a nice job with the rest of your original post and agree with most of the other points you made. So ... well said

LOL i dont know about you man but i love this kind of things. This is exactly what comicvine is for, clashing of 2 ideas, without disrespect to each other. While we can agree to disagree whats the fun in that :p

The way i see it, i would love for you to continue laying down your ideas, and i would lay down mine. Sure i have been lazy in this reply, you bring more points i will try and bring up scans and pull stuffs for his bios to agree or disagree with it, by the end of thsi hopefully we come to an agreement. If all else fails we can diagree, but i would rather proved wrong than say i disagree, and you did correct me on one thing, and i am grateful, lets see you correct me on others :)

Dont know about u but to me this has been a treat, after reading you argument, thus far i have skimmed through Thor Dissemble twice, bios are left but will do that once more point come up. This helps me learn and understand the character better. Thor is lucky he can hang himself to gain extra knoweledge, me mortals have to debate long and hard to gain such foresight :)

#39 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Individually or all together?

Individually, but could likely be altogether.

Where is this stated?

Its not directly stated its infereed from bios.

Bio solidifies RKT is the most powerful incarnation of Thor

While one of the incarnation of Thor is when he was merged with Atum, the god eater.

The same incarnation pwned Set in his own dimension.

Further made plausible by the fact that Atum himself is on the same level as Odin as bios point it out.

It also says that he is more powerful that "most" godheads, and given Godhead is a collection of skyfather beings of varying power level, its reasonable to assume his power level falls somewhere in the same vicinity

It also says Atum is feared by the mightiest of Sky fathers and Godheads

Chthon's feats make this difficult to believe.

Should be the other way around shouldnt it. What exactly has Chthon done to show him a equal to Odin when most things he has done suggest he is likely below.

Here is a list of my collection of chronology threads, you will find a thread each for Chthon, Set and Atum (didnt make one for Gaea because she doesnt really fight at all)

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/killemall/collection-of-my-chronology-threads/87-89662/

Things you can look at is how Neptune, was able to hurt and banish Set, how Set despite having his servants pwned by Arishem never did anything to retaliate, how after being trapped in his prison used the energy Ghaur had absorbed from Dream celestial to break his prison, or how apart from his Astral essence being able to affect 9 worlds, hasnt done above a planetary scale, neither has Chthon. They are explained as universal threat but so goes for every herald of Galactus.

Also before anyone says HOM Wanda, Chthon has very little to do with it, as she was tapping into a limitless source of power, which according to Doom dwarfs the power of PR Beyonder, and the power was Life Entity (Avengers: Children Crusade).

I really just want to know what order Surtur, ymir, serpent, odin, king thor, rkt, celestial war odin, twilight sword, and ragnorak sword are in on a list. Someone please provide that.

You are never going to get a 100% correct answer for that.

1. Apart from his amped up version in Fear Itself, whose power level is left vague, we know Odin has beaten Serpent the two times he has fought, although prevented by prophecy for killing him, so Serpent, alongside Ymir are the weakest ones in the list, perhaps closely followed by King Thor.

2. Surtur and Odin are very close in terms of power level, Thor volume 1 is filled with Odin fighting and beating Surtur, but all of a sudden in Thor vol 2 40 Odin needed help to beat Surtur and died in the process, well so did Surtur but Odin had help Surtur didnt. Odin , Surtur about same level.

3. Celestial War Odin is an amped up ODin, RKT is Thor with similar power but to a higher degree than Odin, so they are closer in power level, with Odin having better feats.

4. Twilight and Ragnarok sword are pretty much considered equal. Both are mystically empowed, and capable of cutting through anything and frankly are meant to be anti-thesis of each other. Extremely powerful weapon, of similar size, of same magnitude, but they dont amp people like say IG, cosmic cube, or belt of strength.

#40 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Lets try and substantiate some stuffs i said above, as most people seem to disagree with what i am saying.

Claim 1: Thor has Rune powers Odin didn't (that's a false claim)

First, when Thor hangs himself in order to gain Rune's power during Thor volume 3, 84, this is what is said on panel

Pretty clearly shows Odin had done the same and gained Rune powers long before Thor.

Furthermore substantiated by the fact that the soul purpose of Ragnarok arc for Thor was :

It clearly reads: "The thunder god leaves to seek the knowledge of his father to face the of of all things.

Every knoweledge and power Thor received, is identical to what Odin has always had, Thor however becomes more powerful in the process, he doesnt really have any new powers that Odin did not.

The knowledge of the father would probably be eluding to the existence of Those Who Sit Above Shadow. It doesn't help that Odin as far as I remember never displayed any substantial knowledge of the runes that Thor primarily uses for most of his feats during the entire story line. What Thor did simply allowed him to gain power, he wasn't embraced by the Odin Power till he summoned Odin himself via rune magic to rescue him from Hela's touch.

Claim 2:Thor broke the barrier imprisoning Surtur which Surtur + Twilight Sword + his army couldn't (rather than being completely false this is more of an unsubstantiated claim)
Also before anyone claims RKT broke the barrier imprisoning Surtur, which Surtur with Twilight Sword and his minions with hammer couldn't, here are the fact.
1. No where was it ever mentioned that Surtur couldnt break the barrier himself, nor do we ever see Surtur or his minions trying to break the barrier, but we rather see Surtur silently forging his weapons, here are the relevant scans from Thor volume 3, 85
2.The whole point of Ragnarok story arc was Surtur has risen from obvilion, come back to life after having been killed by Designati, and was going to bring Ragnarok , the end of all things, for Asgard. This is substantiated as follows:
First cut is from The Mighty Thor vol3 84
So it points that:
1. Surtur has reason
2. Thor finds the event of Ragnarok coming into light
If Surtur was indeed incapable of breaking the barrier, pray tell how exactly was he going to cause Ragnarok then, why exactly did Thor "know" Ragnarok was going to happen soon?
The next issue substantiate similar stuffs:

There was a barrier worth mentioning? Given Thor with the Twilight Sword was warping the realms, I'm not sure what would have stopped Surtur from doing so. Though I guess the fact Surtur was happily forging weapons and not marching on Asgard could be used as an indication that Thor's choice to clear a path enabled him to do so at that moment or at least expedited the process.

The fact Loki was shocked at Thor's actions, that seemingly enabled Surtur to march onto Ragnarok kinda doesn't help your argument.

Thor in this story line was aware of every thing, in this case he actively participated in enabling Ragnarok to happen.

Claim 3: RKT was omniscient (he wasnt)
No where in the issue has it ever been alluded that he was or has ever been omniscience.
The scan people like to quote is from Thor volume 3, 84. Here are the complete scans:
The scan which particular is shown is this:
Two imporant things:
1. The scan itself doesnt even claim Thor is omniscience lets look at every panel and see what its said:
2. After having seen enough he breaks the connection with the Mimir tree as seen in the next scan, because he has seen enough. That points to the fact that he cant see all these without being hung into the Mirir tree, if he could whats the whole point of breaking the connection because you dont want to see enough??
Lack of evidence suggesting he is omniscience should mean he isnt , right??

Here is where you lose me, you're more or less knocking at the concept because it doesn't explicitly say 'omniscient' regardless of achieving this sense of knowing all that was, is and more or less from his perspective will be. Namely his hesitation, why he breaks the rope and voices his not wanting to comply with destiny. You could argue he simply gained that knowledge of the future, but the issue is he wouldn't be the only aesir that could look into the future to see ahead of what happens in regards to time.

Heimdall is one of the apparent aesir that could do the same. In general characters such as Odin and Galactus also posses some level of omniscience in terms of what will be when they want to have said ability. Trying to knock Thor down in arguably his most powerful state, at more or less their level, seems silly.

Going off the Heimdall angle, I could think of a few moments of prophecy he's had in the last year or two alone that make it apparent these gods can see into the future. Not all of them are related to his ridiculous enhanced perception, but outright gleaming into the future. One of them where he challenges Odin and responds by telling him to see how the fight will end.

Don't have the book on hand to post the scan, but I'll get around to it. It was from one of the recent events, either the Galactus Seed or Fear Itself, probably the Galactus Seed.

Regardless the perspective Odin and Thor had was cosmic at that point, regardless of arguments.

Is it full blown absolute omniscience? Nope, only beings sporting that are IG+ characters, such as Adam Warlock with the IG, the Living Tribunal and what have you.

Claim 4: RKT beat Those Who Sit In the Shadows, who Odin didnt even fight
Here is the fight between RKT and TWSIS
Thor vol 3, 85

Just to point this outright, not so much a claim. It actually happened. They believed they knew how this entire scenario would end, Thor said otherwise and proved his future was the one that panned out.

Two important stuffs:
1. Thor doesnt actualy fight them but does something they never expected him to do, instead of going to try and fight to stop Ragnarok, which is what Odin has alwayd done, he lets the ragnarok happen, but comes to their domain and breaks the thread of fate, their source of food.
2. The reason Thor did this and Odin was not because Thor is vastly more powerful but because of his human side that shielded him from TWSIS
Firstly,this panel clearly says it was Ragnarok and its energy that was keeping them alive , an energy Thor has now cut off from them by breaking the thread of fate

The argument could be made on their complete inability to stop him if they had the power to do so in the first place.

As it reads: "Those who sit above in the shadow were celestial beings who lived off the great energies generated by the lives of the norse gods. With each cycle they would feed; each Ragnarok gave them sustenance, gave them life"
Secondly the reason Thor got an upper hand against TWSIS was his humanity which is substantiated by this panel:
As it reads: "You have truly set your people free, thunger god. You possessed something Those Who Sit In Shadow could not comprehend, and therefore not foresee. Your knowledge of humanity, a gift from your father, shielded your true intentions from the shadow gods. They could not see that you would not walk blindly into battle the Ragnarok without seeing another way and thereby revealing their intent.
At this panel:
As it reads: Where the asgardian gods embraced a singular inevitable death-- the shadow gods trapped them in a never ending cycle -- your human experience sought another way.. not a path of battle, but one of knowledge".
So thats the reason why Odin or any other Asgardians never fought TWIS, because they all though there is only 1 way, first life and death. Thor found another way, thanks to his humanity.
Information on here make your own judgement about RKT and his power level, its pretty much always over-estimated.

His humanity gleamed from his time on Earth gave him this aura of unpredictablility that TWSAS couldn't predict. It seems akin to Galactus' inability to feed himself simply because of how evolved his perception is compared to that of his heralds / lower beings. Albeit you could take all this dialogue as a grain of salt given the Odin Power had no idea what Thor was doing most of this story-line and more or less followed him around being surprised by everything he did - it doesn't put much value into what it does finally say.

Every character on this forum is blown to epic proportions on these forums, case and point Manhattan whose best feats are busting tanks. People have made the argument the guy could take on the Surfer and then some.

For me I'm actually unsure. It depends if Surtur was sporting the Twilight Sword in Ragnarok, because Thor was pretty confident in his speaking towards Surtur that a battle between the two would end in his favor.

@highaccuser said:

@Killemall Very good. Take that Thor fans! There still is one question. Why didn't TWSAIS stop RKT? I therorized that it was because their powers don't manifest offensively. Also, how did RKT get more powerful than odin?

What am I supposed to be taking again? It's two different perspectives being gleamed from the same text being argued here.

Their powers don't manifest offensively? They've been actively manipulating the events of Ragnarok to much on the energies released since the beginning of the cycle - what they couldn't do was control Thor - namely why they were begging him to stop his actions. He gained the power of the runes, IE plot device from the world tree to give him more magical power not available to Odin. His whole trick to prevent Hela from getting him was done completely without aid of the Odin Power.

#41 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

The knowledge of the father would probably be eluding to the existence of Those Who Sit Above Shadow. It doesn't help that Odin as far as I remember never displayed any substantial knowledge of the runes that Thor primarily uses for most of his feats during the entire story line. What Thor did simply allowed him to gain power, he wasn't embraced by the Odin Power till he summoned Odin himself via rune magic to rescue him from Hela's touch.

It wasnt the fact that Odin wasnt aware of the Those Who Sit in the Shadows but rather that, much like all Asgardian, he took that as given.

Secondly, how exactly would we know what abilities Odin used was based on Rune Magic and what wasnt. Which particular ability from Thor, apart from him calling out Odin's spirit, which feat eactly does show RKT using Rune Magic?

The same thing should be true for Odin, he has done most of the stuffs Thor has done. Thor one shotted Mangog by releasing his spirit, Odin did exactly the same only. How do we distinguish it was Rune's power as opposed to any other powers?

In a non-canon verse we have seen Odin without Odin Force, march to Hell and punk Mephisto, any abilities without Odin Force is bound to be Runes. I know its a what if, but the point was Marvel has shown Odin use powers other than Odin Force hence Rune isnt something new to him.

There was a barrier worth mentioning? Given Thor with the Twilight Sword was warping the realms, I'm not sure what would have stopped Surtur from doing so. Though I guess the fact Surtur was happily forging weapons and not marching on Asgard could be used as an indication that Thor's choice to clear a path enabled him to do so at that moment or at least expedited the process.

There was a barrier, a magical one at that, not sure if tha twas worth mentioning. The reams in Asgardia universe are seperated by barriers. That being said with Twilight Sword Surtur should reasonably able to pass through it which was my point exactly.

The fact Loki was shocked at Thor's actions, that seemingly enabled Surtur to march onto Ragnarok kinda doesn't help your argument.

Not sure i follow lets look at the panel you are referring to

It looks pretty clearly that Loki was shocked Thor wasnt going to fight Surtur, the way he though, despite Surtur having killed Odin. Not sure how that undermines anything i have said, or what eactly does that undermine?

Thor in this story line was aware of every thing, in this case he actively participated in enabling Ragnarok to happen.

Perhas yes, but i am sure what you are drawing this from. He was specifically shown what he is supposed to do, which he initially refused and then carried out, as shown by Rune magic. The whole point was Ragnarok had to happen, and he let it happen, i dont recall anything apart from when he has hung up on the world tree that shows he was aware of everything.

What he however does have is a sight beyond sight, but thats something plentry of people have and in cosmic terms often called cosmic awareness, albiet on a variying level.

Here is where you lose me, you're more or less knocking at the concept because it doesn't explicitly say 'omniscient' regardless of achieving this sense of knowing all that was, is and more or less from his perspective will be. Namely his hesitation, why he breaks the rope and voices his not wanting to comply with destiny. You could argue he simply gained that knowledge of the future, but the issue is he wouldn't be the only aesir that could look into the future to see ahead of what happens in regards to time.

Well firstly RKT did gain something sight beyond sight, but what we do not know is if it was even close to omniscient.

You are saying he has omniscience because he knew what to do, well he was shown what to do that wouldnt have been very hard now would it?

But i get the feeling your defination of what RKT got as a sight beyond sight, and mine are identical. I believe Thor was completely aware of Asgardia universe, but not beyond. That isnt much differen that say what Galactus already has, more or less of that level, as opposed to IG or LT. The complete omniscient.

Going off the Heimdall angle, I could think of a few moments of prophecy he's had in the last year or two alone that make it apparent these gods can see into the future. Not all of them are related to his ridiculous enhanced perception, but outright gleaming into the future. One of them where he challenges Odin and responds by telling him to see how the fight will end.

Don't have the book on hand to post the scan, but I'll get around to it. It was from one of the recent events, either the Galactus Seed or Fear Itself, probably the Galactus Seed.

I am well aware of that, i dont know if you recall i did show you a scan of Odin knowing about King Thor going bad before Thor even inherented Odin Force.

My argument is based around the fact that without a panel confirmation, what Thor got is very similar to what Odin always had, but to a little higher degree. How much higher we dont know.

Regardless the perspective Odin and Thor had was cosmic at that point, regardless of arguments.

Is it full blown absolute omniscience? Nope, only beings sporting that are IG+ characters, such as Adam Warlock with the IG, the Living Tribunal and what have you.

What you said on the secon part is exactly what i am trying to say, mroe so done because of a long argument with Alyssabird, and Pyrogram, who strated claiming it was complete omniscience, as complete and absolute it gets, while my argument was its more of less what Galacuts has, in the form of cosmic awareness.

Also not sure what the scan is supposed to show, Odin showed IRon man the universe, not sure i follow the logic there.

Just to point this outright, not so much a claim. It actually happened. They believed they knew how this entire scenario would end, Thor said otherwise and proved his future was the one that panned out.

I was more pointing towards the fact that Odin not fighting TWSIS is bound by context.

Secondly, no where in the issue was it said Shadow Gods knew how the scenario would end, all they said was here:

To quote "You have seen our game, and you call us on it. You have bested us, and for that , we are in awe".

Which to me looks like he is saying well now you (unlikely ODin) understood our game, and are finally doing something Odin never did.

Moving back to why Thor did something and Odin never did : same old panel the humanity argument

The argument could be made on their complete inability to stop him if they had the power to do so in the first place.

We dont even know how their powers work, we dont even know if they can attack, if they can in fact smite someone down.

All we have is that they were somehow responsible for Ragnarok, but what did they do is totally unclear. We know this rangnarok was going to happen because Loki brought back Surtur from his death, and it was Surtur and his army going to kill everyone and TWIS would eat their dinner. So what exactly have they done to suggest they can attack.

This is really, really a hollow feat, and even Thor harming them was all because he cut off their food source, he doesn't attack them directly, he doesn't blow their heads up,he cuts them off the very energy that gives them birth, by breaking a thread of fate, which apparently has always been there.

His humanity gleamed from his time on Earth gave him this aura of unpredictablility that TWSAS couldn't predict. It seems akin to Galactus' inability to feed himself simply because of how evolved his perception is compared to that of his heralds / lower beings. Albeit you could take all this dialogue as a grain of salt given the Odin Power had no idea what Thor was doing most of this story-line and more or less followed him around being surprised by everything he did - it doesn't put much value into what it does finally say.

This i agree, that what i am pointing out. IT was humanity that for reason unknown ave RKT 2 things:

a. Ability to question is gods, and unlike other Asgardians to see perhaps there is another way, dying for glory isnt the only answer.

b. Gave him something that shielded his "ture" intention from the shadow gods, could they have done something had they known what his true intention are? perhaps, perhaps not, no indication was shown on the comics, and its all guess work from there.

Every character on this forum is blown to epic proportions on these forums, case and point Manhattan whose best feats are busting tanks. People have made the argument the guy could take on the Surfer and then some.

For me I'm actually unsure. It depends if Surtur was sporting the Twilight Sword in Ragnarok, because Thor was pretty confident in his speaking towards Surtur that a battle between the two would end in his favor.

Totally agree, but i would put Elder Gods as an example but Manhattan seem fine.

Surtur did not have a sword when RKT showed up, but when RKT blasts a way we see Surtur is holding a sword, reasonabe to believe its Twilight Sword, i mean when you have a kick ass sword with you, why would you take any other inferior copy in the final battle?

I also think RKT would win but i think its a lot closer than what people are making out to be. RKT s more powerful than Surtur no argument there, but Surtur has a sword that could cut RKT into pieces just fine, provided he connects.

Besides Surtur doesnt have a very good record of weilding the sword, going back to Everything Burns story arc he had the twilight sword on his hand before being kiled by Thor using a plot device.

What am I supposed to be taking again? It's two different perspectives being gleamed from the same text being argued here.

If you go check out Rune King Thor vs Galactus thread created by Alyssa or perhaps RKT/ Galactus vs Arishem and Exitar you would being to see what those points were meant to say. Argument were being made to the effect that since RKT is omniscient, beating him is virtually impossible.

Their powers don't manifest offensively? They've been actively manipulating the events of Ragnarok to much on the energies released since the beginning of the cycle - what they couldn't do was control Thor - namely why they were begging him to stop his actions. He gained the power of the runes, IE plot device from the world tree to give him more magical power not available to Odin. His whole trick to prevent Hela from getting him was done completely without aid of the Odin Power.

We dont know how their power manifest to being with, what evidence can bring forth to suggest they can in fact use powers offensively?

They were influencing the cycle yes, but how and what exactly did they do. After all everything wad done by Loki, it was his act of being surtur back that was the beginng of Ragnarok. And the ragnarok ended with Surtur fighting and killing them all, so how exactly does that show they wer capable of forming a physical attack.

Power of Runes , i dont think, was the plot device. He went further than what Odin did, he sacrificed more, he became more powerful, to what degree we dont know. Nor do we actually see him do something beyond what ODin has been shown capable of doing. If anything Odin not walking up and breaking the thread of fate while showing Shadow gods the middle finger was the plot.

If anything the plot device in RKT power was his humanity, after all that is what the issue stresses again and again. And readers can go, oh yes humanity rocks.

#42 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@isaac_clarke said:

The knowledge of the father would probably be eluding to the existence of Those Who Sit Above Shadow. It doesn't help that Odin as far as I remember never displayed any substantial knowledge of the runes that Thor primarily uses for most of his feats during the entire story line. What Thor did simply allowed him to gain power, he wasn't embraced by the Odin Power till he summoned Odin himself via rune magic to rescue him from Hela's touch.

It wasnt the fact that Odin wasnt aware of the Those Who Sit in the Shadows but rather that, much like all Asgardian, he took that as given.

Secondly, how exactly would we know what abilities Odin used was based on Rune Magic and what wasnt. Which particular ability from Thor, apart from him calling out Odin's spirit, which feat eactly does show RKT using Rune Magic?

The same thing should be true for Odin, he has done most of the stuffs Thor has done. Thor one shotted Mangog by releasing his spirit, Odin did exactly the same only. How do we distinguish it was Rune's power as opposed to any other powers?

In a non-canon verse we have seen Odin without Odin Force, march to Hell and punk Mephisto, any abilities without Odin Force is bound to be Runes. I know its a what if, but the point was Marvel has shown Odin use powers other than Odin Force hence Rune isnt something new to him.

Odin was aware of them, as was Loki - the narrative makes it very clear that Odin in particular knew what TWSAS (Those Who Sit Above Shadow) intentions were and planned accordingly to give Thor some measure of ability to resist them through his unique interaction with humanity.

Good question, how would we? The depiction of how the runes functioned in this story line consisted of their active appearance when in use by Thor - he had to draw them in the snow to summon Odin's spirit or when he decides to tear Loki's head off and keep him among-st the living imprisoned in his skull. Would you like me to go through the issue to find each any every single time it was made apparent he was using the runes? I have it sitting on my counter in my room and I don't mind going through it if it matters, but those are two prominent displays of rune magic in this narrative.

How do we distinguished he was using rune magic against Mangog?

You mean despite the glowing rune on Thor's hand, the dialogue that he's muttering on about "and I know a spell to bottle this being and empty this bottle as well," and the mention where Loki starts to ask Thor "what spells does my strong-armed brother speak of? What are these spells that I do not know?" - bar Thor announcing to the reader that it was Rune Magic, its a safe bet the clues indicate that was the case. You're more than welcome to disagree if you'd like.

Well without the Odin Force Odin would still be on the level of Zeus at least given the Odin Power is that of his brothers (or at least it was). Given Thor post resurrection was running around with a fraction (arguably) of it and was still one shotting Bor so it doesn't take much of it to be an incredibly powerful being. Though that was as you mentioned non-canon so it doesn't necessarily matter in this discussion.

There was a barrier, a magical one at that, not sure if tha twas worth mentioning. The reams in Asgardia universe are seperated by barriers. That being said with Twilight Sword Surtur should reasonably able to pass through it which was my point exactly.

If he actually had the Twilight Sword, sure I could agree through it he would be able to penetrate any barriers inevitably, the fact he did not and was more or less arming his forces with Mjolnir mold replicas to invade Asgard till Thor blasted a path for him seems to indicate Thor to some extent provided a service Surtur was pleased with or at the very least expedited the process.

Not sure i follow lets look at the panel you are referring to
It looks pretty clearly that Loki was shocked Thor wasnt going to fight Surtur, the way he though, despite Surtur having killed Odin. Not sure how that undermines anything i have said, or what eactly does that undermine?

Wrong panel:

I was referring to this, where Loki was shocked at Thor's actions of clearing a path for Surtur, something that given his reaction was unlikely to occur under Surtur's own power at the time. If Surtur was capable of getting him and his armies there prior, this entire reaction from Loki would have been entirely pointless.

Perhas yes, but i am sure what you are drawing this from. He was specifically shown what he is supposed to do, which he initially refused and then carried out, as shown by Rune magic. The whole point was Ragnarok had to happen, and he let it happen, i dont recall anything apart from when he has hung up on the world tree that shows he was aware of everything.
What he however does have is a sight beyond sight, but thats something plentry of people have and in cosmic terms often called cosmic awareness, albiet on a variying level.

Not so much supposed, but what he needed to do and he was very aware of how all these events would play out - to whatever extent afterwards he very arguably had some level of omniscience like most higher tier cosmic beings or at least Heimdall. The fact he was walking around blind without eyes and interacting with characters and knew where to find them gives you some idea he was at the least aware of everything going on around him - you could argue it's related to those magic birds I believe he had some of the time on his shoulders, but the same could be said for Odin.

Regardless this entire process should have made him a god of prophecy as it did Odin and gave him some level of cosmic awareness to predict how events would play out - superior to that of TWSAS, who confidently said they knew Thor's efforts would end in futile.

Well firstly RKT did gain something sight beyond sight, but what we do not know is if it was even close to omniscient.
You are saying he has omniscience because he knew what to do, well he was shown what to do that wouldnt have been very hard now would it?
But i get the feeling your defination of what RKT got as a sight beyond sight, and mine are identical. I believe Thor was completely aware of Asgardia universe, but not beyond. That isnt much differen that say what Galactus already has, more or less of that level, as opposed to IG or LT. The complete omniscient.

That is some level of omniscience, he didn't have complete omniscience on the level of LT or possessors of the IG (albeit these characters are completely aware of the actions they would take and remain a slave to their consequences), but to an extent to predict how these events would unfold should he respond in X manner (namely why he was capable of forging the future he wanted - despite the efforts of TWSAS). Now if that was only exclusive to asgardians anything involving them I would be hesitant - even the hammers to some extent are sporting cosmic awareness or said gods can perceive events or characters entirely unrelated to them.

I am well aware of that, i dont know if you recall i did show you a scan of Odin knowing about King Thor going bad before Thor even inherented Odin Force.
My argument is based around the fact that without a panel confirmation, what Thor got is very similar to what Odin always had, but to a little higher degree. How much higher we dont know.

Potent enough to more or less see through the deceptions of Loki, all of them as well as having far more clarity on future events that Odin ever seemed to posses. Not that Odin was sporting anything poorly compared, but it was just more potent in Thor's case to show a clear superiority.

What you said on the secon part is exactly what i am trying to say, mroe so done because of a long argument with Alyssabird, and Pyrogram, who strated claiming it was complete omniscience, as complete and absolute it gets, while my argument was its more of less what Galacuts has, in the form of cosmic awareness.
Also not sure what the scan is supposed to show, Odin showed IRon man the universe, not sure i follow the logic there.

The Silver Surfer has Cosmic Awareness, which can allow him to gleam some measure of time / provide an element of precog - what these gods or his the devourer himself possess is omniscience to a degree. Absolute omniscience would make them slaves to destiny; what these characters have allows them to change it.

I was more pointing towards the fact that Odin not fighting TWSIS is bound by context.
Secondly, no where in the issue was it said Shadow Gods knew how the scenario would end, all they said was here:
To quote "You have seen our game, and you call us on it. You have bested us, and for that , we are in awe".
Which to me looks like he is saying well now you (unlikely ODin) understood our game, and are finally doing something Odin never did.

"We know all the outcomes past, present and future."

Moving back to why Thor did something and Odin never did : same old panel the humanity argument

Providing him more or less with a method of throwing off their omniscience. You could argue it was a plot device.

We dont even know how their powers work, we dont even know if they can attack, if they can in fact smite someone down.
All we have is that they were somehow responsible for Ragnarok, but what did they do is totally unclear. We know this rangnarok was going to happen because Loki brought back Surtur from his death, and it was Surtur and his army going to kill everyone and TWIS would eat their dinner. So what exactly have they done to suggest they can attack.
This is really, really a hollow feat, and even Thor harming them was all because he cut off their food source, he doesn't attack them directly, he doesn't blow their heads up,he cuts them off the very energy that gives them birth, by breaking a thread of fate, which apparently has always been there.

As far as I remember the text / dialogue of the characters, it seems they have been actively manipulating the Aesir through every Ragnarok. The only ones among them to find some method of resistance have only been characters such as Odin or Thor. In some method they exerted control over these extremely powerful beings without having to get off their chairs for these cycles and proceeded to feast on the energies and kick start the process all over again with almost identical results each and every time till Thor killed them.

You could argue through that tapestry tied their ability to control the Aesir, which is a good bet and Thor at this point was able to mold the future how he wanted - becoming their bane or at least superior in this entire process. It is all speculation, really though - but he did defeat them.

This i agree, that what i am pointing out. IT was humanity that for reason unknown ave RKT 2 things:
a. Ability to question is gods, and unlike other Asgardians to see perhaps there is another way, dying for glory isnt the only answer.
b. Gave him something that shielded his "true" intention from the shadow gods, could they have done something had they known what his true intention are? perhaps, perhaps not, no indication was shown on the comics, and its all guess work from there.

Not sure what you meant here initially, but yes as far as the text is concerned you could argue his 'true' intentions were hidden from these gods and it allowed him to defeat them.

Totally agree, but i would put Elder Gods as an example but Manhattan seem fine.
Surtur did not have a sword when RKT showed up, but when RKT blasts a way we see Surtur is holding a sword, reasonabe to believe its Twilight Sword, i mean when you have a kick ass sword with you, why would you take any other inferior copy in the final battle?
I also think RKT would win but i think its a lot closer than what people are making out to be. RKT s more powerful than Surtur no argument there, but Surtur has a sword that could cut RKT into pieces just fine, provided he connects.
Besides Surtur doesnt have a very good record of weilding the sword, going back to Everything Burns story arc he had the twilight sword on his hand before being kiled by Thor using a plot device.

Well given it was thrown through Ragnarok and made it to Hela's hands, its a good bet that it was. Believe me I don't doubt the power of the Twilight Blade, it's shadow was capable of manipulating events and Thor with a thought molded the realms the way he wanted them to be just holding it for a moment. The amount of power it provides the wielder is incredible.

If you go check out Rune King Thor vs Galactus thread created by Alyssa or perhaps RKT/ Galactus vs Arishem and Exitar you would being to see what those points were meant to say. Argument were being made to the effect that since RKT is omniscient, beating him is virtually impossible.

Omniscience isn't a place holder for power. Albeit given the current depiction of Galactus as being a clear superior to single celestials I still would put money on him in that fight, even if Rune King Thor is only supplying minor support.

We dont know how their power manifest to being with, what evidence can bring forth to suggest they can in fact use powers offensively?
They were influencing the cycle yes, but how and what exactly did they do. After all everything wad done by Loki, it was his act of being surtur back that was the beginng of Ragnarok. And the ragnarok ended with Surtur fighting and killing them all, so how exactly does that show they wer capable of forming a physical attack.
Power of Runes , i dont think, was the plot device. He went further than what Odin did, he sacrificed more, he became more powerful, to what degree we dont know. Nor do we actually see him do something beyond what ODin has been shown capable of doing. If anything Odin not walking up and breaking the thread of fate while showing Shadow gods the middle finger was the plot.
If anything the plot device in RKT power was his humanity, after all that is what the issue stresses again and again. And readers can go, oh yes humanity rocks.

All fine points, but I place serious doubts in the concept there beings are completely helpless to forces they've been actively controlling a thousand times over. But yeah, humanity was a plot power in itself.

#43 Posted by MzombieX (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@highaccuser said:

Really? It did stomp ymir, who is equal to surtur.

I am unsure to what instance you are referring to, and who had the sword. But Twilight Wword has been a very powerful weapon, has always have, but it doesnt normally amp your stats. Its like giving Punisher a giant short gun, in a fight against Spiderman. Sure the shotgun would kill Spiderman outright, but that doesnt prevent Spiderman from having a good change of beating Punisher himself, perhaps by being able to take the short gun away from him.

The same should be true for Twilight Sword.

@MzombieX said:

He doesn't have to use the word omniscience. It's not just implied, but the writer is slapping us in the face with it, and I would have been extremely disappointed if he had done so. If the writer has to hold the readers hand & go to that degree to come right out and say "And by the way. NOW THOR IS OMNISCIENT!" Then as an artist he hasn't done his job. Thank you Michael Oeming, for not assuming the reader is stupid.

I do not deny the fact that Thor did get some greater vision, what was described as "sight beyond sight" , what i did not agree and still do not agree is Thro was omniscient. Also the use of word is important because Marvel has a whole hierarchy of foresight, a whole hierarchy of sight beyond sight.

Lets look at some example:

1. We have seen Madam Web demonstrate, at time, ability to see the future, that would be a classic definition of sight beyond sight.

2. Then we have Silver Surfer cosmic awareness that makes him aware of his immediate surrounding.

3. Then we have Galactus and his cosmic awareness, similar to Surfer but in a higher order.

4. Then we have Eon's awareness, where he can see the entire workings of universe, but can only see past and future of thing related to himself.

So we have from precog to varying level of cosmic awareness surrounding Marvel, so ther has to be an indication of what the sight beyond sight meant in order for it to be omniscient.

What Ragnarok was the end of? It was most likely the end of the ancient Gods within the 9 realms. From their perspective of creation & destruction. The way the Pantheons are set up, each has their creationist legends and claim one thing or another that contradicts the other Pantheons. It's a sloppy mess. I'm fully aware that there are Abstracts beyond the Pantheons. In no way does that necessarily mean Thor wasn't able to peer into the workings of the Marvel Universe. To have knowledge of things greater than himself or the scope of a bigger picture out there. Thor was already familiar with Elder Gods beyond himself or Abstract Entities he's encountered prior to these events. He wasn't exactly sheltered & living in a bubble without knowledge of anything outside of Asgard. Is it that unlikely he was able to perceive these things in a different light, considering the power he had obtained? Odin was often aware of beings or sensing disturbances in the multiverse beyond Asgard. RKT went beyond him. Are you under the impression I'm saying RKT was "Omnipotent" & all powerful? That isn't the same thing as Omniscience. While we cannot prove without a doubt Thor had Omniscience beyond the scope of Asgard. I don't see why it would be dismissed altogether either.

Ragnarok most often than not is just the death of Asgardians and is spread but limited to Norse pantheon.

The 9 realm however include things that has nothing to do with Norse pantheon, i.e. earth which actually is in a seperate universe (dimension) altogether from Asgardia pocket universe.

From Norse perspective Odin is the God who alongside 2 brothers created the entire universe, its a localized concept, far more localized than you would believe.

Having death with a know abstract, and Thor has known even "beyond" abstracts during Avengers Infinity, doesnt change the context in which the story is spoken. The Odin force refers to Ragnarok as the end of ALL things, yet we know the end at most is going to be extended to Norse pantheon and no more. So when he does gain the knowledge of ALL Things, the same logic should apply, unless there is something for us to make us believe otherwise.

None of that section had anything to do with telling you it says the word Omniscience. What was said there, is correcting your false interpretation and statement about what Thor was expressing in that moment. When he broke the bonds before entering the underworld, what was taking place, & why. He does not say "I have seen enough." Which somehow translates in your mind, to him only being able to perceive this wisdom he had gained, while on the tree, and now that it's done he has lost it and cannot anymore. He says "NO! I Cannot!!! ... I Refuse!" Through some mistake, you made that other phrase up and built some other interpretation around it that doesn't fit.

I think you misunderstood my response, i agreed with you one 1 part, which i agree my interpretation was incorrect and i conceded, and that part would be the underline part.

What i showed disagreed was in the fact that just because he did what Odin asked him to do, fullfilled them even grander than what Odin perhaps thought, doesnt show omniscience beyond a varying degree of cosmic awareness, something inherent by Heralds, Celestial, and virtually every abstract level being. Omniscience, in its genuine sense is shown by Eternity, when he is not sleeping, within his universe.

So he had to. And? ... So he sacrificed and did what he had to do. That's what a hero does. Not sure what your point is? Nobody said he was doing it for personal glory. The result being that he surpassed Odin. Had "Those Who Sit Above In Shadow" pissing themselves in awe of his wisdom. Bargaining for their existence by offering him a place beside them on the throne, to sit among the Gods of Gods.

Ok here we disagree a bit, what i am saying he Thor did not sacrifice 2 eyes instead of 1 because he wanted to gain extra knowledge but rather because anything less than that would not have been acceptable. Same goes with dying, therefore you cant normally assume a linear relationship like 2 eyes instead of one so his power should be double. What however it shows is since Thor sacrificed more he gains more knoweledge than Odin, to what degree is intentionally left vague.

TWSAS instance is different, or perhaps we interpret it different, it was Thor humanity that caused the difference, and unlike everyone else he started thing along a different line, perhaps dying in a glorious battle, which has always been Asgardian's pride, isnt the only solution. So unlike Odin, he actually went past that a decided to challange the so called Gods themselves. Sure they would offer him a position, wouldnt you, if you know a person is gunning for you?

The power level of Shadow Gods were left vague, apart from everyone believing they were gods and doing nothing against them, while Thor did something different.

Its not an argument of increased power and knoweldge, but rather a different perception, thanks to humanity, which is what the issue from that point on makes it pretty clear.

Sorry for the massive length Killemall. I feel a little bad for you trying to sort through the responses Lol. Hope you can match them up, because I'm exhausted and too lazy to place your individual quotes there. :p Anyway this is my view on it. Agree to disagree, or respond if you like. Beyond my disagreement with you on this point. I thought you did a nice job with the rest of your original post and agree with most of the other points you made. So ... well said

LOL i dont know about you man but i love this kind of things. This is exactly what comicvine is for, clashing of 2 ideas, without disrespect to each other. While we can agree to disagree whats the fun in that :p

The way i see it, i would love for you to continue laying down your ideas, and i would lay down mine. Sure i have been lazy in this reply, you bring more points i will try and bring up scans and pull stuffs for his bios to agree or disagree with it, by the end of thsi hopefully we come to an agreement. If all else fails we can diagree, but i would rather proved wrong than say i disagree, and you did correct me on one thing, and i am grateful, lets see you correct me on others :)

Dont know about u but to me this has been a treat, after reading you argument, thus far i have skimmed through Thor Dissemble twice, bios are left but will do that once more point come up. This helps me learn and understand the character better. Thor is lucky he can hang himself to gain extra knoweledge, me mortals have to debate long and hard to gain such foresight :)

Madame Web having psychic energy to peer into the future, with her bibbity bobbity boo, is just scratching the surface. Knowledge of the future was just a footnote in the knowledge obtained while Thor had power over the Runes. Silver Surfer's awareness of immediate surroundings? If I have enough coffee & cigarettes in me, I could have awareness of my immediate surroundings on a superhuman level.

You had mentioned before in our other post, that Asgard was the size of a small island and maybe Thor was only viewed as powerful within that context. Asgard is a vast continent, approximately twice the width of Earth, if you consider Vanaheim, Alfheim, & Nidavellir that share its borders. Yet shaped more like a shelf rather than globe. Just the Pillars of Utgard, in the Sea of Fear, alone represent half a dozen small islands. There are other oceans such as the Sea of Marmora, desert valleys and tundra like the Plain of Ida, the Norn wilderness, the forest of Sigurd. The Asgard Mountains span from the Realm of Vanaheim to the Realm of Alfheim. The Ice Shelf of Nastrond covers the entire North Eastern continent from the peaks of Valhalla and south to Thryheim, and so on ... The Asgard dropped into middle America, was just Odin's throne room and city capital.

As I said before, I agree with you that it can't be proven Thor was omniscient across the multiverse. I'm not claiming he became Eternity, surpassed LT, or anything on the level of TOAA or held supreme omnipotence (infinite power). Yet I believe, without a doubt, that Thor had obtained Omniscience (infinite knowledge) that spanned the 9 realms & not just Asgard. I already said I agree with you that Ragnarok and its destruction of "All Things" is a localized concept, since the other Pantheons have their own claim on their legends. I made the same case a couple weeks back, on a thread discussing where Marvel's Judeo-Christian Gods or Hell Lords place in relation to Asgardian and Greek Pantheons, etc.

It's true that humanity was spared of the destruction from Ragnarok. Why Earth was spared, is never stated. Perhaps because it only involves the cycle of death & rebirth, among the immortal souls of Gods & Demons ... & mortals are beneath it. Although (Earth is Midgard) & therefore linked to the 9 Realms at its core. But you're mistaken if you believe the 9 realms were not involved and have nothing to do with the Norse Pantheon. They have absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the Norse Pantheon. Ragnarok culminates in the (War of the Gods) as they destroy each other. Are you trying to tell me Surtur was not involved in this and Muspelheim remained untouched by Ragnarok? The Giants of Jotun had no role to play in these events? Hela's Underworld?

Thor carved a path for Surtur that freely opened the gates of Valhalla & Vanaheim, so he could storm "Heaven" itself. Thor delivered the Valkyr & the Honored Dead to Surtur, along with the Realm of the Old Gods, such as his mother Frigga. (or stepmother as Gaea is his true mother)

Maybe you misunderstand the expanse of the 9 Realms, of which Asgard represents 1 part.

The World Tree & THE NINE REALMS: Asgard (Home of the Gods) - Vanaheim (Home of the Vanir) - Alfheim (Home of the Light Elves) - Nidavellir (Home of the Dwarves) - Midgard (Home of Humanity) - Jotunheim (Home of the Jotun/Frost Giants) - Svartalfheim (Home of the Dark Elves) - Hel/Niffleheim (Land of the Dead) - Muspelheim (Home of the Demon/Fire Giants)

The Realms are connected to the primeval World Tree - Yggdrasil. It anchors itself at the Axis of all things within the 9 Realms. Its branches bind the fabric & fates of all things within the 9 realms, and binds the cosmos as it grows. Thor traveled to Jotunheim to drink from the Well of Mimir. This is where he hung himself from Yggdrasil and drank from her roots. Asgardians named this Well after one of the Old Gods of the Aesir/Vanir war, who was revered for his great wisdom. The waters that flow forth, are the life essence of The World Tree. After the sacrifice of his eyes, Thor drinks from Yggdrasil to gain wisdom & clarity of spirit. Through his trial of pain & meditation & sacrifice, destruction & rebirth, he deciphers the Magic Runes and gains Omniscience (Infinite Knowledge) from the World Tree.

Definition of Omniscience - "Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving ALL THINGS"

Power from Runes - (The magic from the runes & wisdom from the well give Thor the power to perceive ALL THINGS, animal & mineral, the science of man, the past - control over the present - the future, past the knowing of gods, the relation of man-god-child-father-creator-destroyer, through the veil of time, beyond quantum structure, beyond cosmic architecture, into nothingness, destruction & resurrection. The future of ALL THINGS, of every man & every beast, every leaf on every tree, every deed seen & unseen, every battle lost & won.)

If our misunderstanding is that, you think I believe Thor had Omniscience in totality across Marvel (616) and all it's alternate realities, then no I'm not claiming that. I don't think there's enough evidence to support that and can't say one way or the other just how far reaching it could apply.

But I do believe there is enough evidence to support he obtained a level of Omniscience that spans the 9 Realms. Can we agree on that? If not, that's fine ...

All the other stuff about the Eyes, Thor's humanity, Those Who Sit Above, etc. I think is more miscommunication than anything else at this point and I'm not even really sure if we disagree with anything there. Much respect man.

#44 Posted by Thor's hammmer (7184 posts) - - Show Bio

RKT walks over.

#45 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

It also says that he is more powerful that "most" godheads, and given Godhead is a collection of skyfather beings of varying power level, its reasonable to assume his power level falls somewhere in the same vicinity

I'm going to assume he is more powerful than all the godheads save odin. One thing confuses me though. I read sacred invasion, and I really didn't see why atum didn't just destroy all the skrull fleets. Someone odin fears should be capable of that. 


Chthon's feats make this difficult to believe.

Should be the other way around shouldnt it. What exactly has Chthon done to show him a equal to Odin when most things he has done suggest he is likely below.

Nothing actually, but read what his page on this site says about his powers. You'll see where this is coming from. 

They are explained as universal threat but so goes for every herald of Galactus.

Also before anyone says HOM Wanda, Chthon has very little to do with it, as she was tapping into a limitless source of power, which according to Doom dwarfs the power of PR Beyonder, and the power was Life Entity (Avengers: Children Crusade)

The heralds are universal by the nova corps standards. Eternities standards are different. I'm not trying to say Chthon is stronger than galactus, but he does seem really powerful. I thought HOM wanda was only confirmed as dwarfing POST retcon beyonder. 
And it was ARES with TS that stomped Ymir. This was during dark reign. That seems to put it above ragnorak sword.
#46 Posted by highaccuser (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall  
Everything you've said makes surtur seem stupdly inconsistent. He is close to Odin, but even with help from Ymir he loses? (On his page, it seems that surtur and ymir have fought odin, but never directly lost) You also said that odin force thor stomped him, which dosn't fir at all. Now he is inexplicably superior to Odin? Is there a reason for this inconsistency?  
#47 Posted by MzombieX (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: how exactly would we know what abilities Odin used was based on Rune Magic and what wasnt. Which particular ability from Thor, apart from him calling out Odin's spirit, which feat eactly does show RKT using Rune Magic?

@isaac_clarke: Good question, how would we? The depiction of how the runes functioned in this story line consisted of their active appearance when in use by Thor - he had to draw them in the snow to summon Odin's spirit or when he decides to tear Loki's head off and keep him among-st the living imprisoned in his skull. How do we distinguished he was using rune magic against Mangog? You mean despite the glowing rune on Thor's hand, the dialogue that he's muttering on about "and I know a spell to bottle this being and empty this bottle as well," and the mention where Loki starts to ask Thor "what spells does my strong-armed brother speak of? What are these spells that I do not know?" - bar Thor announcing to the reader that it was Rune Magic, its a safe bet the clues indicate that was the case.

Agreed and well said isaac

#48 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor wins , with ease .

#49 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@Killemall Everything you've said makes surtur seem stupdly inconsistent. He is close to Odin, but even with help from Ymir he loses? (On his page, it seems that surtur and ymir have fought odin, but never directly lost) You also said that odin force thor stomped him, which dosn't fir at all. Now he is inexplicably superior to Odin? Is there a reason for this inconsistency?

Twilight Sword? With it he is Odin's superior, without it he is a rival in power.

#50 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@MzombieX said:

You had mentioned before in our other post, that Asgard was the size of a small island and maybe Thor was only viewed as powerful within that context. Asgard is a vast continent, approximately twice the width of Earth, if you consider Vanaheim, Alfheim, & Nidavellir that share its borders. Yet shaped more like a shelf rather than globe. Just the Pillars of Utgard, in the Sea of Fear, alone represent half a dozen small islands. There are other oceans such as the Sea of Marmora, desert valleys and tundra like the Plain of Ida, the Norn wilderness, the forest of Sigurd. The Asgard Mountains span from the Realm of Vanaheim to the Realm of Alfheim. The Ice Shelf of Nastrond covers the entire North Eastern continent from the peaks of Valhalla and south to Thryheim, and so on ... The Asgard dropped into middle America, was just Odin's throne room and city capital.

I disagree with few stuffs here, most importantly. While its the size of a continent as opposed to an island (apologies i got that wrong the first time around) that size of the contient includes Vanaheim, Alfheim and Nidavellir.

Firstly from Marvel Handbook 1984-1985

Asgard is the size of a continent

"its surface area being about the as continental united states"

The handbook also shows as Asgard in full Glory

We have even give an approximate scale of measurement.

Should you like i can substantiate the same thing with 2 other bios that i have, which frankly talk similar stuffs.

If our misunderstanding is that, you think I believe Thor had Omniscience in totality across Marvel (616) and all it's alternate realities, then no I'm not claiming that. I don't think there's enough evidence to support that and can't say one way or the other just how far reaching it could apply.

But I do believe there is enough evidence to support he obtained a level of Omniscience that spans the 9 Realms. Can we agree on that? If not, that's fine ...

Definitely agree.