ROTJ Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Bane DOE

*Battle takes place in Theed Square

*Morals off for both fighters

*Both are bloodlusted

vs.

@shootingnova@jedixman@dccomicsrule2011@dominis@darth_necray

Luke is stronger and more skilful. Bane is more powerful but not by such an extensive margin that he could instantly defeat Luke. Speed is about even. Knowledge lies with Bane but much of what he knows is impertinent in a fight. Drain he cannot utilize without first being amplified, Lightning Luke could repel on his blade, and Essence Transfer isn't a plausible strategy, based on both the fact that Luke's willpower and potential is too much for Bane to overcome, and Bane needs to first physically touch Luke, which won't be happening.

Luke

Bane is only slightly more powerful then Luke. Bane is roughly Vader's equal and we know how Luke vs. Vader ended up. Bane doesn't have the emotional issues that Vader did. I think Bane could pull of a victory, but Luke for a slight majority 6/10

I love Darth Bane but i got to go with Luke.

Luke.

Luke.

Faster, more adroit lightsaber duelist, etc, etc.

Feats for Luke being able to block lightning at this point in time?

Going with Bane. I think he's a bit faster, more powerful, stronger Force user, etc. etc. Luke is only possibly physically stronger (which wouldn't hardly matter in this fight) and more skilled. But I don't see it as being enough for him to win a majority.

@_raptor_: He is not faster than Luke they are about even. He is only slightly more powerful as well. Anyways Luke used force deflection on Siduous's lightening but it didn't work. Sidious's lightening is much more powerful than Bane's though.

@_raptor_: Luke temporarily deflected Palpatine's much more powerful Lightning (in comparison to Bane, at least). Granted, whether it was a full blast or not was questionable.

Bane is not faster at all. Luke rivals him in every sense of the word.

@shootingnova: @xxacid_spitxx: I view Bane's feat of covering himself in light to block just about every droplet of rain while being quick enough to dodge the ones that got past better than anything Luke has done up to this point

@_raptor_: Bane forming shields or deflecting torrential rainstorms is not any better than Luke deflecting blaster fire from 128 beings at once, fighting faster than thought, forming curtains out of his blade, forming afterimages etc.

Afterimages = slow compared to the other showings. Fighting faster than thought? Faster than who's thought? lol. Forming curtains is also not as good as Bane's feat. Deflecting blaster fire like that is impressive, but rain drops are also much smaller, and what do you mean by at once? It could be interpreted a few different ways, as in within one second, or, within the amount of time it took all of them to shoot all the blasts. I doubt they all fired at exactly the same time unless there was an army of over 1,000 of them, allowing them to get off 128 shots within a second.

Temporarily deflecting Palpatine's lightning doesn't mean anything if it was only temporary. When was this and where did you see this? If it was Episode 6, then it certainly was a useless feat since Luke still ended up getting owned by Palpatine anyways even though Palpatine wasn't even using full lightning power against Luke.

@_raptor_: Afterimages are decent. Bane has never displayed afterimages without amplifications, that I recall.

Faster than thought doesn't need specifications regarding whose thought it is. Just thought in general.

Forming curtains = forming shields.

Rain drops are smaller is fairly irrelevant. Bane actually had to use his physical agility movements to avoid the rain, whereas Luke caught all the blaster fire on his lightsaber.

Any speed disparity, if it exists, is too negligible to matter, so I have no idea why there's such an emphasis on speed.

Unless you believe that speed is more important than skill. And for the record, your original post in this thread listed Bane's advantages as "stronger Force user" and "more powerful".... which are the same thing.

I have to agree the rain feat seems better than after images for sure, With the 128 and thought being more debatable

I wonder How much easier would the rain feat be, if you were much faster,does the size and number of rain make up for the slow speed compared to a blaster?

You really don't think that if we was able to block all the raindrops that it wouldn't have formed afterimages? Or, are you saying that when he died that he was amped?

Fair enough, though I doubt that is a good feat, since all Jedi can fight "faster than thought" since they all have superhuman reflexes...

Pretty much, I know. Just saying, I view Bane's feat as being slightly better than Luke forming curtains out of his blade.

Meh, true, I guess

I agree. But there isn't so much emphasis. I was just saying I thought Bane was faster according to what I've seen so far. Now I've seen more.

I don't really believe Speed is more important than skill, but it is quite close in my book. It would only be more important if the disparity between the two is bigger in speed.

Eh, I guess by "stronger Force user" I meant overall, meaning he knows more powers as well. Not just how well he utilizes them. :/

*EDIT* Nova, do you have any idea of how hard it was raining when Bane deflected them? Was it like, during a storm?

No, he generated afterglows, which are different. Afterimages are like making it appear that you wield multiple blades at once. Afterglows are just large blurs of color like shields/nets/webs/barriers/curtains/baskets etc.

How is that not a good showing? And not all Jedi are faster than thought, that's ridiculous. Regular Jedi have been beaten repeatedly by non-superhumans and slower-than-thought fighters.

Not really, but this debate is pointless. If it's only slight, then it doesn't even matter in this fight.

No, the emphasis was that Bane might win in part due to his speed, which doesn't make sense. To begin with, Bane isn't even faster than Luke, and it isn't of consequence. Luke fought Vader to a draw and Vader is faster than Bane as far as feats go.

1. Speed is nowhere near as important as skill. If the disparity is absolutely gaping, then yes, I agree, it would be very consequential, but in other circumstances, skill remains more important. There is no disparity in speed to begin with, but even if there was, it would be far too small to make an impact on this fight.

2. Irrelevant. Drain & Essence Transfer can't be used in a regular combat situation, or at least, by Bane, and Lightning can be dodged or repelled on a blade.

3. IIRC, it was a few drops and then it became a downpour.

1. Afterglows =/= afterimages? I fail to see that.

2. Do I have to ask again, what do you mean by "faster than thought"? Who said he moved "faster than thought"? If it was the writer, then from the human point of view, of course a Jedi would be able to react faster than a human's thoughts. Otherwise, everyone 'thinks' at the same speed. Nobody 'thinks' faster than each other. They only are able to react with their physical motions faster once their brain processes the thoughts. That's pretty ridiculous if you believe that certain people can 'think' faster than each other. The feat that you provided here is very bland and unclear. Jedi being beat by people who aren't as fast as them means nothing with what we're talking about. You said yourself that skill matters more than speed.

3. I said, I view Bane's feat as being better. Doesn't matter if you do or not.

4. If you misinterpreted what I meant then that is your fault. I never said that speed was a big difference, or would be a game-changer in this fight. All I said at the time was that from the feats that I knew of from both of them at the time, Bane was faster. Now, I see them as being equal.

1. Speed is nowhere near as important as skill? IMO it's close. You could have someone as skilled as Yoda but having regular human speed feats, go up against someone as skilled as Jar Jar, and give them feats of being able to cover their body in light of the blade and run at crazy high speeds, then Jar Jar would win, since Yoda wouldn't be able to react to him. Like I said, it all depends on how big the gap is between the two. But skill certainly isn't "way more important" than speed. If you think otherwise then we'll have to agree to disagree.

2. Luke has never dodged or blocked lightning. Plus, Bane also has Telekinesis and Dun Moch.

3. Okay then, thanks. I'm pretty sure that the amount of raindrops that fall during a few seconds in a downpour would be more than 128. But nonetheless Luke's speed feats up to this point are good.

Seriously? Afterglows are just large blurs of color. By contrast, afterimages are distinct replications (or seemingly replications, at least).

Let's make this simple. Which of the following is the superior showing - forming a shield out of a blade, or appearing to wield half a dozen blades at once?

Of course it was a writer. Also, who said anything about whether or not people think faster or not? All I said is that reacting faster than thought itself is a good showing because thought is actually of considerable speed.

lol

Did I say anything about the discrepancies between our views? I said if the difference is slight, then it's not worth bringing up. Who said anything about whether I view the feat as better or not?

I said nothing about misinterpretations. All I said is that minimal speed disparities are irrelevant, and yes, you did say it was a game-changer, because your initial remarks were that Bane would win via a combination of speed and power.

If you now seem them as equal, then that's finished. We don't need to discuss this any further?

1. Since you obviously had to use the most extreme cases, I'll reword what I said. Skill is exponentially more important than speed in almost all cases, because the amount of speed it takes to form a noticeable advantage is considerably greater than the amount of skill it takes to give one character an edge in a fight.

Jar Jar has just about no skill anyway. Most of his showings are dumb luck. Somebody as skilful as Yoda could potentially predict his movements and still counter them anyway.

Let's make this simple. Unless the speed disparity is such that one character cannot even react (which is not the case here, so I have no idea why it would be brought up), then skill is more important. If one character had an edge in speed, and the other an equal edge but in skill, then the more skilful opponent wins. That is a much better analogy than the one you brought up, because my analogy actually reflects Luke and Bane's contest.

2. No, because the one time that he was confronted with Lightning, he was unarmed and it was from Palpatine, somebody faster than Bane. Zannah has repeatedly caught Bane's Lightning blasts on her blade, and she is definitely not any faster or more agile than Luke. In fact, I'd argue that Luke is faster than her and more agile by a limited degree.

I already noted that Bane's telekinesis is greater, but skill has a tendency to be more important (which is what the first novel of the Bane trilogy noted despite Bane having lost duels and won via power before). However, Luke's telekinesis is at least loosely comparable, so Bane would not be able to simply overwhelm him via sheer power. Bane has never displayed verbal Dun Moch in a fight. He displayed Dun Moch through bladework once, but against a featless opponent and frankly there's no reason for it to work here. Luke has utilized reverse Dun Moch.

3. It doesn't really matter. They're equal in speed.

I couldn't possible disagree more that speed > skill. With enough speed, skill isn't needed at all.

Having said that, I don't think Luke at that time and Bane were really that different in speed, but I think Luke was certainly faster. Bane was more adept in a wider variety of techniques, Luke was just a natural and a quicker learner, but far less skilled in Force technique. I think Lukes raw power in the Force was superior to Banes and pretty much all other Sith lords and jedi prior outside of Palpatine and Vader ( my opinion ). But, no question that Bane was more learned and experienced. Luke is the good guy, so he is going to win. If Lukes raw power was grand enough to make Vader drop to his knees in a futile attempt only to block his attacks, Bane is going to get his manhandled up and down the battlefield but would certainly end up surprising luke with a variety of cool techniques Yoda never had time to show him how to defend against.

Lukes raw power and slight speed advantage > Banes skill and experience

What, LOL? You basically just contradicted yourself at least 3 times in that post. Luke is the good guy so he is going to win? K.

Still Luke. Bane has no edges over Luke physically, and skill > power in this context, at least.

Luke has more raw power and strength in the force. This translates to more speed and better defense. Bane has a much much much better knowledge of the force. Luke will be able to defend banes lightsaber assault and bane will be able to defend against Luke's negligibe force assault. Bane will have trouble with Luke's lightsaber assault and Luke will have troubled with banes multitude of attacks with the force. Banes experience dueling more jedi and sith than Luke is offset by vader being such powerful competition. Luke wins 4.5/10. Bane wins 4.5/10. The tenth time they agree the fight isn't going anywhere and decide to discuss the intricacies of the force over a cup of caf and maybe some juma juice

Bane is not Vader's equal.

Luke was also emotionally conflicted and didn't even want to fight, until the very end when he battered down Vader's defense.

@dominis: He might have been referring to Drew Karpyshyn claiming Bane, Revan and Vader are about equal. Of course, that's an unofficial opinion and I disagree with that but to each their own.

@dominis: rough equal. And thats is not my own opinion but those of some people around me. I believe a Bane vs Vader thread could be good if bane had orbalisks but Revan isnt close to either. Vader lost his battle with Luke because of CIS. Like his battle with Obi Wan. An angry but level heades Anakin (like the one that beat Dooku) would of beat Obi and Im sure the same goes for his fight with Luke.

Anakin was not level-headed when he defeated Dooku.

@shootingnova:

I agree. I'd take his opinion more seriously if he was the one who wrote Vader's character.

A lot of people are also of the opinion that Bane is a peer of Sidious too, which he doesn't even approach Sidious in any area. Orbalisk Bane may be close to Vader, though I still find Vader's powers to be more potent, with Bane's only advantage being lightning, and the fact that his orbalisks are saber resistant, limiting Vader's range of targets with his blade.

Vader lost to Luke when Luke no longer held back and allowed his hate to momentarily take over him. Before that, however, they both were emotionally conflicted and were fighting rather equally. It's very likely Vader was holding back tremendously with his force powers and could have demolished Luke with, which is something Luke later muses about.

@dominis: exactly. Vader was letting his emotions distract him when he could of been following orders and butchering his son like the good little cyborg slave he is

@shootingnova: but he also wasn't pulling his pushes or whining about Padme

@darth_necray: I don't know what you are talking about. What does that remark have to do with Anakin vs Dooku?

@shootingnova: You said he wasnt level headed which is true. But he wasn't pulling his pushes or whining about Padme either

ROTJ Luke? Uhh.. Bane stomps.

@shootingnova: does that make sense?

@darth_necray: No, it doesn't. Anakin not complaining about Padme is irrelevant to whether or not he was level-headed. He was completely blinded by his anger and he used it to kill Dooku.

@shootingnova: Which he could of done to Obi Wan in the climax if he wasn't whining about her

@darth_necray: He was hindered in that instance, which has nothing to do with him being amplified against Dooku. I have no idea why we've gone this far off-topic from RotJ Luke vs Darth Bane.

Interesting. This could go either way depending on wether Bane will use the Force against Luke or not. If he does, he ragdolls him. Luke is on Obi-Wan's level and the latter was shamed by Maul. Bane, while heavily overrated by many people, should be at least more powerful than Maul, and if he uses the Force, he will stomp. In terms of lightsaber ability, however, Luke is more or less on Vader's level and vastly above Bane, who could provide a moderate challenge to him, but nothing more. And considering that Bane doesn't tend to use his power much in duels, Luke should take this.

@dominis

A lot of people are also of the opinion that Bane is a peer of Sidious too, which he doesn't even approach Sidious in any area. Orbalisk Bane may be close to Vader, though I still find Vader's powers to be more potent, with Bane's only advantage being lightning, and the fact that his orbalisks are saber resistant, limiting Vader's range of targets with his blade.

Vader lost to Luke when Luke no longer held back and allowed his hate to momentarily take over him. Before that, however, they both were emotionally conflicted and were fighting rather equally. It's very likely Vader was holding back tremendously with his force powers and could have demolished Luke with, which is something Luke later muses about.

He, I somehow doubt that Orbalisk Bane is below Vader. His best feat is disintegrating technobeasts, and Vader has never displayed anything like that. And while Bane was amped by a nexus, a case could probably be made that those beasts were amped as well, considering that they are Sith spawn. Other than that he should win in a fight because of durability, and because his speed is almost as good as Anakin's, though this might not be truly relevant considering that Ventress had no problem with him, and I doubt she is faster than Vader.

Vader would have undoubtedly stomped Luke with the Force had he so chosen. Less powerful people than him like Maul and Dooku can also do the same. Bane, being on that level would be able to stomp as well.

@dominis

Vader has threw ships with the force, force crushed an entire tie fighter midflight, force blasted through concrete and metal structures, demolished entire fortresses, etc. So, yes, the sheer power of Vader's TK output seems to be above Orbalisk Bane's.

I'm fully aware of Vader's feats, having created a complete respect thread for him. For that matter, he also hurled and likely killed a group of 5 Jedi with a telekinetic wave. When did he demolish entire fortresses? He only collapsed a cathedral. And just to ask, would you elevate blasting through durasteel doors to the same level as disintegrating technobeasts? I personally don't.

And no, I don't think Vader is better than Orbalisk Bane, and he should actually be below him. Orbalisk Bane is actually more approachable to Plagueis, who is noticeably if not considerably more powerful than Vader.

I'm not so sure of that, unless the technobeasts in question were force sensitives before becoming technobeats. Just because something is created or enhanced by a sith does not mean they can draw on the force like a normal force user. The creation of technobeasts was the result of something similar to a plaque, which did cause a creature or individual to become like durable and dangerous creature, but not exactly make them force sensitive. But if you have a reason as to how a DS nexus would have an effect on them, then I'm willing to hear you out, and may even be convinced, but so far, my understanding on how a DS nexus works and how enhances a dark side force user, I'm not seeing how it would apply on a technobeast.

I don't have conclusive evidence for that, but I recall that those beasts were empowered by Belia Darzu's holocron, and obviously they would be amped by a nexus just by being there wouldn't they?

Vader has fought and kept up with groups of jedi far before his prime, and not yet fully accustomed to his suit; he has moved his saber fast enough as to form a shield, and has easily deflected waves of blaster bolts. I don't see much of a speed disparity, if any. Vader is not as agile as he once was, but I don't think Bane is faster than he is.

Back to the topic, though, @shootingnova, what is Luke's best TK feat by this point?

When did Vader form a shield out of his blade? Regardless, Orbalisk Bane is certainly faster than Vader having moved his blade so fast that it appeared to be everywhere at once (and that was Zannah describing Bane's speed, which makes the feat more impressive) and generated a dozen afterimages. This probably wouldn't trouble Vader too much, but it is worth noting. Vader should be on par with or better than DOE Bane, though.

@dominis: Luke supported an AT-ST (in mid-air, IIRC).

I don't even see how anybody could argue for Luke here. This is ROTJ luke specified by the OP, not the EU Luke. He is slow and nowhere near as skilled as Bane. I'm also seeing people say they are the same in terms of physical strength? How? Care to show where you got that information? Bane is a peak human and was described as being a mountain of muscle. He kicked a brotherhood of darkness members skull in against a rock with one blow. Bane is a far better duelist, by the time of DOE he was better than Kasim,the Korriban sith academies lightsaber teacher and arguably one of the best duelists during that time in the galaxt stated by the narrator. Kasim killed a Rancor on Leehon with ease in a few seconds with his speed and agility. What did ROTJ luke do against a rancor? He almost died. Bane was a blur when he fought, you couldn't even see him. I'm sorry, I just don't see how you people can say ROTJ luke would win, it throws all sense of reason out the window. It's clear Bane would win.

Bane is better Force user, but Luke gets him on the lightsaber combat. I think that Luke takes this like 7/10.

This is not movie Luke ,"ROTJ" indicates the timeline and Luke's character from A New Hope up until and including Return of the Jedi, which includes all of his feats from the comics, novels, and source books (EU) over that time. So yes, this is ROTJ which includes his feats from EU withing his ROTJ and previous incarnation/showings. This Bane vs Luke from the ROTJ timeline, both have EU feats included or else the OP would've corrected people mentioning Luke feats/info from the novels, comics, sourcebooks, throughout this entire thread.

@okayalright_44: Still don't think he wins. That was my mistake however with the OP. The exaggerated and pompous "no" isn't necessary. Thank you.

Oh my bad. I didn't mean to leave those backslashes and "no" in my post. My computer and key board was acting up when I was writing it. I apologize for the mixed signals.