ROTS Sidious/Darth Maul vs. Jacen/Jaina Solo

*Legacy of the Force versions of Both

*Morals off for all fighters

*Battle takes place on neutral ground

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vs.

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@shootingnova@i_like_swords@jedixman@jkbart@darth_necray@okayalright_44@killerwasp

I'm assuming OP callouts still don't work (they did at one point, though, which is odd) which is why I didn't get a notification.

Now, Caedus vs Sidious is in the latter's favor. He is equally fast (or slightly faster but there won't be a difference), and about equal in strength and durability, though Caedus's pain tolerance is of course more tested and probably higher. Skill-wise, they should be nearly parallel. Both Palpatine and Caedus are slightly behind Luke, but Sidious fighting as an equal to Yoda, fighting an amped Mace to a standstill or outskilling Maul when holding back probably gives him an edge. Caedus's best showing is obviously fighting as a near-equal to Luke, and there was obviously a very real threat of Luke losing in the duel, although to be fair he was also hindered by a few slight negative circumstances. That being said, I expect Caedus to win one or two rounds against Luke in a duel, so I would expect Palpatine to only win 7-8/10 duels against Jacen, and they would all be hard-fought and brutal.

Palpatine has a rather noticeable edge in superior power, though. It's noticeable, but not extensive, of course. I doubt his Lightning is of much effect, though. Jacen has displayed Absorption against capital ship turbolasers as I recall, which is probably a better feat than anything Yoda ever displayed in Tutaminis, and after increasing in power I would expect him to be able to absorb Palpatine's Lightning with difficulty. Telekinesis is close but in Palpatine's favor - not by much, but it's there. I'd still give Palpatine 8/10 at most, possibly 7.

Jaina and Maul is probably an even split. They're similar in most areas, although Jaina might get a majority just because of the way she fights, which is unlike that of most Jedi (which Maul is used to), and she also has a tendency to excel in unfavorable conditions. Even if she does win, though, she can't beat Palpatine unless her fight finishes faster and she has the aid of Caedus. The only other way they could win is if it's one of the few rounds where Caedus defeats Sidious, in which case Maul would follow shortly. Every other way is a loss for the Legacy team.

Team 1 for 7-8/10, although I am curious to see if Jacen and Jaina would have any synergy that would help them in this fight. They do both know Force Meld, but whether they will use it is another thing). I'd call @jkbart again to discuss a thread like this. He might disagree with me on some areas, as will @i_like_swords and @jedixman probably, but it'll be nice for a discussion as well.

@shootingnova: I think Maul would beat Jaina. I see him as slightly higher than her as a duelist, but within the same tier (because I see her feat against a weakened Caedus while she's amped, or a weakened Caedus in general, as unreliable in comparison to Maul's non-circumstantial dueling feats), and while she's an unorthodox and adaptable fighter I'm not sure this would serve as a particularly noticeable edge unless she's unorthodox in a way that has truly helped her in fights.

@i_like_swords: I thought we agreed they were equally skilful. In any case, I disagree with any of them being more skilled then the other. As for whether her adaptability or unorthodoxy has ever helped her, of course it has.

Caedus was not really weakened at all in the first one, and Jaina took an arm. She was being helped through the Force by Luke, though, but how much it helped is questionable, since Luke was also casting an Illusion that made Caedus think it was Luke, not Jaina, so I do expect Caedus to be utilizing maximum effort. I can't recall if the novel said anything about Jaina actually being improved, or if it was just an Illusion that Luke cast. But I do recall that the novel described Caedus as not being fazed at all by the loss of an arm, so I doubt he was weakened then. He was weakened in the last fight, but again, with his incredible pain tolerance and durability, the amount he would be hindered by isn't that extensive, and Jaina still killed him after a hard fight without amps. She was injured in the fight as well, so her performance obviously decreased as well. Presumably she improved after that, since she was still in her thirties by LotF.

But to be fair, she is more adaptable than Maul in the sense that she can fight without precognition and clairvoyance, and without those, she defeated Tsavong Lah when her legs were pinned and she slew several Slayers, (a single Slayer stomped Kyp Durron when it was injured, I believe), and then she improved after that. I think that would make her equal to Maul, at least. Power is about even, or it goes to Maul but it doesn't make a difference.

It is actually worth noting that there is also a possibility for the teams to "deploy" in a reverse manner. It's a legitimate option if Sidious would go towards destroying Jaina as fast as possible, and Maul would be tasked with outliving her against Caedus. Or, of course, the reverse. I've never seen such scenarios within SW, but technically, they would make a lot of sense, especially with further preparation.

Here such a reversed scenario, with Sidious vs. Jaina and Maul vs. Caedus, would be better for the first team. In terms of sheer speed and, heh, "killing efficiency" deriving from their fighting style, mainly its focus on aggression, especially with Sidious's constant, never-ending offensive, Sidious has better edge against Jaina, than Caedus has against Maul. She would be easier outclassed with the way Sidious fights, and more visible speed disparity. Sidious, with additional aid, wouldn't have any problem with Caedus then. Such a scenario would benefit 1st team more, but it's probably unlikely. It's too rare within SW.

Sidious should win against Caedus, but I actually believe their capabilities in direct Force assaults would have a large meaning here. The gap between them isn't huge. However, equally large gap between less powerful characters (on, roughly, Kenth's level, let's say) would have smaller meaning because of incapability of using the Force to such a scale as to actually fight strictly with those abilities. In case of characters that powerful, they actually can fight with the Force, although it's less beneficial in a neutral terrain. On the other hand, teamfights can mean lot of position switching, what can create opportunity for such a manner of fighting. Sidious is more powerful, and he could overpower Caedus with Lightning, but that's unlikely if Caedus applied a proper method of defense (a properly balanced mix of absorbing the energy/disrupting it etc.). Sidious has better edge within telekinetical attacks. His mental capabilities would be rather useless against Caedus.

In the end, Sidious should win simply because he is more skilled fighter. I wouldn't actually factor physical capabilities here, seeing Caedus coping with Luke in this area, and both of them being masters of such high level that there is no way the physical traits utilized within their fight would have such a margin between them that it would actually affect the fight. I view Caedus as between Mace/Dooku and Yoda/Sidious, generally. It could be debathed though, but honestly, it's really impossible to judge that precisely. There is no universal measuring stick for them. However, while Jacen has relatively common, comprehensive saber style without any distinctive traits (besides his obvious incredible skill and such) that would be familiar to Sidious, Caedus never seen an unending, constant, unpredictable yet fully maximized offensive of someone like Sidious. That's another edge worth noting I think.

To be fair, Jaina-Maul contest wouldn't be very meaningful here. Even heavily drained Sidious can dispose of Jaina, and equally Caedus can of Maul (maybe more difficult though). They're relatively even in skill. Within a wide range of circumstances, Jaina was capable of contending with Caedus skilfully on a level somewhat similiar to how Maul-Sidious sheer skill disparity would look, at least judging by their comparison (which is obviously easier because of how many sources there are). Maul has greater command over the Force, and can channel it better combatively, utilize it properly mid-fighting... or at least is better depicted in that area. He more frequently displayed direct Force channeling combatively. He would need to imbalance Jaina, create a proper opportunity to get an edge with that of course, as he obviously can't overpower her directly. Within such a heated fight there would be a large number of possibilities for Maul, but not necessarily the time for that. The longer the duel, the worse would Jaina fare though. Essentially, she uses more mixed methods, but with time passing, Maul would get to understand them better, especially with how keen he is in that, as an analytic hunter. He has greater ferocity and strength, and they could potentialy wear down Jaina. Therefore, the fight wouldn't probably be too long, as Maul would potentially, by that time, be in a better position.

Sidious and Caedus could potentially fight longer than them, but in terms of fighting time, it can really go either way. And still, it's not that "if the fight gets prolonged too much, Maul wins" - his chances are better with time, but he can still loose. There are possibly equally large possibilities for Maul helping Sidious, Jaina helping Jacen, Sidious finishing Jaina off and Caedus finishing Maul (certainly almost none for Jaina finishing wounded Sidious though, and Caedus winning is too unlikely o matter what).

Hmm. In case of prolonged fight between the "masters", Sidious has slightly better chances of receiving aid, but on the other hand, it changes nothing, while Jacen receiving help would change the outcome. Still, though, the chances for 2nd team are as high, as those of Caedus outdueling Sidious, and those are even more slim in case of Maul defeating Jaina before these two resolve their fight (50% chance regarding timing, +50% for Maul's win in that case). That would cement a higher majority for 1st team - to 8/10. Sidious vs. Caedus would be 7/10.

@jkbart: I agree with some of this, but I also have many disagreements or things to add on.

I doubt it. Sidious can sense the threat of Caedus's potency through the Force, and would presumably almost always go after him. But assuming that he did strike down Jaina, Caedus would probably tap into Force Rage at that point and be rather formidable, but he would probably still lose. That being said, he might be able to quickly slay Maul and, if the Rage lasts, slay Palpatine as well in separate individual fights. I doubt Palpatine would utilize Rage, but Maul might upon his master's death.

Sidious employing telekinetic assaults could be an issue, but it would only impact the fight in that it would serve as leverage, since Caedus is durable enough to withstand whatever Palpatine hurls at him. Lightning is useless here. Caedus is probably strong enough to hold his lightsaber against Lightning (I believe surprise may have been a factor for why Palpatine disarmed Yoda with Lightning in the film), but even if not, his Tutaminis has absorbed worse in the form of capital ship turbolasers, and that was long before his prime, as I recall.

Sidious's mental abilities could be of use. He is comparable to Luke, who found repeated success against Caedus through the Force, including with Illusions. Now, granted, Palpatine never displayed anything of the sort, although Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force suggests that he used a confusion haze against the Masters, which might be of use against Jaina, but probably not Caedus, since it's a very broad application of mental power.

Caedus was physically capable of harming Luke, who is at least as durable as Palpatine, so it can be an issue here. More importantly, Caedus actually fought as basically an equal for Luke, except Luke had some negative circumstances. Those were slight, though, and Palpatine is inferior to Luke as well, so it should cancel out. Caedus is anywhere from minimally or negligibly behind Palpatine combatively, to being on par with him.

I do, however, disagree that Caedus would be unprepared for Palpatine's brutality or relentlessness. When Caedus fought Jaina/Luke, he described her fighting style as this:

His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy-one that he had never, as far as Caedus knew, used on anyone who had survived to describe it. The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.

Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible

This is description is basically analogous to the way Palpatine fights. He is conservative until he can draw conclusions about his opponent's weaknesses or when they leave themselves completely open, and then he demolishes his enemies. His offensive style is of course brutal, ruthless and designed to do damage without suffering it in return. Caedus admitted that he hadn't known it before, but he was perfectly capable of adapting to it. You mentioned his incredible skill - somebody of that level would be able to adjust to opposing fighting styles without too much of an issue. Jacen, somebody who has faced Luke, Jaina, Mara, and Yuuzhan Vong, should be particularly adept at adapting to others. It's not an edge for Palpatine.

This is probably the area with the biggest discrepancy between us.

With the level of injuries inflicted on him as with Luke and Caedus in Inferno, I find it hard to believe that Sidious would obtain a decisive (or at least unquestioned) majority over Jaina, or that Caedus will over Maul. Unless Jaina and Maul are also injured (which they might be), they could win, since I suspect that if either Sidious or Caedus wins their respective duels, then the survivor would be badly wounded.

Maul definitely does not have a greater command of the Force in the sense of mastery. Jaina is more adept with using varying powers, and her ability to break Beskar and so on immediately after learning Shatterpoint is proof of her mastery/command of the Force.

Now, if you meant more potency in the Force, then I agree. Maul is more destructive, and he hurls people about and destroys portions of the environment and what not. But is this really worth bringing up? Jaina is durable enough to withstand being hurled around (and Maul is not just hurling her around to begin with), and her own telekinetic power was enough to break a Force Choke from Caedus. Sure, it required maximum effort, but Maul is not Caedus either. Caedus is two or three tiers ahead of Maul in sheer power, so, to me, Jaina is comparable to Maul.

As for Jaina's performance declining throughout fights, not necessarily. Maul might get increasingly better understanding of her fighting style , but she would get a better understanding of his, as well. How does that help? Jaina has access to Shatterpoint, which isn't an instant win by any means (and I doubt it would be useful for a majority, either), but as the fight drags on, she will come to understand Maul's fighting style and weaknesses more, and Shatterpoint will magnify those weaknesses. This is the reason for why I said Jaina might be able to get a slim majority like 6/10, as opposed to being a complete 5/10.

I would agree with this, expect Sidious has an equal chance of receiving help as Caedus, not more, in my opinion.

@shootingnova: Late reply from me as always. :P

I doubt it. Sidious can sense the threat of Caedus's potency through the Force, and would presumably almost always go after him. But assuming that he did strike down Jaina, Caedus would probably tap into Force Rage at that point and be rather formidable, but he would probably still lose. That being said, he might be able to quickly slay Maul and, if the Rage lasts, slay Palpatine as well in separate individual fights. I doubt Palpatine would utilize Rage, but Maul might upon his master's death.

Yes, I said it myself that it is a very unlikely scenario. It is too rare in SW itself to utilize such a tactic, even in times where it could prove useful, and in this case it even isn't useful. Although I just wanted to mention how it would go if they switched sides.

Sidious employing telekinetic assaults could be an issue, but it would only impact the fight in that it would serve as leverage, since Caedus is durable enough to withstand whatever Palpatine hurls at him. Lightning is useless here. Caedus is probably strong enough to hold his lightsaber against Lightning (I believe surprise may have been a factor for why Palpatine disarmed Yoda with Lightning in the film), but even if not, his Tutaminis has absorbed worse in the form of capital ship turbolasers, and that was long before his prime, as I recall.

It would still, imho, make the fight go more in favor of Sidious. It would create large imbalance for Caedus, large opportunities for Sidious, especially with Sidious being faster by some extent. Of course, Sidious doesn't have enough advantage to overpower Caedus with the Force alone, unless they both decide to fight directly through the Force, and there almost 0% chances for that in a neutral terrain. Still, he simply has that advantage, and actually utilizing all of his edges would be of great use here.

And as Sidious is even more powerful than Caedus, I find it likely that in a prolonged contest Sidious would generate enough pressure with his Lightning to overpower Jacen in the end. Sidious is more powerful in every regard (at least dividing Force influence into most simple categories of course, there are areas where Caedus is more versatile) so it isn't logical to assume that Caedus could actually harness a power beyond his own with Tutaminis/Absorb. Force Lightning's strength directly translates to the power of the user, and with Sidious more powerful than Caedus overall, it should be a rather clear case. Caedus could absorb firepower of the turbolasers, yes (to be honest, I'm not sure if those weren't laser cannons, but it doesn't matter much), but as Sidious displayed obvious superiority, it is legitimate to conclude that he could simply harness greater power than those turbolasers (and his feats support that, over time, he actually could). However, I agree that such a prolonged contest of Lightning vs. Tutaminis almost certainly wouldn't appear here.

With Yoda, by the way, I agree, and I also believe it was also the case of balance. Yoda was standing on the edge, requiring more focus on his stability.

Sidious's mental abilities could be of use. He is comparable to Luke, who found repeated success against Caedus through the Force, including with Illusions. Now, granted, Palpatine never displayed anything of the sort, although Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force suggests that he used a confusion haze against the Masters, which might be of use against Jaina, but probably not Caedus, since it's a very broad application of mental power.

Yeah, agreed. In general scale and power of mental influence, Sidious shown superiority to Caedus and being approachable to Luke, but he never displayed powers like that. He is also to close to Caedus to applicate such "multi-layered" mental influence, like the described "confusion haze", on him with great success.

This is description is basically analogous to the way Palpatine fights. He is conservative until he can draw conclusions about his opponent's weaknesses or when they leave themselves completely open, and then he demolishes his enemies. His offensive style is of course brutal, ruthless and designed to do damage without suffering it in return. Caedus admitted that he hadn't known it before, but he was perfectly capable of adapting to it. You mentioned his incredible skill - somebody of that level would be able to adjust to opposing fighting styles without too much of an issue. Jacen, somebody who has faced Luke, Jaina, Mara, and Yuuzhan Vong, should be particularly adept at adapting to others. It's not an edge for Palpatine.

Heh, to be honest, I simply remembered that part differently, with much more primitive fighting method not reminding of Sidious's ruthlessness and cunning. My memory or my translations, probably both.

Now, if you meant more potency in the Force, then I agree.

Yes, I used "command" as a general description of just being somewhat more deadly with the Force in a combative situations.

As for Jaina's performance declining throughout fights, not necessarily. Maul might get increasingly better understanding of her fighting style , but she would get a better understanding of his, as well. How does that help?

Part of Jaina's performance derives from her unorthodox methods, and within prolonged fight, with his analytic aptitude and the way he observes fighters and works around their fighting style (like in TPM), Maul could adapt to her style. Maul is a fighter working more with classic lightsaber arts, so prolonging the fight should work slightly towards Maul's favor.

Team 1.

If caedus fought GM Luke as a near equal, whom is obviously above ROTS/DE Sidious, shouldn't there be a slight discrepancy between Caedus and Sidious as in

Caedus >= Sidious

?

@eisenfauste: I guess Lumiya >= Sidious as well because she also fought as a near equal to GM Luke ? Or Darth Krayt has seemed as equal with GM Luke, in this case he should be superior sith lord than Darth Sidious as well ?

Idk. @shootingnova did Lumiya fight as a near equal to GM Luke?

GM Luke is kind of inconsistent, he is not like Yoda or Sidious in terms of consistency. Using him to elevate the characters is not the best way to determine their power, even a modified droideka managed to give a trouble to GM Luke which is ridiculous, since he could take a droideka army without trouble like even Darth Maul did with the force before.

In short, you need different feats for Caedus.

@shootingnova: Caedus was not really weakened at all in the first one, and Jaina took an arm.

Yes he was. He had a hole in his shoulder from a sniper shot and only one good arm. She lost despite the illusions that Luke casted until she got amped by the Force

Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.

Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible

and Jaina still killed him after a hard fight without amps.

I'm pretty sure she was amped again.

Then Jaina opened herself fully to the Force, drawing it in through the power of her emotions-not through her anger or pain, as a Sith might, but through her love of what her brother had been:the teenage jokester who could always find hope in a desperate situation, the questioning warrior who had bested the Yuuzhan Vong warmaster in personal combat, the reluctant champion who had shown a galaxy the way to compassionate victory.

The Force came pouring in from all sides, saturating Jaina and devouring her, filling her with a roaring maelstrom of power, carrying away her pain and leaving in its place the strength not only to survive, but to rise and fight.

Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible

Team 1

@night4345: It states clearly he didn't seem fazed by the loss of an arm:

That part wanted to stand paralyzed in shock, to pretend this was just some terrible nightmare from which she would shortly awaken. The other part-the part that had actually asked for this mission-knew what would happen if she let herself freeze.

Jaina launched herself after Caedus. The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him. He simply turned to meet her attack, his yellow eyes blazing with pain and fury, and their lightsabers met in a brilliant explosion of color. Jaina brought the beskad around again, striking low for his thigh:and knew she was in trouble when Caedus did not even try to block.

Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible

I'm pretty sure she was amped again.

No, she wasn't. There was no external factor to amp herself yet again. Just because she opened herself to the Force, which Jedi do in climatic fights, does not mean she was amped, unless you're suggesting that she amped herself, in which case there's nothing to stop her from doing so again.

- Aaaaaaagggg! - screamed Caedus at the end of the battle.

Sidious was sighing, moaning and couldn't breath. He was all in blood from four heavy wounds. Caedus was all in blood, dying after 10 minutes of one of the best duels in galaxy. He was all in blood and dying.

-Aaaaggg! - Caedus screamed again when Palpatine sent another wave of The Force Lightning.

-AAAAGGGG! - Caedus screamed again.

Jaina got out of Maul's corpse. She was missing arm and leg, and was too tired to breath and see anything around her. Everything was red to her... She jumped to Sidious to try to help defeated brother, but he pulled out a saber from nowhere and impaled her head. He was sighing and moaning in excitement from the win, and pain, and murdering Jaina like a dog and all the torture he is giving them.

-Pleeease! - Jacen screamed for mercy. He tried to get up, but his skin was burned and melted. He suffered too much, he felt only suffering, only suffering, suffering. Unending PAIN.

-Pleeeaaase! - Jacen screamed again. He couldn't defend Lightning, he was dying, the Force was leaving him, he couldn't move, all burned, almost killed.

Sidious begin to breath faster and roar during blasting more and more Lightning.

-Please... Please... - Caedus cried for mercy. Sidious was tired, he couldnt breath too. He lifted the dying Caedus with Force and focused on the neck.

-Please... GGGGGGGGGG - Caedus shaked in pain. His scream was very weak. After five seconds he died.

Grand Master Luke never had issues with a droideka. He and Mara encountered one in Survivor's Quest, which took place in 22 ABY. Luke never became the Grand Master until 36 ABY.

1. Don't worry, sometimes I make late replies as well.

2. Fair enough.

3. Sidious has a tendency to rely on his blade against those who are close to him in power. For instance, DE Luke, who is definitely not more powerful than Caedus, was dueled by Palpatine, rather than attacked with the Force. Under the relentless pressure of Caedus's attacks, I also doubt Palpatine would have much room to employ Force powers.

4. Alright.

5. You really didn't address the part about Shatterpoint and Jaina's own analytical/adaptability skills.

@shootingnova: It states clearly he didn't seem fazed by the loss of an arm

I was talking about his injuries before the fight not made by the fight and he was.

Across the chamber, her brother was in little better shape. He sat slumped in a half-collapsed chair, his remaining hand clamped over the stump of his missing arm, his thigh wound dripping blood onto the floor. His yellow eyes were staring at Jaina more in confusion than rage, and his head was cocked as though he could not quite believe what he was seeing.

Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible

No, she wasn't. There was no external factor to amp herself yet again. Just because she opened herself to the Force, which Jedi do in climatic fights, does not mean she was amped, unless you're suggesting that she amped herself, in which case there's nothing to stop her from doing so again.

So Luke's love for Leia didn't give him a boost over Vader? Obi-Wan's grief over Qui-Gon's death didn't give him help against Maul? Are these any different than Jaina amping herself by using the love for her brother? I never said she couldn't do it again if Jacen is in trouble.

@shootingnova: As for Sidious, true, that's an accurate point. Some more instinctive, combative applications would help Palpatine (more alike mid-combat telekinesis utilized strictly at the moments of imbalance), but it's true he never shown doing so during his fights, if I recall. It's morals off scenario though.

And as for the Shatterpoint, you're probably right here - time's progress can allow Jaina to seize proper moment, although we both know how rarely Shatterpoint was actually utilized by Mace or Jaina :P Jaina has her own combative intuition, and her simple knack for it, but thing is, Maul, while he is very sophisticated and his fighting style is unique in its own way, he also bases that around "classical" tradition of lightsaber arts. Part of Jaina's skill is her unorthodox methods and skillset unlike most inheritors of lightsaber arts tradition - and in a prolonged fight, Maul can understand that, familiarize himself with that, and that simply lessens Jaina's chances of outmaneuvering him. Jaina can analyze his style and adapt herself too, but that doesn't give her as large edge as it would give in the opposite scenario.

@night4345: It's really a hard topic, but this isn't a case as unique as, for the record, with Mace's amp. Force Sensitives always draw on the Force, subconsciously or not, and the one medium between themselves and the Force is their mind, and their will, their mental balance, their mental state. Their emotions, feelings, objects of focus, states of mind, are simply key here. And as they are constantly present, and by definition they are in a neverending flow, such instances like with Luke in RotJ, Jaina in Apocalypse and so on occur everywhere.

ROTS Sidious should be slightly above LotF Jacen. I'm not sure about Jaina vs Maul though. I think that could make all the difference.

@jkbart: Thanks for explaining.

@night4345: That was well after the instant I was citing, and it was practically the end of the duel.

As for Obi-Wan's anger and so on, he actively tapped into Force Rage. Jaina was merely opening herself to the Force, which Jedi often do and it is in no way relevant to Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's death, or Luke being stirred by Vader over Leia. Both of these instances aren't a result of love (not that there isn't love), but because they are stirred into anger. They tap into that anger, which is Force Rage, which enhances their performance. What Jaina did wasn't Dark Rage, it was just allowing the Force into herself. The two don't operate in the same way.

Geez good discussion. Im befuddled now lol clearly need to find some more books post ROTJ. Ive learned alot reading this thread. :)