@darkraiden: according to Official Marvel Index asgardians are 3x denser then humans. Where does it say Thor is denser then steel?
Rune King Thor vs Avenger and Justice League
@darkraiden: according to Official Marvel Index asgardians are 3x denser then humans. Where does it say Thor is denser then steel?
His durability. THe fact that planet shattering punches don't phase him.
Wally with the entire speedforce which means he could clone himself infinitely? And all of those clones are basically omnipresent? Having himselves go through timelines to kill Thor? Have the infinite amount of speed given to the JLA so they all technically have an infinite amount of speed? While they all can speed steal from Thor? While they can grow their muscles at will making them stronger? While they are all should be punching thousands of times faster than light? Who could all heal instantly? While MMH and Aquaman can turn Thors teammates against him and then giving that team billions of years of prep becuase they got speed from the Flashes?
Lol. This doesn't seem all that fair to me.
@darkraiden: according to Official Marvel Index asgardians are 3x denser then humans. Where does it say Thor is denser then steel?
His durability. THe fact that planet shattering punches don't phase him.
That is what I thought you were thinking. durability is not tied to density. Spiderman, Cap America etc is more durable then humans but has the same density. As you said, Science and comic logic don't always agree.
Wally with the entire speedforce which means he could clone himself infinitely? And all of those clones are basically omnipresent? Having himselves go through timelines to kill Thor? Have the infinite amount of speed given to the JLA so they all technically have an infinite amount of speed? While they all can speed steal from Thor? While they can grow their muscles at will making them stronger? While they are all should be punching thousands of times faster than light? Who could all heal instantly? While MMH and Aquaman can turn Thors teammates against him and then giving that team billions of years of prep becuase they got speed from the Flashes?
Lol. This doesn't seem all that fair to me.
Thanks for saying this much better then I did.
The planet busting attacks would only be current Flash. If you think about it, they should be able to move at any speed so they would be able to perform galaxy busting attacks. And this is an infinte army of Flashes, World Breaker Hulk(Who is already a planet buster), Superman who is a planet buster, etc....
I really don't see Thor winning this. They literally have prep within the on going battle.
@pooty: I think speed steal would be viable...I have to wonder if, with shields Wally could get close enough for a speed steal?
Rune King Thor wins with one wave of his hand lol.
This is the problem. I know Thor can have shields and RKT can win with one wave of his hand. But Wally is fast enough to stop either from happening. Wally, IMO, can attack faster then RKT can activate his shields or wave his hand or think. I'm sure you've seen these scans but i'll post them for others.
And how will Wally hurt the Skyfather+ level being? Does he hit harder than exploding Galaxies now? Oh only a white dwarf? Yeah he loses.
Agreed. Striking with the force of a white dwarf star is more hyperbole than anything else. Don't get me wrong, Wonder Woman has stated the IMP hits harder than Superman...we've all seen Zum (white martian) knocked cross continent. Hardly nothing that has not already been seen by the heavy weights in both the Marvel and DC universe. I honestly don't see any real options open to any of RKT's opponents if RKT is aware (which he will be) his enemies are coming:
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The scans to the left are from when Thor has possession of the Odin force. He new Desak was coming before he could visually confirm it. The Odin force granted Thor a measure of foreknowledge that his enemy was coming before he got there. The scan below shows that he hadn't even had mastery of the Odin force yet.
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As Odin force Thor, and unskilled at that, Thor knew Desak was coming before he even arrived. As RKT, Thor surpassed even Odin in knowledge and power. He was powerful enough to destroy "Those Who Sit Above in Shadow" and was wise enough to prevent the ongoing cycle of Ragnarok from occurring again.
RKT wins this fight.
@captnmcdeadpool: knowing something and being able to stop it are two different things. Thor could sense Desak was coming. Did he stop him from coming? Was it ever stated that he could stop him from coming? according to those scans RKT does not automatically know all things. He has to concentrate. RKT has not shown that he can react or think at nano second speeds. all the power in the world won't help if you don't have a chance to react. Speed steal, slowing down the brain, IMP's are still viable options for this team.
fighting thor or odinforce thor is one thing, but RKT is entirely another story. he's an abstract being and doesn't fight physically. anyone knows what he did to mangog, also knows this thread is a huge spite. the team is nothing compared to RKT.
and one last thing;
@captnmcdeadpool: knowing something and being able to stop it are two different things. Thor could sense Desak was coming. Did he stop him from coming? Was it ever stated that he could stop him from coming?
No, the scan does not show him then stopping Desak. But it shows he was aware before he arrived. And you have to admit...it was a combat situation. And again, the Desak scans are from Thor from the Reigning arc, who was not as skilled as Odin at using the Odin force, as the scans above clearly show. Additionally, Odin is listed among the top tiers of those whose awareness places them on a "cosmic" level:
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But this isn't Odin force Thor. It's RKT, who was granted a greater measure of awareness than his father.
according to the previous scans RKT does not automatically know all things. He has to concentrate
I think your assessment that RKT needs to concentrate to have fore awareness is in error:
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The scan above indicates that he became cosmically aware on a large scale and there is nothing he needs to do to "turn them on"...as the narrative indicates, "Now, Thor can see...", blah, blah. With the Odin force, Thor did not have to concentrate to know Desak was coming. The Odin force simply warned him. Additionally, the narrative indicates he can see beyond "quantum structure; beyond cosmic architecture....". This would mean he is cosmically aware to the point of being sensitive to the movement and flow of energy, it's type, etc....(hence the term quantum structure). This tells me he would also the know the source of Wally's power and like the narrative above indicated with regard to Thor knowing what to do regarding those who sit above in shadow, he would certainly know how to handle Wally.
RKT has not shown that he can react or think at nano second speeds. all the power in the world won't help if you don't have a chance to react.
I agree. But he won't have to react in infinitesimally small fractions of time if he knows before the Avengers and the JLA even show up. He will already know.
Speed steal, slowing down the brain, IMP's are still viable options for this team.
The previous scan above, where Surfer considered Odin and Strange on a level of cosmic awareness as him? Why wouldn't RKT know what the source of Wally's power? The whole premise of that comic was that RKT was cosmically aware enough to realize how TWSAIS were manipulating the cosmic balance. The Surfer knew what Gladiator's weakness was (?). Why wouldn't RKT who was more cosmically aware than Odin?
Now, you would be right that there are no specific scans for said feats (with regard to RKT), but the evidence strongly suggests that he can. A parallel example would be: everyone on the Vine says Wally can throw a million IMP's in a second. He has even stated he can in JLA #3.
But has he ever shown it? Nope. Yet, it is widely accepted on the Vine that he can. Has Rune King Thor shown he can do these things? No. But the evidence above, strongly indicates that he can.
In terms of speed steal, Wally would have to get close enough for to him to do it. Again, forewarned is forearmed. With a force field of mystical origin, he could keep Wally at a nice distance and speed steal would be out of the picture. Additionally, Odin himself could stop time as could Odin force Thor. Logically, this would be well withing RKT's ability to do as well:
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RKT could also do the same and at Wally's fastest, he would appear to be moving at normal speeds (as Wally has shown he can move through time on numerous occasions under his own power)...which RKT could react to easily. And frankly, an IMP will do nothing against RKT who no sold repeated shots from Mangog:
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Now, the scans above indicate RKT is using shields to protect himself from Mangog. However, as Odin force Thor, he no sold a nuclear weapon at point blank range (which really is low balling when we consider classic Thor has fought Atum at the heart of the sun). As classic Thor, he has no sold nuclear weapons on a few occasions. Also, as Odin force Thor he has also briefly contained a nuclear explosion with a magical shield. As Wally has shown he can't get through shields of magical origins, I'd say RKT has this aspect in the bag:
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As the scans above indicate, Odin force Thor not only could endure a nuke, he could contain it and displace the blast into another dimension. I'm sure I don't need to show scans of Wally's inability to get through bonds of a magical origin. In my opinion, RKT will know well in advance before this assembled group even arrives (so a random encounter means RKT will already know what's coming). So, he can shut down time altogether. This means the two fastest guys there, the Surfer and Wally will be, to Rune King Thor, moving at normal speeds. At which point, he can BFR or destroy with energy strikes among other things.
@captnmcdeadpool: This is a random encounter. Neither team knows who they are facing. Hence the term random encounter. The only person who knows this fight is going to happen is The OP. RKT has cosmic awareness for HIS OWN universe. He does not know the doings of every single being in existence. That would make him TOAA/Presence. He has no way of knowing that this team is being assembled. The way I understand random encounters is: teams are assembled WITHOUT any prior knowledge. At the moment they are teleported in front of each other, they start fighting. If RKT knows who he is fighting then that is considered prep. But that is just the way I think. I'll ask @citizenbane@sc@god_spawn to clarify
@pooty: I see. I was not aware battle forum rules stated that. So that would mean in any random encounter on these battle forums, those with any powers that would allow them foreknowledge that an opponent is coming, or any of the things said foreknowledge would allow them to know about an opponent before a fight begins, would be effectively be eliminated....even though that is part of their power set?
So that means that in a random encounter with Spider-man, his spider sense is not allowed?
If that is the case, then, yes....there are numerous players for both teams that are too fast for Thor to react to.
And no need to bring in a mod to explain, your explanation was clear.
@darkraiden: according to Official Marvel Index asgardians are 3x denser then humans. Where does it say Thor is denser then steel?
wolverines claws only left scratches and he can carve uru with only his finger.
@captnmcdeadpool: That is just my interpretation. Not to be taken as fact. That is why I called in the mods. You may be correct. As far as Spidey is concerned, as soon as the fight starts his spidey sense would work perfect.
Nevertheless it seems we agree. If RKT does know they are going to attack then he wins. If he does not know then the team wins. I'm cool with that.
@pooty: Yup. Speed kills in any non PIS comic battle!
@mattersuit: Seems to me like the definition of Hulk/Honey Badger... :P
@cgoodness: Yes. That proves Thor is very durable. Thor is 6'6 and weighs 660lbs.If Thor was denser then steel he would weigh at least a ton.
Wally solo's.
Here's the problem guys; people don't really understand the speed-force.
Here's what the speed-force is defined as:
"When [Allen runs, he generates] the kinetic wall between the present and the time barrier. It's an electrical energy that exists in every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality. It contains the knowledge of every place and time. The Speed Force is the all-encompassing Flash Fact." - Max Mercury
Now, before I delve into that let's go over a couple of speed-force abilities:
IMP, Constructs, Speed-steal/lend, self-molecular control, clones, time/dimensional travel; and death.
Now what do I mean by death? Well when speedsters die they don't vanish, they become one with the speed-force; it's like an after-life for them, and they have the ability to leave that after-life if they have an anchor.
So what does this mean? Well being "fully tapped into the speed-force" means he has complete mastery and control over it. So that means he's omniscient (as he now possesses the speed-force's knowledge of every place and time in all dimensions/universes), he's omnipresent (can merge with the speed-force which is everywhere in all dimensions/universes), he can't die (he controls his own after-life), and he has complete control over all things related to speed and kinetic energy. He can create infinite clones, and can travel at infinite speed while using it to hit people or phase through things to kill them; and even magic shields can't stop him as RKT's brain functions still use some sort of speed, which means the speed-force is already inside them and Wally could just exist the speed-force inside of RKT's head.
The Speed-Force is simply not meant to be used to full capacity like that; it's like giving The Doctor all of his super items and powers like the Time-Space Vortex or sun-dipping SA Superman in a Blue Star for a trillion years; it shouldn't be done.
Wally solo's.
Here's the problem guys; people don't really understand the speed-force.
Here's what the speed-force is defined as:
"When [Allen runs, he generates] the kinetic wall between the present and the time barrier. It's an electrical energy that exists in every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality. It contains the knowledge of every place and time. The Speed Force is the all-encompassing Flash Fact." - Max Mercury
Now, before I delve into that let's go over a couple of speed-force abilities:
IMP, Constructs, Speed-steal/lend, self-molecular control, clones, time/dimensional travel; and death.
Now what do I mean by death? Well when speedsters die they don't vanish, they become one with the speed-force; it's like an after-life for them, and they have the ability to leave that after-life if they have an anchor.
So what does this mean? Well being "fully tapped into the speed-force" means he has complete mastery and control over it. So that means he's omniscient (as he now possesses the speed-force's knowledge of every place and time in all dimensions/universes), he's omnipresent (can merge with the speed-force which is everywhere in all dimensions/universes), he can't die (he controls his own after-life), and he has complete control over all things related to speed and kinetic energy. He can create infinite clones, and can travel at infinite speed while using it to hit people or phase through things to kill them; and even magic shields can't stop him as RKT's brain functions still use some sort of speed, which means the speed-force is already inside them and Wally could just exist the speed-force inside of RKT's head.
The Speed-Force is simply not meant to be used to full capacity like that; it's like giving The Doctor all of his super items and powers like the Time-Space Vortex or sun-dipping SA Superman in a Blue Star for a trillion years; it shouldn't be done.
Unfortunately, your definition of speed force is unsupported by actual feats. No individual with the speed force has come close to omniscience or omnipresence. By your logic, someone with the speed force is stronger than even the Spectre. In fact, Spectre could probably disaible the speed force with a wave of his hand, or otherwise separate Wally from the speed force itself. Also, someone like Spectre is faster than silver age Superman, and I'm sure Spectre could move faster than Wally if he wanted to.
You can't just use definitions to support your argument. Yes, definitions do matter, but the speed force has demonstrated no feats that even come close to what you're describing.
@jay_z94: abstract? no, he is twice as powerful as Odin, but still below galactus
@jay_z94: abstract? no, he is twice as powerful as Odin, but still below galactus
fair enough. Who could beat galactus that is under abstract level? (apart from adult franklin richards)
@jay_z94: dunno. normal galactus can be beaten by elite celestials, the Phoenix force, shuma gorath, dormammu might too.
off the top of my head
@pooty: because the after effect of a bullet is someone having a bullet in their flesh. A world destroying blast destroys worlds. What's more effective?
@maninthemountain: If I have a gun that can blow your head off in 1/2 second. but you can destroy a planet in 3 seconds. My gun is far more effective. Odin is too slow to use his vast powers
@maninthemountain: @beaconofstrength: @pooty:
Wally West with FULL access to the Speed Force, could be considered the 10th most powerful being in comics.
So this is basically KC Wally? If they plan correctly they could defeat thor since wally is omnipresent. He speed steals from everything in existence, then gives them to his team mates, they hit thor with 10 googolplex (its a real number) punches that shatter planets (because the striking power has increased dramatically due to the speed of the punches) within zeptoseconds. This goes on for 2 seconds and Thor could go down, depending on how strong his shields are. Normal flash can supposedly squeeze 1000 years out of a second (Saw in a flash respect thread) so imagine an enhance team with Wally's speed+ Wally hammering at thor for that long of a time. But like I said earlier, it all depends on how durable those shields are. Anyone have any scans for the shields and rkt speed.
Rune King Thor at the peak of his power
Avengers: Cosmic Spiderman, Ultimate Wolverine, Ultimate Cap America, Iron Man (Thorbuster), World Breaker Hulk, and Silver Surfer.
Justice League: Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wally West (Fully tapped into the speed force) Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman.
Random Encounter
Planet made of Vibranium, 70% of it is water.
10X bigger than Earth.
Who wins?
Everybody that actually matters.
@zhurong: @trueking95: Someone said wally cant get past magical shields
Thor would behead almost all of them with ease
@zhurong: @trueking95: Someone said wally cant get past magical shields
Thor would behead almost all of them with ease
1) Odin wouldn't have time to get up shields. This is Wally with FULL ACCESS to speed force. Odin will be a statue to Flash. See post 56 to see how fast Flash is with only a portion of the speed force.
2) Wally doesn't have to physically touch him to beat him. He can speed steal or disrupt his mental synapses without touching him
Wally and MM could be a problem together
@xlr87t3: Yeah, Flash won't be doing anything to RKT.
@beaconofstrength: Yeah, RKT won't be doing anything to Flash.
@pooty: odin wtf are you talking about
@xlr87t3 said:
@beaconofstrength: Yeah, RKT won't be doing anything to Flash.
@xlr87t3: Flash is powerful, but you're just low balling Thor at this point. Rune King Thor would demolish him 1 on 1.
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