Rorschach vs 1 Hand Ninja

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CF12793

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Rorschach is an awesome fighter in his world, but let's face it, compared to other street levelers in other comic book worlds, he's like the special needs boy on the Basketball team at your old high school: Good for what he is, but just can't compete with the others. In the Marvel Universe, Hand Ninjas have quite the reputation for being huge jobbers. We've seen many characters take on hordes of them without breaking a sweat. So, can Rorschach, being the skilled fighter that he is, take on just 1 solo Hand ninja?

Fight takes place in an alley in New York City. Both of them get their standard equipment. Rorschach has his grappling gun. He can use anything in the environment to his advantage (i.e. if he finds a garbage can, he can use it as a blunt instrument.)

Fight to K.O or Death. No morals (although I think it's safe to say both of them don't have any)

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FrozenPhoenix

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I honestly thought that there would be a character called "One Hand Ninja" and I said to myself "...that's awesome."

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CF12793

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#3  Edited By CF12793
@frozenphoenix said:

I honestly thought that there would be a character called "One Hand Ninja" and I said to myself "...that's awesome."

OMG, that SHOULD be a character!

Or even more creative, a ninja with no arms. He could wield his katana with his teeth and his feet.

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FrozenPhoenix

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#4  Edited By FrozenPhoenix

@cf12793: Photoshop, here I come....

On topic. With equal weapons Rorschach takes it... but he's rarely armed for battling katanas.

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ComicStooge

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A single Hand Ninja can beat Rorschach.

They can dodge bullets:

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And groups of them can even lay a hand on DD.

If they had 10 Rorschach clones in place of those Hand Ninja, none of them would come close to touching him.

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dondave

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#7  Edited By sync1

Honestly, i think the hand ninja takes it....

Poor Rorschach. :/

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ComicStooge

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Rorschach really is the worst street leveler of all time, outside of the Kick Ass universe.

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Zemoftw

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#9  Edited By Zemoftw

He might be able to take one on. Moon knight and dd each soloed about 100 ninjas....

Then again... Walter is nowhere near their level in hand to hand.

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brucerogers

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He dies. He will never see them coming and he gets a shuriken lodged in his neck.

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Keenko

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If Rorschach manages to beat one, it'd be the fight of his life

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AllStarSuperman

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He can't win.

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nickzambuto

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This is hysterical.

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Zemoftw

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#14  Edited By Zemoftw

@nickzambuto: it's really sad that he can't even beat fodder.?

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Khael

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@sync1 said:

Honestly, i think the hand ninja takes it....

Poor Rorschach. :/

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Zemoftw

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Lets be real here guys. Thugs have given the marvel street level heroes more trouble than hand ninjas. I think walter can win this

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snikt_bamf

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Hm the one battle we know Rorshach looses is the one against a large police force ambushing him.

So I wonder if a one hand ninja would be stronger than a large police force ambushing him? I guess the ninja would loose as well.

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snikt_bamf

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@valor_175:

His "toughness" feats includes (from memory)

- pain is never an issue, he does not even complain about it in his own thougts

- takes pretty hard hits but never gets knocked out completely. Ozymandiaz who is badass stuns him but he is not out and gets up and wants to keep fighting. We don't really know what it takes to KO him, but quite a lot judging from Ozy's punches and that this does not KO him

- Antarctica cold doesn't bother him at all, he takes that in just a trench coat and declines a proper arctic suit when offered one

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Amendment50

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Rorschach wins. Fodder Hand ninja suck.

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johnpeterbanana

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A non-jobbing Hand Ninja should take this IMO.

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snikt_bamf

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@snikt_bamf said:

@valor_175:

His "toughness" feats includes (from memory)

- pain is never an issue, he does not even complain about it in his own thougts

- takes pretty hard hits but never gets knocked out completely. Ozymandiaz who is badass stuns him but he is not out and gets up and wants to keep fighting. We don't really know what it takes to KO him, but quite a lot judging from Ozy's punches and that this does not KO him

- Antarctica cold doesn't bother him at all, he takes that in just a trench coat and declines a proper arctic suit when offered one

Exactly, lol. Also, he's a bit of a ninja himself IIRC.

Watchmen characters are super hard to judge because so little is said.

My own opinion now is that Dr Manhattan is not the only one of them that is meta-human but also: Qzymandiaz, Rorshach, Comedian are meta-human a bit.

It is never stated clearly "we are notmal high trained humans, nobody has superpowers". And none of them takes "normal" humans serious as threats ever, and do things sometimes normal people can't. Mostly Ozymandiaz, but Rorshach being in Antarctica cold in a trenchcoat also makes him metahuman.

They just never say what powers they have, we know Ozzy has super intelligence, coordination and strenght also seems meta-human.

And Rorshach maybe has a healing factor? Or extra tough skin?

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brucerogers

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Hand ninjas are stealthy enough to the point Daredevil has trouble in seeing them coming. Rorschach still gets a shuriken jammed into his neck before he can react.

The ninja does not even need to fight him head on.

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snikt_bamf

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@brucerogers:

Nobody ever snuck up on Rorshach. And you also don't know if a shuriken would take him out.

This punch seems pretty hard, seing it makes his head turn and his hat falls off. Yes he is up and ready to fight on in a jiffy.

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brucerogers

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@snikt_bamf: Nobody in the watchmen universe maybe and that's really not saying much. If these guys can get the drop on someone like Daredevil, then he is not going to see them coming. It's that simple.

Also there is a big difference between taking a punch and getting your jugular, brain or spine pierced with shurikens. He isn't walking away from that.

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snikt_bamf

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#28  Edited By snikt_bamf

@brucerogers said:

@snikt_bamf: Nobody in the watchmen universe maybe and that's really not saying much. If these guys can get the drop on someone like Daredevil, then he is not going to see them coming. It's that simple.

Also there is a big difference between taking a punch and getting your jugular, brain or spine pierced with shurikens. He isn't walking away from that.

You cannot conclude from the fact that you never saw anybody managing to sneak up on him that a hand ninja can do it.

Well I'm just saying we don't know. If we had seen somebody that managed to sneak up on him, we could conclude "OK a standard ninja can do it, this means a hand ninja can do it easily". But we haven't, so we don't know.

Also the punch is not his "max" level of taking punishment, it is in the area of stuff that bother him momentarily. We have no clue what his max is. For all we know, that blow might have taken a ninja's head clean off!

We never saw anybody stab him, so we don't know if he has normal skin. Or if he'd just heal the shuriken wound, like he heals cold damage.

Everybody assumes he is a normal peak-trained human, something like that. But the story never says he is, and also it neever mentions him doing any kind of training whatsoever. He was working in a clothes company, then he finds a piece of tissue he likes, makes his mask and voila like that he is a superhero. No explanation of why a random factory worker with no training can just don a costume and walk out and wreak havoc in the crime world and be a total badass and being completely impossible to fight for normal street levellers.

Seems more to me like he has low-tier superpowers. That he was born with them, maybe because he is a mutant or for some other whatever reason.

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brucerogers

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@snikt_bamf: You cannot conclude from the fact that you never saw anybody managing to sneak up on him that a hand ninja can do it.

Sorry, but that's not how this works. We know that these ninjas can mask their scent, heartbeat, breathing and movements to the point where they can sneak up on Daredevil. You are aware of Daredevil, yes?. His sense of smell is so acute that he can smell blood pressure rising and his hearing is sharp to the point where he can pin point someone countless blocks away in a crowded street through heartbeat alone.

Rorschach needs far better feats than being unable to get sneaked up on by fodder thugs. And rest assured, he doesn't have any. Ergo, he will never see this ninja coming.

Well I'm just saying we don't know. If we had seen somebody that managed to sneak up on him, we could conclude "OK a standard ninja can do it, this means a hand ninja can do it easily". But we haven't, so we don't know.

No. We know that nobody with any actual stealth feats worth a damn has ever tried to sneak up on him. You are verging on no limits fallacy here.

He has no feats to suggest the contrary. Period.

And he did get surprised by run of the mill thugs during Before Watchmen. Just saying.

Also the punch is not his "max" level of taking punishment, it is in the area of stuff that bother him momentarily. We have no clue what his max is. For all we know, that blow might have taken a ninja's head clean off!

Dude, come on now. We clearly saw Ozy beat the crap out of him and in his before watchmen series, he was beaten by thugs so badly that he would have probably died if those kindly diner employees hadn't admitted him to the hospital, where he was out for days. A beating of this level would have not even fazed some of the guys these ninjas have fought.

And he has not shown anywhere near the strength to decapitate people. Don't be silly.

We never saw anybody stab him, so we don't know if he has normal skin. Or if he'd just heal the shuriken wound, like he heals cold damage.

Everybody assumes he is a normal peak-trained human, something like that. But the story never says he is, and also it neever mentions him doing any kind of training whatsoever. He was working in a clothes company, then he finds a piece of tissue he likes, makes his mask and voila like that he is a superhero. No explanation of why a random factory worker with no training can just don a costume and walk out and wreak havoc in the crime world and be a total badass and being completely impossible to fight for normal street levellers.

Seems more to me like he has low-tier superpowers. That he was born with them, maybe because he is a mutant or for some other whatever reason.

..................

Dude I am sorry but this is downright ludicrous. There is not indication whatsoever that he is anything more than a low tier street leveller. By your logic, this ninja hasn't fought Dr Manhattan so I guess he beats him and there is no way to prove otherwise.

He is superhuman according to the standards of our world, peak human according to the standards of his world but a low level street leveller when compared to the peak humans from mainstream DC and Marvel.

Being a badass is subjective and is not a feat. He or any street leveller from Watchmen would get fodderized by the one's from DC or Marvel simply due to having far better feats.

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Vertigo-

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Rorschach will never know what hit him

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snikt_bamf

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#31  Edited By snikt_bamf

@brucerogers:

"There is not indication whatsoever that he is anything more than a low tier street leveller"

Wrong, the indications are

- he has superhuman resistance to cold. A peak human cannot be in Antarctica in a trench coat, you die in minutes. Bur Rosshach does not die in minutes, he is absolutely fine, this means he is not normal and has powers.

- pain does not afflict him, he does not seem to experience it. He does not get wounded or spend some time getting over anything.

Those two things are not normal. It means he has superpowers.

- he does not consider street levellers a threat at all, he treats them like they are kids to him (weak I admit, since he could just be crazy lol)

This is an indication he is more than them, since if he was "normal" he'd for instance be a bit vary of going into a bar full of guys that hates his guts. But they are all super afraid of him, and doesn't tale the chance to gang up on him. If he was just normal they could do that, but they don't so he isn't.

Ozzy I count as metahuman plus Ozzy did not "beat the crap out of him", this is simply not true and not what happens in the comic. Ozzy gets hits in yes, but Rorshach gets up and wants to fight on. Then Nightowl says "hey lets stop fighting" and it stops. Rorshach afterwards shows no signs whatsoever of being uncomfortable or in pain or anything, he is absolutely fine, which he would not be if he had gotten the "crap beaten out of him".

The before Watchmenn stuff is not canon.

Your logic would work like this: If Superman was on a planet with only street levellers and nothing stronger to fight, he'd beet all those off course, and you'd conclude "now we now he is no stronger than a street leveller".

Or take a guy that can lift 1000 lbs, you see him lifting 10 lbs no problen and never anything heavier, because there's nothing around that's heavier, then you conclude all he can lift is 10 lbs. Wrong logic! To know his strenght limit we need to know what he cannot lift, when he goes "ooch this is too heavy", and to know Rorshach limit we need to see when he goes "this guy is just to strong for me", and he does not do that ever, so we don't know his upper limit. And from our not-knowing his upper limit, we cannot conclude that we know what it is and that it is very low.

All we know is

Street leveller - he can beat easy

Ozzy - fight starts with Ozzy getting punches in, how it ends we don't know, we also don't know how strong/good Ozzy is.

Large police force ambushing him - he can't beat them. I also do not think 1 hand ninja could beat a large police force on it's own?

Dr Manhattan - he looses instantly lol

My conclusions is Rorshach is low tier metahuman with unknown powers, one of them seems to be a healing factor, there might be more.

Interestingly he never punches anybody, but always uses a weapon; one is tempted to conclude from that that he is not very strong, but has some sort of radar power telling him about all the stuff available, so he prefers to always attack using whatever stuff is around. Or maybe he just doeasn't like to touch people?

If he's got enough stuff up his (smelly) sleeve to beat a hand ninja, we can't tell.

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brucerogers

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#32  Edited By brucerogers

@snikt_bamf:- he has superhuman resistance to cold. A peak human cannot be in Antarctica in a trench coat, you die in minutes. Bur Rosshach does not die in minutes, he is absolutely fine, this means he is not normal and has powers.

Nothing really that impressive about that. In comics, people have literally walked on the snow while scantily clad or even less. If you mean by real world standards, yes it's impressive but still not impossible.

- pain does not afflict him, he does not seem to experience it

You mean like how failed to shrug off stuff that even scrub tier characters in mainstream comics would done so easily?. Like him failing to escape the cops by jumping out of the window, landing wrong and breaking his ankle. And this was after Before Watchmen btw.

And even then, pain tolerance will not save him from dying via blood loss, brain or spinal damage when he gets projectiles lodged in the vital areas or hacked by weapons.

- he does not consider street levellers a threat at all, he treats them like they are kids to him (weak I admit, since he could just be crazy lol)

I will take this statement seriously when he has actually beaten anyone worth a damn. His insanity isn't going to save him from dying here either.

Those two things are not normal. It means he has superpowers.

Again, he seems superhuman when you compare him to our dull and boring real life standards. In comics however, you have guys do junk like weave around gunfire effortlessly, launch people in the air with strikes, stomp a gang of armed opponents ranging from thugs to trained soldiers without breaking a sweat, shrug off multiple bullets wounds, master stuff within a fraction of the time required by even vastly talented real life people, suffer no permanent injuries. etc etc. And this is just the bare minimum for a street leveller.

So in comparison to this, he is nothing to write home about. Especially when he failed to perform a relatively simple escape and beat some fodder cops.

Ozzy I count as metahuman plus Ozzy did not "beat the crap out of him", this is simply not true and not what happens in the comic. Ozzy gets hits in yes, but Rorshach gets up and wants to fight on. Then Nightowl says "hey lets stop fighting" and it stops. Rorshach afterwards shows no signs whatsoever of being uncomfortable or in pain or anything, he is absolutely fine, which he would not be if he had gotten the "crap beaten out of him".

Ozy himself is not that high up the street level food chain either, when you take him out of the comforts of the very grounded watchmen universe and place him in any of the big two. Or more specifically, compared to the guys these ninjas have fought. Let alone a metahuman.

And I really suggest you re read the fight. Adrian was essentially toying with both Walter and Dan since his main objective wasn't to kill or even cripple them. But to essentially explain his already executed plan.

That still does not equate to getting peppered by sharp objects, like I claimed in my very first reply to you.

The before Watchmenn stuff is not canon.

Oh, it is very much canon. Both are published by DC and there is no indication that it is not. Moore's personal opinion notwithstanding.

Your logic would work like this: If Superman was on a planet with only street levellers and nothing stronger to fight, he'd beet all those off course, and you'd conclude "now we now he is no stronger than a street leveller".

Or take a guy that can lift 1000 lbs, you see him lifting 10 lbs no problen and never anything heavier, because there's nothing around that's heavier, then you conclude all he can lift is 10 lbs. Wrong logic! To know his strenght limit we need to know what he cannot lift, when he goes "ooch this is too heavy", and to know Rorshach limit we need to see when he goes "this guy is just to strong for me", and he does not do that ever, so we don't know his upper limit.

Um...no. I don't think you understood what I am getting at. Allow me to break them down and explain it the best I can.

In your Superman example, we already know that he can effortlessly shake the planet earth with his hits, move and fight at near lightspeed, laugh at a million nuclear bombs, emit heat vision hotter than a star and so on. So it's only logical that street levellers would be less than ants to him in terms of a threat. Rorschach is none of this, obviously and hasn't shown any feats to suggest he can do any of the stuff you claimed.

So, to say your example was off the mark would be an understatement.

And in your own weightlifting example, if I see a guy lift 1000 lbs I will not jump the shark and assume he can lift 5 tons just because he hasn't lifted 10 tons or struggled yet. That's just flawed and fallacious thinking. Rorschach being the metaphorical weight lifter here, the thugs of his universe being the 1000 lbs weight and this hand ninja being the 5 ton one.

Until he shows feats, he cannot do it. End of story.

street leveller - he can beat easy

Seriously, name one street leveller worth something he has beaten even in his own universe. Let alone the kind of guys the hand has fought who would eat Ozymandias for breakfast.

Ozzy - fight starts with Ozzy getting pounches in, how it ends we don't know

Except Ozy was toying with him and wasn't trying to kill or even cripple him.

Large police force ambushing him - he can't beat

He only kept them at bay via sneak attacks and he even failed to make a successful gateway by falling and breaking his ankle. These cops would have died bloody by your average hand ninja.

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mickey-mouse

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The one that doesn't get beat up by a group of thugs wins...

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Sy8000

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The ninja. This would be only be debatable if it were movie Rorschach and we were considering their low showings.

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mr-luxcipher

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Hand ninja.

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deactivated-6081fb94189dc

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Rorschach.

Hand ninjas are Fake ultimate mooks

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KigreTheViking

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IDK...Rorschach maybe?

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Necromancer76

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Hopefully Rorschach...

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Zemoftw

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#39  Edited By Zemoftw

@snikt_bamf: dude rorshach is not superhuman at all. The watchmen characters cant compete with anyone other than the kick ass characters.

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Zemoftw

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Imho, street thug= hand ninja. They get beaten in hordes by the likes of daredevil, moon knight, iron fist, and bullseye. Thugs have given these guys more trouble at times. This is a pretty even fight as both are at thug level

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LDM

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Ninja

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snikt_bamf

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@zemoftw:

@snikt_bamf:- he has superhuman resistance to cold. A peak human cannot be in Antarctica in a trench coat, you die in minutes. Bur Rosshach does not die in minutes, he is absolutely fine, this means he is not normal and has powers.

Nothing really that impressive about that. In comics, people have literally walked on the snow while scantily clad or even less. If you mean by real world standards, yes it's impressive but still not impossible.

- pain does not afflict him, he does not seem to experience it

You mean like how failed to shrug off stuff that even scrub tier characters in mainstream comics would done so easily?. Like him failing to escape the cops by jumping out of the window, landing wrong and breaking his ankle. And this was after Before Watchmen btw.

And even then, pain tolerance will not save him from dying via blood loss, brain or spinal damage when he gets projectiles lodged in the vital areas or hacked by weapons.

- he does not consider street levellers a threat at all, he treats them like they are kids to him (weak I admit, since he could just be crazy lol)

I will take this statement seriously when he has actually beaten anyone worth a damn. His insanity isn't going to save him from dying here either.

Those two things are not normal. It means he has superpowers.

Again, he seems superhuman when you compare him to our dull and boring real life standards. In comics however, you have guys do junk like weave around gunfire effortlessly, launch people in the air with strikes, stomp a gang of armed opponents ranging from thugs to trained soldiers without breaking a sweat, shrug off multiple bullets wounds, master stuff within a fraction of the time required by even vastly talented real life people, suffer no permanent injuries. etc etc. And this is just the bare minimum for a street leveller.

So in comparison to this, he is nothing to write home about. Especially when he failed to perform a relatively simple escape and beat some fodder cops.

Ozzy I count as metahuman plus Ozzy did not "beat the crap out of him", this is simply not true and not what happens in the comic. Ozzy gets hits in yes, but Rorshach gets up and wants to fight on. Then Nightowl says "hey lets stop fighting" and it stops. Rorshach afterwards shows no signs whatsoever of being uncomfortable or in pain or anything, he is absolutely fine, which he would not be if he had gotten the "crap beaten out of him".

Ozy himself is not that high up the street level food chain either, when you take him out of the comforts of the very grounded watchmen universe and place him in any of the big two. Or more specifically, compared to the guys these ninjas have fought. Let alone a metahuman.

And I really suggest you re read the fight. Adrian was essentially toying with both Walter and Dan since his main objective wasn't to kill or even cripple them. But to essentially explain his already executed plan.

That still does not equate to getting peppered by sharp objects, like I claimed in my very first reply to you.

The before Watchmenn stuff is not canon.

Oh, it is very much canon. Both are published by DC and there is no indication that it is not. Moore's personal opinion notwithstanding.

Your logic would work like this: If Superman was on a planet with only street levellers and nothing stronger to fight, he'd beet all those off course, and you'd conclude "now we now he is no stronger than a street leveller".

Or take a guy that can lift 1000 lbs, you see him lifting 10 lbs no problen and never anything heavier, because there's nothing around that's heavier, then you conclude all he can lift is 10 lbs. Wrong logic! To know his strenght limit we need to know what he cannot lift, when he goes "ooch this is too heavy", and to know Rorshach limit we need to see when he goes "this guy is just to strong for me", and he does not do that ever, so we don't know his upper limit.

Um...no. I don't think you understood what I am getting at. Allow me to break them down and explain it the best I can.

In your Superman example, we already know that he can effortlessly shake the planet earth with his hits, move and fight at near lightspeed, laugh at a million nuclear bombs, emit heat vision hotter than a star and so on. So it's only logical that street levellers would be less than ants to him in terms of a threat. Rorschach is none of this, obviously and hasn't shown any feats to suggest he can do any of the stuff you claimed.

So, to say your example was off the mark would be an understatement.

And in your own weightlifting example, if I see a guy lift 1000 lbs I will not jump the shark and assume he can lift 5 tons just because he hasn't lifted 10 tons or struggled yet. That's just flawed and fallacious thinking. Rorschach being the metaphorical weight lifter here, the thugs of his universe being the 1000 lbs weight and this hand ninja being the 5 ton one.

Until he shows feats, he cannot do it. End of story.

street leveller - he can beat easy

Seriously, name one street leveller worth something he has beaten even in his own universe. Let alone the kind of guys the hand has fought who would eat Ozymandias for breakfast.

Ozzy - fight starts with Ozzy getting pounches in, how it ends we don't know

Except Ozy was toying with him and wasn't trying to kill or even cripple him.

Large police force ambushing him - he can't beat

He only kept them at bay via sneak attacks and he even failed to make a successful gateway by falling and breaking his ankle. These cops would have died bloody by your average hand ninja.

Different comic universes have different realities. You can't arbitrarily import standards from one reality to another, and say "and this comic reality normal people can be in Antarctica in street clothes without superpowers, therefore the same goes in another comic reality":

If you could do that it would be admissable to judge from Tom & Jerry, where a normal cat can be cut in dice, cooked, and then is fine 2 minutes later, and say "Hey Wolverine does not have any superpowers, wha he does it what any normal cat can do in comics".

In Marvel unverse cats die if you cut them into dice, therefore a cat surviving that must have superpowers. In Watchmen universe people die from cold, therefore Rorshach must have superpowers.

You don't understand my Superman example. The idea was we had the Superman character from just a mini-issue, and in this story he has no occasion to lift anything heavier than say 50lbs. Even though he can liftt 100 of tons, you'd think his max was 50 lbs, because according to you "the heaviest I see him lift is necessarily the max".

By the same logic i could claim that the heaviest Jonah J Jameson can lift is ONE pen (at least I never saw him lift more lol), and THREE PENS it just to heavy for him to lift, because we have not seen him lift 3 pens at the same time. Wheras by my logic, we'd have to assume his pen is not his max, and we must accept we just do not know for sure how many Lbs Jonah J Jameson can bench press.

Or like if I would deny Batman is able to use a microwave oven because there are no place in the comic where he cooks food in a microwave. I'd say more "We have no specific feat that shows he knows how to use a microwave oven, but because he routinely uses more difficult machienery, it is reasonable to assume he can figure out to use a microwave".

The street levellers he beats are uhm all the guys Rorshach fights. He is written as having been a rome fighter for decades and the criminals in the bar fears him a lot. So evidntly normal criminals is no problem for him at all.

Rorshach fights mobsters also, and it is mentiond he destroyed criminal cartels. Now if a ninja can easily overpower him, why the mobsters do not just get a ninja and stop him from messing their business? Because mobsters can surely afford a ninja :)

By logic, nothing the mobsters can buy for all their money is enough to stop him; because if it could they would have bought it, therefore Rorshach is on a higher level than ninjas, because a mobster can afford a ninja. Or another kind of trained hitman.

You might argue Ozzi is toying with them, but you also do not know if Ozzie really would win if the fight kept going to the end. We don't know what would have happened because Night Owl cuts the fight short.

There's only 3 fights on all of Watchmen betwee super-guys.

All the rest of the fights are the super guys swatting off normal guys.

So it's pretty much impossible to judge good how strong the super guys really are, because they never get tested much. It's like the fight is between Ozzy whom we don't know how strong he is and Nightowl and Rorshach and we also do not know how strong they are, so we can't say much with certainty.

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@snikt_bamf: imho watchmen are thug level at best with ozy being top tier thug level. The same level as hand ninjas. This fight couls go either way

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brucerogers

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#45  Edited By brucerogers

@snikt_bamf: Different comic universes have different realities. You can't arbitrarily import standards from one reality to another, and say "and this comic reality normal people can be in Antarctica in street clothes without superpowers, therefore the same goes in another comic reality":

Some comic universes have nuanced differences sure, but in all of them, stuff like fire, snowfall, lightning, terminal velocities, earthquakes or any natural disaster for that matter all virtually do the same kind of damage and are assumed to do so unless stated otherwise. For your point to make sense you have to prove that the blizzard experienced by them in Antarctica is much worse than the one that falls in the Marvel universe.

Given how silly that notion is, you cannot. Thus it makes no sense to argue otherwise.

If you could do that it would be admissable to judge from Tom & Jerry, where a normal cat can be cut in dice, cooked, and then is fine 2 minutes later, and say "Hey Wolverine does not have any superpowers, wha he does it what any normal cat can do in comics".

Tom and Jerry....really mate?. Does the phrase apples and oranges mean anything to you?. Tom and Jerry is a cartoon rules by toonforce and unless you are trying to say that toonforce exists in the Watchmen universe or that Rorschach is powered by it, this comparison is as irrelevant as comparisons go.

Wolverine does not operate on toonforce either, in case you weren't aware.

In Marvel unverse cats die if you cut them into dice, therefore a cat surviving that must have superpowers. In Watchmen universe people die from cold, therefore Rorshach must have superpowers.

I am sorry, but this sounds so ludicrous that you should forgive me for thinking that you are trolling. If you are indeed serious, look at my point above for toonforce.

And you are really overselling that snow feat there. All it does is show that he is somewhat more resistant to cold than a normal person. That's really nothing to brag so much about.

You don't understand my Superman example. The idea was we had the Superman character from just a mini-issue, and in this story he has no occasion to lift anything heavier than say 50lbs. Even though he can liftt 100 of tons, you'd think his max was 50 lbs, because according to you "the heaviest I see him lift is necessarily the max".

So this is essentially Superman who has done nothing that makes him Superman in the first place?. So why call him Superman at all?. Implied titles means nothing without feats.

And this example still doesn't help your case because he can indeed lift 100 tons (by your own admission) and this is a solid feat that puts him far above that 50 lbs range, obviously. In Rorschach's case, he has no such solid feats to suggest the can survive fighting a hand ninja, punch heads off, be anywhere near the same ballpark as the guys the hand fights on a daily basis and countless other baseless claims you have made.

By the same logic i could claim that the heaviest Jonah J Jameson can lift is ONE pen (at least I never saw him lift more lol), and THREE PENS it just to heavy for him to lift, because we have not seen him lift 3 pens at the same time. Wheras by my logic, we'd have to assume his pen is not his max, and we must accept we just do not know for sure how many Lbs Jonah J Jameson can bench press.

Do I really need to explain you the difference between lifting freaking stationary and dodging bullets, punching people through walls and the countless stuff that comic book peak humans do that Rorschach can only dream off?

Or like if I would deny Batman is able to use a microwave oven because there are no place in the comic where he cooks food in a microwave. I'd say more "We have no specific feat that shows he knows how to use a microwave oven, but because he routinely uses more difficult machienery, it is reasonable to assume he can figure out to use a microwave".

Because operating a microwave oven and performing feats at par with mainstream DC/Marvel street levellers is supposed to be the same thing now?.

Seriously man, think before making ridiculous points like this.

The street levellers he beats are uhm all the guys Rorshach fights. He is written as having been a rome fighter for decades and the criminals in the bar fears him a lot. So evidntly normal criminals is no problem for him at all.

By street levellers, you mean fodder thugs?. Cool. That is something even people like Mary Jane Watson, Lois Lane and Alfred have done. Does not put them anywhere near the level of the guys I am talking about.

Which is why I was asking which noteworthy character has he even beaten.

Rorshach fights mobsters also, and it is mentiond he destroyed criminal cartels. Now if a ninja can easily overpower him, why the mobsters do not just get a ninja and stop him from messing their business? Because mobsters can surely afford a ninja :)

You are asking why criminals in the Watchmen verse don't hire hand ninja to do their dirty work for them?. Ohh I dunno, probably because they do not exist in that universe?

Really man....

By logic, nothing the mobsters can buy for all their money is enough to stop him; because if it could they would have bought it, therefore Rorshach is on a higher level than ninjas, because a mobster can afford a ninja. Or another kind of trained hitman.

Do you not understand that the Hand ninja or any noteworthy assassins do not even exist in the Watchmen universe to begin with?. There is next to no indication of Rorschach being important enough for the criminals to constantly send hitmen after him, besides you just making wild assumptions. Even then, fodder hitmen are still fodder.

You might argue Ozzi is toying with them, but you also do not know if Ozzie really would win if the fight kept going to the end. We don't know what would have happened because Night Owl cuts the fight short.

I am not attempting anything. The comic makes it clear as day. Even though the fight was cut short, Ozy still treated both of them like fodder and there is no indication whatsoever that Rorschach was going to turn the tables on him had the fight continued.

There's only 3 fights on all of Watchmen betwee super-guys.

Not so super when compared to the kind of people the Hand fight against.

All the rest of the fights are the super guys swatting off normal guys.

By normal guys, you mean fodder that would't even blip the radar of the Hand due to how insignificant they are.

So it's pretty much impossible to judge good how strong the super guys really are, because they never get tested much. It's like the fight is between Ozzy whom we don't know how strong he is and Nightowl and Rorshach and we also do not know how strong they are, so we can't say much with certainty.

No, it's really not that hard. Please stop pretending like they are One Punch Man or something. We have seen Rorschach almost die from a beating from thugs and that someone like Ozy can toy with him and Nite Owl like they are untrained children. All this proves that he is nowhere near the level required to take on the hand nor does he have the senses or the training to see them coming.

It's really not that complicated.

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snikt_bamf

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#46  Edited By snikt_bamf

@brucerogers:

No snowstorms do not do the same damage in all comic universes. Donald Duck walks across Antarctica with bare legs and ass :) Even Batman could not do that!

This does not mean Donald Duck is a super-powered duck, it means the reality of th Donald Duck-universe is, that it's normal to do that.

Terminal velocities also never kills anybody in the Donald Duck universe.

Watchmen reality is much closer to real reality than Marvel is. Things like snowstorms and guns and thugs are really dangerous in the Watchmen universe. For instance, an old man getting bat up by thugs get killed in Watchmen, whereas in X-Men Xavier in the wheelchair also gets beat up by thugs but just needs to go to hospital. (He had lost his psy that day or something, I forgot why he didn't just zap them.) Also age makes people older in Watchmen, whereas in Marvel universe Johhny Storm has been a young guy for some 60 years now. In Watchmen reality he'd be in retirement now.

You still don't get the Superman example.

That you haven't see Rorshach do something does not ncessarily mean he cannot do it. The sam way that because you never say Jonah J Jameson lift something more heavy than a pen, it does not man he can't do it.

The reasonable assumption is: You look at a guy and take an educated guess at what he can do. My guess with Jonah J Jameson is he can lift the normal weight a normal man his age can lift. Which i more than a pen.

With Rorshach, you need to consider the stuff I mentioned earlier - crimfighting with no training, being WAY above thugs in fighting skill etc - and then we take an educated guess at what his power level is.

And yes Batman and the microwave is perfectly pizza. Your assumption is "if it is not shown in a feat, they can't do it." By this logic: If he have not seen Batman microwave a pizza, he cannot do it. And if we have not seen Captain America babysit a cat for a week, it means "no way he can do it."

That logic if flawed both when applied in Rorshach, Batman and Captain America. There are no feats for microwaving pizzas and babysitting cats, but you look at the character and what he does and make a reasonable assumption "yeah I guess he can do that".

Same way with Rorshach, we look at what he has done, and then we guess at what he can do. And what he did was walk out from being a random factory worker to kicking ass to hardcore criminals. This is not something you can do, just kick ass having zero training or experince, if you dont have powers.

You have no reason to think ninjas do not exist in Watchmen universe. They don't say "there are no ninjas here" at any point. They also do not mention if coconuts or giraffes exist in Watchmen universe, but is is reasonable to assume they do. It's not like a comic book is meant as an "inventory of everything that exists in this reality."

And yes Rorshach is described as having single-handely dismantled criminal cartels, kinda like what Wolverine did in Japan in his old mini-series. It is not mentioned how he did it, but ibviously the magia guys would want to stop him and not get thrown in jail, so they'd use their money to pay people to kill him, only nobody could.

The Rorshach-Ozzy fight - there is no indication how it would have ended. A gazillion comic book fights have been "bad guy slugging good guy around in the beginning, then good guy pulls himself together and wins anyway." It doesn't mean anything, what mans something is who stands up after the entire fight is done.

So many of Spiderman's fights work like this, and if Nightowl always stepped in after the part wher Spidey gets slapped around in the beginning and stopped the fights, you'd think he would loose to everybody if not Nightowl was there to stop the fights.

I still don't take the Before Watchmen stuff as canon. The people that made it meh.

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@snikt_bamf:

No snowstorms do not do the same damage in all comic universes. Donald Duck walks across Antarctica with bare legs and ass :) Even Batman could not do that!

This does not mean Donald Duck is a super-powered duck, it means the reality of th Donald Duck-universe is, that it's normal to do that.

Terminal velocities also never kills anybody in the Donald Duck universe.

You honestly have no concept of toonforce, do you?. Donald duck, Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, Wile E Coyote yadda yadda survive, get injured, die, no sell etc stuff depending upon the gag and the plot. That does not mean the snowstorm is any different than an ordinary one, it just means that they have toonforce to protect them.

Just like how people like Batman can walk without a shirt on a snowstorm. They have their training and toughness to protect them. This again does not make the snowstorm any better or worse than it's supposed to be.

Same for terminal velocity.

All this is completely irrelevant to Rorschach though.

Watchmen reality is much closer to real reality than Marvel is. Things like snowstorms and guns and thugs are really dangerous in the Watchmen universe. For instance, an old man getting bat up by thugs get killed in Watchmen, whereas in X-Men Xavier in the wheelchair also gets beat up by thugs but just needs to go to hospital. (He had lost his psy that day or something, I forgot why he didn't just zap them.) Also age makes people older in Watchmen, whereas in Marvel universe Johhny Storm has been a young guy for some 60 years now. In Watchmen reality he'd be in retirement now.

And the point of this is?

You still don't get the Superman example.

What I don't get is why you think that example is material to Rorschach since they are different, as per your own definition.

That you haven't see Rorshach do something does not ncessarily mean he cannot do it. The sam way that because you never say Jonah J Jameson lift something more heavy than a pen, it does not man he can't do it.

Except I am not saying that Rorschach cannot lift a ballpoint or ring a doorbell, am I?. I know he can do those things by default since every human being with even a mildly functioning brain and even below average human strength can do that. That stuff is natural for us.

But doing the shit comic book peak humans who have fought the hand have done, however?. That's not something you can just assume someone does unless they have shown the feats to do so. Rorschach hasn't so you cannot objectively say he can do it. Period.

With Rorshach, you need to consider the stuff I mentioned earlier - crimfighting with no training, being WAY above thugs in fighting skill etc - and then we take an educated guess at what his power level is.

There is nothing educated about your guess, tbh. Fighting and maiming pissants and nobodies does not mean he will last against an elite ninja cult who have thrown down with the best he Marvel universe has to offer. Street level wise, at least. He does not have the feats to suggest he will not get ghosted and murdered by a hand ninja.

And yes Batman and the microwave is perfectly pizza. Your assumption is "if it is not shown in a feat, they can't do it." By this logic: If he have not seen Batman microwave a pizza, he cannot do it. And if we have not seen Captain America babysit a cat for a week, it means "no way he can do it."

See above for my example with doorbells and a ballpoint pen. There is a big difference between claiming that someone can do everyday simple tasks and claiming someone can fight at DC/Marvel comic book street level. The latter needs hard evidence to back it up.

That logic if flawed both when applied in Rorshach, Batman and Captain America. There are no feats for microwaving pizzas and babysitting cats, but you look at the character and what he does and make a reasonable assumption "yeah I guess he can do that".

Same way with Rorshach, we look at what he has done, and then we guess at what he can do. And what he did was walk out from being a random factory worker to kicking ass to hardcore criminals. This is not something you can do, just kick ass having zero training or experince, if you dont have powers.

You are just repeating yourself now....

You have no reason to think ninjas do not exist in Watchmen universe. They don't say "there are no ninjas here" at any point. They also do not mention if coconuts or giraffes exist in Watchmen universe, but is is reasonable to assume they do. It's not like a comic book is meant as an "inventory of everything that exists in this reality."

..............................................

I guess by this logic, Naruto, Goku and Tywin Lannister also exist in the watchmen universe and Rorschach is secretly Mia Farrow with facial reconstructive surgery. I mean there is no proof that suggests the contrary so I guess we have to accept it. Lolol.

I mean seriously, show me even one panel or instance or even a passing mention of a ninja cult. Do that or quit wasting my time with these nonsensical assumptions.

And yes Rorshach is described as having single-handely dismantled criminal cartels, kinda like what Wolverine did in Japan in his old mini-series. It is not mentioned how he did it, but ibviously the magia guys would want to stop him and not get thrown in jail, so they'd use their money to pay people to kill him, only nobody could.

Nice fanfiction. I don't remember any explicit mention being made about him dismantling drug cartels like he is the Punisher or something but in any case, this boils down to the fodder argument even if it were true. Outfighting them does not mean he can take someone from the Hand.

The Rorshach-Ozzy fight - there is no indication how it would have ended. A gazillion comic book fights have been "bad guy slugging good guy around in the beginning, then good guy pulls himself together and wins anyway." It doesn't mean anything, what mans something is who stands up after the entire fight is done.

One would think that if Rorschach was heroically waiting for his second wind or whatever, he and Nite Owl would at the very least be able to at least land a finger on Ozy instead of failing to do that in spite of attacking him from behind. And all this barely made Adrian waste a bead of sweat like he would have had a better workout at the treadmill.

Or you wouldn't have Rorschach monologue to himself about how he could effortlessly kill the both of them.

So many of Spiderman's fights work like this, and if Nightowl always stepped in after the part wher Spidey gets slapped around in the beginning and stopped the fights, you'd think he would loose to everybody if not Nightowl was there to stop the fights.

Except nobody actually believes Spider-man could have beaten said foe until he actually proves that he could. Which is why readers and the in-universe characters react in surprise when he manages that anyways.

Here is a helpful hint, not every one sided battles involve the stompee eventually getting his shit together and turning the tables on the stomper. Sometimes fights are just one sided.

I still don't take the Before Watchmen stuff as canon. The people that made it meh.

Cool. But you not liking the creators does not make it non canon. That's for DC to decide. Not you, me or even Alan Moore.

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Zemoftw

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@brucerogers: idk what that guy is on about but rorshach has no powers and from what ive seen of him , he's mid tier thug level

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It hurts me to say this, but Rorschach gets stomped here. Shouldn't compare Watchmen characters with Marvel ones.