ROTJ Darth Vader vs. Asajj Ventress/Quinlan Vos

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GeorgeWBush

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*Neutral ground location

Round 1: Standard duel

Round 2: All fighters are bloodlusted

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vs.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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Ventress/Vos.

Vader.

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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ShootingNova

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#5  Edited By ShootingNova
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PLAYA1

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Vader in both.

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Penderor

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Night4345

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Either way.

Vader.

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juiceboks

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#9 juiceboks  Moderator

Vader isn't beating both in a duel, his only edges being strength and durability aren't enough to beat two duelists that are at LEAST comparable to him.

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PLAYA1

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Vader isn't beating both in a duel, his only edges being strength and durability aren't enough to beat two duelists that are at LEAST comparable to him.

Except that Vader is in a whole other ballpark compared to Quinlan, both with regards to raw skill and with regards to Force mastery.

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juiceboks

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#11 juiceboks  Moderator

@playa1: That's why a duelist on Vader's level ie Ventress is there. She's already familiar with compensating for opponents that sport strength edges, so Vader's striking power isn't that great of an advantage. Vader could edge a slight majority against her alone, but with Vos running interference I don't see him coming out on top.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Round 1: Ventress and Vos.

Round 2: Vader, only because his raw Force power is literally on another plain from the other two.

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jrupert1

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Vader both rounds. Vos is cannon fodder in comparison to Vader and even Ventress with that help wont be enough. She was a match for Anakin before the end of the Clone Wars but not Vader in his prime. Even before reaching his peak as Vader he took out comparable Jedi who had better help.

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juiceboks

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#14  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

@devilsmaydie: Who has Vader beaten with aid backing them that's comparable to Vos?

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Pharoh_Atem

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#15  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

The only Jedi Vader has beaten/stalemated that was comparable to Asajj Ventress was ANH Obi-Wan, Starkiller and maybe ESB Luke Skywalker, if we take that quote from Fightsaber serious. Regardless, Vader had to work to achieve what he did each and every time.

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WollfMyth209

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Round 1 goes to the Team and round 2 goes to Vader since he'll abuse his TK.

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DarthManhunter

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#17  Edited By DarthManhunter

Round 1- Team 6-7/10.

Round 2- Vader 8-9/10.

I think Vader is strong and durable enough to compete with these two in sabers. He might not win a majority agisnt their combined effort but is clearly skilled enough to compete with them. For round 2 I'm fairly certain he can and will employ his powerful TK abilities while attacking with saber overwhelming the team a majority of the time.

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jrupert1

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#18  Edited By jrupert1

@juiceboks said:

@devilsmaydie: Who has Vader beaten with aid backing them that's comparable to Vos?

One month after being put in the suit he took on 7 Jedi masters and 1 Jedi knight at once. Ventress has struggled with every master she has been shown fighting, like Luminara. Yes Vader sustained minor injuries in that fight but ignoring that this was well before he peaked and got used to the suit, they used tactics where it was "stop him at all costs." Then he would go on to kill other Jedi, several more masters. He definitely has the feats. And statements by the creators putting him above their level. Even in the current canon comics he has done things with the force beyond either's wildest dreams

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Pharoh_Atem

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Fodder Force Sensitives have been killed by zombies - Vader beating a bunch of nameless goons doesn't put him far above Ventress as a duelist.

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juiceboks

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#20  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

@devilsmaydie: He fought 8 featless Jedi and didn't even beat all of them. Only 4 IIRC. Ventress never struggled with Luminara, in fact Luminara would have died had she not have been saved by Ahsoka. Ventress has also held her own against Anakin and Obi-Wan multiple times, sometimes even at the same time. I'm well aware of Vader's feats, and they're not enough to suggest he'd treat Voss as if he wasn't there and steamroll Ventress. Not at all.

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Pharoh_Atem

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@juiceboks:

Ventress has also held her own against Anakin and Obi-Wan multiple times, sometimes even at the same time.

TCW Mega-series has an extreme habit of that, don't they? Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan, Anakin vs Dooku and Ventress, Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul and Savage Opress, etc,etc.

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TheVivas

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Some of those Jedi Vader fought even killed each other...

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deactivated-5bfd5d714c687

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Vader both rounds

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#24  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

@dccomicsrule2011: Yea they do seem to go out of their way to pair the main Jedi/Sith of the season against each other as much as possible. Even if it doesn't necessarily make sense skill-wise. I don't think Asajj is skilled enough to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time personally, then again she was on the defensive for the most part so it's not like she had a chance to win.

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jrupert1

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#25  Edited By jrupert1

@juiceboks said:

@devilsmaydie: He fought 8 featless Jedi and didn't even beat all of them. Only 4 IIRC. Ventress never struggled with Luminara, in fact Luminara would have died had she not have been saved by Ahsoka. Ventress has also held her own against Anakin and Obi-Wan multiple times, sometimes even at the same time. I'm well aware of Vader's feats, and they're not enough to suggest he'd treat Voss as if he wasn't there and steamroll Ventress. Not at all.

I didn't necessarily say that, but he is superior to Vos in skill and by far in control of the force, such that even together it wouldn't be too much for Vader. Meaning he could take him out before the duo overwhelm him. Round 1 doesn't mean they can't use the force, they're not bloodlusted but Vader doesnt' need to be.

My point with posting the feat of a battle where he was outnumbered is that it's not the end all to a fight. Heck that was a staple of the Clone Wars series, no matter how someone fared in a 1 on 1 they managed just as fine in a 2 on 1. As for Ventress and Luminara, it's not that she outclassed her like you make it seem. You forget she was partially blinded by steam. And what Ventress landed was a kick, she used that time to cause pipes to fall and land on her. Her having to be saved was a situational thing. There are plenty of those as well, just look at Obi-Wan and Grievous bouts for that.

Yes Vader eventually got help by the 501st but the feat should not be ignored as he still took them on and he was still new to the suit. This battle is Vader at his peak where he was stated as a Sith Lord whose power was second only to Sidious'. And those Jedi weren't exactly all featless, and it's not like the order just gives the rank of master to everybody. Vader also killed An'ya Kuro who is anything but featless and Kento Marek. And if you want to get technical, what great Jedi did she kill based on her skill that aren't featless Jedi?

I'm not saying Vader stomps both rounds but he does have what it takes to take it.

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juiceboks

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#26  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

@devilsmaydie:

Any skill edge Vader has over Ventress is marginal. The only clear edges he has over her is that he's stronger and more durable, while she's more agile and is used to fighting physically imposing characters ie Savage and Anakin himself. Vader's only chance at beating her and Vos is if he abuses his TK edge which he won't do for a majority.

That fight isn't comparable to this scenario for several reasons. The main of which being that they were featless Jedi. There's really no reason why Ventress wouldnt be able to perform just as well as Vader if not better. Like I said, he didn't even come out on top. I never said or alluded to the notion that Luminara was outclassed, at all. You made the claim that Ventress struggled with Luminara, which is far from the truth. Everything that happened to Luminara was caused by Ventress due to her superior combat skill. Ventress has better feats, so she had her dead to rights. Bringing up Luminara doesn't help your case.

Again with the red herrings. Kuro and Marek aren't comparable to Ventress in anything(well Marek is but that was a hard fought win), so there's no reason to even bring them up. I don't have to attempt to bring up any Jedi Ventress has beaten that are comparable to Vader because I never said she would beat Vader on her own. In fact I explicitly stated she would lose a majority to him. I asked you to show me anything Vader has done to suggest he would beat not only a duelist who's on the same skill level but one who's at most a tier behind them at the same time. Instead you referred to a feat that I was already well aware of and has very little to do with this scenario.

Vader isn't winning a majority in R1.

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Night4345

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@juiceboks: is used to fighting physically imposing characters ie Savage and Anakin himself.

And has a bad record against them.

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#28  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

@night4345: Not true at all. She had an environmental disadvantage against Savage and even then didn't lose.

She only lost to Anakin in the OCW IIRC and even then that was a VERY hard fought win(I personally believe he was amped towards the end by his emotions but that's my opinion). Every other time they fought it was at best a stalemate. None of this invalidates my point, which isn't that Ventress would beat Vader on her own.

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ShootingNova

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Anakin has beaten Ventress outside of OCW, and that fight involved them being on a DS nexus, but yes, they were evenly matched until Anakin became enraged.

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juiceboks

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#30 juiceboks  Moderator

@shootingnova: When specifically has she lost to him? I don't recall off the top of my head.

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@juiceboks: She loses in TCW once or twice, and she loses in the comics as well. Republic, I believe.

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#32 juiceboks  Moderator

@shootingnova: I haven't read Republic so I'll take your word for that. Can you point to a fight in TCW where she lost? I only recall 4 encounters and none of them had clear winners.

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@juiceboks: She got wrecked in one of the later fights but she didn't have a lightsaber. Then she has one against the two of them, which was pretty dumb. I'll try and find something.

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#34 juiceboks  Moderator

@shootingnova: I do recall that encounter but like you said she didn't have her lightsabers so I wouldn't count that as a fair win.

Alright.

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#35  Edited By jrupert1

@juiceboks: Hardly marginal by this point in time. And why wouldn't Vader take advantage of his TK superiority? Assuming she'd do as well against so many Jedi is a major amount of assuming. And he did come out on top, just some injuries, yes he had clone help at the end but considering he was at this point a far cry from where he'd be ability wise, it more than balances. A second person isn't the end all to a fight as shown many times in Star Wars. If we were to give their abilities number scores, say Vader is a 9, Ventress a 7 (or 8 to be kind) and Vos a 6 (maybe stretch it to a 7), that doesn't equal 13 (or 14 or 15) putting them ahead. The one out of their tier falls, and the better of the remaining (which we both agree is Vader) wins. Look at Kit Fisto, he's one of the best swordsmen in the order, he could take on Grievous, has a comparable gap to Windu as the team in this fight do. As we have seen, it hardly amounted to much against Sidious, who Vader is the closest in power to than anyone else here by far.

As much as I like the Clone Wars series certain things should be taken with a grain of salt. Why does Obi-Wan do just as good against Maul and Savage as he did against 1 of them? And Ventress wasn't going to beat Savage in that fight (the one that involved the 4 of them). By that logic, Vader is superior to Obi-Wan who could take on Maul and Savage, both of which were more than a match on their own for Ventress. Therefore, according to dueling logic of the Clone Wars series Vader should take this. Another example would be both Obi-Wan and Anakin both proving to be better than her, but even together she didn't exactly fall to the them.

And Ventress didn't exactly show clear superiority to Luminara either. Earlier she did just fine against her on her own, even poking fun at her "unrefined" swordsmanship. To say she was clearly superior is making an assumption, so no it didn't hurt my case. My point was to show her against a Jedi master, Luminara isn't in any way top tier in combat. To assume that Luminara is far enough superior to all the masters Vader faced that it's negligible due to their lack of a solid feat history undermines the very points you're making. And again, Vader is far better by RoTJ than he was during that. Just saying.

And you completely underestimate Kuro if you don't think she's comparable to Ventress

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Eisenfauste

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Vos isn't comparable to vader in terms of dueling, but ventress is. Vos becomes a meatshield that allows asajj to kill Vader.

He snaps their necks with TK in round 2

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freesid_stf123

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Team for a slight majority in round 1.

Vader creams in round 2.

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Mije_101

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Dat pic of Ventress

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ShootingNova

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He could win through TK but I doubt it'll happen for a majority except in bloodlusted.

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ROUND 1: Team 6/10

ROUND 2: Vader 8-9/10

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Ventress/Vos.

Vader.

I would say barely on the first, but yeah

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Eisenfauste

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Vos isn't comparable to vader in terms of dueling, but ventress is. Vos becomes a meatshield that allows asajj to kill Vader.

He snaps their necks with TK in round 2

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Round 1:
The Team should win anywhere from a slight, to solid majority here. Asajj Ventress on her own could pose a threat to him in a saber contest, with the back up of Quin they'd win. However, I don't want to rule Vader out completely. He has faced multiple Jedi before, notably the Jedi Enclave, and this was before his prime. So while I do see Vader winning a few rounds, I'd doubt it'd be a majority.

Round 2:
This is a different mater, however. Vader is more than a tier above both as a Force user, and could easily ragdoll both. While they could potentially win a round or two via sheer number and superior skill, Vader takes this round solidly.

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Round 1: Vader. He's better than either of them individually, saber wise and Force wise, and could hold out against both. His hybrid style is unknown to any of them. Ultimately, Ventress would be the first one to fall, as the backbone for Vader's personalized style (Djem So), has great advantages over Makashi, which ROTS Anakin used to beat Count Dooku.

Round 2: Team. A bloodlusted Vos, enraged at the death of his lover, Ventress, beat Dooku. Dooku himself would give Vader a good fight, and Vos would give Vader some, too. With Ventress as a distraction, it would be hard, but Vader would eventually crack, and be cut down.