This match is made for the reading pleasure of the readers as well as the enjoyment of the contestants.
For newbies that don't understand what's going on, check out the CaV post that is stickied on the Battles Forum.
Good luck to both and have fun!
Any participant that attempts to sneak in a character will have the option of removing that character, however, if he doesn't the voters should take it into consideration.
Matches officially start January 11, voting starts January 21.
The Teams
In one corner, we have a hall of fame debater, using obscure characters while somehow still pulling of wins, please give it up for @beatboks1!
Gallery
Classic Captain Comet (8)
Composite Animal Man (5)
Lobo (5)
Vril Dox II (1)
15 minutes prep (2)
Argus (1)
Dr. Occult (3)
On the other hand, representing some of the Justice Society, we have a rookie looking to earn his stripes while debating against one of the Vine's best, please welcome @firestormfate1919!
Gallery
Alan Scott nerfed to the speed of sound without Starheart
Black Adam
Modern Dr. Fate (not Nabu, or Nelson)
Human Bomb
Ragman
Rules
No power absorption/mimicking
No cloning
No temporal manipulation or time travel
No PIS
Please be polite
Have fun!
EDIT: We are open for voting! Please come and vote on who you think had the better argument.
If Alan Scott as a 5 pointer doesn't get the Starheart could I swap him and Black Adam. By that I mean get normal Alan as an 8 pointer (obviously not at the levels were he was soloing the JLA), and Nerf Adam to hypersonic as a 5 pointer. Alan just doesn't really have feats as an Oan Lantern.
If Alan Scott as a 5 pointer doesn't get the Starheart could I swap him and Black Adam. By that I mean get normal Alan as an 8 pointer (obviously not at the levels were he was soloing the JLA), and Nerf Adam to hypersonic as a 5 pointer. Alan just doesn't really have feats as an Oan Lantern.
I don't think the stipulation is saying you aren't normal Alan. many people refer to "not starheart" as not possessed by the starheart (which is the Blackest night solo all DC earth thing).
Besides Alan has a shite load of better feats as a normal GL prior to the "starheart" ever being mentioned than any other Lantern. There is also the fat that up until he absorbed the starhert he was only powered by the "green Flame" which is a portion of the starheart only (as in only the good magic as opposed to all the magic that the Guardians gathered). That period even includes his "sentinel" days.
Alan is basically either a 5 pointer or a 20 pointer, there isn't a middle ground as I see it.
@beatboks1: In that case I'm fine with Alan the way he is. I just didn't want anyone saying that none of his feats count because his ring is technically an extension of the Starheart energy.
@firestormfate1919: @beatboks1: Oh god, Beatboks versus Alan and Fate! And Human Bomb and Ragman and Black Adam? Good luck FirestormFate, you will need it.
@dedmanwalkin: heh heh, he couldnt have picked a team I know any better (well he could have used Hellstrom or Arion but wouldnt have afforded them with the cost of Ragman or Human Bomb and its not like I'm not familiar with both)
Dox has both Comet TP link my team, while Occult goes into a meditative state and learns who we are up agajnst.
Dox uses the TP link to become fully aware of the abilities of Animal Man, Occult and Argus (already being well acquainted with Comet and Lobo both being members of the team he leads.
In less than a minute he is aware of what Animal man can do and has him use the power he once used of Bwanna Beast to merge the DNA of everyone of my team into a single super being. Animal Man was actually able to use Bwanna beasts power to do more than BB could himeslf and actually play with the DNA strands to create a new super white blood cell to fight disease. This in the hands of a genius in genetics like Dox will allow my new Super being to do amazing things.
Dox was after all the one who created the artificial body that houses Pulsar Stargrave which has Superman level stats and vast energy manip powers. he also enhanced himself with prep to be a physical match for Lobo and was able to match and beat him in H2H because of this. To do those things he needed time and equipment which he no longer will, as he can accomplish with a thought what would have taken weeks with his equipment.
He will use Animal Man's mophagenic link to the animals to alter the DNA/cells to include the stacked powers of speed that he used against Rotworld Flash
He will also stack the durability and healing factors of various animals on top of that of Lobo and Argus. He will also stack the TP and shape shifting of a Protien with the Tp of Bwanna Beast, all the senses of the animal kingdom with the relative time rate of a fly.
Now here is the kicker. Classic Comet's genes are loaded with an energy that mutated him into a future potential 100,000's of years ahead of where his body etc was at the time. To get some idea of what that means for mynew merged being consider how much more powerful Superman 1 million is than 21st cent Superman.
In this new merged form he will be mutating the existing super powered entity to even greater heights. So where his original metamorphosis changed a normal man who at peak potential could lift maybe 400 lbs (lets be generous and say 500) he became a 100+ tonner. That's an enhancement of 400 times +. he had invulnerable skin, could use mind over matter to matter manipulate. could control the energy of a Green Lantern lantern against their control, could TP scan an entire dimension, and had vast TK . This isnt to say any enhancement I get will be by that quantity its just to show what has occured from that energy.
Then using the disk of the 7 that counters all magic my new super gei g will create a shield that prevents magic from having any effect on him.
So my new merged being will have
Speed greater than Flash (rotworld flash speed on amp)
Reactions to match Zoom (relative time rate of a fly who's life span is 2 days making 80 years for an adversary only 2 days to me, plus precog and Argus' vision that allows him to see future actions)
Strength vastly greater than is required to move a star/ stellar mass (Lobo's best strength feat with the effect of Captain Comet's evolution/mutation further enhancing him) - that is excluding the strength amps from Animal mans stacked animal powers making him a 100+ tonner.
The best durabikity and regeneration of anyone in the tournament (combined durability of Comet, Lobo, and the regeneration of Lobo, Argus, and animal man who have all regrown body parts grestly amplified by the mutation to future potential.
Has the combined TP/TK of Bwanna Beast, a Protien, and Dr Occult amolified by the mutation making even the impressive feats of Captain Comet pretty ordinary since that was just the enhancement of a NORMAL human.
Has the intellect of a 10th level genius (10 times the combined intellect of all mankind) vastly enhanced by mutatiin( Comet himself was stated to be a genius and that was from a normal human mind amped)
has all the senses of the animal kingdom added to the amazing sight of Argus also further enhanced
The sonic and electric and light manipulating powers plus mass manipulation etc etc all shiwn by Animal man.
can still manipulate matter and energy in the way Classic Comet could (probably due to a greater base mind to a far greater degree, plus has more knowledge on how to use that)
has the shape shifting power of a protien also enhanced to new heights.
and to cap it off is armed with a powerful talisman that can deflect all energy and cancel all magic directed at him which has a pre prepared shield to do just that (making Fate and Alan all bue useless)
Now there will be complaints no doubt that my new character can solo the Justice League big 7, which he more than likely can. However soloing them without Flash was only 20 points and I spent all 25 to get this level of power.
From here being vastly more powerful than your team I blitz the crap out of them with little to worry about.especially si ce your heavy hitters cant even harm me
Ok. So I usually open a tournament by describing the traits and abilities of my characters. However, considering you probably know more about them than I do I’m just going to skip that for now. If you do want me to go ahead and type one up I’m fine with that as well, so just say the word. For starters that plan is a very well-thought and intriguing idea. I greatly applaud the fact that you sought out a creative way to utilize the talents of this team. However, just too much of this plan is based on immaterial evidence and assumption.
The first major problem in this plan is the TP link that sets everything up. While Comet has shown powerful TP feats, he has never been able to fully transmit massive amounts of information by TP alone. Animal Man will never be able to transmit the amount of information needed to let Dox fully understand these powers. There is no way this transaction will be under a minute long (I doubt even 15 minutes will be enough).
Secondly, what leads you to believe that Animal Man even understands his powers to the degree that would be necessary for your plan. He could only do that with help from G’wanna Beast, and even then he barely merged simple basic human DNA (Keep in mind working with the DNA of multiple meta-humans and Aliens will be thousands of times harder than the normal human DNA of only two beings). There is no evidence that Animal Man can even fully merge DNA to the point of creating Muti-cellular higher functioning lifeforms. I get that Dox is a genius of geniuses but this seems a little far fetched given that Dox has never worked with the DNA of meta-humans excluding Kryptonians, who he had great knowledge on based on the relation-ship between his predecessor and the race. When he genetically modified himself I believe it was by manipulating the energy within his body rather than genetic splicing such as he would have to use in order to create a super-being of the caliber you are describing. If not even Buddy himself understands the race that modified him, how can he transmit sufficient information to Dox. In order to genetically splice something it takes complete mapping of every detail in the respective chromosomes. Without the understanding of the origins of his teammates Dox can’t possibly succeed in creating a super-hybrid. Lobo’s DNA will be a challenge as well. It was so unique that not even the original Braniac (who was smarter than Dox) could begin to fully contemplate Lobo’s genetic structure. Correct me if Im wrong (I very well may be as I haven’t read much on Comet in a very long time), but didn't Captain Comet’s accelerated evolution remain a mystery to Dox? Why should he have any success with splicing this unstable and unknown DNA? I find it hard to believe that Dox succeeds in figuring out the various abnormalities and characteristics of come of the most genetically advanced beings in the galaxy. While the feats you mentioned are impressive they become more irrelevant as you look deeper into the context of the situations. So, while I get were you’re coming from, I seriously doubt this part of the plan can succeed.
The third major issue comes if (it’s very unlikely the plan makes it this far given the situation) Dox does succeed in the initial genetic splicing. As is the very nature of DNA is domination through natural selection this fight will mostly occur at the genetic level. A super-advanced version of human DNA will grow further and further from resembling Buddy Baker’s obsolete DNA. A genetic splicing is in nature the combining of cells through homologous targeting (basically the systematic strategy of eliminating one chromosome to make room for another). This only works if the DNA shares a basic composition of energy. Otherwise, the transaction will simply result in superior DNA destroying the more archaic version. The one exception of this method is in the creation of Superboy. However, the only reason this worked is because of the unique symbiosis that results from this particular combination (this is what allows Superbly abilities like tactical telekinesis). Comet’s DNA will burn through Buddy’s in a second. Without the meta-gene necessary to maintain homeostasis during this process there is no way for successful combination. I could go on and on with more reasons this is genetic suicide but I don’t think they're really necessary. Through Lobo and Dox’s DNA in there and this becomes an all out genetic massacre. Keep in mind that part of the reason Lobo’s healing factor is so powerful is it’s ability to self-replicate. That will not end well in a genetic combination that needs to be so exact. Lobo DNA just cant be controlled. At this point this plan is less likely than getting struck by lightning a hundred times in a row.
Ok, so assuming somehow all this works, the effects just don’t add up. Each individual strain of DNA takes a completely separate path of evolution. For instance, certain micro-organisms can evolve in mere months while it takes mammals millions of years. As the species begin to vary DNA begins to look less and less similar. Buddy Baker, Vril Dox, and Lobo all have very abnormal variations of evolutionary advancement. For instance Vril has already reached the end of his evolutionary standing (hence the need for robotic upgrades sought out by his father). This means that even if your plan does work Dox’s DNA will not be of any use what-so-ever. In regard to evolutionary science it is assumed that as a species advances it begins to slow down until it reaches an inevitable halt (This is what happened to the Braniac blood-line). There is no guarantee that Buddy and Lobo will even evolve if they are enhanced. However, wether they can or not is irrelevant as they won’t because of the different origin of Comet’s DNA. The human evolutionary chain will not apply to Czarnian or other Alien DNA meaning the enhancement through evolutionary advancement can’t possibly work. The nature of Czarnian DNA is to retain the exact code of Lobo. This is why even when he regenerates from puddles of blood he is still the same person. This means it can’t be enhanced or evolved by any means. At this point the only benefit of splicing the DNA at all is to get the abilities of Buddy. However, all that would evolve would be his human abilities which would consume and destroy the inferior (at least in terms of homeostasis) alien DNA that gives him his powers. At this point all that can be accomplished even if you do make it this far is an effective clone of Captain Comet (and maybe Argus).
I believe I have provided sufficient information to debunk your original plan. I did simplify a few of the concepts I discussed because I didn't want it to be too painful to read. Anyway, I’ll try to follow up with a plan of action for my team soon. It shouldn't need to be that elaborate because I do think my team out-guns yours without your super-being. If you do end up winning this though, I have to say that this was a very creative idea.
So now I’m going to outline my basic plan of attack. I’m not going to go into as much detail as I’d like to (I’m swamped with school work right now so I don’t have much time), but hopefully this will allow beatboks sufficient info to write up a rebuttal. Basically I’m going to give my plan in order of the roles each character will play.
Roles
Black Adam:
Black Adam is the tank and speed-blitz man for my team. He physically outmatches the opposition in every way (except Lobo’s healing factor). He can take hits from any attack Comet or Lobo can dish out, and return blows that mop the floor with Superman. However, his biggest use is his massive advantage in speed. Comet, while fast, is nowhere near the speeds Adam is capable of. He can dish out attacks hundreds of times faster than your team can return them. He has shown the ability to blitz beings like Superman and Captain Marvel who are already FTL. He even kept up with Flash for a while, and overwhelmed him in the end with a combination of magic-enhanced attacks. His only real low showings in the speed department are against Jay Garrick (he frequently has trouble catching Garrick, but always prevails in the end), and Garrick is still leagues faster than anyone on the opposing team. Basically Adam will do every thing he can to do as much damage as fast as possible. First he focuses his full barrage on Dr Occult, who is most likely to neutralize Fate and Alan. Occult will no doubt have TP shields up courtesy of Captain Comet. However, his TP will already have to be spread thin if he hopes to shield himself and the team. Once Adam is through the shield, he’ll rip Occult into a billion pieces. Occult has already failed to stop Adam before, so there is no reason the disk will beat him now (Fate has also broken the power of the disk but that is irrelevant). Once occult is gone Adam will break through to kill Dox, Argus, and Buddy (probably Buddy first). If he doesn't have time he’ll dump your team on the other side of the moon and return to the start. Once this key role of killing Occult and Buddy is done, your team is powerless against the wonders of Fate and Alan. From here Adam basically goes around sweeping Lobo up and dumping him from their side of the moon while my team eliminates the others (Lobo will likely be the hardest to kill). Adam can easily break the TP shields as he has shattered Alan Scott’s most powerful shields with ease (and Lantern shields were stated to be more durable than those Comet can create). Basically from here Adam becomes a wild card of blitzing destruction.
Dr Fate:
Fate is probably the most important part of the plan. He’s just too versatile and powerful when allowed to unleash. With Occult and Baker dead before your team can react, and any survivors of the original blitz dumped as far away as possible Fate gets to work. First he turns my team invisible and turns himself and Alan intangible. From here they can unleash the full forces of magic upon the battle field without risking Comet getting a lucky shot in. Fate uses his own TP to weaken the fields Comet puts around himself and his teammates. From here he conjures up Force-Fields to protect my non-intangible team members. He also sets up a TP link so we can reliably communicate. From here the role of Fate is pretty simple. Just unleash as much powerful magical attacks on Lobo and Comet as possible. Eventually Comet inevitably falls, and then Fate traps Lobo within a field that he combines with Alan’s shield to contain Lobo indefinitely. Fate has created shields that can hold beings who one-shotted Superman-level characters, so holding Lobo with Alan shouldn't be much of an issue. I could probably go on and on with ways for Fate to help out but in the end these are probably his best options.
Alan Scott:
Alan’s purpose is basically to act as an extension to the already highly capable power of Fate. He pretty much just enhances any shields Fate puts up, and unleashes the full power of the ring on the opposition. One unique power of Alan’s is to enhance his strength and speed through the ring. The main thing this will help with is speed. If Alan can think up constructs faster, that only means more damage to your team. Alan will use accelerated thinking to unleash a hail of constructs that have pushed around powerhouses from Superman to Captain Marvel. These constructs can work to take out Comet and restrain Lobo from getting into the fight.
Ragman/Human Bomb
I group these two together because they are the wild cards on my team. They will simply wreak havoc in any way they can. Both will be fitted with powerful shields courtesy of Fate and Alan. Franklin’s (Human Bomb’s) shield will be designed to be easily manipulated by Alan. The enhanced reaction Alan will have in combination with the TP link will allow Alan to recede the force-field easily when Franklin is about to hit. Rory’s shield will be the most durable shield of all, because he plays a critical role in the last part of the battle. His shield should take blows from Comet and Lobo long enough for him to teleport away. These two work as a coalition force for most of the Battle. They are Tp’d about were to find various opponents and warned when being approached. Rory pretty much carries Franklin throughout the battlefield. Rory mostly stays back and acts as east transportation for the real damager of the two, Franklin. Rory teleports them in long enough to allow Franklin some good damage, then ports out. His enhanced reaction and senses should allow him two avoid being outmatched by stronger opponents. Franklin can deal serious damage. It is said a drop of his sweat could level Manhattan, and punches can obliterate multiple city blocks. First the team will target blitz survivors (like Argus and Dox). They should get through the TP shields after a few hits. From here they contribute to helping the rest of the team take down Comet for good. They try to avoid Lobo, and Adam keeps him out of the fight. Once everyone but Lobo is out, and Lobo himself is restrained by the combined power of Fate and Alan, Ragman comes in. Lobo is probably one of the five worst people in the universe, so sinning isn't a question. Rory can absorb opponents who his cloak deems “truly evil” into his cloak to become a rag once they are defeated (or restrained). The biggest issue would be that Rory often has trouble absorbing the souls of powerful beings like Lobo without it taking a long time and draining nearly all of Rory’s life force. However, many times beings of higher magical power have been able to channel Rory’s power to a greater scale. Fate himself has done this a couple times. A boosted Rory should be able to absorb the soul of Lobo after a couple minutes or so. With Lobo neutralized and the rest dead, this becomes a solid win in favor of my team.
This is my basic plan for now. I guess I’ll edit it as you make further arguments.
The first major problem in this plan is the TP link that sets everything up. While Comet has shown powerful TP feats, he has never been able to fully transmit massive amounts of information by TP alone
Very Wrong, for three reasons.
It's not a LOT of information he has to transmit. Dox is already intimately aware of everything Lobo and Comet can do as they work for him.All he has to let Dox know is what they are capable of. HMMM, Argus has a healing factor, enhanced stats, vision that sees everything, and a shadow meld, Occult can dimensionally travel, has TP, TK, Illusions, can become invisible, and has a disk that can reflect any energy and counter any magic. So really the only tricky one is Animal man. I just typed what little information he has to pass in 20 seconds (a lot slower than TP would be)
Comet has transmitted a LOT of information telepathically. He has completely read the entirety of the Secret Society of Super villains ( a group at the time of 7) to know vastly more than I'm asking here about more characters (more than double in fact). He also completely read Chronos' life and much more.
I have two others on my team capable of filling the gap if it were a problem (Occult and Animal Man)
Animal Man will never be able to transmit the amount of information needed to let Dox fully understand these powers. There is no way this transaction will be under a minute long (I doubt even 15 minutes will be enough).
Considering he read Chronos and the SSoSV of a lot more information in less time, not even an issue. he only has to read 5 years of Buddy's life for the pertinent things. Fact once he has linked to Occult he will know it all in less than a second because occult knows pretty much everything he wants to about anyone he comes into contact with. So really All Comet has to do is read Occult and he'll know what he needs in bullet point.
That in case in you didn't pick up on it is Occult knowing more about a man the Trenchcoat brigade encountered than even the nigh omnipresent/Omniscient Phantom Stranger. I could go on to show scans of Occult Putting Alan Scot in his place by saying to take care because if someone like him (Occult) wanted to know the skeletons in his closet he would, actually I will
My knowing everything I need to in no time at all is not at issue and quite easily proven.
Secondly, what leads you to believe that Animal Man even understands his powers to the degree that would be necessary for your plan. He could only do that with help from G’wanna Beast, and even then he barely merged simple basic human DNA (Keep in mind working with the DNA of multiple meta-humans and Aliens will be thousands of times harder than the normal human DNA of only two beings)
Firstly what he did was incredibly complex. Secondly he wasn't aided by Bwanna Beast at all, they were fighting and animal man used his power. At the time Animal man could only use powers from the red of beings close to him. He eventually evolved to be able to use any animal anywhere in the universe.
Gallery
So lets get this straight with no knowledge of what to do he used Bwanna Beast's power (after he had defeated him with his own TP i might add) to do far more complex genetic tinkering than Bwanna Beast had ever done himself. In this scenario once he merges all DNA into one character ( a vaslty more simple act than he has done with the power) it will be Dox's far more advanced brain and genetics knowledge enhanced to the point of a further 1000,000 years evolution using Buddy's knowledge of the ability to take it the further steps I need to accomplish what i said.
Put simply Buddy actually accomplished pretty much what i need unaided in a moment.
There is no evidence that Animal Man can even fully merge DNA to the point of creating Muti-cellular higher functioning lifeforms.
Yeah there is, it's in the scans I just loaded. he created a more complex super powerful defense cells from the polymorphs and macromorphages in his blood. If you had read my first round battle you would have already seen the evidence to show this.
I get that Dox is a genius of geniuses but this seems a little far fetched given that Dox has never worked with the DNA of meta-humans excluding Kryptonians
Dox works with almost every single race in the universe at some point. he has analysed and created counters for every single power of every single "meta-Human" in his police force. He was the guy who removed Lobo's power to duplicate from every drop of blood spilled by playing with his DNA. he was the guy who worked out a way to counter Phantom Girl's power to become intangible. He was the guy who could make a Durlan scream in agony because he could freeze them in a form that they couldn't shift out of with DNA alteration. He created the super powered body of Pulsar Stargrave with vast energy manipulation powers. In In a series where Eclipso had collected many shards of the heart of darkness and has possessed many of Earth's heroes, it was Dox who worked out a way to counter many of their powers.
I suggest next time you should do a little research before you make such claims because seriously i can probably flood this thread with dozens of scans of Dox working on the DNA of super powered characters in the DCU. I picked him specifically for this strategy for a reason. there are DCU genius' greater than him but not in genetics.
What your also forgetting is all this takes part AFTER Buddy has done the simple bit of merging all my team into one guy as per the simple every day way Bwanna beast uses the ability. The evolution takes place because once this is done that's what Comet's part of the DNA will do WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT OR EFFORT as per the way the power works. It only ever takes Bwanna beast a panel to do this so we're talking two or three minutes into my 15. Since at this point the brain capability of Dox is further advanced what he is capable of is vastly more than what he can do in canon. I didn't quote the rest of that parragraph to answer your questions but this pretty much does.
I will quote this.
original Braniac (who was smarter than Dox)
Original Brainiac wasn't superior to Dox in Genetics, in overall intellect yes but not that.
By the time Dox does any of the things I said (after Buddy has merged him and he evolves) he will be a superior intellect to Brainac 13 or Brainaic 417. So vastly above his father in every regard.
The third major issue comes if (it’s very unlikely the plan makes it this far given the situation) Dox does succeed in the initial genetic splicing. As is the very nature of DNA is domination through natural selection this fight will mostly occur at the genetic level.......................................
Comet already survived such a transformation to take him from a normal human level to physically near a Kryptonian with vast mental powers. There is canon for the likes of Superman 1 million and Dox's descendants. Besides which if the DNA just keeps getting superior, all you've managed to prove is that I become even better than I said. Not a great argument to make.
Ok, so assuming somehow all this works, the effects just don’t add up. Each individual strain of DNA takes a completely separate path of evolution.
Let me stop you right there, it's canon within the DCU that progeny of meta humans who basically merge all the DNA of the parents, and that it is passed down. Jessie Quick has her fathers speed and mothers enhanced strength etc. Damage pools the abilities of a LOT of mixed DNA. Superman 1 million has all the powers of superman amped by a massive degree and combines the abilities of a 5th dimensional being along the way. I could proved at least another 200 canon examples in comics that just make this whole argument a wash.
However, just too much of this plan is based on immaterial evidence and assumption.
Unfortunately for you none of it was. I specifically chose these characters to build this scenario with because I knew I had every bit of evidence i needed to prove it was completely and utterly possible.
Black Adam ...... However, his biggest use is his massive advantage in speed.
Hate to break it to you but BA doesn't have a speed advantage over most of my team at all. In fact he's on the wrong side of the speed equation.
Gallery
That's two separate canon instances of BA not being able to keep up with Jay Garrick who can't go light speed. Captain marvel is faster than BA ( Billy has the speed of Mercury, Teth the speed of Huru), and Superman is faster than Cap. Both proven on panel countless times. BA is much stronger and more Durable than Billy but not fast.
Gallery
First we see Comet catching Sinestro who can match speeds with GLs (who travel faster than light) Sinestro had a head start so even better. We can see that mars is visible in the distance like the Moon would be from earth and light takes 20 minutes to reach earth from mars so however you brake it down, faster than light (confirmed by a statement that he's fast as Flash)
The we see Occult surprise Superman with the speed of his dimensional travel, followed by Occult teleporting out of a room to teach fate how to dimensionally travel and returning by the time his coffee cup (he was holding) hits the ground. Add the fact that he has precog, and speed wont be your friend.
The we see Animal man matching a weakened Flash.
Finally Lobo blitzing Superman (while he was drunk I might add) and Superman unable to react.
So we have 2 of dozens of canon proof that BA is no where near light speed, against three of my team above that and one simply moves in time (like Zoom). Only ones on my team you could Blitz are Argus and Dox.
His only real low showings in the speed department are against Jay Garrick
Let's assess that shall we
Gallery
First one is getting one laid on him by Captain Marvel. Everyone might think that this isn't so bad a feat, but in this issue both Mary Marvel and Cap Jnr are powered up, so Cap is at 1/3 power. Do you want to see the number of times BA can't dodge 1/3 power Billy?? Do I need to show the scan where Billy doing something with Wally has to use "ALL the speed of Mercury" to Keep up and where Wally states he was keeping it just UNDER light speed???
Then we see BA not being able to dodge earth Sand throws at him (how fast can that be), dodge lightning (which moves at about 1/3 the speed of light), or dodge or tag Star girl.
Dude BA's speed feats are utter garbage. The one and ONLY showing of him traveling FTL was in an early issue of Power of Shazam when he and Cap first fought. Cap was actually shocked when he realized they were traveling FTL. he then realized they were headed toward the Rock of eternity (which they all travel almost instantly to).
Given the fact that Occult has precog and danger sense. Argus can see actions about to occur (and a hell of a lot more). Dox has created time traps that could catch even the likes of Wave Rider who can travel faster than time so well beyond anything your team has to offer. your whole blitz strategy is a bust. If BA even attempted it Occult creates a dimensional portal and has said blitz aimed straight at Dr fate or Alan's head before BA has any chance to react.
Given the fact that Occult will know this is what you'll do in prep, he could have created the portal before you even start to move.
Instead of taking out half my team (which you never had a chance of even if my strategy didn't work), you just took out one of your other big hitters with another.
Dr Fate: He’s just too versatile and powerful when allowed to unleash.
See unfortunately you have Modern fate. Not sure if that means Nu52 Ben-Hassin (if so bad for you, because his feats are NOT good thus far), or Kent V. Bottom Line, Kent V is also pretty much a novice who lucks his way through a lot. With the disk of the seven that undoes magic, luck will not be on his side. The Helm allows him to know what to do to use the magic, Occult's disk can cut that off and your skrewed.
Alan’s purpose is basically to act as an extension to the already highly capable power of Fate. He pretty much just enhances any shields Fate puts up, and unleashes the full power of the ring on the opposition.
Go right ahead and unleash. It will only be used by my team to take Alan down himself.
Gallery
Without even knowing what the energy was Occult turned it back on the one attacking him with it. It happens for any energy but especially magic. Anny attack either Fate or Alan makes can be countered by Occult by his disk. Said attacks will basically only harm you.
Ragman/Human Bomb
Since basically the magic shields created to protect these guys wont exist seconds into the battle they will be destroyed before they get to do anything my the deflected magic attacks of Fate or Alan. Frankly they can be BFR'd or simply mind raped, blitzed etc etc. Not to mention neither has sufficient destructive power to do anything to most of my team. certainly not the amalgamated all knowing and vastly pwoerful character they will be facing.
Summary
BA wont be able to Blitz anything because his speed is inferior to half of my team list and vastly inferior to an any amalgam of all of them.
His great ability to take hits from Comet or Lobo is misconceived as Lobo has done greater damage to a full powered Cap than BA and to Superman. Comet has also matched an amped Superman. Since here even if I can't further evolve my powers the simply combination gives me the stacked abilities of three characters who could take hits from him ( Lobo, Comet, Animal man) with the added regeneration of Argus (who has grown back gouged out eyes). capped off with the mystic shields of Occult's disk, the ability to become intangible, invisible, and dimensionally travel. He really wont do much
Both fate and Alan are completely countered by Occult's disk. There is a reason why to capture Occult Wotan (an enemy of both of them) used science and a trap. His magic that is on par with the more powerful classic fate wasn't enough to go up against occult head on.
The three power houses of my adversaries team are pretty easily dealt with and that leaves Ragman and human Bomb. Since I can so easily tak out Dr fate, Alan Scot, and Black Adam, these two aren't even a blip on my radar.
Ok. I think you misunderstood much of my original argument, and underestimated my team (perhaps also overestimating your in the process) in the second. In this post I’m going to address each of your points as straight-to-the-point as possible, as I just dont have much time right now. I kind of hoped you would take longer to sort through my posts, but I guess you’re fast at this sort of thing.
I’m going to go ahead and concede on the point of the TP link failing. I just don’t have time to go looking for scans of Comet and Occult. Also the scan you posted for Occult looks pretty solid. In the long run however, this point will not matter as your plan cannot work.
I didn't mean to convey that I thought that Buddy’s feat of combining those cells into a hybrid wasn't impressive, but it’s just not going to be enough. He was basically utilizing heterozygous cells to create a new cell of altered genome-makeup. What he did in that scan was only changing at most one chromosomes (I doubt it even altered any). This will not even be close to the amount requires to fuse this amount of beings with abilities and compositions so different from one-another. Buddy didn't even combine two people (much less combine 6) in that scan, but rather cells themselves. While this is a tremendously impressive ability, it doesn't even approach the scale of power needed to fulfill your plan. In terms of genetic splicing I see it as B’wanna Beast being more powerful and faster in his combination, while Baker is like a precise instrument. He makes tiny changes with incredible accuracy to fulfill a larger overall purpose. What your team would need is a combination of both these attributes plus a significant power boost. Animal Man just doesn't have the amount of skill necessary to combine these beings. That feat that everything is based on doesn't apply to your need as much as you think it does. The only real overlap is that both involve blood cells, but this is a fraction of what is needed to pull of a degree of splicing. Even B’wanna beast has said himself that meta-genes are impossible to utilize genetic alteration on. This is because they are already unstable and unpredictable.
Ok. On the Dox thing you are largely correct. If all those things are true, then he very well may be better than I originally gave him credit for. To be fair though, it’s pretty hard to research Dox. I haven’t read very much about him and the internet has virtually nothing on him. However, this is irrelevant in the end because he just cant work with all these variables. The events you described were all after being heavily prepped, and the only one that really applies is the part involving Lobo. Dox still doesn't truly understand the origin of Comet’s powers, as he himself has stated. You can’t expect to literally remake someone from scratch without being absolutely sure about the makeup. The healing control is very impressive, but that can be regulated by a single altered genome. Dox has to do a lot more than that to actually rewrite Lobo’s genetic code. Especially when the Lobo DNA itself will by nature be destroying any other DNA even involved. This plan really is destined to fail without utilizing stable DNA. Three of the beings involved in this DNA splicing have completely unstable chromosomes. My original post goes into further detail on this issue in your plan.
I’ve already addressed why Animal Man’s powers can’t accomplish what you need. I’m willing to further elaborate but it’ll basically just be repeating the basic fact over and over again.
Dox may be superior to Braniac, but that won’t make a difference in the end. He wont evolve for the reasons I’ve previously stated, so it doesn't matter if he becomes superior to any other Braniac.
Comet survived and was enhanced by the evolution because he is human, so that particular evolutionary state altered him. I’m basically saying that it’s not going to effect the alien DNA because they have different occurrences that will determine their respective evolution. It’s not like all organisms have set existence. Natural Selection will determine their respective enhancements. Therefore no-one but Argus (who is still a maybe) will be affected by the change in evolution. Keep in mind that the alien enhancements that Buddy has aren't going to last long if he evolves prematurely. They will be seen as hostile and quickly metabolized. Basically this means that Comet’s evolution doesn't help your team at all. Superman 1 million evolved naturally, not by Comet’s accelerated genetic alteration. I’m not really sure what you were trying to say with Superman 1 million, but he is irrelevant. I don't even know were you are getting the DNA getting better from. If you’re referring to natural selection that will take billions of years to come into play, so it does not make a difference.
This hereditary chain you’re referring to is largely a factor in natural selection. The direct instances you are referring to such as Jessie Quick are all results of hereditary power-translation. Both the speed force (which is what she got from her father) and the meta-gene (which she got from her mother) are hereditary. Black Canary had the powers of her mother, because her power is a result of the meta-gene (Basically DC version of the X-gene). This is not how it works when dealing with various Alien species of separate levels of function. It has already been stated that Czarnians cannot reproduce with other species because of the nature of their DNA. This is exactly what I’ve been trying to explain. Hereditary reproduction is not something that would work in favor of your team. The only one of your characters who can even pass on his powers to a son is Animal Man. From here Comet’s powers still won’t help so you just end up with plain Animal Man regardless. Even if hereditary reproduction did support your idea (which it in no way does) that is not really anything like genetic splicing. I can think of many examples of how they’re different of the top of my head. Rather than explain the science of it I’m going to use a comic example. When Lois Lane and Superman had a son the Kryptonian DNA of Superman completely burned through the human DNA of Lois. His son was basically a full blood Kryptonian, which is exactly why you can’t just throw together various alien DNA and expect to get a perfect amalgam. If it did then Superman’s son would have been like Super-boy rather than a complete Kryptonian. If you still don't get what I’m trying to say I’m fine with elaborating so just say the word. I believe that this also covers your point about Superman 1 Million. Basically this argument is undoubtably NOT a wash. In fact it is perhaps the greatest testament to why your plan doesn't really work.
I think that by now there shouldn't be any doubt that this plan will fail. This is only the tip of the iceberg and I can think of many more ways the plan wouldn't work, but all of them are irrelevant. Even so, many of my original points still stand. That being said, I’d like to once again say that this was a cool way to create a team. I can see why you are considered a Hall of Fame debater. So now that I believe your plan has been debunked I’ll address the remaining battle without the amalgam.
Post-Amalgam Rebuttal:
While you are (at least from what I have heard) an expert on Black Adam, I believe you are vastly underestimating his speed. You are also overestimating the speed of your team (especially Lobo). Black Adam is undoubtably the fastest character involved in this battle (Perhaps except for Comet). While he has some low end feats, so does everyone. I could spent weeks posting all the times Superman has been tagged by a brute who lands a lucky shot. This is because often the person superior in the speed underestimate those who are weaker. Most of the scans you posted were because Adam didn't really try to evade their hits. Many of the people who tagged him weren't really ever a threat to him, so he didn't try to evade them. The bottom line is that Adam is FTL. This means he should have no trouble blitzing anyone but Comet (I still doubt that Comet is faster but I see how his argument can be made). He has so many feats of FTL speeds that they drastically outweigh those that put him under the mark. As for Captain Marvel being at 1/3 power, that wasn't how it worked back then. He was just as fast when both Mary and Freddy were powered up as he was when he was solo. Garrick, contrary to popular belief, does have FTL feats, so don't write him of because of his failure against Garrick. Actually, Billy has been said to have the slight advantage over Superman in speed, and Cap himself has stated on multiple occasions his difficulty in keeping up with BA. I’m not really much of a scan person but I will describe some of his more impressive feats of speed.
Blitzes the JSA near effortlessly twice. This team included Alan Scott (who in Sentinel form has reaction time well above FTL), Power-girl (Another FTL character), and Adam Smasher. If he can blitz two FTL characters without much effort, and then do it again, I think it’s fair to call BA faster than light.
He has blitzed Alan (who is FTL) many times
During WW3 he flies circles around Hal, Diana, and Clark (All FTL) simultaneously
During WW3 he basically blitzes half the DC Earth including Power-girl (FTL), Jay Garrick (FTL), multiple Lanterns (All FTL). He out-speeds at least 5 FTL characters while monologging about how he has always held back against the JSA (Likely accounting for his low-showings against Jay Garrick). Also note that he doesn't take any real damage this entire fight and he is still keeping up with various other top tier heroes (including Firestorm, Wonder-girl, Dr Light, STRIPE, Steel, WW, Jessie Quick, Hour-man, and many more). If he can tag all these heroes without even truly exerting himself, his speed feats are well above those of both Superman and Captain Marvel.
Defeats Superman (FTL) with various super-speed blows to the face.
Has on too many occasions to count blitzed Captain Marvel with ease.
Blitzes Diana (FTL) and levels her in a single blow.
Lands many hits on Martian Manhunter (Who is considered faster than Superman himself), and seems to have the upper hand. Granted, Manhunter wasn't showing many signs of defeat until trying to TP Adam out.
I think these feats should be sufficient evidence of Adam’s dominance in the speed department. I’d also be happy to post scans if you want them (I just don’t really know the ins and outs of scan posting as of now). At the very least Adam has the undoubtable advantage over anyone but Comet, whose speed feats still pail in comparison to Adam’s. He is not “utter garbage” as is evidence by the above feats. As for the later feats, do you have any idea how many instances Comet has been tagged by beings of average speed? His track record in speed is vastly inferior to Adam’s in speed, especially if going by low-showings (believe me when I say Comet has many in speed). However, as I said before, these should never be the deciding factors when determining the speed of a super-human who has to be nerved from time to time in order to progress the story. So now that I hope you see BA is fully capable of a blitz, I’ll address your anti-blitz strategies
Comet: I’ll admit this dude is fast, which is why he’s going to be the largest threat on your team (after Occult is neutralized). BA is not going to blitz him, but rather make space between my team and Comet. Once Fate and Alan are in the three can take him out with their combined vast power output. However, for the sake of argument, I do think BA is faster than Comet (Not that it really matters to the plan). The first scan really isn't that special. BA has blitzed so many lanterns I’ve lost count. He’s blitzed Alan at least 5 times, and on one occasion blitzed 3 lanterns simultaneously. both these feats trump that one. I believe the second is hyperbole, but regardless, that is travel speed. The only thing that matter here is combat speed, which is were Comet can be lacking.
Occult: While these feats are nice for transport, they’re not going to be of any use in a blitz attack. He’s still not reacting at super-speed which is the only real way to fend off a blitz. His pregog is impressive, but nothing BA can’t work around. He can know what will happen all he wants and still not prevent it (plus his pergola isn't usually very specific from what I’ve read about him). Addressing your later post about using a portal for defense. What is to prevent BA from simply flying around the portal? Even if he surrounds himself in them BA can just fly through the moon and take him from the bottom. Worst case scenario he punches the moon to pieces, then rips Occult’s head off. Bottom line is, Occult isn’t getting out of the initial attack alive. What makes Adam dangerous isn't so much travel speed as his in-battle reaction speed (as shown by him engaging in a fight with multiple FTL characters at the same time).
Animal Man: Ok, now this feat is blown a little out of proportion. First off, it states Flash was not even half as fast as he used to be, meaning he falls to below Superman-level. BA has little trouble keeping up with Superman and other beings far faster than less than half of Flash. Honestly, I could easily make an argument for Jay Garrick being faster than New 52 Flash (He really doesn't have many Pre-52 Flash caliber feats as of now). I don’t think rot world Flash would be able to outrace Adam. Secondly, this is once again a feat of travel speed rather than reaction speed. Travel speed isn't doing Baker any good when forced to react to a blitz. He still reacts at the same speed as he would without the animal amps. This means that Baker really has no shot at surviving a blitz. Even if he somehow does (Which he won’t), he’s not sustaining that speed longer than a couple seconds. He’ll avoid an initial blitz only to perish in a second, third, or forth lap around the moon. However, the deciding factor is the lack of reaction speed feats that Buddy has. Once again, I don't see him being much trouble to take out in the initial blitz.
Lobo: That scan really doesn't show much. I would put that up to being an instance where Clark fails to utilize his speed, as he does so often. Don’t get me wrong, I think Lobo is a huge threat (Ragman is the only way my team eventually takes him out, and that is via soul steal). However, speed isn't really his department as he has had beings of normal reaction time and speed dodge his blows (people like Adam Strange). Lobo is dominant force in durability, strength, and healing, but speed really isn't his thing. Lobo’s motorbike often needs to be used just for him to navigate through cities. If he was truly FTL he could just run anywhere on the planet within a second (he would also be an 8 point character as well). The scan begins with Superman in headlock, so speed really isn't implied anywhere in that battle. Anyway, Lobo isn't getting blitzed so it doesn't really matter. Black Adam will simply speed dump him way fro the field to prevent Notable damage. If needed Adam will kick Lobo from the moon or shatter Lobo’s side of the moon as to keep him from interfering.
Argus: Knowing what Adam does helps Argus in no conceivable way. Adam tears him into a billion pieces. Argus gets blitzed if Adam has time, but if not he will be sparred, then killed at a later time by any member of my team who encounters him.
Vril Dox: Basically the same deal as Argus. His time trap was with prep and gear. Even if he did have it BA doesn't really travel through time so it would be useless anyway.
Version of Dr Fate: I was thinking I would use V Nelson. it was either him or Hector Hall, and I just went with V Nelson. Either one is fully capable of enacting on this plan though, so it really doesn't matter. Occult will be dead anyway so both have full magical capabilities.
Alan Scott: For reasons already stated, Occult will be dead so this doesn't matter anyway.
Ragman/Human Bomb: I would argue that both can do some serious damage to your team. At the very least Franklin will land some devastating hits. If all else fails they go kamikaze and Ragman begins slicing Bomb’s limbs off with his cape. He then teleports over and away from your team dropping various parts of Franklin onto your team. If a drop of Bomb’s sweat can level Manhattan imagine what pints of his blood will do. At the very least this kills everyone but Lobo and Comet (who will be severely injured). Anyway, that scenario is not going to happen because Occult will die, so the shields will be up. Ragman is also integral as he will be the method of disposing Lobo for good.
I believe I have addressed all your prominent points. If you need anything such as scans (Although I still don’t know how to do these), explanations, ect. just ask. Hopefully this time it will be longer before you respond. It takes me like 45 minutes just to type all this up.
I've just worked an 11 hour day on a Sunday and am dead tired, so this wont be as thorough as a reply as I would normally give (with quotes etc)
1. Your argument to try and apply real worked science and genetics is a failed one because the canon of the comics shows it is possible. Bwanna beast's power is the ability to merge creatures into a hybrid form that has the combined and merged abilities of all those involved.You talk about what Buddy can do and what Bwanna beast could do as if it were different, it's not. Buddy could and can use Bwanna beasts power EXACTLY as he did.
Gallery
First one is an example of how Buddy had become completely BB's equal and was stalemating him with his own TP power. second one he clearly states he could sue BB'sower to MERGE CREATURES INTO A SUPER HYBRID FORM, third one is a cap off back when in issue 50 of his run he was integral in creating life in a whole universe.
OH no, there is no way that he could do the limited thing I'm suggesting here. He can create life on a universal scale with two other less red linked allies but can't merge 6 guys into one when we have canon proof that is exactly one of the powers in the pool he can draw on.
In this instance that would mean
The physicals of Lobo and Argus- let's say for the sake of argument Argus' physicals are redundant under your real world science analogy, that still leaves lobo
The mental capacity of Dox
The TP, and TK of Occult (the rest of his powers are dependant on his disk)
The genetic evolution of Comet. this is the be and end all of his power. When he first appeared as a hero it was only with his mental powers. When Overmind (an enemy of Superman) stole these his body instantly evolved to be a physical match for Superman (he had apparently mentally prevented this part of his evolution)
Argus' vision and shadow meld
Animal mans ability to draw on the red, which was made a part of him genetically when he was "genamorphically" linked to it.
End result since the base body is hundreds of thousands of times stronger than the base body that Comet had that evolved into Superman's equal Lobo's body is vastly stronger than BA.
Since Dox was already a genius vastly greater than Cap Comet the fact that he became a genius makes Dox vastly greater.
The base body of Comet that had no TP and TK evolved into a very powerful mentalist so powerful that he could match and defeat green Lanterns with their own power, starting off with TP/TK makes this greater by an order of magnitude.
Argus' vision allows him to see the entire electromagnetic spectrum, future events, see through deception and how things go together and see portents of things in the framework of the universe. plus the ability to meld with the shadows and become invisible - even un-evolved that's a great boon.
And Animal mans genetic link to the red courtesy of the aliens playing with his DNA. This likely wont hbe enhanced but doesn't need to be.
even if we assume that Comet's evolution isn't what would be gained (and honestly it isn't what Dox would be expecting for the reasons you have stated- he'd be expecting what I'm about to suggest), that would simply mean
strength of Lobo+ Comet+ Argus
Durability/Regeneration of Lobo+ Comet + Argus
Speed of Comet+ Lobo+ Argus
vision of argus
TP/TK Occult + Comet
Brain of Dox + Comet +Occult
Bottom line, the canon of comics allows me to do it with this character, and even if we apply real world sciences instead of the pseudo comic science that is part of the actual canon, your screwed.
You can say it doesn't work for scientific reasons as much as you like, but the fact that is has ON PAGE, in canon comics makes your argument nonexistent (time to take a different tact- denial simply wont cut it)
BTW I'd like to point out, I don't have a single meta-gene in my mix. Lobo is of the race Czarnian, Dox is Coluan, Comet is a Mutant, Occult is a normal human with a psychic gift (the reason he was chosen by the seven), and Argus was altered by interaction with a parasite into his bloodstream in Bloodlines, Buddy was morphogenically altered by aliens. Saying things wont work because of meta genes is a pretty poor argument when I have NONE to cause a problem (not even on in the whole shebang).
I'd also like to point out another MAJOR fallacy in your argument. Throwing up natural selection in the face of spontaneous evolutions is not a factor. Natural selection cannot occur in cells where no chance exists for an event to decide which is the stronger characteristic to survive. This is why Comet develops ALL his attributes and not just those that would be decided to be of value by survival of the fittest. In a very real sense the physical attributes become less likely to allow survival against a more intelligent and mind powered race. the use of physical abilities would be a complete redundancy in a race that could use mind over matter. Yet Comet developed all. Yet more canon proof that your assumptions on why my plan wont work are simply completely and utterly unsupported by the canonized facts of comics. Yet another example would be the high evolutionary, New God's. Marvel's entire mutant population, I could list a few dozen more.
So Black Adam is FTL is he?? let's dispell that BS once and for all right now.
BA is so often incorrectly compared to Captain Marvel as his complete and utter equal in every respect. This of course isn't the case, Cap has the distinct speed advantage having the speed of Mercury while BA has the speed of Heru (sorry typo in last post).
In this scan we see that it takes ALL the speed of Mercury to match Flash when he is "keeping it JUST this side of light speed". Cap has been able to go close to matching BA in speed even when either Mary or Freddy are powered up (which means at half power).BA has ONLY ever been faster than Cap when all three marvel's are powered up
So now we've addressed Cap's stated "inability to Keep up with BA". Try and find a single time of him having such a problem when Cap is the only one of the marvel family powered up???
So Cap is Under light speed at full power, and BA is only faster than him when he's at a 1/3 of that. Every other fight they have had where either Mary or Freddy are powered but not both BA's speed advantage is negligible at best.
I can show many other scans that verify. like when cap told NASA that he would need an assist to get to Venus because it would take him quite a while to do it under his own power. It only takes light between 3 to 13 minutes to reach earth from Venus. If he was FTL it wouldn't take long at all. Or I could show any of a few dozen fights where BA only JUST keeps ahead of Cap while Mary or Billy are elsewhere. I can also show more than a few of Cap outright being faster than BA when neither is powered up. Context is always to be considered.
The big argument I always see is how BA traveled from the far side of the universe to Earth in 5000 years. This is a laugh because
It's no longer canon anyway.
Based on Universal expansion (a fact confirmed in LoSH to be true even in DCU, it's not that far to travel
I know when you go to wikis you'll see it stated that it's a distance of 156 billion light years. Well here's the truth. From earth to the edge of the universe now is 46 billion light years. The universe however expands, based on it's current rate (which isn't a viable way to calculate- I'll cover soon) that expansion over the last 4500 years (I'm allowing for BA to have come from the end of the Egyptian empire) would be 7,029,374,400,000 km per megaparsec (which 3.08567758 × 1022 area).
The fact that it took him that long with the universe actually expanding our past him at such a rate and having started (using the fasle calculation we can) 21,088,123,200,000 × 1022 km closer that 46 billion light years away - is actually more proof of the fact that he ISN'T FTL (if it were still a canon feat).
The fact is if you do the math it makes the universe negative in size at that time. that's because the rate of the universes expansion is always increasing, and unfortunately it's rate hasn't been calculated until recently so we have no idea of the rate of increase to gauge it by, and no way to actually calculate the size of teh universe when Shazam sent him. In other words it's a non calculable feat that provides no evidence of anything.
I can supply canon proof all day long to show that BA is not Light speed (let alone FTL), so you might want to give up that argument. Just to deal with it now in case you decide to use this feat I'll address it now with FULL context.
So yes the one and ONLY feat of both exceeding light speed. Notice how Billy is actually shocked that he is?? Then he understands, it's because they are heading to the ROE (to which they have a link) which is linked to all space and time. Just in case you decide to throw up the first panel that you will likely find on any BA respect thread falsely representing the fact.
So go ahead and post all your feats of Superman getting tagged, It doesn't change the fact that there are hundreds of canon instances showing that BA isn't a light speeder.
Sorry dude I'm not underselling BA's speed I'm using the facts. he's between half and light speed (probably close to light) and not above. Animal man has achieved the same (which is what i showed in my scans because Flash at full speed is vastly over light speed, so matching one at half speed is close to light at the very least). Comet is vastly over light speed. Lobo fights characters at that speed regularly and deals easily. You don't and never did get any speed advantage, Hanging so much of your argument on an advantage you never gained was a mistake.
Some false claims you'll need to provide proof for (good luck with that)
When has BA blitzed JSA even once, I've put up scans of one of their only three fights and he wasn't blitzing then. The only JSAers he blitzed in WW3 were street level.
Dianna, Clark and Hal weren't even in WW3. It was while Clark was on New Krypton, Flash was missing, Hal was Too and Dianna was.
Show a single scan of Adam defeating Superman (which has never occurred), and better yet of him being faster. I can show a few dozen of Superman showing superior speed to BA like below
Show a single scan of ANYONE blitzed by BA in WW3. Seriously, standing there taking blows and knocking people down as they come at you after you know they're right on top of you, isn't a speed showing. I've had this debate with other BA fans quite a bit. the only showing of any speed in WW3 was when Jay was pounding the crap out of him with millions of blows and a swinging arm from BA sends him flying. a) Jay isn't FTL, b) swinging an arm around you in full swing has bloody good odds of hitting anyone in your arms reach no matter how fast they are.
Alan is capable of traveling at FTL speeds, he doesn't have that type of combat speed at all. Nor does he have that type of perception.
So there is that. Now to your (non) counter points.
There are two versions of Comet in pre 52 Continuity. I chose (and it specifies) Classic Comet. The instances of Comet getting tagged are the more recent version after his resurrection. This resurrection saw his physical powers vastly reduced and his mental ones vastly increased (plus he gained Teleportation). There was a reason I mentioned the feats of TP against the SSoSV and Chronos rather than his MUCH more powerful showings of mind linking every Green Lantern, Dark star and member of Legion. In trying to sell a case of mind linking 6 characters that would have been a pretty good sell, don't you think. Unfortunately it's not the version I selected. Suppose I could have chosen Composite like I did for animal man (that was specifically to have access to rot world flash speed, while still having access to Bwanna beast power AND the not needing to have the source of the red I was drawing near). The reason I didn't choose composite for Comet was it also lost me the nature of his evolution as power. So I'm sorry to say that almost (but not quite ) all feats of someone tagging Comet aren't the comet I have ;D
As for blitzing GL's the scan doesn't show him blitzing, it shows him quantifiable going at least a few times the speed of light. The pertinent part of the scan was the fact that he made it from earth to mars in moments. It takes light 22 minutes to do that, and he caught Sinestro who had a head start, because he tended to Hawkman AND had a conversation first.
reacting at Super speed isn't necessary for someone with precog to fend of a blitz attack when it's stated they went into a meditative state at the start of my 15 minutes prep. So essentially Occult knows about the blitz attack 15 minutes before it starts. You know what will fend off a blitz attack? Intangibility (one of Occult's powers courtesy of the disk of the seven). I would love to know How BA could harm Occult who can simply be intangible as soon as the battle starts (which means my amalgam character will be). His disk can also conveniently remove the magic that transforms BA making him Teth and destroyed in a heartbeat.
Argus has the power to become invisible in shadow. We have prep and know because of it with our precog what you will do. the ability to dimensionally travel to be in a shadow to make use of this (redundant since Occult also has invisibility so our amalgam will be both invisible and intangible when the battle starts). So how would BA even find him.
Dox (if it was just Dox) wears a force field (permanent fixture) that has withstood a point blank thermonuclear warhead, tanked the attacks of several Sinestro corps, Black lanterns and more.
Ragman and Human Bomb are just a non event. One is powered by a magical suit that had the souls of his father and friends transferred into it. The other is loaded with energy. Unfortunately for you Occult's dis is the perfect answer for all your magic (as it counters all magic and undoes any spell he wants it to), and sends all anergy abck to where it came from. essentially making any of your energy attacks harm you.
I dont have too much more to put up for my side so I might as well put up the lot and be done.
To put away the idea that BA could blitz Animal man once and for all, you need to consider reactions as well as speed.
here we see Buddy taking on the relative time rate of a fly. Depending on the fly they have life spans between hours and months. The fact that the scan states his reactions are only multiplied by ten shows it was one of the longer living ones he used here. Essentially this means that Buddy's perspective on things can allow him to react much better than BA since what is 80 years for Buddy (average human life span) comparatively is a few months for BA. He has time to spare to react.
Lets remember that I have prep and a character with the ability to know everything i need to know about the situation at hand. In fact Occult can watch things out of time.
Occult can watch a little of the start of the battle when in his meditative state and and my team will be prepared and ready to act. having done so the last part of our prep would be to make the necessary changes to make your blitz null and void.
As you can see by his teaching alone he has the power to become immaterial. I actually thought his ability to teleport relied on the disk but it seems I was in error there too (as he was given this AFTER he was taught to do so).
I can see an argument forming now that it wont be allowed because it's time manipulation. it's not, he can't change, alter or affect what he sees in time this way, it's simply how he can know so much. There is no way you can start battle without my being 100000% prepared for what ever you might come up with.
Simply put when the battle starts Buddy will have already taken on the relative time rate of a fly with only a few weeks life (at best) making my amalgams reactions as far above yours as Zoom is above Flash. Occult will have made the amalgam intangible (meaning you cant even touch it, to harm it), and used his disk to enhance the force field Dox always wears to make it even stronger and completely immune to magic. Argus will have made us invisible to you.
for any attack of yours to work it has to
find us
penetrate a protective field that is the combined strength of Occults disk of the seven (which is literally as powerful as the magic that is near it and you brought plenty of that for me to use), and Dox's force field
catch the combined speed of Comet + Animal man +Lobo
touch what is intangible
overcome the combined durability of Lobo+Comet+Animal man
get past the combined regeneration of Lobo + Argus + Animal man
Not really having odds in your favor are there.
My opponent's argument hinges on the fact that my amalgam wont work. Unfortunately for him I have provided on panel proof that Buddy can access the power to combine living organism's into a super hybrid form. Regardless of how he thinks it will work, I have the canon of the character to prove he can do exactly what I state.
Worst case scenario i don't get Comet's power evolving the other base stated merged as I thought. In which case I simply get the hybrized powers of all (or their powers stacked as I have just mentioned in this post). That just happens to be also proven by the canon of the power that Buddy uses. This being the case I don't need to stick with just Classic Comet and could have chosen composite which gives me even greater mental powers (maybe next round).
My opponent would have us believe that BA is FTL, which he isn't and I have provided plenty of canon proof to show that. he is just below light speed but so is Animal man (which is why I showed the feats of him matching Rotworld Flash- Flash is obviously well above light speed capable so at half power near Light speed isn't a stretch at all). Simple fact is, you picked BA as a 5 pointer. The thing about 5 pointers was they can't be FTL (that would make them 8 points). That was teh whole reason Comet for me was an 8 and the others weren't. Picking BA as a 5 pointer means by the tourney rules EVEN IF he were FTL, he isn't here.
My opponent made the mistake of coming into battle with a team of 5 characters of which 4 are magic based in power. Considering I have Occult who can counter all magic, this means even without an amalgamation of my team members Occult alone can solo you entire team. he can enter the battle intangible and use his disk to undo the magic that gives all of them their powers and leave Human Bomb alone to face my whole team.
@beatboks1: *Note: This post is only in regard to your post previous to the closer. I'll respond to that in a separate post. I wrote this up before your closer so it may seem a bit outdated.
Look man, I know you’re tired (I can relate), but this post really didn't address 5/6 of my Information. I’m just going to quickly address each of your points. Information that I’ve already been over will be bolded as to differentiate it. My first one of these posts was much longer, but it was apparently deleted (I am so mad right now). Because of this I don’t trust comic vine’s backup so I’m writing it out in a Word Document. This means I can’t quote so I’ll just give which of your arguments each bullet point is addressing at the beginning.
Science Doesn’t apply: Science does apply in comics to a limited degree. Everything in comics has some overall scientific explanation (except magic) that is combined with streaks of comic creativity. For example, the speed force lets Flash do things with SCIENCE that are normally impossible to a normal being. While Buddy and G’wanna’s powers do break many real world scientific laws, they are still bound by others. Evidence of this is everywhere in comics. Their powers are based on genetic splicing at a cellular level, meaning these feats you need are just not happening. Neither G’wanna Beast or Animal Man has ever created a hybrid with blood cells remotely this unstable. If beast struggles with slightly enhanced human DNA, he has no shot at Czarnian cells. I get that science cannot be anyone’s entire argument, but it also can’t be written off as a non-sequitur. There are canon instances that show Buddy’s lack of skill and power to do this very complicated act. Czarnian blood is (According to Braniac) “impossibly complex”, and no-one in the DCU even fully understands how Comet’s powers work. Describing this act as “simple” is really quite ridiculous.
Scans of Buddy: I’m not really sure how the first one applies. Could you elaborate on what that has to do with this (I haven't read that story so I’m not aware of the background info). As for the second I’ve already addressed that. What he does there is no light miles less complicated than what he would have to do in your plan. I didn't mean to convey that I thought that Buddy’s feat of combining those cells into a hybrid wasn't impressive, but it’s just not going to be enough. He was basically utilizing heterozygous cells to create a new cell of altered genome-makeup. What he did in that scan was only changing at most one chromosomes (I doubt it even altered any). This will not even be close to the amount requires to fuse this amount of beings with abilities and compositions so different from one-another. Buddy didn't even combine two people (much less combine 6) in that scan, but rather cells themselves. While this is a tremendously impressive ability, it doesn't even approach the scale of power needed to fulfill your plan. In terms of genetic splicing I see it as B’wanna Beast being more powerful and faster in his combination, while Baker is like a precise instrument. He makes tiny changes with incredible accuracy to fulfill a larger overall purpose. What your team would need is a combination of both these attributes plus a significant power boost. Animal Man just doesn't have the amount of skill necessary to combine these beings. That feat that everything is based on doesn't apply to your need as much as you think it does. The only real overlap is that both involve blood cells, but this is a fraction of what is needed to pull of a degree of splicing. Even B’wanna beast has said himself that meta-genes are impossible to utilize genetic alteration on. This is because they are already unstable and unpredictable. Here I explain that G’wanna Beast doesn't have the power to act on your plan either. It really doesn't matter if he does have G’wanna’s powers. Frankly, his most impressive in-context feat is still child’s play compared to what he needs to do in your plan. I’m not really sure what else I can say on this matter.
Hybrid Power: I’ve already given piles of evidence why this plan isn't working. Let me go ahead and say that if it did, my team would be dead. At most, if everything goes right you combine all your characters into a clone of either Animal Man or Comet (Depending on the manner in which you combine them). This amalgam just isn't going to work. Dox still doesn't truly understand the origin of Comet’s powers, as he himself has stated. You can’t expect to literally remake someone form scratch without being absolutely sure about the makeup. The healing control is very impressive, but that can be regulated by a single altered genome. Dox has to do a lot more than that to actually rewrite Lobo’s genetic code. Especially when the Lobo DNA itself will by nature be destroying any other DNA even involved. This plan really is destined to fail without utilizing stable DNA. Three of the beings involved in this DNA splicing have completely unstable chromosomes. My original post goes into further detail on this issue in your plan. Comet survived and was enhanced by the evolution because he is human, so that particular evolutionary state altered him. I’m basically saying that it’s not going to effect the alien DNA because they have different occurrences that will determine their respective evolution. It’s not like all organisms have set existence. Natural Selection will determine their respective enhancements. Therefore no-one but Argus (who is still a maybe) will be affected by the change in evolution. Keep in mind that the alien enhancements that Buddy has aren't going to last long if he evolves prematurely. They will be seen as hostile and quickly metabolized. Basically this means that Comet’s evolution doesn't help your team at all. Superman 1 million evolved naturally, not by Comet’s accelerated genetic alteration. I’m not really sure what you were trying to say with Superman 1 million, but he is irrelevant. I don't even know were you are getting the DNA getting better from. If you’re referring to natural selection that will take billions of years to come into play, so it does not make a difference. I would be screwed if it worked, which it will not. I just don’t think those scans provide any evidence of the power necessary to enact upon your plan.
Canon Evidence: I’m not sure what you think those scans are proving. My argument is NOT completely science. It is reinforced by many canon comic examples of why this plan is a failure in the end. My argument simply has far more PROVEN evidence than yours does. I’m not in denial. My argument is very substantial. I think this matter is going to become a “Yes it is” “No it isn’t” argument. I guess in the end whoever votes will decide which argument is more proven. If they do vote you, then good job. That means your argument is better.
Meta-genes: You completely misunderstood my point there. This is exactly what I’ve been trying to tell you. If your team was meta-human, then the plan might have worked. Them being examples of some of the holders of the most unstable genomes of anyone in the DCU is a reason why it will not.This hereditary chain you’re referring to is largely a factor in natural selection. The direct instances you are referring to such as Jessie Quick are all results of hereditary power-translation. Both the speed force (which is what she got from her father) and the meta-gene (which she got from her mother) are hereditary. Black Canary had the powers of her mother, because her power is a result of the meta-gene (Basically DC version of the X-gene). This is not how it works when dealing with various Alien species of separate levels of function. It has already been stated that Czarnians cannot reproduce with other species because of the nature of their DNA. This is exactly what I’ve been trying to explain. Hereditary reproduction is not something that would work in favor of your team. The only one of your characters who can even pass on his powers to a son is Animal Man. From here Comet’s powers still won’t help so you just end up with plain Animal Man regardless. Even if hereditary reproduction did support your idea (which it in no way does) that is not really anything like genetic splicing. I can think of many examples of how they’re different of the top of my head. Rather than explain the science of it I’m going to use a comic example. When Lois Lane and Superman the Kryptonian DNA of Superman completely burned through the human DNA of Lois. His son was basically a full blood Kryptonian, which is exactly why you can’t just throw together various alien DNA and expect to get a perfect amalgam. If it did then Superman’s son would have been like Super-boy rather than a complete Kryptonian. If you still don't get what I’m trying to say I’m fine with elaborating so just say the word. I believe that this also covers your point about Superman 1 Million. Basically this argument is undoubtably NOT a wash. In fact it is perhaps the greatest testament to why your plan doesn't really work. If you still doubt that your plan won’t work after all the canon and scientific evidence that goes against it, I’m not sure what else I can tell you. Lobo CANNOT be mixed with other species. This is completely canon. It’s what makes him the true last Czarnian. Animal Man and Argus will have their implants and modifications burned through by alien DNA that sees them as hostile pathogens. In summary I didn't say your plan wouldn't work because of meta-genes. I know that your team is lacking in meta-genes.
See the above for reasons why Comet’s evolution does not apply to other species. Evolution occurs because of the various conflicting states and origins of a species. It will NEVER be the same effect on species of separate origin. Evolution is not a force that can be predicted or controlled. Comet will have no effect on boosting the powers of your amalgam. That is proven by science as well as canonized evidence. Once again this is likely going to become a simple matter of “agree to disagree” because I doubt either of use will have our opinions swayed at this point.
Scans: Let me go ahead and say that I am using MODERN BA. Those scans are all from old times when the situations varied. Think WW3 era BA, not from the silver age or back before Flash (Basically the fastest character in comics) was not FTL. If you want to make the argument that Flash can’t go FTL as well, good luck with that. Back when those comics were made Nobody was FTL, even Flash himself. Those scans are useless in the long run Please don’t argue that they aren’t). Those second scans are even older than the first. Modern BA frequently matches CM in speed when neither Marry nor Freddy are powered up. In fact on one occasion CM states a bloodlust BA to be blindingly fast, supporting that BA is as fast as CM. That third instance is also old. I wont debate that math as it seems largely accurate. Nevertheless, it is irrelevant as I’m not trying to use that argument. As you stated it is non-canonized anyway.
I’m sorry man, but saying BA is not FTL is a little bit ridiculous. How often do you see someone who is slower than light sustain a fight with half the DC Earth including at least 6 FTL characters at once. That really just doesn't add up. He tags multiple FTL characters over the course of the battle. If that doesn't prove he is FTL in combat speed I really don’t know what does. He blitzed Jay, Alan, and Power-girl (All FTL). Just read WW3 (Which I have no doubt you probably have) and you’ll see his unmatched combat speed. All your scans are in relation to his travel speed. On the moon having FTL travel speed makes no difference whatsoever. Combat speed is what makes or breaks this battle, and BA is nearly unmatched in this category. Think about all the times he fights multiple FTL characters at the same time, and is usually only tagged once or twice tops. He has kept fighting evenly with CM and Supes TWICE without falling behind their dual FTL power. EVERYONE has instances that make them look slower than light. Posting old scans and low-showings is not something that only applies to BA. BA is heavily proven to be FTL.
CM being slower than light: CM is stated at least 3 separate times to be faster than Superman (I believe they said Superman was stronger though). I’m going to try and figure out this scan thing and post one of those times. One was Superman just saying that CM had a far better travel speed, but I can’t find this one anywhere. Another time CM actually left Superman in the dust while Clark was moving at top speed. Here’s one frequently used to solidify CM’s ridiculous speed, where Superman is unable to catch Flash, stating he can barely even see him. Then CM catches Flash. This is the only one I could find but hopefully it’ll be enough. BA frequently sustains evenly matched fights with all three Marvels (All FTL as well), which leads me to believe that BA is actually faster than CM. Whether you agree or not, Superman is undoubtably FTL (many times faster actually). This makes CM FTL, as he is actually said and shown to be faster than Superman. This should pretty much prove that BA is FTL in travel speed. He is far FTL in combat speed. I would argue he has the greatest combat speed of any of his type of character except for Superboy Prime and H’el. No-one without top tier combat speed can fight this many FTL characters at once (You have to at least agree on this).
I’m not saying BA was faster than Superman, but that he fought evenly while both were moving so fast that everyone else was still. He even landed a series of blurred punches on Superman before the fights end. Meanwhile Superman monologued about how he was going all out on Adam, and not holding back (this includes in speed). This should mean BA is at least very close to equaling Clark’s speed (I personally think he surpasses Clark). This means BA can go FTL. Basically all Adam needs o be is faster than your team (Except for Comet), which he is by far. Honestly, he doesn't need FTL speeds to still easily blitz Occult.
He doesn't so much blitz people as out-move them and land hits on them. However, this is really all he has to do against your team. He’s only fighting one character who is comparable in speed. Jay IS faster than light. Barry stated it in his own book. Jay has also outraced Superman once and Power-girl many times (Both FTL). He easily tagged Bart (So much FTL it’s not even funny). BA tagged Jay with his combat speed. He saw him and he tagged him. If he just stuck an arm out Jay would have avoided it effortlessly.
Alan is nerfed to hypersonic regardless so it doesn't matter. He won't need speed anyway. His ring can enhance his mind to think faster, which is where the perception comes from. Many people forget that he has abilities that other lanterns don’t share (Enhanced perception/speed, Density Shifting, TP, etc.).
Not Non-Counterpoints
Ok, on the issue of Comet I’ll give you the travel speed. However, nothing you have shown thus far puts him anywhere near BA is combat speed (Which will matter more when fighting a smaller place like the moon). Regardless, there is no need to further debate the issue of Comet’s speed because he’s not the one I’d try to blitz. He can be taken care of later by Fate and Alan.
Lobo’s not nearly fast enough to stop the blitzes. However, this isn't a reason for debate either because Lobo is going to be the toughest to kill, so the team will get to him last. At first they just teleport him away from the battleground whenever he approaches.
Animal Man: Ive already addressed why that rot world feat isn't any threat whatsoever to resisting a BA blitz. Ok, now this feat is blown a little out of proportion. First off, it states Flash was not even half as fast as he used to be, meaning he falls to below Superman-level. BA has little trouble keeping up with Superman and other beings far faster than less than half of Flash. Honestly, I could easily make an argument for Jay Garrick being faster than New 52 Flash (He really doesn't have many Pre-52 Flash caliber feats as of now). I don’t think rot world Flash would be able to outrace Adam. Secondly, this is once again a feat of travel speed rather than reaction speed. Travel speed isn't doing Baker any good when forced to react to a blitz. He still reacts at the same speed as he would without the animal amps. This means that Baker really has no shot at surviving a blitz. Even if he somehow does (Which he won’t), he’s not sustaining that speed longer than a couple seconds. He’ll avoid an initial blitz only to perish in a second, third, or forth lap around the moon. However, the deciding factor is the lack of reaction speed feats that Buddy has. Once again, I don't see him being much trouble to take out in the initial blitz. As you can see the feat really isn't a huge threat (not that it isn't very cool).
Occult: I’m also getting to him later in another point, but for now I’ll address this one. Occult is NOT surviving this attack. There are just too many ways to kill him. Intangibility is a minor complication at best. I see BA taking one of three (not that there are only three) attack scenario’s if Occult goes intangible. First is another display of brute force. He rips off the area of the moon that Occult is standing on. He then proceeds to throw it into Earths orbit effectively killing Occult (and millions of bystanders as well). He doesn't need to get anywhere near Occult to do this, so being turned back is not an issue. He could also utilize his lightning to destroy Occult. It has shown the ability to hit intangible beings before (Gypsy and Martian Manhunter as well if I’m not mistaken). It shouldn't be too much of an issue to use this lightning to kill Occult. Third is to tag team Occult with Dr Fate (and Possibly some assistance from Alan). First Adam flies at top speeds generating a tornado of unbelievable magnitude. This keeps your team distanced and keeps Occult off balance. Occult can block magical energy, but he is still vulnerable to superior telepaths. This is were Fate comes in. He TP’s Occult to death. Adam then throws the Disk into a pocket dimension courtesy of Fate. Fate has shown TP abilities such as reading the minds of entire rooms in seconds, and hiding the JSA from Manhunter by messing with his TP. If he can go up against Manhunter (Just about the greatest telepath in comics) Occult is not a problem. Once again, Occult’s not coming out of this alive.
BA has incredible super senses. He can apparently smell someone from the other side of the planet. invisibility is not a problem. The amalgam won’t work anyway so this is irrelevant. If it did I doubt you hiding would be my teams biggest problem.
Dox is a non-issue. He’s a true genius, but all he can really do is give strategy tips. He’s not even a big expert here anyway. Most of my team is magic based anyway, so all he can give advice on is Human Bomb, who he won’t see because he’ll be cloaked and always teleporting. My point is Dox won’t be my first target in a speed blitz. He can easily be taken care of later. His force field is Ok but it’s not going to tank any hits from Adam (He casually on-shots Superman-level beings every storyline). Also Fate or Alan can just phase through and kill him, or TP kill him.
Ragman and Bomb are no joke as a duo. Ragman has already shown immunity to the disk once (I finally did some research on Occult), so doing it again isn't much of an issue. Bomb unleashes that energy upon direct contact, not in blasts. Bomb has the striking power to dish out some damage to top tier characters. He could be important in helping to take out Comet. Ragman can teleport throughout the battle field, and soul zap Lobo at the end of the battle (*See original post).
Other New Points
Occult: I did some digging on the matter of Occult and he really isn't as impassive as you described him. He’s a cool character no doubt (I think I’m probably going to read some more on him after this) However, his magic defense isn't quite as definite as you first described. His defenses have been bypassed beings of far less power and skill than Fate. People such as Constantine, Ragman, etc. have all bypassed his disc several times. Fate is a hundred times more powerful than an unprepared Constantine (Not that Constantine isn't a beast). Many other lesser beings have been less than stopped completely by the disc of seven. It does deflect most energy attacks, but other forms of magic can get through. Given that there are very few things in terms of magic that Fate can’t do, I have no doubt he’ll be able to take out Occult, even with the Disc of Seven. I even looked at the battle threads here on comic vine and found two threads about Dr Fate vs Dr Occult. One was locked from further discussion and the other was mostly agreed that Fate took it quite handily. In fact, you commented there saying, and I quote, “Dr Fate CURBSTOMP”. What has changed your opinion on the matter so much since then? The disc is formidable, but it just doesn't stand up to the helm of Nabu. Even if we don't blitz, I think my team could still take Occult without extreme difficulty. Also from what I’ve read his pregog isn't nearly as precise as you describe it. He can’t know exactly what will happen after just 15 minutes of meditation.
I believe that I addressed each of your major concerns with my plans. In summary Occult will be blitzed (even if he isn't its not like it’s all over). Then the rest of my original post is carried out. As for the matters of amalgam, that has become an argument of “Yes it is” “No it isn’t”, and I doubt either of use are going to be swayed at this point so let’s just agree to disagree on that matter. I’ll go ahead and say on record that if the amalgam is formed (which just isn't going to happen) my team is done. So there’s really not much else to be said there except that the voters will decide from there. Also regarding BA being FTL, this is another issue of agree to disagree. Besides, it doesn't really matter if he is FTL, as either way he’s not going to struggle in blitzing Occult or anyone else other than Comet. Anyway, what I’m basically saying is that we should move on in the debate from those two points, as to strengthen this debate in other areas. One doesn't matter all that much anyway, and the other has pretty much been covered from both sides (this is just my advice for both of us). Never mind, I see you put up a closer so just ignore this last part.
My previous post is in response to your post before the closer. This one will address the closer itself, as well as be my closer. I really don't have any added info either so I guess I’m done after this as well.
That Animal Man feat is a very cool one (Buddy really does have some good books), but 10 times reaction speed just isn't comparable to BA being able to engage upon many FTL characters at the same time, and still maintain the upper hand. During WW3 he was able to tag and defeat Jay Garrick (Contrary to popular belief he is FTL), Power-girl, Wonder-girl, Firestorm, Hour-man (Not FTL, but still very fast), Alan Scott, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Obsidian (who was intangible, and able to be tagged by the lightning I previously described), Wonder Woman, Jade, Bombshell (Not really sure whether she is FTL or not), Jesse Quick, Omac (I doubt he’s FTL, but he is still fast), Martian Manhunter (Not defeated by means of speed and strength, but still fought with evenly), Steel (Not FTL), Geo-Force (Enhanced speed), and many more. He does this all simultaneously, while in the process basically blitzing Jade, Wondergirl, Powergirl, Jay Garrick, and Firestorm (All FTL, except for Firestorm who is still incredibly fast). I’m sorry but BA is not going to be out-sped by Buddy Baker. His MODERN feats showcase ridiculous combat speed, and surely enough to counter 10 times the reaction speed of a normal human. Your math doesn't coincide with the information in that scan. If it did, he would be a lot faster than 10 times his normal reaction time. The top speeds you could get to by those terms are around 25 times average reaction time, not nearly to the levels you are talking about (Unless you’re saying that he’s this fast when amalgamated, which won’t work).
His pregog is very impressive, but it’s not always accurate as depicted in that scan. According to my research thus far he has often struggled with looking at future events. It’s not as cut and dry as that he instantly knows exactly what my team does. It takes more time than your team has for Occult to see exactly what happens to my team will do. It’s important to remember Occult is like Constantine in that they are both weaker in terms of power, but make up for it in being very prep savvy (Occult does it in the form of going into meditative states for long periods of time). Occult even getting as far as the pregog will be troublesome. Even if he does, being prepared only goes so far, and seeing Adam kill him beforehand doesn't mean he can stop it. In the previous post I addressed some of my solutions to killing an intangible Occult. It’s a complication, but not a major one.
Ok, so assuming Occult looks into the future (which he could very well fail to do), my team can still blitz him. I’ve already presented tons of evidence to why the amalgam isn't going to work, so I’ll address this part of your post as if it were your normal team doing this.
Ok, so assuming Argus can cloak the entire team (which I’m not sure he can), Adam can quite easily use his super-senses to locate the team.
As for this, the non-amalgamated team won’t have any force field enhancement so this is a null point in terms of the team stopping a blitz. Also Occult’s range doesn't span nearly as large as the battleground, and he needs to actually have time to use the disc before he can absorb any magic anyway. He won’t have any time before Adam kills him. Even if he did, lesser magical beings have resisted the disc before, so Fate and Alan don’t have much to worry about.
The amalgamated version doesn’t work, and no one on your team but Comet is nearly as fast as BA individually. Even if Comet can catch Adam before the blitz on Occult, he can’t really stop him. BA is a god in terms of durability. He practically tanked the attacks of half the DCU, so I don’t see Comet doing much good.
BA doesn't have to touch Occult to kill him, as per the examples in my previous post.
Amalgamated version doesn't work, and as individuals Comet is the only one who can contend with Adam in terms of speed, and Adam won’t have any trouble overcoming Comet’s durability.
Once again the amalgamated version won’t work, and as individual threats Lobo is the only person who’s a problem in terms of regeneration
Basically the amalgamated version of these characters will not work for the various reasons stated in my collective posts thus far. When this version doesn't work, the only way for the opponent to beat my team is with Occult. The bottom line is, Occult is not going to survive, whether killed in speed-blitz by BA, or being mind-raped by Dr Fate (Which he has NOT shown enough resistance in to stop a powerful telepath like Fate).
Closing Summary:
My opponent is under the false belief that his amalgam is full-proof. That entire argument rests on the head of a few scans where Buddy Baker does NOT show the ability to do anywhere near the level of power to accomplish the combination of varying super bloods. If that scan was showing Buddy hitting the bullseye on a dartboard, for this plan to work he has to hit the bullseye from 2 miles away while blindfolded, and with a shattered wrist. Another words, it’s just not happening. I believe that the abundant evidence I have presented (Using both proven scientific facts, then reinforced with canonized proof), vastly outweighs that of my opponent. I urge any potential voters to take some time an read through each argument before deciding the amalgam is foolproof, because you will see that it’s really not.
My opponent believes that even without Comet his amalgam DNA combination will be smooth. This believe is a mistake, as these bloods are some of the most unstable in the DCU, when so far Animal Man (or G’wanna Beast for that matter) have already proven unable to combine simple meta-human DNA. How can he be expected to combine the blood of a Czarnian (Something that has DNA that will literally KILL any Non-Czarnian’s), the blood of Occult (Who won’t even be helpful in any way, as the hybrid will only inherit innate abilities, and most of his magic is learned. This means none of Occult’s powers or spells he later learned are of any use anyway.) Dox (Who also has proven unable to reproduce with non-enhanced beings). At this point Baker, Argus, and Comet can try to from a hybrid. However, as is the nature of super-enhanced evolved DNA, it will burn through those advancements like a simple virus. The human body is built to identify and eliminate hostile abnormalities. Whatever enhancement Buddy and Argus have are obviously too enhanced to be destroyed by a normal body. But a evolved body should quite quickly burn through those enhancements, especially in the early stages of chromosomal enhancement (being split and combines into genomes causes the body to instantly find anywhere enhancement are hidden and cycle through them as to best benefit the health of the new being. This super enhanced blood will (According to this process), identify any modification and burn through them, therefore replacing them with the superior blood type.This means that, at best, my opponent creates a clone of Captain Comet. At worst Animal Man doesn't even get that far into the process. (Which is the FAR more likely result). I talk about applying this to canonized comic proof in a previous post.
Upon the failure of his amalgam his team is outgunned and outmatched. My battle plan is full-proof. Upon taking down Occult even my opponent knows it’s over. BA has proven to be FTL on many occasions. Posting older scans is of no use when BA has recently proven time and time again his power when it comes to speed. He can refuse to acknowledge this speed, but no one without EXCEPTIONAL combat speed could ever do what he has in the previous years. His only character capable of matching this speed is Comet, who still can’t stop him. Animal Man’s rot world feat shows that he is going far below light speed, can’t even see what is going on around him (lack of combat speed necessary to perceive the blitz), and can only sustain that speed for a couple seconds at most. Even so, I don’t even need to blitz Buddy, just Occult, and Buddy is NOT stopping BA. I’m not sure were my opponent is getting that last part from. I picked Adam as an 8 pointer, and hypersonic Alan as my 5 pointer. This means he can and is FTL. Nothing Occult can do will truly stop a blitz. Even if he does figure out a way to prevent the blitz, Dr Fate could simply TP him to death. Fate has kept up with the likes of Martian Manhunter in TP, so Occult is not a problem. Basically Occult will die, even if it's not by a blitz.
My opponent has greatly overestimated the magical talent of Occult. His defenses have been broken by far lesser magical beings, and his ability to instantly zap magic is just not true. My team has so many ways to kill Occult without an energy based attack for him to absorb. Occult can often struggle with seeing the future, his disc has been over exaggerated, and he just doesn't have as profound an effect on this battle as he thinks. The disc still takes great effort to absorb magic of beings who aren't even a tenth of what Fate or Alan is. Occult will not be the game changer I first thought he was upon further research.
From here I have a great advantage in every department and systematically eliminate the remaining team with my original battle plan.
So this is all unless something changes. It’s not quite as in depth as the original but I think it gets the point across. Good luck to beatboks during the votes. This has been an enjoyable experience thus far if he does win.
I'd vote for beatboks if I were to vote. Better constructed argument, and his plan didn't hinge on the amalgamation working, while firestorm relied on it failing. Also better formatting.
WTF happened?? I posted several hours ago with a response to the completely fraudulent claims of the first of Firestormfates two posts (the second wasn't up).
I know votes are open but I am going to at least list the points of that post without the scans since no one has voted.
All Scans I have used of BA/Cap marvel are canon to the version he has mentioned (WW3). Nothing preceded issue 4 of Power of Shazam and none were old at all. NONE were pre coie, none were non canon to the BA
I did in my post put up scans from Black Adam Age of Darkness (2007) to further show this as well. The simple fact is he only has a single post COIE feat of FTL speed and I have posted it with the context. BTW the scan FF put up of Cap doesn't show FTL speed.
So there are 3 times Cap has been stated to be FTL hey. Well I could post 20 times that numner of scans to the contrary. I can also post scans showing PG is faster than her team mate and she isn't FTL either. Not to mention the fact that she is vastly slower than Superman (shown on panel more times than I can poke a stick at)
Comet has better reaction feats than BA having not only fought but defeated better speedsters (like Johnny Quick of the Crime SYndicate who matches Wally in battles). the lost post included scans.
Simple Fact Buddy did what my opponent says he can't, on panel in the scans I provided. In the scan I provided of issue 50 he actually did VASTLY greater than that. He created life on a universal scale in all it's diversity from nothing.
Neither Constantine or Ragman have ever "gotten past" the disk of the 7. It wasn't employed. the disk has defeated guys on Classic Fate level like Koth and it's shield have held against them. I stated that. The disk automatically repels hostile energy and it can counter or undo any spell. No way is anyone on a team of magical characters penetrating a shield made by it. If Koth who could solo your entire team can't then you certainly can't.
None of my characters have "unstable DNA". This is simply a misrepresentation. In fact Czarnian DNA is stated several times to be the most stable that exists (by Dox who is more knowledgeable on the subject than his father who has very little interaction wit Lobo). That is why so little affects it. Complex =/= unstable so the argument is void
My opponent has misrepresented many things claiming that people were fought by BA in events like WW3 who weren't even around.
Now to the other false claims in the next post.
Jay isn't FLT at all. he has stated so on panel several times. I think if anyone would know if they were FTL he would. To be specific, when Asked by Mr Terrific if he could go FTL (in the issue before the scans I loaded) his response was NO, only Wally can. The simple fact was in the scans I already posted he needed to steal BA's speed JUST to achieve light speed
Jay was actually the fastest one in WW3. Yes the GL's due to warps etc can travel at FTL but they don't have reaction speed anywhere near that. As for those others being "pretty fast" Hourman has a speed of 60MPH, yeah super super fast isn't he. Never mind the fact that in WW3 most of the battle is BA not even reacting to them but tanking what they dish out and then simply striking harder.
Occult relying on his precog alone is ambiguous. he doesn't have to only rely on that. In the meditative state he's going into in my prep he can actually watch the events about to unfold. If he spends 10 minutes doing so he will see 10 minutes of 1 possible future. He actually isn't as low in power or as prep dependent as John because he has one of the most powerful artifacts in the DCU as a power source. One that is always as powerful as any mystic force it faces. In COIE every mystic in the DCU focused their power through his disk and Alan Scot's power battery to give spectre a chance. Hardly a power issue.
I was keeping one eye on this fight considering the characters involved. The way I see it, the winner had the best team assembly, good use of time to build an effective strategy, better synergy, overall superior debate and counters. My vote goes to @beatboks1.
@firestormfate1919: @beatboks1: As I already indicated a certain bias towards one side, I am going to abstain. But it was an interesting debate and I though that Firestorm did a good job against someone who knows his team better than he does.
@beatboks1: earns my vote in this matchup. I feel that his overall presentation was more plausible and properly structured. His counters were contextually sound and spot on, which I feel were the tipping point. Excellent debate gentlemen.
@firestormfate1919: @beatboks1: i vote for Firestorm :) he debated with style and his BA claims made sense to me, this was a close debate, beatboks pulled out all the known usual stuff yet firestorm shaked it up. Goodjob both debators!
@haoalchemist: Thanks! Also thanks to those who voted for beatboks but still expressed support. It means a lot to have a debate with a hall of famer here on comic vine, even if he does end up winning.
My vote goes to @beatboks1, as I feel he handled his characters and his strategy in such a way that winning should not be possible, no holes in his strategy were exploited that he couldn't retort, and he seemed to have more overall knowledge of his characters, I commend @firestormfate1919 for putting up an excellent defence, Beatboks is just some other kind of beast when it comes to debating
I don't think my vote counts because i am in this debate and the closer we get to the end the more bias there is etc. But by the end of this debate I was convinced that the science behind making the organic super creature was unlikely to be completely successful even with everything Beatboks had going for him in that field. However even with it completely failing and just having even fair fights between the two teams Beatboks i fell would still edge out in power. If firestorm had 15 minutes of prep or some way to know what was going on as soon as the fight started or before the fight his team would have a fighting chance. In a straight up brawl there would be a major lack of teamwork coming from his side as well as a lack of a leader.
I found Firestormfate1919 having a better debate overall but just lacking the strength to back up what was said so If I could I would vote for Beatboks.
You both did very well! I hope I wont have to face one of you guys next! (assuming I win mine that is XD)
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