Retnex Tournament Round 2: Mutant413 vs Dane

• You do not know of your opponents location.
• You do not know of your opponents abilities.
• No leaving the map.
• The pillars and walls are destructible, but the surrounding rock is invulnerable and cannot be phased through.
  
• The hero option is...no longer an option. That was a one time deal (congrats to Nexus for being the only one who got it)

Mutant413 (Human)

Dane (Colossus)

um, opening points:
 
1. While phased, a person's mind can't be read since their brain is no longer physical so his mind reading for the most part won't work on me. 

2. My Daredevil's hearing should pick him up pretty quickly so I'll have the heads up on where he's going to be and when. Due to the weight of his metal bones, I will be able to tell he has an adamantium skeleton just from his footfalls. (have scans of DD's senses for anyone who would like them). Since a person would die of metal poisoning without a healing factor, I think it's safe to say I would assume he has one. So off the bat I would know a lot more about his powers than he would know of mine.

3. My Vibranium Suit will absorb his optic blasts even if I'm not phased. So he can't hurt me from a distance at all.
 
4. The only way he can hurt me is up close and I can just phase through his attacks and unphase the Muramasa Blade into his chest, shut his healing factor down, take it out and walk away.
 
5. Even if he's reluctant to engage in melee or he takes to climbing on pillars, I can just throw a sonic grenade up, blow his ear drums out and watch him fall off. Anyone who has had their inner-ear fluid damaged can probably relate to how fun that is.
 
6. Alternatively I could use the Predator Disc to trim his Achilles tendons and knock him off.
 
I'll wait for Mutant413 before continuing.

  1. While phased, a person's mind can't be read since their brain is no longer physical so his mind reading for the most part won't work on me.  

" @Dane: 

  1. While phased, a person's mind can't be read since their brain is no longer physical so his mind reading for the most part won't work on me.  

I'm not sure I can allow this, it just seems unfair.  Everything else seems fine though. "

" @Dane:  Ahem.  This is Kittys powers. I chose characters relative to powers that are the most well know for them. But every power is simple and basic, phasing is just for going through solid objects. I understand that some powers go into greater detail, but in this tournament everything is simplified. I.E. Your opponent has Prof. X's mind reading capabilities, but cannot erase your memory.  I chose based on what I believe is fair to the tournament as a whole, not on personal preference. Phasing is phasing, not the ability to block mental readings or even walk on the air. Why? Because then those powers would cost much more and would have to be described in detail. It's easier if we just say you can phase through walls and even the ground. Had you any questions on the extent of these powers, you should have asked me before hand. "

" @Dane: Someone has already questioned me on mind reading regarding the extent of the ability, I forget who.   A mental thought will exist even if the brain is phased. Kitty still exist she just isn't solid. Since a mental reading does not regard physical contact it will not be affected by phasing, not in this tournament.   A lot of people have had questions concerning powers, and I tried to use fair reasoning in my decision making. They have all been very good sports about it and understanding, you have already stated that you don't need the added mental protection to win this, so you should too.   "

" @Dane:  Your hero isn't given a map. Vibranium suits don't affect Daredevils Radar sense in anyway, even if he is wearing it. Which has been discussed.   Mind reading can locate the enemy and discover their plan. It's more of a strategy power than offensive/defensive, so I made it cheap. You shouldn't get so caught up in it. "

@Dane, he is doing pretty much the same thing you have done to me on a number of occasions. I come across an eventuality that you hadn't considered and you clamp down on it restricting it after the fact. The fact is that Retnex is not omniscient and cannot foresee the unorthodox combinations we can possibly come up with and should not be harangued for such. As I have been in your situation many times before, I understand your rage and in some ways empathize with it.
 
Mind reading can be countered by more than just mind reading, Feral for 150 points would make your mind thoroughly unreadable. Electricity Control could also make reading your mind difficult to read by creating the mental static like Storm does to resist mind control. Animal Shifting could likewise make you immune given that Professor X can't read animal minds. Pheromones would also be a good counter as they would allow you to make someone think they think they know what you are thinking despite not knowing. Now phasing is one of the few powers that actually has no hard counters. Sure a sonic grenade may cause you to destabilize and certain metals may bring the pain but it won't stop you from phasing your Muramasa into someone, just make it more difficult. Every other power on the list has at least one hard counter and multiple soft counters but Phasing only has soft counters. 
 
Realistically, if the vibranium negates sound then you would not be able to use your enhanced senses. Simply put, if you want to use your enhanced senses then you have to be vulnerable to sonic grenades and sonic screams. Now as for making you more stealthy, I see no reason why it couldn't dampen your heartbeat and movement. I think this is what Retnex means, though I may be wrong.

Sonic weapons are at best a soft counter for phasing whereas all the powers I listed were hard counters that completely contradict mind reading. Even if a sonic grenade is thrown you can always phase into the ground or a wall and evade it whereas someone with Feral powers is completely immune to mind reading. You wouldn't be using 300 points to counter mind reading, you would be using it to gain pheromone powers or animal shifting which also just happen to counter mind reading. Remember, if you hit a mind reader with a sonic grenade they will also be unable to read your mind but could maybe dodge your grenade. Invisibility can be soft countered by a sonic grenade as well but you'd have to find him first which would require a hard counter like mind reading, radar sense, and most helmets to use effectively. Phasing not only is nearly impossible to effectively counter but at such a cheap price you can buy things to counter that soft counter and become veritably unstoppable. That being said, telepathy is at best a soft counter as it only counters the stealth aspect of phasing without doing anything about the actual phasing side. Perhaps Retnex was unaware of anybody with phasing powers who wasn't immune to telepathy and so chose someone people were familiar with. When I suggested that I could just make my enemy's eyes invisible and blind them, Retnex said that I could not, despite that being well within Sue's capability. He is human and simply did not consider someone using their powers as such despite it being a canon tactic.  
 
You have however, chosen two contradictory components. Since sound cannot physically travel through the vibranium, it can't get to your enhanced ears to determine location. You would have to either A) use a microphone thus destroying any real advantage your enhanced ears grant you or B) your ears are uncovered and you are vulnerable to sonic attacks. There really can be no middle ground, either you are vulnerable to sonic attacks or you cannot use your enhanced senses. Likewise, while phased into an object you would be unable to use your radar sense as sound waves cannot physically reach you. You would have to poke out your head to use your enhanced senses.  
 
Just so you are aware, I was referring to the switching equipment and using enemy weapons tactics that I used in your very first scenario thread. Despite not having listed it in the rules you argued against me being able to use them despite having a character who, being a soldier, was trained to make use of enemy weapons and re-purposing equipment. 
 
Keep in mind that you'll still likely win even if he can read your mind.

This is Retnex's first rodeo so as a fellow scenario maker you should have maybe been a bit more empathetic. 
 
Black Panther has enhanced senses like Wolverine has enhanced senses, he relies primarily on his nose with his ears and eyes working as backups. It is likely that with all his genius he has an earpiece that connects to a receiver outside of his suit likely in the raised ears on the outside of his costume. That makes the most sense to me as Black Panther is a lot like Batman and he hides equipment in his bat ears.

He can likely shut it off or has a device that listens ahead of him and turns the earpieces off before the sound hits. The guy is a genius, I am sure he could devise a system that doesn't leave him vulnerable to the likes of Klaw.

Also, you should go vote in my thread ... for me!

Bump

@Dane:
i apologize for being so late. i haven't had access to a computer for a while.  
 

1. While phased, a person's mind can't be read since their brain is no longer physical so his mind reading for the most part won't work on me.

 

i just went over the discussion you had with retnex (didn't read it all fully, because that's a buttload of reading), but it looks like retnex has determined that i can read you mind when you are phased (if i mis-read the discussion, let me know).  

2. My Daredevil's hearing should pick him up pretty quickly so I'll have the heads up on where he's going to be and when. Due to the weight of his metal bones, I will be able to tell he has an adamantium skeleton just from his footfalls. (have scans of DD's senses for anyone who would like them). Since a person would die of metal poisoning without a healing factor, I think it's safe to say I would assume he has one. So off the bat I would know a lot more about his powers than he would know of mine. 

 
scans are not needed. i know of daredevil's feats, and agree completely on this point.  
 

So off the bat I would know a lot more about his powers than he would know of mine. 

the mind-reading rule changes this. a good scan of your surface thoughts should let me know immediately what powers and gear you've got, and what you're planning.

whether or not i can come up with a good counter-plan is a different matter entirely... 
 

3. My Vibranium Suit will absorb his optic blasts even if I'm not phased. So he can't hurt me from a distance at all.

 
really? i know that vibranium can absorb high amounts of kinetic energy, but i didn't think it could completely absorb all the energy from a ''cyclops-not-holding-back" optic blast (you are a very experienced debater, so i'm sure you know the feats cyclops has even with his visor on).  
 

4. The only way he can hurt me is up close and I can just phase through his attacks and unphase the Muramasa Blade into his chest, shut his healing factor down, take it out and walk away. 

ummm... f**k.

unless i can find a way to convince you that your vibranium suit doesn't make you totally immune to my optic blasts, all that may be true.

i still wouldn't be completely defenseless up close though. i could use my telepathy "Mr. X" style and dodge the Muramasa blade a split-second before you attack, possibly giving me an opening to tag you with my claws. 
 

5. Even if he's reluctant to engage in melee or he takes to climbing on pillars, I can just throw a sonic grenade up, blow his ear drums out and watch him fall off. Anyone who has had their inner-ear fluid damaged can probably relate to how fun that is. 

 
hmmm. that's true.  
 

6. Alternatively I could use the Predator Disc to trim his Achilles tendons and knock him off.

 
my telepathy would definitely see that coming. 
 
 
 
 
 
 

the mind-reading rule changes this. a good scan of your surface thoughts should let me know immediately what powers and gear you've got, and what you're planning.

whether or not i can come up with a good counter-plan is a different matter entirely...

really? i know that vibranium can absorb high amounts of kinetic energy, but i didn't think it could completely absorb all the energy from a ''cyclops-not-holding-back" optic blast (you are a very experienced debater, so i'm sure you know the feats cyclops has even with his visor on). 

i still wouldn't be completely defenseless up close though. i could use my telepathy "Mr. X" style and dodge the Muramasa blade a split-second before you attack, possibly giving me an opening to tag you with my claws.

my telepathy would definitely see that coming.

@Dane:  

I don't agree with this. Unless I was constantly thinking "My name is Dane, I can do this, this and this and I'm holding in my hand one of these" I don't know why surface thoughts would elicit any of that information. If I was hunting you down I'd probably be thinking about where you are and what you're doing. I don't usually narrate my life inside my head.

 
'reading surface thoughts' doesn't mean simply hearing your inner monologue (because nobody purposefully thinks in that way). it means i am able to 'read' the thoughts that are actively going through your head. if any of your current thinking involves your intangibility, i will sense those thoughts. if you think anything that involves your Muramasa Blade, i will know about it. and so on and for forth. 
 

I can get some scans but yes, Vibranium absorbs virtually all kinds of energy. Cyclops optic blasts are pure concussive energy.

 

i know it can absorb all kinds of energy, but i was under the impression that it couldn't just absorb infinite energy. doesn't it have a max limit?  
 

It's possible. But Mr. X is only able to use his telepathy in this way because he is also an extremely high grade martial artist in his own right. He would be a challenge for most street level characters even without his ability. 

 
it's true that i don't have his extreme hand to hand skill, but it doesn't take a buttload of skill to dodge a katana being swung by a guy with no more martial arts skill than me (at least, as far as I know), especially since i can sense your swing coming before you even move. 
 

Unless you actually have the speed to dodge a sword a split-second before an attack (which implies you can dodge a sword in a fraction of a second), that isn't a valid claim.

 
dodging a sword strike from a non martial artist really isn't THAT impressive of a feat. dodging a sword strike from a non martial artist when you can sense the strike before he even begins to move... i really don't see that being hard at all.  with my mind reading, it's like you will be majorly telegraphing every single move you make.
 

Why would telepathy help you see an inanimate object?

 
while reading your mind, i would know precisely when you are going to throw it, and precisely where you intend to aim it.    
 

I'm not sure how you can tag me with your claws anyway. If I'm only phasing the sword out I'm still intangible. The sword cuts through adamantium like a hot bread knife through butter so if you tried to slash at the sword you'd probably lose your claws. Even a papercut from that sword will shut down your healing factor.

 
 i'm not entirely sure what to say to this. i've been doing my best to debate you, and if i go out i want to go out with style, but i just can't think of a counter for this. i don't really want to just concede outright (after seeing some of the other fights in this tournament, it doesn't look like people who concede get much respect), buti just can't think of any argument here that wouldn't hurt my integrity as a smart debater. 

 


 

 

'reading surface thoughts' doesn't mean simply hearing your inner monologue (because nobody purposefully thinks in that way). it means i am able to 'read' the thoughts that are actively going through your head. if any of your current thinking involves your intangibility, i will sense those thoughts. if you think anything that involves your Muramasa Blade, i will know about it. and so on and for forth. 

i know it can absorb all kinds of energy, but i was under the impression that it couldn't just absorb infinite energy. doesn't it have a max limit?

it's true that i don't have his extreme hand to hand skill, but it doesn't take a buttload of skill to dodge a katana being swung by a guy with no more martial arts skill than me (at least, as far as I know), especially since i can sense your swing coming before you even move. 

dodging a sword strike from a non martial artist really isn't THAT impressive of a feat. dodging a sword strike from a non martial artist when you can sense the strike before he even begins to move... i really don't see that being hard at all.  with my mind reading, it's like you will be majorly telegraphing every single move you make.

while reading your mind, i would know precisely when you are going to throw it, and precisely where you intend to aim it.

i'm not entirely sure what to say to this. i've been doing my best to debate you, and if i go out i want to go out with style, but i just can't think of a counter for this. i don't really want to just concede outright (after seeing some of the other fights in this tournament, it doesn't look like people who concede get much respect), buti just can't think of any argument here that wouldn't hurt my integrity as a smart debater.

  We may need Retnex to clarify his interpretation of what you can and cannot do there.   

i know it can absorb all kinds of energy, but i was under the impression that it couldn't just absorb infinite energy. doesn't it have a max limit?

 Not that I've seen. 

Actually, I have been doing martial arts (Taekwondo and Hapkido) for almost a decade.

"

Actually, I have been doing martial arts (Taekwondo and Hapkido) for almost a decade.

This isn't you fighting, this is a hero you created. Like you said, this is to avoid someone from claiming they're Chuck Norris. "

" @Retnex said:

"

Actually, I have been doing martial arts (Taekwondo and Hapkido) for almost a decade.

This isn't you fighting, this is a hero you created. Like you said, this is to avoid someone from claiming they're Chuck Norris. "

I know, I mentioned that. I am using my own understanding of martial arts to explain why a katana would be difficult to dodge, regardless of who is swinging it unless it's a grandma or something. "

Definitely wouldn't want to fight a phaser. Just out of curiosity, how does Kitty's phasing actually work? I know one of the theories behind phasing through solid objects is aligning your molecules with whatever object, and walking through it--something along the lines of how Flash operates, does Kitty or Martian Manhunter do the same thing, or do they really become "ghosts?" As in, they physically disappear from the physical world, leaving only their thoughts, and image behind? If that were the case, how is it Kitty can still feel things going through her while phased? Has this been addressed in the comics before?

" Definitely wouldn't want to fight a phaser. Just out of curiosity, how does Kitty's phasing actually work? I know one of the theories behind phasing through solid objects is aligning your molecules with whatever object, and walking through it--something along the lines of how Flash operates, does Kitty or Martian Manhunter do the same thing, or do they really become "ghosts?" As in, they physically disappear from the physical world, leaving only their thoughts, and image behind? If that were the case, how is it Kitty can still feel things going through her while phased? Has this been addressed in the comics before? "

@Dane:  
Hm, I don't know if Prof. X can only read "verbal" thoughts or if he can read "action" thoughts as well. Dane's character probably won't think "phase" but will probably think "I need to dodge". 
I'll put it this way, Dane's character wont know his opponent has mind reading. That and the distraction of battle (when in battle) will probably prevent him from filtering what he thinks, so a "plan" could be discovered. But, dodging is a fast, natural reaction. I don't think mind reading will give a full capability to read the opponents every move. If Dane's character thinks ahead before attack, X-Head might use that to his advantage. But in a quick moving battle, mind reading will be less effective. 
 
I hope that makes sense :/  
 
 
 
that makes sense to me   
 
 
Vibranium has been overloaded in the past, but I believe the amount of energy needed to do so is unobtainable in these fights.

 
 
-___-  
f**k 

 
Actually, I have been doing martial arts (Taekwondo and Hapkido) for almost a decade. I have trained with weapons, including sword but not extensively. I would say less than 20 hours in my entire life with that weapon. But nothing short of posting photos of myself at tournaments would prove that and I haven't attended tournaments since high school. I don't think it's necessary to prove my case. Since Taekwondo was a 100 point requisition it isn't really fair for me to just say 'I don't have to buy it, I already know it', since we would eventually just get everyone claiming to be martial arts prodigies. Regardless of that, the fact is that it is not easy to dodge a katana. It's not something just anyone could do. A Katana was made for slashing and is typically used for sweeping attacks. This results in wide arcs that can be easily controlled because the weapon is still very lightweight when compared to a european claymore or broadsword.  
 

Considering the blade is likely at least a metre in length, if I were to swing it in an arc at chest height you would have virtually no chance to dodging to either side or ducking the attack. Consider how difficult it is to dodge a punch which has only a very small area of impact. When throwing a punch I want to hit you with my knuckles, preferrably the first two since they are strongest. That's an impact area of no more than one inch. Hitting you with my thumb or my wrist/arm simply wouldn't suffice. A Katana isn't like that. I don't have to hit you with the very tip of the blade, I can hit you with any part and it'll cut you just as good. If you would have difficulty dodging a punch from any reasonable person, it stands to reason that you flat out cannot dodge a Katana using a sidestep or any kind of trained grapple/disarm technique. This means your only hope of avoiding it is to move backwards. This is actually what most people would do if you swing a katana at them: get out of the way. The problem with this is it might help you dodge the first swing, but then you're moving backwards. Since people can run faster forwards than they can backwards it's highly unlikely you'll be able to continue dodging by doing this. 
 
In summary, whilst I'm no master swordsman, I can hit you and you can't hit me. My weapon is longer, deadlier and you have no defense against it. I will eventually get you.  
    To be honest, dodging a sword strike regardless of the circumstances is really quite impressive. I wouldn't like to try it for fun, put it that way. The problem you have is, dodging once or twice isn't enough. Since you lack any means to effectively put me down, I can swing at you until my arms get tired.
 
I honestly don't think you can dodge that all day. I know how much energy it takes to sidestep a front kick. Watch an Olympic Taekwondo match, since the aim of the game is to tag the opponent (regardless of power if it's in the chest) the winner is usually the person who can dodge and counter the best. Watch those people after a few 3 minute rounds of dodging and countering. They're visibly tired after just 5-10 minutes of that. They're olympic athletes and you're not. 
 
Who do you think will tire out first, me moving my arms or you moving your entire body? 

 
i don't have any reasonable counter argument for all this...   
 

Knowing it's coming still won't help you avoid it. It homes in on enemies and is made out of crazy alien metal. Probs gonna hurt. Even if you don't get hit it'll distract you long enough for me to throw a sonic grenade at your head. 

 
it homes in? i thought it was just like a normal boomerang or something.   
 

Well, you don't have to concede but we can call for votes whenever you're ready. Truth be told I would hate to debate against anyone with phasing. I respect you and I like your powerset. The only problem with it is the powers and items are expensive and can be countered by cheaper powers and items. I think you could have done very well against certain opponents but my character is a bit of a mismatch since I can either absorb or avoid pretty much all of your attacks. If you could pop a Charles Xavier mind rape/acid trip on me, that'd probably work, but I don't think you get that aspect of his powers with just mind reading.

i'm ready to go to a vote if you are :/

Actually, X-Head has Wolverine-level stamina, he could dodge all day and not get tired which also means that he could fire his optic blasts all day and not get tired.

" Actually, X-Head has Wolverine-level stamina, he could dodge all day and not get tired which also means that he could fire his optic blasts all day and not get tired. "

 it homes in? i thought it was just like a normal boomerang or something.

@Retnex:  

He is refering to the Predator Throwing Disc.

 
yeah, that's what i was talking about. i thought it was just pretty much a regular throwing disc. i didn't know it could home in on targets.

So has voting officially started, or is there still some potential discussion to be had?

To everyone debating the vibranium business -> I can just go intangible. The Muramasa Blade can deflect optic blasts. Wolverine has personally used that against Cyclops. It's not going to be much of an issue.
 
I'm ready to open voting.

 @Dane said: 

" To everyone debating the vibranium business -> I can just go intangible. The Muramasa Blade can deflect optic blasts. Wolverine has personally used that against Cyclops. It's not going to be much of an issue.  I'm ready to open voting. "