Roronoa zoro & Erza Scarlet vs Kenpachi Zaraki & Killer Bee

@roronuffy:

Erza has literally island busted. When she clashed with herself way back in Edolas, they ended up busting an island.

Zoro doesn't need AoE city level stuff, the fact that he can cut through steel pre-timeskip is probably enough since no one here's shown steel+ cutting durability to my knowledge. And btw the slowest people aka Lucy and Wendy were dodging sniper bullets. I'm pretty sure Erza's high up there in speed. And no one in Naruto has dodged lightning. Ever. Closest they've done is dodge lightning attacks, but then so has anyone who dodged laxus's attacks in FT.

@lowlaville: Never ever said A was street level. he's far above it. But reacting to teleporting is something street levelers do all the time. That's a fact. And it's not a good speed feat.

@scandy: Of course there are different levels of Haki perceptions for Observation Haki itself. And I actually meant for you to try and prove Sharingan has a similar flaw as Haki.

As for the boat, the fallacy is your psi mention. Its simple speculation based on where the boat was. I'm not questioning where it was.

@darkraiden: The implication you presented were very clear. Fact: A with his best speed, in his prime couldn't react to FTG. Thus, A is street level. This is where another factor why your theory is false comes in. If Minato is street level (reaction speed) as you assume he is, there was no way Minato could even begin to use FTG before activation and being blitzed.

A's fist was less than an inch from Minato's face before he was gone. Implication is clear. Minato in base can react to A at the very least. For FTG to work, it is at least necessary to have a heightened reaction.

You still have not given me any cause to believe there is any relation with street levelers crossverse and mentioned teleporters with FTG, Minato and Tobirama.

Huh? You don't need speed to react to a teleporter, not a lot of it. Again, Deadpool, Spider-Man, Wolverine, etc. street levelers deal with teleporters all the time. I personally think A's much faster than all of them. Also he wasn't in his prime nor with his best speed vs. Minato, and he never failed to react to FTG, the opposite happened and Minato used FTG to react to his blitz.

And again, I never said Minato is street level. i said reacting to a teleporter is street level. That's it.

@darkraiden: What are you even saying? Kenpachi cut through the hardest steel imaginable (literally the hardest steel a reality warped could imagine which has to be several times harder than steel) so Zoro cutting steel is child's play. I can't post scans from my phone but it was chapter 573.

Also Naruto outran A and he can't teleport. A said Naruto was so fast he rivaled the FTG in speed. Now with that in mind remember that even he was not fast enough to land solid hits on Madara, but Sasuke was with his teleportation. Therefor Sasuke>Madara>Naruto>A in speed. Clearly you do not read Naruto if you think any street leveled can react to their teleportation. Also Kakashi reacted to and cut lightning during the akatski arc so you are also wrong about them not dodging lightning.

Now as far as Erza being island busting, if you want to count a tiny floating island in the sky that she only did half of the damage to because she was fighting herself and their two biggest attacks combined destroyed the island than that is fine. Of course if that is true than Kenpachi is continent busting because he destroyed the meteor that was 10x that size by himself.

I'm not even hating on you saying Erza could beat someone here even though I personally don't think she stands a chance. But some of the stuff you're saying about Naruto teleport techniques being being street level and bringing up cutting of steel makes me think you only read fairy tail and none of the other three.

Steel is steel. That's not a better feat than zoro at all. Pretty much the same.

Naruto never outran A. He used shunshin to dodge A's punch one time. And has never shown that type of speed since. And Sasuke teleported Madara into his hit IIRC. And teleporting doesn't make you faster than the person, and neither does tagging someone.

I read Naruto, their teleportation isn't special. And:

1. Kakashi NEVER REACTED TO LIGHTNING. Only Lightning jutsu which was stated to be not the same as normal lightning.

2. street levelers like Spider-Man and Nightcrawler have reacted to lightning. So far you haven't provided anything past their level of speed.

And no, I read Fairy Tail AND Naruto.

And Kenpachi could very well be continent busting, I haven't seen the meteor, till then he's not.

And btw clashing with someone and destroying an island>>destroying an island with an attack. That means the residue and force of your attack destroyed said island. Erza's not weak here.

@darkraiden:

1. Well tempered steel is in fact much stronger than normal steel. You clearly know little about the material world.

2. When has it ever been stated jutsu lightning is not normal? Kishimoto never said that and since you clearly clearly don't even know the difference in tempered steel I'm certainly not going take your word on the speeds of electricities.

3. The fact you just discredited Kenpachi's feat discredits everything you say. Why do we care what you've seen? If you've never seen superman does that mean he can't fly? If you haven't read all of them then you aren't qualified to argue on any of them.

4. Teleportation in Naruto is on top of their already massively hypersonic speeds. You clearly do not read and are not even worth debating further.

1.Why is this important? Pre-Time Skip Zoro can do this with his Gorilla strength.I also don't recall Gremmy saying tempered steel ,so scan please?

2.You're drunk,go home.

Only lightning speed attack confirmed was thunder clap, a high level technique that requires weather manipulation to do so

Said to be hundreds of mach and also said to be unavoidable atleast Pre-Kage Summit.

1. Sure...but zoro cut through a sword, it was likely well tempered steel as well

2. By Sasuke. That's why Kirin was special. It was actual lightning

3. Huh? No Superman can't fly if I've never seen him. Simply because i can't judge/quantify things I haven't seen.

4. They're not massively hypersonic but ok w/e. My point was that countering teleportation isn't special. Bee is IMO faster than Minato w/o FTG. So reacting to a slower opponent who has teleportation is the thing of street levelers. Plain and simple. It wasn't that impressive.

1. Read the whole thread before you post arguments friend. We're all agreed Zoro could cut steel pre-skip. It was some of the other guys here that were trying to argue that because Zoro cut steel he was as strong or stronger than Kenpachi. They also tried to argue that all steel was the same and that Zoro's feat was as impressive as Kenpachi's which is simply not true. Here are the scans that you asked for proving Kenpachi cut something much harder than normal steel and stating that he had the capacity to cut things far beyond even that.

2. I don't know if you are arguing with me or agreeing in a very confrontational manner. I am stating that Naruto characters are beyond hypersonic speeds and can easily react to lightning attacks. Kakashi has demonstrated that he can not only beat lightning to it's target but also intercept it and cut it. Here are the scans showing that.

Also Itachi was able to create Susanoo before being struck by lightning and here are the scans for that.

@roronuffy:

Kakashi didn't react to actual lighnting. Only Itachi did. No one in Naruto is close to massively hypersonic or triple digit mach speeds.

@darkraiden: - Itachi reacts to Cloud to Ground lightning

-Says no one in Naruto is MHS

- Average speed of the Stepped Leader in lightning is Mach 180-600

That's makes no sense whatsoever.

On top of that, 8th Gate Guy is so fast he can bend space. Madara reacted to it. Post SOSP Naruto and Sasuke both blitzed that same Madara.

Naruto characters have been MHS for a while now.

1. Itchi didn't move or anything. He just thought/activated a technique.

2. Again, STREET LEVELERS who aren't even mach speeds have reacted to lightning

3. Guy was also outpaced by a kunai. He's slow.

@darkraiden: 1. It doesn't matter if he moved or not. It still gives him MHS reaction speed, and plenty of current characters could blitz him.

2. That's completely irrelevant to his feat. He reacted to Cloud to Groung Lightning that Zetsu specifically commented on its speed.

3. The scene with Minato, Kakashi, Lee, and Gaara was PIS. Even Gaara was keeping up. And you realize that it was stated in canon that the 8th Gate gives a 100x power boost to the user right? And Base Guy is easily well above Supersonic. Plus Midnight Dragon>>>Evening Elephant anyway, and it doesn't change the fact that he was bending space with his speed.

4. There are plenty of other MHS feats as well. Like Bijuu bombs that cross islands in seconds, the Four Hokages that crossed countries in minutes (went from the Leaf Village to the Frost Country), Base Ashura Naruto running up the Shinju (which is about as tall as the Frost Country is long) in seconds, Naruto and Sasuke casually reacting to and blocking/dodging Madara's Nature Style Lightning Jutsu, ect.

@darkraiden: Well, the whole point was you failed to prove that regular teleportation or the instances you are referring to (which I don't know) happen at lightspeed. FTG is a lightspeed technique. Unless you prove this relativity, i don't think your argument holds.

@ everyone

You see guys though, Itachi is as fast as Bee and Naruto. Again, Bee's only fault that makes him slower to react is his lack of sensing abilities that Itachi and Naruto has. This is the only reason Gyuki asked Bee to blow up the forest, because of Bee's narrowed field of vision that was hampering with ability to react.

We have already seen how adequately Bee can react. He was faster than Sasuke and if it wasn't for Kisame's super chakra drain, wouldn't have lost to him. The only possible explanation is that Bee is at least a lightning timer, but unlike Naruto or Itachi, he cannot react to attacks he can't predict or don't see coming.

This particular disadvantage was even mentioned because they were fighting 5 other Jinchurikkis with shared field of rinnegan vision and sharingan. I don't really think Bee would even sweat against Zoro or Erza. The two of them together can defeat him, but that's that.

If anyone needs more proof that Bee is not a sensor type, I'd be glad to show more of it.

@lowlaville: @anime2114: Guys there is really no point in arguing with Darkraiden. He's clearly a troll and he's already said that if he hasn't read it then it hasn't happened, he said superman can't fly until he's read it. He clearly doesn't read any of them and is just trying to piss everyone off.

@lowlaville: Last I check ichigo before the power up and hollow form never had a city busting feat. And is fine if they destroy a city one moment and than destroying a building if he actually destroy a city. And kenpachi is a freaking idiot who would let erza and zoro hit him. So yeah team one wins

erza solos <3

I don't feel like debating today. Tired. And bored. Ichigo has city+ striking feats even through the 3rd arc. I have nothing against Erza, and Kenpachi won't be cut. Neither of Erza or Zoro is soloing Kenpachi. Bee is easily the fastest in this matchup. Thats about all of my end arguments. See you when I'm feeling a little better.

@colliderz I may not reply to the CAV for about 24-48 hrs. Please excuse me. Thanks!

@lowlaville: Teleportation =/= Speed. When you say ftg is a light speed technique it sounds ridiculous. You are literally going from pint a to point b instantly, no speed involved. Just had to add that.

According to the same theory, Teleportation can even be MFTL, like Goku's instant transmission. That's probably very wrong. While there are specific teleportations that can fit the criterea, not all teleportation works the same way.
The example that was given in this thread was with Nightcrawler. He moves through the brimstone dimension to appear at specific points within range. There's a time lag. It's the same in Obito's case. Obito moves through his own dimension while teleporting, to appear at his destinations. That's in no way lightspeed.

FTG on the other hand uses markings to appear at specific locations with zero time lag. This is what makes the technique FTL. I've provided multiple examples and showings of why and how FTG is lightspeed.

As you can see above, there is practically no time or movement spared between the execution of the technique. At the very least, two specific movements are executed instantaneously, at the speed of or beyond light.

Now, I could understand if you were saying Minato and Tobirama are not lightspeed, but the technique itself is at the very least, lightspeed. This is not arguable. You will not see me calling the likes of Shisui, Obito or even Nightcrawler who does move, lightspeed. FTG has shown the feats with which I can say it is.

Lightspeed doesn't necessarily mean movement, but action devised at the same will naturally be considered the same.

@lowlaville:

FGT is not LS nor is it FTL.Its teleportation.

You will have to agree to disagree. o-o FTG is >= lightspeed. I've asked for quantification/argument/basis for falsification, one proving me wrong. This is the most I'm asking for. You can hold on to your own belief as I do mine. I only believe in technical determination. All presented argument supports FTG is lightspeed at the very least.

As for whether or not its regular teleportation or how you quantify to regular teleportation with sufficing examples, to FTG, I have been provided nothing I can possibly reply to. What you are presenting is a hollow belief simply to thwart my own. Unless you can debunk my claim... the best course of action is to disagree. Otherwise stop saying the samething KingH said. Or better, reply to my argument.

@lowlaville: Just so you know, we're not trying to downplay FTG, it's just that it can't be LS or FTL because it isn't speed. Speed requires velocity, while FTG actually bends space and instantly teleports someone. As far as travel speed, it's actually better than simply being FTL, because it's instant, while as far as combat and reaction speed, it doesn't make a difference to Minato or Tobirama's own normal speed.

Minato has shown he can react in lines to falsify the argument. He reacted to Ay, who has shown to be faster than Amaterasu, which uses the users eye blink speed to ignite the target. Ay dodged Amaterasu from around 12 feet away. Minato used FTG to teleport to the tree then back on top of Ay at point blank range. Do note: He also had the reaction time to throw the kunai before the activation of the FTG technique.

With Ay's own speed and reaction time, I doubt they are not as fast as they are. Maybe they are not lightspeed, but they have the reaction speed saying they are no doubt faster than the likes of Ay in base. Combined with FTG, they have been shown to react to the likes of Obito, who is otherwise impossible to even touch due to his Gudou dama and own reaction speed.

A complete fallacy if you assume FTG is indifferent to the user's own speed.

@lowlaville:

Teleportation=/= speed.Speed=D/T.Minato doesn't move during FGT, so speed is 0.

Lets say Minato had a kunai placed 1 billion light year away and is racing vs a far reaching laser.

Minato would appear in the finishing line instantly while light would take 1 billion years to make it.

It doesn't boost their reaction time to LS.

@lowlaville: I'm not saying Minato is slow. I'm saying any combat, reaction, or even travel feats from Minato or Tobirama are feats for they're own speed, while FTG is instant teleportation.

Obviously the faster the user is the better they can use it. Whether he had FTG or not, Minato wouldn't have been able to dodge Ay if his own reaction speed wasn't impressive.

I'm just saying Minato/Tobirama's own speed is separate from the FTG, since teleportation isn't speed.

- People are failing to realize a basic concept with FTG and regular teleportation.
See, FTG uses the concept of Warp Gates or Jump Gates, connecting 2 distinct locations through space and time. This is why the technique is called a space time technique. It is in no way regular teleportation, thus the one fallacy I am being subjected to is that regular teleporters like Nightcrawler, who are then compared to and said the technique is possibly not lightspeed whilst pointed out that many street levelers react to it.

The case here is ginormously different. And do note: I was only falsifying the above notion. The act of going from one place to another may even be FTL, MFTL or on the level of omnipresency if Minato had his marks on every inch of the universe, as I have pointed out. Tell me something I don't know or have not referred to. I've already addressed the point in discussion.

4. Probably so. In no way is Minato street level in reaction time. There's no way the likes of those in comparison are touching Minato. That's all I mean. He is not as slow as the assumption goes.

By chunnin exams, Sasuke was already at the level of most meta humans in reference. By shippuden, he had vastly improved on speed and reaction. Ay proved faster than him, and Minato is faster than this guy. Tobirama is probably even faster.

My point was, in light to what I presented, the technique encorporates teleportation on a basis of lightspeed, from the presented scans. I think all of you have been misunderstanding my notion entirely. I never deviated from the cited logic, I just simply disagreed with what DarkRaiden pointed out as a reference. It would be crucial to check the preceding arguments on the matter before arriving at a conclusion. lol

Then we are in a possible agreenment. I simply disagreed with Darkraiden when he said just any street leveler can react to basic teleportation and that FTG is basic teleportation. Minato is faster than any street leveler I know of. See the point in light to the presented scans was that FTG is lightspeed, and the only probable one given the distance covered in the scans I had posted. Regular teleporters cannot achieve such feats. Its not like either of Obito or Zetsu ever did.

@scandy: I don't think you are understandin what I am saying. Telportation isn't speed. As I've said earlier you are literally going from point a, to point b instantly. It's described as space time jutsu right? I'm not understanding where you are getting lightspeed from. You can't even put a speed on teleportation. Or am I misunderstanding you right now?

Team 2

Kenpachi and Bee destroy Zoro and Erza.

I think you meant to tag me. XD

Yes, you basically are. As you have said, the technique could practically pass billions of lightyears just the same. I was using the notion in with the two scans I presented to say how unrelative regular teleportation and FTG technique is. As I have said before, Narutoverse has teleporters, Obito and Zetsu, none of who can go at the speed of FTG as Darkraiden proposed. The same with the Nightcrawler reference he drew. Nightcrawler passes through brimstone dimension as Orbito does his. Zetsu passes through materials.

@lowlaville: Yeah I did lolol

I don't kno much of Erza!I However, Bee & Zaraki lack slash durability feats. to tank. Even tho kenny can prolly 1 shot, he lacks speed. Bee lacks the strength to take out zoro with just swords only. zoro counters bee's swordplay with 3 swordstyle: drifting wolf blade. Zaraki can get the rengoku oni giri. Erza decoys.

Current kenpachi solos. He is basically country to potentially continent level at this point as stupid as it is.

@deathhero61: This is Pre Shikai Kenny.

@deathhero61:

No, he is not continental by any means.

Sigh......... Hello? Slashing a meteor several thousand times larger than seretei? A meteor the size of a state or two could probably destroy the US. A Meteor the size of a mountain could destroy a city maybe a country. I think you see where i am going with this right? The speed and force of a meteor is ridiculous. Even the smallest meteor could pack a punch.

Really? Oh thank god. Then Team 1 if they can take out bee before he does anything dangerous.

what? thousand times larger than seretei? no

@ratava: Okay thousand may have been an overexaggeration XD

Team Zaraki.

@deathhero61:

Several thousand times seiretei huh lol.Seiretei is not state sized either, its island sized.

As for the meteor....

1-Unknown initial speed.This meteor just spawned in the heavens so 11 KM/s goes right out of the window.Not only that but any person would imagine a meteor as a big burning rock.So ablation speed for the meteor is debatable.Gremmy likely just imagined a big burning rock in the sky.

2-Shakonmaku and its effect on the meteor.This could have slowed down the max 2 KM/s(disputable) speed of the meteor significantly. Anything reishi related usually gets destroyed by the shakonmaku, but something strong enough can get through by effort.The meteor likely lost a lot of speed trying to go through.

So Kenny destroyed a meteor with disputed speed(most likely not even close to 2 KM/s) and disputed size.

Continent level my ass.

Zarakis presence alone kills everyone in this thread :giogio

How are they going to survive spiritual pressure ?

@d3athstroke: Lawl spiritual pressure

Equalizer is always on for that and, almost any person would lose through that Lawl spiritual pressure outside bleach verse.

Zoro and Erza take this

Btw they stomp with Erza Exquip Anti-Shinigami/Jinchuriki Exquip armor

@itachi_totsukablitz:

Good points.

Team 2. Fairly easily.

Really? I mean... care to tell me?