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#1 Edited by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

Nickzambuto and Esquire vs. Joewell and YoungJustice

Round 1: Team !

Tournament Rules:

§ All parties involved in a debate must state they are ready for voting before votes are taken into consideration. Meaning anyone who votes prior to this point will be discounted.

§ Personal attack are prohibited. At any point, if you insult your fellow debater(s), and they feel personally insulted, I will ask you apologize for the jest. I'm not talking about joking around, or meaningless jabs at one another, I'm talking about over the line insulting and ridicule. If someone is offended, either apologize, or under the even someone really crosses a line, they will be flagged and kicked out of the tournament.

§ Feats must be backed up with scans, or at the very least sourced. For example, if you know something happened and what issue it's from, but don't have the scan, just source the issue. If you can find the scan, great. However, if you are just pulling information off a wiki, and can't find what issue it's actually from, then as far as I'm concerned it is irrelevant. Even sourcing the Story Arc would be fine.

§ Follow the character rules, battle rules, and the scenarios given.

§ As always, respect each other.

NickZambuto

Marksman - Revolver Ocelot: Duel Revolvers, Fortune Device, com-link

Martial Artist - Roronoa Zoro: Three swords, com-link

Wildcard - Solid Snake: SOCOM, Patriot, Stun Knife, Octocamo, Solid Eye, PSG1 Sniper Rifle, Rail Gun, C4, Mk. II, CODEC

Powerman - Cole McGrath: Amp, com-link

Esquire

Marksman: Deadshot

.50 Cal Sniper Rifle w/ Thermal Scope, H&K 416 Rifle, Twin Desert Eagles, Twin Wrist Pistols, Standard Bulletproof Armor, comm link

Martial Artist: Cassandra Cain

Batsuit, Utility Belt w/ (6) Smoke Bombs, Rope w/ Grappling Hook, Handcuffs, comm link

Wildcard: Wesley Gibson

.50 Cal Sniper Rifle w/ Thermal Scope, H&K 416 Rifle, Twin FN Five-seveNs, (10) Throwing Knives, (3) Frag Grenades, comm link

Powerman: Domino

H&K 416 Rifle w/ Thermal Scope, Twin FN Five-seveNs, (5) Frag Grenades, C4, Night Vision Goggles, comm link

VS

joewell

Marksman - Mai (Daggers, Poison)

Martial Artist - Ty Lee (Unarmed)

Wildcard - Me Mow (Knife, Poison Needle)

Powerman - Red X (Standard Gear)

YoungJustice

Marksman - Artemis (Quiver of Arrows, 1 of every special arrow, 30 regular arrows)

Martial Artist - Nick Fury (616) (Unarmed)

Wildcard - Damian Wayne (2 batons, metal staff, utility belt)

Powerman - X2 Nightcrawler (Unarmed)

Map:

Scenario:

  • No Knowledge Yep, that's right, absolutely no knowledge on your opponents teams. Full knowledge on you and your teammates teams of course.
  • 1 Hour Prep Time Cannot be used for acquiring outside gear. This is purely for positioning and discussion of strategies!
  • Morals On You heard me!
  • In Character Shouldn't have to state this, but I will.
  • Nickzambuto and Esquire start in the teal zone, YoungJustice and joewell start in the red zone
  • You get 3 clips for each gun! Yep, you heard me. I also reduced the amount of regular arrows sent by 20, and limited Esquire on bombs and throwing knives. Remember, you're actually carrying these.

Perks!

  • Rules: Each member of each team may choose a perk. However, no team may have more than one of a certain perk! Some perks have limitations, please follow them.

Here they are!

  • What's yours is mine, and what's mine is yours! Trade a single piece of equipment from one of your team members, with someone of the opposite team! You cannot use this to give your martial artist a ranged weapon, so nice try!
  • SUICIDE SQUAD!!! ATTACK!!! Sacrifice a single member of your team to kill off a single member of the opposite team who holds the same position (for example, a marksman for a marksman, a martial artist for a martial artist, powerman for a powerman, etc.).
  • It's all up to you buddy! Sacrifice your teams perk, in return, your teammates team will receive an extra perk!
  • I spy with my little eye! Your team gains full knowledge on your opponents team!
  • Sewer Urchin!? Where do you get all this stuff!? Your team may use the following pieces of equipment during their prep time: 5 frag mines, 3 trip wires, 100 yards of rope that can support up to 400 pounds of weight, and 10 gallons of gasoline!
  • What's this thing made out of!? A single person on your team may have Captain 's shield.

: Please take note, I put a limit on how many throwing knives and bombs your characters are carrying.

vs.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#2 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: What no pic for Me Mow? Can teams trade weapons? Is pefect team work in place?

: I say we get Sewer Urchin

#3 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell: Me Mow had a pic, it must not have posted for some reason.

Your team is assumed to have gotten to know each other over the course of lets say one week, I'll modify the OP to reflect such.

Also, you each get to choose a perk. The limit is 1 type of perk per team, meaning you both can't choose the same perk, but you do each get to choose one. Just to clarify.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#4 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's a pic of Me Mow to edit in.

And here's one of Cole.

#5 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

We have picked

Sewer Urchin as our perk.

#6 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

We have picked

Sewer Urchin as our perk.

Wait what are you picking?

#7 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

Me Mow had a pic, it must not have posted for some reason.

Your team is assumed to have gotten to know each other over the course of lets say one week, I'll modify the OP to reflect such.

Also, you each get to choose a perk. The limit is 1 type of perk per team, meaning you both can't choose the same perk, but you do each get to choose one. Just to clarify.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

See @YoungJustice:

#8 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

We have picked

Sewer Urchin as our perk.

You and Joe each get a perk. If Sewer Urchin is his, you can pick another for yourself, or vice versa.

#9 Edited by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

My Debate

Prep:

We start setting up traps.

We set up the frag mines (blue dots), trip wire, (black circles), gasoline (yellow). We wont be using the rope as of the moment, as it serves no purpose.

Just want to note that Nightcralwer will be providing my team transportation, so he will be teleporting us from place to place, main reason why he would be able to get a frag so close to your team.

This should take us all the time.

Battle:

Artemis asks Nightcralwer to take her to (green plot point).

Nightcralwer then teleports to (pink dot) because he noticed movement.

He finds

Cole Macgrath.

Nightcralwer vs Cole Macgrath

I just firstly want to get his teleporting speed out of the way, since the whole white house scene was littered with slo-mo.

If you count between the time he teleports away, and the time he arrives it is approx. 1 second.

Now, on first instinct he teleports behind Cole and pushes him with his feet.

See 0:47, 1:12.

He has amazing kicking and overall foot strength. Cole would get knocked down, and while dazed/confused Nightcralwer teleports above him and throws him with his tail into a car.

See 0:51

This would most likely result in Cole using his com link and to get someone to help him, but little did he know, both teams are already fighting.

Meanwhile in the middle of the battlefield (circled in red)

Damian Wayne is fighting Wesley Gibson, Damian is evading Wesley's attacks and flipping over him. He then slides under Wesely and does this attack.

Then uses the 2 fingers technique to end Wesely.

Next up is Nick Fury and Artemis Crock vs Cass Cain and Deadshot

Nick quickly tackles Deadshot and starts to beat him, and should eventually k.o him.

While this is happening Artemis is getting Cain off her back.

Turn to 1:16

One of her arrows (explosion) is able to flip over a truck (military, so more weight than a normal truck.).

One of these could k.o Cassandra.

If she isnt k.oed then she goes ahead and uses another explosive arrow to k.o her.

Also want to note that Artemis is still standing on the top of the helipad.

Cole Macgrath vs Nightcralwer (cont.)

So Cole (still kind of dazed)is fighting Nightcralwer, even though he cant tag him.

Cole has tried to predict his movements, but Kurt is too hard to catch.

In an epic conclusion, Kurt teleports behind Cole and stabs him thru the chest with his tail.

: You can take on the people I havent fought I guess.

#10 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

My Debate

Prep:

We start setting up traps.

We set up the frag mines (blue dots), trip wire, (black circles), gasoline (yellow). We wont be using the rope as of the moment, as it serves no purpose.

Just want to note that Nightcralwer will be providing my team transportation, so he will be teleporting us from place to place, main reason why he would be able to get a frag so close to your team.

This should take us all the time.

Battle:

Artemis asks Nightcralwer to take her to (green plot point).

Nightcralwer then teleports to (pink dot) because he noticed movement.

He finds

Cole Macgrath.

Nightcralwer vs Cole Macgrath

I just firstly want to get his teleporting speed out of the way, since the whole white house scene was littered with slo-mo.

If you count between the time he teleports away, and the time he arrives it is approx. 1 second.

Now, on first instinct he teleports behind Cole and pushes him with his feet.

See 0:47, 1:12.

He has amazing kicking and overall foot strength. Cole would get knocked down, and while dazed/confused Nightcralwer teleports above him and throws him with his tail into a car.

See 0:51

This would most likely result in Cole using his com link and to get someone to help him, but little did he know, both teams are already fighting.

Will Edit this later, add in a full debate, but my eyes are hurting from so much time looking at a bright white screen.

Nice so far,

how do you draw on the pic?

I guess since you pick sea urchent i'll get I spy

Mine will be up as soon as YJ teels me how to draw on the map

#11 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

That is not Norfolk... must be West Side :)

#13 Edited by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

Deadshot will set himself up at the crane, where he has a clean view of the entire battlefield. Meanwhile, with his Sewer Urchin perk, Esquire will get the rest of his guys to set the area at the beginning of the strip leading to the crane,. Gasoline will be dumped out and spread evenly around to cover the entire width, so that way, if someone from the opposing team tries to come after Deadshot, all he has to do is land a couple pop shots at there feet once they enter the area, and the whole thing will erupt in flames from the spark.

If there's anyone on the opposing team who's balls are so low as to jump through the flames, they're still dead anyway. Each of our three frag mines will be placed at the foot of the crane, with loads of C4 courtesy of Snake and Domino within range. The second our enemy takes a step towards the ladder, the mines go, the C4 goes, and whoever dared to attack Floyd Lawton gets what they deserve.

With the precautions we've taken, Nightcrawler is the only one who has a fair chance at Deadshot. Since my team has full knowledge on you guys, we'll know you have a teleporter, and will know to leave Cole at the crane to provide Deadshot some backup.

So if Kurt goes for our sniper, he'll have to take on not only Deadshot, but the Electric Man as well.

Movie Nightcrawler is a bullet dodger, the White House scene proved that. Luckily for us,

Deadshot isn't your average marksman.

Coupled with Cole providing backup,

and Nightcrawler can't win.

The slow-mo during melee attacks with the Amp isn't just a gameplay mechanic, Cole's reflexes are just that advanced. Even before gaining his powers, Cole was an incredibly agile parkour expert. After the Ray Sphere gave him his powers, everything across the board was enhanced. He's more than capable of keeping up with teleports, and with his impressive durability, Nightcrawler is gonna need to be on his A-Game just to do damage.

I'll let someone else get a word in now, I'm fine with leaving it at this. Really, Deadshot should actually be capable of soloing this from where he is. You guys don't have many bullet dodgers, let alone bullets from Floyd Lawton.

He snipes people with Machine Guns. Considering he's armed with an actual Rifle here, there will be no escape.

You take it from here.

EDIT: Is the Infamous 2 video with Cole showing up for you guys?

#14 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Nick laid out our basic strategy pretty well in the post above, so I'll go about clarifying why YJ's strategy won't work.

@YoungJustice said:

Prep:
We set up the frag mines (blue dots), trip wire, (black circles), gasoline (yellow). We wont be using the rope as of the moment, as it serves no purpose.

No problems here, I don't see why you couldn't set things up like you've got them. Looks fine.

Battle:
Artemis asks Nightcralwer to take her to the carrier deck. Nightcralwer then teleports to (pink dot) because he noticed movement.
Nightcralwer vs Cole Macgrath
I just firstly want to get his teleporting speed out of the way, since the whole white house scene was littered with slo-mo. If you count between the time he teleports away, and the time he arrives it is approx. 1 second. Now, on first instinct he teleports behind Cole and pushes him with his feet. He has amazing kicking and overall foot strength. Cole would get knocked down, and while dazed/confused Nightcralwer teleports above him and throws him with his tail into a car. This would most likely result in Cole using his com link and to get someone to help him, but little did he know, both teams are already fighting. So Cole (still kind of dazed)is fighting Nightcralwer, even though he cant tag him. Cole has tried to predict his movements, but Kurt is too hard to catch. In an epic conclusion, Kurt teleports behind Cole and stabs him thru the chest with his tail.

Cole will be defending Deadshot at the crane, but Nightcrawler could still attack him. However, if he dos, things might go a little differently than you think. Cole has fought mutants with far greater than human strength, and he can own them in melee combat. It'll only take him one hit with the Amp to do serious damage to Nightcrawler. He also has enhanced reflexes and speed, which will make Nightcrawler blitzing him very difficult. In fact, Cole has even fought teleporters before. The Reaper Conduits in the first game were teleporters, and they had energy projection, too. But Cole killed dozens of them. Kuo and Nix were essentially teleporters in the first game, and Cole defeated each of them, depending which karma you played as. He also defeated monsters who burrowed under the ground, which, although not exactly teleporting, is similar enough. He's got plenty of experience dodging and predicting teleporters and the like. He's got enough power to put a serious beating on anyone, and Kurt has no durability showings. The one time he took a bullet, right after the scene you posted, he fled without completing his mission.

Meanwhile in the middle of the battlefield, Damian Wayne is fighting Wesley Gibson. Damian is evading Wesley's attacks and flipping over him. He then slides under Wesley and does this attack. (Sliding kick move) Then uses the 2 fingers technique to end Wesley.

I don't know how familiar you are with Wesley, but Damian won't have quite as easy a time with him as you think. First of all, he has bullet-time reflexes.

That's him deflecting the bullet with his knife. The bullet goes through the shooter's neck, by the way. Secondly, in the entire miniseries, he never misses a shot. Ever. The first time he picked up a gun he shot the wings off of a fly while it was in motion. Here he is clearing out a roomful of supervillians with a variety of metahuman powers. The woman speaking in the second scan started that word before the first scan, which gives you an idea of just how fast he's moving and shooting. This also shows off his acrobatics and agility, which are at the very least good enough to keep Damian Wayne from running rings around him.

Damian doesn't have the dodging feats to get close to him without getting shot several times, and even if he did, Wesley is fast enough to take him in close combat as well.

Next up is Nick Fury and Artemis Crock vs Cass Cain and Deadshot
Nick quickly tackles Deadshot and starts to beat him, and should eventually k.o him. While this is happening Artemis is getting Cain off her back. One of her arrows (explosion) is able to flip over a truck (military, so more weight than a normal truck.). One of these could k.o Cassandra. If she isnt k.oed then she goes ahead and uses another explosive arrow to k.o her. Also want to note that Artemis is still standing on the top of the helipad.

I see Deadshot shooting both of them before any of this has a chance to happen, but even if it did, it wouldn't happen like this. Nick can't get close to Deadshot, since he's sniping, and I'd like to see some bullet-dodging feats that say Nick Fury can avoid Deadshot with a .50 Cal. I'd also like to see some dodging feats for Artemis. Now, if Artemis tries to shoot Cassandra, she'll miss. Simple as that. Batgirl can dodge bullets well after they're fired, so she'll have no trouble dodging an arrow. Also, Artemis only gets one explosive arrow. The OP says one of each special arrow. But Deadshot can shoot her and Batgirl can dodge her. She can't do much against either of them.

A couple things to add, strategy wise: We both have the I Spy perk, so we both have full knowledge. No advantage there for either team. Our basic strategy will be to have Deadshot snipe all of your team from the crane, while the traps and Cole defend him. Revolver, Snake, Wesley, and Domino will all charge your team, and since they all have fantastic marksmanship feats they'll be able to clean up anyone Floyd doesn't shoot. This leaves Cass and Zoro to, I don't know, play cards or something. I guess we can use them later if we need to.

#15 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

In Prep Me Mow give Mai some poison to put on her knifes then they go into the building closest to them to hide out and talk about strategy

I choose to send Me Mow and X after Cole and DS, so X teleports with Me Mow to the top of the crane. While DS is looking over the other team he'll probley here the Portal opening so he'll turn around but X will throw Me Mow at his face and she'll stab him in the eye with her knife. X turns around and takes on Cole. He'll start throwing X'es that Cole will doge then he charges him with his blades out and attack, While there fighting Mow runs over to Cole and climbs up him, stabing him the whole way up. He will ether A: Ignore it then Mow will climb to his head and stab his eyes out or B: get distracted and get killed by X

Cole and Dead Shot Down, no snipes for you

I keep going in a bit

#16 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

This leaves Cass and Zoro to, I don't know, play cards or something. I guess we can use them later if we need to.

Zoro would win just for the record ;)

Not to say Artemis isn't a crack shot, but I've gotta say, Cassandra Cain is one of - if not THE fastest humans in all of, not comics, but fiction as a whole.

As a child she dodges bullets from her father, David Cain.

As a slightly older child, she does it even easier.

Speed / Agility / Combat Speed:

Cass will finish you before you drop your beer.

So once she closes the distance, like this,

She can do this to Artemis

Or this

#17 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: counter?

#18 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Where is the rest of your team?

#19 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell said:

In Prep Me Mow give Mai some poison to put on her knifes then they go into the building closest to them to hide out and talk about strategy

I choose to send Me Mow and X after Cole and DS, so X teleports with Me Mow to the top of the crane. While DS is looking over the other team he'll probley here the Portal opening so he'll turn around but X will throw Me Mow at his face and she'll stab him in the eye with her knife. X turns around and takes on Cole. He'll start throwing X'es that Cole will doge then he charges him with his blades out and attack, While there fighting Mow runs over to Cole and climbs up him, stabing him the whole way up. He will ether A: Ignore it then Mow will climb to his head and stab his eyes out or B: get distracted and get killed by X

Cole and Dead Shot Down, no snipes for you

I keep going in a bit

Deadshot has a bulletproof suit that covers his face. All the counter I need. Plus, as Nick's scan showed, he has the speed to shoot a speedster. When Me Mow leaps at him, he'll shoot the cute little guy. Unless you can prove that Red X is bulletproof, he'll go down quickly as well. And even if he is bulletproof, a .50 cal round to the face can still knock him off of the crane. If Me Mow attacked Cole instead of Deadshot, Cole has the speed and reflexes to get an attack off as the kitty leaps for him. He can use his blast powers to toss Me Mow back, and while Me Mow is floating in the air, Cole can either Megawatt Hammer or regular blast him to death. If Red X attacks, I'll use the same arguments as I did for why Cole will beat Nightcrawler. Essentially he has more offensive power and has fought teleporters before. Plus, he's right next to a huge electric crane, so he can drain energy from that to heal himself.

Me Mow and Red X down, and Deadshot can then shoot Mai and Ty Lee from his position on the crane. Neither of them have any feats to put them at bullet-dodging level, especially not against a marksman of Deadshot's caliber.

#20 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire:

Is he laying down to snipe or standing?

Oh and My whole team is in the building away from all windows waiting

#21 Edited by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wondering, is it okay for me to help Joe debate.

#22 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Just wondering, is it okay for me to help Joe debate.

Why would it not be?

WHY DO I NEED HELP

#23 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Just wondering, is it okay for me to help Joe debate.

Absolutely. The more debate the merrier. Nick and I have been doing it, so it's more than fair for you to do the same.

Deadshot is standing. I can't think of any time he's lain down to shoot, at least not off the top of my head.

And obviously not your whole team, if you're attacking. Also, Deadshot has a .50 cal, which can shoot through walls, and has a thermal scope, so he can see through them. Unless you have solid steel walls in your building, you're still in trouble. And you also have to deal with the rest of our shooters charging that building.

#24 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Just wondering, is it okay for me to help Joe debate.

That's the point. You guys are partners.

#25 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Deadshot will set himself up at the crane, where he has a clean view of the entire battlefield. Meanwhile, with his Sewer Urchin perk, Esquire will get the rest of his guys to set the area at the beginning of the strip leading to the crane,. Gasoline will be dumped out and spread evenly around to cover the entire width, so that way, if someone from the opposing team tries to come after Deadshot, all he has to do is land a couple pop shots at there feet once they enter the area, and the whole thing will erupt in flames from the spark.

If there's anyone on the opposing team who's balls are so low as to jump through the flames, they're still dead anyway. Each of our three frag mines will be placed at the foot of the crane, with loads of C4 courtesy of Snake and Domino within range. The second our enemy takes a step towards the ladder, the mines go, the C4 goes, and whoever dared to attack Floyd Lawton gets what they deserve.

With the precautions we've taken, Nightcrawler is the only one who has a fair chance at Deadshot. Since my team has full knowledge on you guys, we'll know you have a teleporter, and will know to leave Cole at the crane to provide Deadshot some backup.

So if Kurt goes for our sniper, he'll have to take on not only Deadshot, but the Electric Man as well.

Movie Nightcrawler is a bullet dodger, the White House scene proved that. Luckily for us,

Deadshot isn't your average marksman.

Coupled with Cole providing backup,

and Nightcrawler can't win.

The slow-mo during melee attacks with the Amp isn't just a gameplay mechanic, Cole's reflexes are just that advanced. Even before gaining his powers, Cole was an incredibly agile parkour expert. After the Ray Sphere gave him his powers, everything across the board was enhanced. He's more than capable of keeping up with teleports, and with his impressive durability, Nightcrawler is gonna need to be on his A-Game just to do damage.

I'll let someone else get a word in now, I'm fine with leaving it at this. Really, Deadshot should actually be capable of soloing this from where he is. You guys don't have many bullet dodgers, let alone bullets from Floyd Lawton.

He snipes people with Machine Guns. Considering he's armed with an actual Rifle here, there will be no escape.

You take it from here.

EDIT: Is the Infamous 2 video with Cole showing up for you guys?

A few things I wrong with your debate more or less following Cole.

1) Nightcralwer cant be tagged by Deadshot.

He moves faster than bullets.

See 0:37 ^

He dodges those bullets like they were nothing. ^

He is fast enough to take out 3 guards before one can even pull the trigger. ^

^^ See 1:52>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>^

2) You also have not stated how exactly he they were going to put down Nightcrawler.

With bullets being kind of a non-factor and Cole not having good enough reaction speed to keep up with teleportation :

Note that it only take him (approx.) 1 second to get from place to place

Nightcralwer has shown he will kill.

#26 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

@nickzambuto said:

Movie Nightcrawler is a bullet dodger, the White House scene proved that. Luckily for us,

Deadshot isn't your average marksman.

The slow-mo during melee attacks with the Amp isn't just a gameplay mechanic, Cole's reflexes are just that advanced. After the Ray Sphere gave him his powers, everything across the board was enhanced. He's more than capable of keeping up with teleports, and with his impressive durability, Nightcrawler is gonna need to be on his A-Game just to do damage.

A few things I wrong with your debate more or less following Cole. 1) Nightcralwer cant be tagged by Deadshot. He moves faster than bullets. He dodges those bullets like they were nothing. He is fast enough to take out 3 guards before one can even pull the trigger. 2) You also have not stated how exactly he they were going to put down Nightcrawler. With bullets being kind of a non-factor and Cole not having good enough reaction speed to keep up with teleportation : Note that it only take him (approx.) 1 second to get from place to place Nightcralwer has shown he will kill.

1) Nightcrawler didn't move faster than those bullets, he just dodged the aim by running up the walls and things like that. There are no walls to run up around Deadshot, and he wouldn't be thrown off by that, anyway. And I think the scan above illustrates exactly what will happen if Nightcrawler goes after Lawton. In the scan Captain Boomerang, who's capable of outrunning bullets, tries to blitz Floyd from less than 10 feet away, and Deadshot has his gun up in time to shoot him. If Nightcrawler teleports close enough to attack Deadshot, Lawton has the reflexes to kill him.

2) Have you read my part of the debate? I brought up several things about Cole that I think help show why he can beat Nightcrawler, such as fighting other teleporters, and he also has wide-area attacks like Shockwave, which make it easier to hit Kurt. Nick also showed Cole's enhanced reflexes and perceptions in his video.

Also, Nightcrawler in that video was being mind-controlled, so he's not in character, which makes his morals there irrelevant. Has he shown a willingness to kill in any other scenes?

#27 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell said:

Oh and My whole team is in the building away from all windows waiting

That's fine. With Me Mow and Red X away, plus Cole and Deadshot at the crain, that leaves is with even numbers.

Solid Snake VS Nick Fury

Just an awesome fight. However, I hold one distinct advantage.

Wildcard - Solid Snake: SOCOM, Patriot, Stun Knife, Octocamo, Solid Eye, PSG1 Sniper Rifle, Rail Gun, C4, Mk. II, CODEC

Against,

Martial Artist - Nick Fury (616) (Unarmed)

Snake shoots Nick from 20 yards. H2H this might be more debatable, but I've never seen Nick Fury dodge bullets, so it won't come to that.

Zoro VS Ty Lee

Zoro pretty much has everything he can have over Ty Lee. She's pretty fast, but not faster than Zoro. She's probably more acrobatic than the swordsman, I'll say that.

In terms of skill, Zoro's goal is to become the world's greatest swordsmen, and he's only a few steps off as of now.

After being starved for nearly a month, he's right back into the swing of things as a dozen marines all swing at him, each strike being blocked.

Ty Lee works pressure points yes? Well, as good as her hand to hand combat is, it's simple logic that a sword>fist. If this were hand to hand, or even sword to sword, blows could be blocked and deflected. But if Ty Lee tries to do anything here other than dodge, it'll be over.

Revolver Ocelot VS Damian Wayne

What is this? All that's left for Shalashaska is a child? Ocelot could shoot the brat square between the eyes if he wanted, or he could spare him death and beat him hand to hand. Not as a form of mercy, just so he can prove he could.

Damian is a minor bullet dodger, but he's no where near the level of speed needed to avoid the bullets from someone of Ocelot's skill, who can kill an entire military unit before any of them can even react.

Keep in mind, that's a young, arrogant, inexperienced, far less capable Ocelot, before he even joined FOXHOUND and got the 'Revolver' moniker. Current Ocelot is even better.

I'll leave you to clean up the rest.

@YoungJustice said:

A few things I wrong with your debate more or less following Cole.

1) Nightcralwer cant be tagged by Deadshot.

He moves faster than bullets.

See 0:37 ^

He dodges those bullets like they were nothing. ^

He is fast enough to take out 3 guards before one can even pull the trigger. ^

^^ See 1:52>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>^

2) You also have not stated how exactly he they were going to put down Nightcrawler.

With bullets being kind of a non-factor and Cole not having good enough reaction speed to keep up with teleportation :

Note that it only take him (approx.) 1 second to get from place to place

Nightcralwer has shown he will kill.

Nightcrawler dodged bullets from a no-name White House guard. Deadshot tagged a speedsters just for spite, I already posted the scans. He can tag Kurt as well. Especially considering, right after the clip you posted ends, Nightcrawler gets shot and teleports away without completing his mission.

Where do you get Cole doesn't have the reaction time? Like Esquire went over, Cole killed dozens of teleporters in Infamous 1. They were nothing but cannon fodder goons to him. The gameplay video I posted shows Cole's reflexes as making things look to be in slow motion.

If neither Deadshot nor Cole can beat Nightcrawler alone, they can surely do it together.

#28 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

Also, Nightcrawler in that video was being mind-controlled, so he's not in character, which makes his morals there irrelevant. Has he shown a willingness to kill in any other scenes?

Nightcrawler was just as super religious in the movie as he is in the comics, I doubt he's the no mercy kill or be killed type.

#29 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

Joewell forfeited but I am still in this.

I will be damned if I lose just because my opponent dropped.

#30 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Joewell forfeited but I am still in this.

I will be damned if I lose just because my opponent dropped.

lol

...

So we spend 30 pages arguing over Joe's team... only for him to drop out the second we get started?

#31 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Joewell forfeited but I am still in this.

I will be damned if I lose just because my opponent dropped.

Another thing...

You probably shouldn't say "I'll be damned if I lose" when there's, ya know... a chance that you'll lose. ^.^

#32 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@YoungJustice said:

@nickzambuto said:

Movie Nightcrawler is a bullet dodger, the White House scene proved that. Luckily for us,

Deadshot isn't your average marksman.

The slow-mo during melee attacks with the Amp isn't just a gameplay mechanic, Cole's reflexes are just that advanced. After the Ray Sphere gave him his powers, everything across the board was enhanced. He's more than capable of keeping up with teleports, and with his impressive durability, Nightcrawler is gonna need to be on his A-Game just to do damage.

A few things I wrong with your debate more or less following Cole. 1) Nightcralwer cant be tagged by Deadshot. He moves faster than bullets. He dodges those bullets like they were nothing. He is fast enough to take out 3 guards before one can even pull the trigger. 2) You also have not stated how exactly he they were going to put down Nightcrawler. With bullets being kind of a non-factor and Cole not having good enough reaction speed to keep up with teleportation : Note that it only take him (approx.) 1 second to get from place to place Nightcralwer has shown he will kill.

1) Nightcrawler didn't move faster than those bullets, he just dodged the aim by running up the walls and things like that. There are no walls to run up around Deadshot, and he wouldn't be thrown off by that, anyway. And I think the scan above illustrates exactly what will happen if Nightcrawler goes after Lawton. In the scan Captain Boomerang, who's capable of outrunning bullets, tries to blitz Floyd from less than 10 feet away, and Deadshot has his gun up in time to shoot him. If Nightcrawler teleports close enough to attack Deadshot, Lawton has the reflexes to kill him.

2) Have you read my part of the debate? I brought up several things about Cole that I think help show why he can beat Nightcrawler, such as fighting other teleporters, and he also has wide-area attacks like Shockwave, which make it easier to hit Kurt. Nick also showed Cole's enhanced reflexes and perceptions in his video.

Also, Nightcrawler in that video was being mind-controlled, so he's not in character, which makes his morals there irrelevant. Has he shown a willingness to kill in any other scenes?

1) When I said dodged I meant evaded.

Yes Dawton has the reflexes but he doesnt know exactly where or when Nightcralwer is going to strike.

This also is assuming Nightcrlawer doesnt teleport Deadshot to another part of the map before he can pull the trigger.

2) Yup, some of these are gameplay mechanics, so cant really be used or debated about.

I havent watch X2 in like 6 months, so sorry I didnt realize that.

#33 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@YoungJustice said:

Joewell forfeited but I am still in this.

I will be damned if I lose just because my opponent dropped.

Another thing...

You probably shouldn't say "I'll be damned if I lose" when there's, ya know... a chance that you'll lose. ^.^

I said because of my opponent, if I lose it will most likely be because of you and Esquire teaming up on me.

#34 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice: Go ahead and debate with his team and your team then.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#35 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

@nickzambuto said:

@YoungJustice said:

Joewell forfeited but I am still in this.

I will be damned if I lose just because my opponent dropped.

Another thing...

You probably shouldn't say "I'll be damned if I lose" when there's, ya know... a chance that you'll lose. ^.^

I said because of my opponent, if I lose it will most likely be because of you and Esquire teaming up on me.

Fair enough. You're right, even if he stayed you'd probably lose :P

#36 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@YoungJustice said:

Joewell forfeited but I am still in this.

I will be damned if I lose just because my opponent dropped.

lol

...

So we spend 30 pages arguing over Joe's team... only for him to drop out the second we get started?

#37 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell: Trust me, he cant be madder than me.

#38 Posted by nickzambuto (13419 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

@joewell: Trust me, he cant be madder than me.

lol

#39 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@joewell said:

Oh and My whole team is in the building away from all windows waiting

That's fine. With Me Mow and Red X away, plus Cole and Deadshot at the crain, that leaves is with even numbers.

Solid Snake VS Nick Fury

Just an awesome fight. However, I hold one distinct advantage.

Wildcard - Solid Snake: SOCOM, Patriot, Stun Knife, Octocamo, Solid Eye, PSG1 Sniper Rifle, Rail Gun, C4, Mk. II, CODEC

Against,

Martial Artist - Nick Fury (616) (Unarmed)

Snake shoots Nick from 20 yards. H2H this might be more debatable, but I've never seen Nick Fury dodge bullets, so it won't come to that.

Zoro VS Ty Lee

Zoro pretty much has everything he can have over Ty Lee. She's pretty fast, but not faster than Zoro. She's probably more acrobatic than the swordsman, I'll say that.

In terms of skill, Zoro's goal is to become the world's greatest swordsmen, and he's only a few steps off as of now.

After being starved for nearly a month, he's right back into the swing of things as a dozen marines all swing at him, each strike being blocked.

Ty Lee works pressure points yes? Well, as good as her hand to hand combat is, it's simple logic that a sword>fist. If this were hand to hand, or even sword to sword, blows could be blocked and deflected. But if Ty Lee tries to do anything here other than dodge, it'll be over.

Revolver Ocelot VS Damian Wayne

What is this? All that's left for Shalashaska is a child? Ocelot could shoot the brat square between the eyes if he wanted, or he could spare him death and beat him hand to hand. Not as a form of mercy, just so he can prove he could.

Damian is a minor bullet dodger, but he's no where near the level of speed needed to avoid the bullets from someone of Ocelot's skill, who can kill an entire military unit before any of them can even react.

Keep in mind, that's a young, arrogant, inexperienced, far less capable Ocelot, before he even joined FOXHOUND and got the 'Revolver' moniker. Current Ocelot is even better.

I'll leave you to clean up the rest.

@YoungJustice said:

A few things I wrong with your debate more or less following Cole.

1) Nightcralwer cant be tagged by Deadshot.

He moves faster than bullets.

See 0:37 ^

He dodges those bullets like they were nothing. ^

He is fast enough to take out 3 guards before one can even pull the trigger. ^

^^ See 1:52>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>^

2) You also have not stated how exactly he they were going to put down Nightcrawler.

With bullets being kind of a non-factor and Cole not having good enough reaction speed to keep up with teleportation :

Note that it only take him (approx.) 1 second to get from place to place

Nightcralwer has shown he will kill.

Nightcrawler dodged bullets from a no-name White House guard. Deadshot tagged a speedsters just for spite, I already posted the scans. He can tag Kurt as well. Especially considering, right after the clip you posted ends, Nightcrawler gets shot and teleports away without completing his mission.

Where do you get Cole doesn't have the reaction time? Like Esquire went over, Cole killed dozens of teleporters in Infamous 1. They were nothing but cannon fodder goons to him. The gameplay video I posted shows Cole's reflexes as making things look to be in slow motion.

If neither Deadshot nor Cole can beat Nightcrawler alone, they can surely do it together.

Solid Snake vs Nick Fury

I guess this technically isnt a bullet dodging feat, but might as well.

He blocks fire in the first panel, thats about it.

Dodges Cap's shield, which should be faster than a bullet or at least equal to.

So, assuming Nick dodges the bullet, he could possibly get the drop on Snake, but in the end, I wont lie, Snake would kill him in a long awesome battle.

Ty Lee vs Zoro

Ty Lee has a speed, agility, skill advantage here.

She has taken out a squad of earthbenders.

See 0:13

They didnt even see her coming before she chi-blocked them.

Also, want to note that she can chi block a person with 2 fingers, 2 hands, etc. it just depends on where she strikes.

Ty Lee has also evaded and chi-blocked before at the same time.

See 1:04

She pretty easily evades a Kyoshi warrior, and still has the time to chi-block her.

Revolver Ocelot VS Damian Wayne

Nightcrlawer vs Cole and Deadshot

This was when Nightcralwer was caught off guard (which he wont be in this battle)

These are just cannon-fodder teleporters, they dont have the feats to suggest they can go toe to toe with Nightcrawler, or even keep up with him.

You still havent said exactly how this would be done, when its damn near impossible to tag him while focused.

#40 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell: Why are you dropping, man? This would be a really fun debate!

#41 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@joewell: Why are you dropping, man? This would be a really fun debate!

He gave up.

#42 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

I've already gotten a good amount of debate in, so if you'd like I can stop debating and let you and Nick go at it man to man.

#43 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

I've already gotten a good amount of debate in, so if you'd like I can stop debating and let you and Nick go at it man to man.

No, its okay. I want to win/lose this 2-1.

#44 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Esquire said:

This leaves Cass and Zoro to, I don't know, play cards or something. I guess we can use them later if we need to.

Zoro would win just for the record ;)

Not to say Artemis isn't a crack shot, but I've gotta say, Cassandra Cain is one of - if not THE fastest humans in all of, not comics, but fiction as a whole.

As a child she dodges bullets from her father, David Cain.

As a slightly older child, she does it even easier.

Speed / Agility / Combat Speed:

Cass will finish you before you drop your beer.

So once she closes the distance, like this,

She can do this to Artemis

Or this

Her explosive arrows are like grenades, you dont have to be hit directly to be affected.

See 1:18

These arrows have enough force to flip a tank, and make it roll after.

So even if she dodges it, it still will at the least knock her over, then Arty pulls out one of these.

See 2:36

Bye Bye Black Bat.

#45 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Her explosive arrows are like grenades, you dont have to be hit directly to be affected.

These arrows have enough force to flip a tank, and make it roll after.

So even if she dodges it, it still will at the least knock her over, then Arty pulls out one of these.

Bye Bye Black Bat.

I can't find a scan of the page before this one, but Batgirl is standing where I've drawn the arrow when the bullet is fired. So she moves 10-15 feet in the time the bullet moves 5-10. She can move out of the way of the blast radius as soon as the arrow is fired, especially since the arrow is slower than a bullet.

#46 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@YoungJustice said:

Her explosive arrows are like grenades, you dont have to be hit directly to be affected.

These arrows have enough force to flip a tank, and make it roll after.

So even if she dodges it, it still will at the least knock her over, then Arty pulls out one of these.

Bye Bye Black Bat.

I can't find a scan of the page before this one, but Batgirl is standing where I've drawn the arrow when the bullet is fired. So she moves 10-15 feet in the time the bullet moves 5-10. She can move out of the way of the blast radius as soon as the arrow is fired, especially since the arrow is slower than a bullet.

Oh, thats neat.

But again, Artemis's explosive arrows have shown the force to make mountains explode with ease.

You can dodge it, but you cant avoid being in the blast radius, if you don't have some type of teleportation, superspeed, PIS, etc.

#47 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

@Esquire said:

@YoungJustice said:

Her explosive arrows are like grenades, you dont have to be hit directly to be affected.

These arrows have enough force to flip a tank, and make it roll after.

So even if she dodges it, it still will at the least knock her over, then Arty pulls out one of these.

Bye Bye Black Bat.

I can't find a scan of the page before this one, but Batgirl is standing where I've drawn the arrow when the bullet is fired. So she moves 10-15 feet in the time the bullet moves 5-10. She can move out of the way of the blast radius as soon as the arrow is fired, especially since the arrow is slower than a bullet.

Oh, thats neat.

But again, Artemis's explosive arrows have shown the force to make mountains explode with ease.

You can dodge it, but you cant avoid being in the blast radius, if you don't have some type of teleportation, superspeed, PIS, etc.

Mountains, i thought it was army trucks

#48 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell: Both, and please dont interfere with my debate.

#49 Posted by joewell (6308 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Both, and please dont interfere with my debate.

oh ok, didn't know that

I mean why didn't you start saying that it can blow up a mountain at the start

#50 Posted by YoungJustice (6799 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell said:

@YoungJustice said:

Both, and please dont interfere with my debate.

oh ok, didn't know that

I mean why didn't you start saying that it can blow up a mountain at the start

Its called strategy.................................