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#1 Edited by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

Dane

Nexus 
 
 
 
 

                                                                                              

                                         Versus

 
 

The Boiling Rock

This is a high level prison facility from Avatar: The Last Airbender. It is surrounded by a boiling lake on a volcanic island. 
It has an interior with has cells like a normal prison, but also has cooling chambers that are built to punish troublemakers.  
The walls are made from very dense metal, but can be dented with enough force.  
While it is sunny, the sky is cloudy from the steam. Within the walls of the prison is clear. It's very humid.  
For more info, check out this
 
New rules:  
  • One hero will start inside. The other will start next to the bare wall. 
  • The only info your hero gets is the who the opponent has defeated. This will be presented as their opponents "reputation", but they will not be told how they won or what powers they have. 
  • There are no people around. The gondola is not functional.  
  • A new form of defeat is in effect: BFR. The arena is presented as is. If someone is knocked into the water and cannot get out before being boiled alive, they lose.
 
Start InsideStart by Wall
 Dane Nexus
 Shadowcat's Phasing Spider-Man Level Reflexes
 Muramasa Blade Light Saber
 Vibranium Suit Spider-Man Level Agility
 Predator Throwing Disc Johnny Ohm's Electricity Control
 Daredevil Radar Sense 20 MPH Running Speed
 Sonic Grenades x05 Flash Bangs x10
 
For more information on round 3, see this thread. For more information on the tournament as a whole, see this thread
Dane's previous matches: Round 1 and Round 2 
Nexus's previous matches: Round 1 and Round 2
#2 Posted by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight:
Firstly, that is a really awesomely set out post and mad thanks for assigning me Daredevil for an avatar.
 
Secondly, I like the new arena, it's like Alcatraz with boiling water around it. I don't watch/read Avatar so I don't know that much about the prison but I've read that wiki entry. I think my phasing should protect me from most of the environmental hazards (cooling chambers, boiling water, etc)
 
The basis of my argument will be that although you're faster, more agile and have better reflexes there are two major flaws here that I think will prevent you from winning:
 
1. Despite having Spider-Man's reflexes, you don't have his Spider-Sense and can't detect incoming danger. That's one of the major reasons why Spidey can dodge so well. So despite having his agility, you still can't pull off the things he can. This means you can't really dodge better than a normal person unless you know an attack is coming, i.e. by seeing it.
 
2. You have no way of knowing an attack is coming since you have no detection powers. Meaning if I attack you by stealth using my phasing powers (exactly what I made the character for) you don't really have any way of stopping me from succeeding. There's really nothing to stop me from repeating my usual attack pattern here.
 
I will know exactly where you are from the start because of my senses, but you won't know where I am. Since the Vibranium Suit muffles all of my footsteps unless I walk out in the open you won't really have any way of knowing where I am. There isn't any reason why I wouldn't just phase a sonic grenade out a wall next to you, blast your ear drums apart and then come phase my sword through your body.
 

 
#3 Posted by OblivionKnight (3356 posts) - - Show Bio

I shall only post this one time so I don't take up space, but this will be interesting.

#4 Edited by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Alright, I that's cool. Glad you like. 
 
So yeah, stealth against, well throughout all my matches Nexus has also been someone who's been stealthy, and due to the set up for this match, that won't change. To match your first point, no, Nexus doesn't have a Spider-Sense, but just because he has the senses of a regular human, doesn't mean he's a sitting duck. The two characters start out without knowing each other, without knowing what each other can do, and without knowing where each other are, so Nexus has every reason in the book to be on guard. He's going to be looking around for anything. Any disturbance in the area that's in his immediate vicinity, he will be aware of it. Shadows, reflections, noises that don't belong... Don't underestimate the human body and what it can pick up. Don't underestimate the human mind and what it can interpret. Now what does Pete's spider-sense actually do? Warn him of danger. How does it do that? Well, it doesn't do much other than give him a headache, and all that warning really does is say something along the lines of "Hey, pay attention! Somethin's about to happen!" It doesn't tell him what's going to happen, and it doesn't tell him how. People have confused it before. It's not really precognition, it's just a sixth sense, and as valuable a sixth sense is, a person doesn't need it to avoid danger. Look at Captain America. Does he need a spider-sense to dodge bullets? What about Deadpool? 
 
Common Sense Goes a Long Way 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
All he needs is common sense, and he can work his way around trouble, and the same can be said for any other regular human with regular human senses. And since Nexus isn't just a regular human, so he should be able to dodge better than a normal person, he should be more apt to dodge whatever your character throws his way, and he should be able to see it coming. How? By looking out, hearing out, maybe even following his gut from time to time. It works for regular people, and it should certainly work for super powered people, too. 
 
So now that we've covered those points, let's go through some scenarios. I feel that if we both post our initial offensive strategy and debate it, we both get equally represented debate wise, and it makes for easier voting in the end. Since you've already started off, let's run with that. From my understanding, your character is going to use his enhanced senses to detect where Nexus is and use his phasing abilities to stealthily get in close and attack via sonic grenade. Alright, I can work with that. 
 
Like I said, Nexus will be on the look out. He'll definitely be watching his surroundings. If anything changes, he'll at the very least notice it. Your character throws the sonic grenade, it's gonna do some bouncing, which'll make noise, and then go off. Nexus'll have to act quick, but as soon as he detects it, all he has to do is use his electric powers to get that thing in an electromagnetic field and fling it far away before it goes off. He'll be safe, your character is down a grenade, and he'll know that your character is close by, so he'll be even more attentive. Watching, and waiting, always looking over his back, checking his sides, the ground in case there's another grenade around. So if your dude decides to phase out from a wall with his sword in hand, Nexus will be like "What the crud?" and get out of the way. Dodging your dude's efforts to make contact with the blade. He'll try to shoot him with an electric bolt, and once he sees that it goes through your character, he'll know right off the bat that he's fighting a phaser. Now if your guy stays true to the whole stealthy ninja thing, he's not going to stay out in the open for long, so after that first confrontation doesn't turn out the way he wants, he'll probably retreat back into a wall to think of another method of attack. This'll give Nexus time to think of something, too. 
 
So Nexus is on defense. Your dude's on offense. The ball is in your court. What happens next?
#5 Posted by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio

Firstly, Captain America doesn't have normal human senses. He can dodge bullets because he can see them in flight. Your character isn't on the super soldier serum.
 


On the other hand, Spider-Man can use his Spider-Sense to grant him subconscious perfect aiming (which is why his webs always hit a strong, stationary target). It's not just a mobile migraine generator.
 

How? By looking out, hearing out, maybe even following his gut from time to time. It works for regular people, and it should certainly work for super powered people, too.


There is no merit at all to this line of reasoning. If you think a normal person can hear someone wearing a Vibranium Suit I may need to post some scans on what vibranium does. Essentially it takes away all sound from my character. From my footsteps to my heartbeat you simply cannot hear me. Since I know where you are at any given moment, why would I intentionally walk into your line of sight? I can just phase into an object when you get close. So you won't see me either. Given the boiling water all around us the water vapor in the air would completely mask my scent so you can't smell me either. I simply cannot see you detecting or tracking me. 
 

Like I said, Nexus will be on the look out. He'll definitely be watching his surroundings. If anything changes, he'll at the very least notice it. Your character throws the sonic grenade, it's gonna do some bouncing, which'll make noise, and then go off. Nexus'll have to act quick, but as soon as he detects it, all he has to do is use his electric powers to get that thing in an electromagnetic field and fling it far away before it goes off.

You misunderstand. I could pull the pin on the grenade while phased, wait for it to cook for a few seconds then throw it through a wall or the floor directly in your face. I could even hand deliver it from behind. My Vibranium Suit will absorb any of the sonic based energy and leave me completely unharmed. If I time it well there is no need for any bouncing or warning. Please do not pretend normal humans notice slight, vague irregularities in an environment they're unfamiliar with. The reason why people have enhanced senses is because only they can enact the kind of thing your attributing to normal, everyday people. I've already covered how I could evade even superhuman senses, this isn't going to work.
 

Watching, and waiting, always looking over his back, checking his sides, the ground in case there's another grenade around.

Yeah, how about inside the floor? 'cause I could be inside the floor. Is he going to be checking there? I could phase my M-Blade through your body from inside the floor and there is 100% nothing you can do about it.
 

 So if your dude decides to phase out from a wall with his sword in hand, Nexus will be like "What the crud?" and get out of the way. Dodging your dude's efforts to make contact with the blade. He'll try to shoot him with an electric bolt, and once he sees that it goes through your character, he'll know right off the bat that he's fighting a phaser. 

ok, let me break down this scenario. I'm inside a wall, you have no idea I'm there. I have Daredevil's senses and I know exactly where you are down to the millimeter of stubble growing on your chin. Why do I phase out and miss you? 
 
Why on earth would I come out in front of you when I can come out behind or from below? That is retarded and it's extremely presumptuous to assume your guy is some amazing detective with perfect detection skills and my guy, with outrageously enhanced senses can't tell where you are with any degree of accuracy. If you want to take a stance on how you think senses work, that's cool. But don't play one set of rules for your guy (a normal human) and a lower set for my guy (Daredevil grade senses).
 

So Nexus is on defense. Your dude's on offense. The ball is in your court. What happens next? 

There is no defense, you can't hurt me. I can take you apart at my leisure. Unless you stand around with an electromagnetic field surrounding you at all times, and then you have a defense. My understanding is that you lack that degree of power.
#6 Edited by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

No, Nexus isn't on the super hero serum. He's beyond that, at least in reflexes and agility. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Captain America became Captain America by taking the super soldier serum, and according to the wiki article entry here, the super soldier serum makes its user peak human, as in peak human strength, peak human speed, and peak human agility. Nexus is beyond peak human in reflexes and agility, and it's those things that are taken into account when dodging things at high speed. If I was moving at a rate faster than something else, it would seem slow to me. So by Cap saying he "sees" bullets slower, he's reacting at a speed fast enough for that to be the case. It's all relative. 
 
Now back to this. I'm not saying that your character doesn't have the advantages in tracking and stealth. He can hear Nexus walking, and pinpoint in on him. Walking through walls makes that easier for him, and having that nifty Vibranium suit makes does a pretty good job at hiding any sound he makes. I'm not saying that none of that is true. There's no denying it, but what I am saying is that you're crucially downgrading what normal people do every day. You've taken away sound. There's still sight, and typically when someone knows something is in the vicinity and is constantly on the look out for it, the chances of that thing sneaking up on that person without there being a reflexive reaction is pretty slim. You don't have to be some master detective like Batman or Sherlocke Holmes. You just have to be a normal person paying attention and using your God-given sense of sight. Think about it. I'm in a room. Someone has already told me there's a snake in the room with me. I know the snake is in the room with me. I don't know where, I can't hear it, but I know it's there. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna look for it, but not look for it all willy-nilly, I'm gonna be careful. Snakes are known for biting. Let's say for arguments sake, the snake is poisonous. Let's even assume that it's looking for a meal. None of that really matters. The point is, chances are I'm gonna find it. It may find me first, but I'll still find it before anything happens. 
 
So let's look at your character. He's moving through the walls. He's closing in. Through the ground, through the walls, whatever. He's on the hunt, and he knows where Nexus is. Nexus doesn't know where he is, but he's still on the lookout. He knows your character is there. He knows your character is deadly. He even has an idea on how your character operates based on the previous matches he's won. So Nexus is gonna be cautious. He's going to look for your character wherever he may be. He may not be able to hear him, but he knows he's out there. Nexus also knows that Vibranium suits have the ability to mask sound, because he's fought two opponents already who had Vibranium suits. He doesn't necessarily know your dude has a V-suit, but it's definitely a possibility, so he's going to be extra-special-ultra-careful.
 
Now throughout your argument, you're saying all your dude has to do is come out of the wall behind Nexus and kill him like that. Now, I do know Daredevil's ability offer enhanced senses, but that doesn't mean your dude can see through walls. In fact, Daredevil's abilities enhance everything except vision, if we're speaking in technical terms. So in order for your dude to be sure to come up from behind, or, more specifically, out of Nexus's line of sight, then your dude would have to peak out from time to time in order to make sure of himself. I doubt your dude's seriously gonna do that, but hey, if he does, he runs the risk of being spotted visually. 
 
So in essence, while your strategy here is pretty well constructed, and does have a possibility of working, it is not fool proof. Why? Well, you're making the dangerous assumption that due to your character's superior senses, Nexus will be somehow idly be meandering about not paying attention to anything. You're essentially saying Nexus will be doing nothing. This is a fight, there's no way he's going to be doing nothing, and I guess I can sorta see why you'd think that, but in all honesty, it's similar to how people auto-hit when they role play. I don't want to spend the majority of the debate disputing this point, but if you're still unsure of what I'm saying, or where my logic on this is coming from, I won't mind going into more detail. Bottom line, Nexus is not blind during this fight, and sight can go a long way. 
 
Let's see, what else is there? Oh yeah, you're wondering how it's possible for your character to miss should your character decide to strike from the wall or through the floor or whatever. Well, once again, Nexus is going to be on the look out. So again, whether or not your character gets the first strike, Nexus is going to at the very least be aware of it. It's quite simple. reflexes, agility, and speed. He outclasses your character in all three of those categories, so if any physical confrontation were to take place, he'd be able to out run your guy, out maneuver, and effectively dodge whatever your guy throws out there without much effort. I could bring up most of Spider-Man's fights, and that'd be proof enough. Now I know you say that most of Spider-Man's quick reactions and dodges are all due to him having a spider sense. I'd like to reiterate that while his spider sense definitely plays a part in it, it's not the sole reason. Again, all his spider sense does is give him a quick headache. He's learned to interpret that when he gets that headache something bad is going to happen. He still needs the reflexes and agility to successfully dodge time after time. Now here we have Nexus. He doesn't have that "headache." What does that mean? He has to rely on his sight. As long as he can see, he can react. Now let's look at that with more detail. Reflex is defined as an involuntary and nearly instantaneous response to a stimulus. Involuntary, meaning he doesn't have to think "hey, that's something bad. That bad thing can hurt me. I better get out of the way." That's not involved. Instantaneous, meaning it happens at almost an imperceptible space of time, at a particular or precise time, at once, immediately, etc. Agility is defined as the ability to change the body's position efficiently, meaning whatever needs to be done to get out of the way will effectively and efficiently be done. (Please note that I'm not trying to insult your intelligence by spelling these words out for you. I just want to make sure we're on the same page for discussion here. When debating, I've noticed that the two people debating don't have a common definition to go on by, one may steer off of the initial topic. That's the kinda stuff that starts red herring fallacies.) So in essence, when Nexus sees whatever your character is about to do, he's going to avoid it. That's why I made the character the way he is. He can't be touched when it comes to close range. 
 
Oh, and sorry to make a deal out of this, but I found the following comment rather...upsetting:   

@Dane

said:

Why on earth would I come out in front of you when I can come out behind or from below? That is retarded and it's extremely presumptuous to assume your guy is some amazing detective with perfect detection skills and my guy, with outrageously enhanced senses can't tell where you are with any degree of accuracy. If you want to take a stance on how you think senses work, that's cool. But don't play one set of rules for your guy (a normal human) and a lower set for my guy (Daredevil grade senses).  

I understand that people can get excited when debating an issue, but calling one of my points "retarded" isn't any way to go about discussing it. If you don't like or don't understand where I'm coming from, just say it like that. I'm not saying Nexus is a detective, the entirety of this discussion has been about Nexus merely looking for your character, and it's pretty safe to assume that when someone is looking for something that is there, chances are it'll be found. Your character having better senses in the matter doesn't change that. Just because a lion has the advantage over whatever it's hunting doesn't mean the prey can't see it coming. Saying my stuff is retarded...well, I'll be straight with you, it hurts my feelings. I'm sensitive when it comes to debates and discussion. Not the kinda person who's a fan of conflict. Now you might say, "Oh boo hoo, suck it up," but I say, no. Just don't do it. That kinda stuff is what leads to ad hominem and ultimately flame wars. I know we're both debaters here, so let's keep this strictly about the debate, and leave out words like "retarded," "stupid," "idiot," and other words of the like. A'ight? 

 There is no defense, you can't hurt me. I can take you apart at my leisure. Unless you stand around with an electromagnetic field surrounding you at all times, and then you have a defense. My understanding is that you lack that degree of power. "    

Sure, there's a defense. My character is reacting to whatever offense your character throws out. Whether or not your dude "takes him apart" is entirely dependent on my guy's defense. Speaking of electromagnetic fields, yes, that is entirely within Nexus's power range. All through The Imperfects, Johnny had a field surrounding him. See for yourself. 
 
              
 It's definitely strong enough to knock back people     
    
   And, as you can see, he's not afraid to have it on

 And this right here...

...shows how much power he has 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So again, Nexus is on defense, your guy is on offense. We're still working through the scenario. Since it's yours we can discuss it further, or leave it as it is and discuss how I plan to have Nexus try and pull out a win.
#7 Edited by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight:

No, Nexus isn't on the super hero serum. He's beyond that, at least in reflexes and agility. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Captain America became Captain America by taking the super soldier serum, and according to the wiki article entry here, the super soldier serum makes its user peak human, as in peak human strength, peak human speed, and peak human agility. Nexus is beyond peak human in reflexes and agility, and it's those things that are taken into account when dodging things at high speed. If I was moving at a rate faster than something else, it would seem slow to me. So by Cap saying he "sees" bullets slower, he's reacting at a speed fast enough for that to be the case. It's all relative.

Incorrect. Captain America is enhanced beyond the limitations of even the finest human athlete. This pertains to his senses also. You have 20 MPH Running Speed. Consider this, Usain Bolt, a human athlete can run 100m in 9.58 seconds. 
 
100 meters = 0.0621371192 miles 
9.58 seconds = 0.00266111111 hours
 
so 0.0621371192 miles ÷  0.00266111111 hours = 23.35 mph.
 
Your speed isn't actually superhuman. Athletes can run faster than you and Captain America is said to run a mile in under a minute (60 mph), so 3 times faster than you. You're not as good as he is.
 

Now back to this. I'm not saying that your character doesn't have the advantages in tracking and stealth. He can hear Nexus walking, and pinpoint in on him. Walking through walls makes that easier for him, and having that nifty Vibranium suit makes does a pretty good job at hiding any sound he makes. I'm not saying that none of that is true. There's no denying it, but what I am saying is that you're crucially downgrading what normal people do every day. You've taken away sound. There's still sight, and typically when someone knows something is in the vicinity and is constantly on the look out for it, the chances of that thing sneaking up on that person without there being a reflexive reaction is pretty slim. You don't have to be some master detective like Batman or Sherlocke Holmes. You just have to be a normal person paying attention and using your God-given sense of sight. Think about it. I'm in a room. Someone has already told me there's a snake in the room with me. I know the snake is in the room with me. I don't know where, I can't hear it, but I know it's there. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna look for it, but not look for it all willy-nilly, I'm gonna be careful. Snakes are known for biting. Let's say for arguments sake, the snake is poisonous. Let's even assume that it's looking for a meal. None of that really matters. The point is, chances are I'm gonna find it. It may find me first, but I'll still find it before anything happens.


 
 That's an atrociously flawed comparison. Snakes aren't silent, snakes can't hide inside walls or inside the floor. Everyday people aren't fast enough to kill a snake at close range, either. That's why farmers use guns to kill them. There is absolutely no evidence toward your line of reasoning. You'll find the Snake because you think you should find it? That's like me saying I can take down Omega Red in h2h because a regular people sometimes watch Jackie Chan movies. It doesn't make any sense nor have any context to the situation. You can't hear me, you can't see me, you can't smell me. I know exactly where you are, I even know what direction you're looking in. You can't detect me, I can always detect you. These are givens.
 

So let's look at your character. He's moving through the walls. He's closing in. Through the ground, through the walls, whatever. He's on the hunt, and he knows where Nexus is. Nexus doesn't know where he is, but he's still on the lookout. He knows your character is there. He knows your character is deadly. He even has an idea on how your character operates based on the previous matches he's won. So Nexus is gonna be cautious. He's going to look for your character wherever he may be. He may not be able to hear him, but he knows he's out there. Nexus also knows that Vibranium suits have the ability to mask sound, because he's fought two opponents already who had Vibranium suits. He doesn't necessarily know your dude has a V-suit, but it's definitely a possibility, so he's going to be extra-special-ultra-careful.

Conjecture. Yes, your character is aware that he isn't alone here. That doesn't give him any indication of my equipment and it doesn't give him any actual means of detecting me. Just because you know you can't hear me doesn't mean you can hear me. That's the exact opposite of what is occuring here.
 

Now throughout your argument, you're saying all your dude has to do is come out of the wall behind Nexus and kill him like that. Now, I do know Daredevil's ability offer enhanced senses, but that doesn't mean your dude can see through walls. In fact, Daredevil's abilities enhance everything except vision, if we're speaking in technical terms. So in order for your dude to be sure to come up from behind, or, more specifically, out of Nexus's line of sight, then your dude would have to peak out from time to time in order to make sure of himself. I doubt your dude's seriously gonna do that, but hey, if he does, he runs the risk of being spotted visually. 
 
So in essence, while your strategy here is pretty well constructed, and does have a possibility of working, it is not fool proof. Why? Well, you're making the dangerous assumption that due to your character's superior senses, Nexus will be somehow idly be meandering about not paying attention to anything. You're essentially saying Nexus will be doing nothing. This is a fight, there's no way he's going to be doing nothing, and I guess I can sorta see why you'd think that, but in all honesty, it's similar to how people auto-hit when they role play. I don't want to spend the majority of the debate disputing this point, but if you're still unsure of what I'm saying, or where my logic on this is coming from, I won't mind going into more detail. Bottom line, Nexus is not blind during this fight, and sight can go a long way.


This isn't a roleplay, it's purely situational. I'm not saying your character won't do anything. I'm saying he can't. Since he has no way of detecting me he has no way of avoiding my attacks. Since I can phase, he has no way of hitting me. Simple as that.
 
On my senses, lowball Daredevil at your own peril. Most people know how far away he can detect people from, regardless of how many walls are in the way. I don't need to see you to know exactly where you are and what you're doing.
 
Detects Atmospheric Changes, such as the kind you're likely to make as soon as you activate any electrically based powers.


Picks the voice of one man out of everyone in Hell's Kitchen.
Can smell Wolverine from 4 blocks away.
He can tell a girls age and the speed of a car from 3 blocks away.

Detects a well-trained Sniper from two blocks away.



 
 

Let's see, what else is there? Oh yeah, you're wondering how it's possible for your character to miss should your character decide to strike from the wall or through the floor or whatever. Well, once again, Nexus is going to be on the look out. So again, whether or not your character gets the first strike, Nexus is going to at the very least be aware of it. It's quite simple. reflexes, agility, and speed. He outclasses your character in all three of those categories, so if any physical confrontation were to take place, he'd be able to out run your guy, out maneuver, and effectively dodge whatever your guy throws out there without much effort. I could bring up most of Spider-Man's fights, and that'd be proof enough. Now I know you say that most of Spider-Man's quick reactions and dodges are all due to him having a spider sense. I'd like to reiterate that while his spider sense definitely plays a part in it, it's not the sole reason. Again, all his spider sense does is give him a quick headache. He's learned to interpret that when he gets that headache something bad is going to happen. He still needs the reflexes and agility to successfully dodge time after time. Now here we have Nexus. He doesn't have that "headache." What does that mean? He has to rely on his sight. As long as he can see, he can react. Now let's look at that with more detail. Reflex is defined as an involuntary and nearly instantaneous response to a stimulus. Involuntary, meaning he doesn't have to think "hey, that's something bad. That bad thing can hurt me. I better get out of the way." That's not involved. Instantaneous, meaning it happens at almost an imperceptible space of time, at a particular or precise time, at once, immediately, etc. Agility is defined as the ability to change the body's position efficiently, meaning whatever needs to be done to get out of the way will effectively and efficiently be done. (Please note that I'm not trying to insult your intelligence by spelling these words out for you. I just want to make sure we're on the same page for discussion here. When debating, I've noticed that the two people debating don't have a common definition to go on by, one may steer off of the initial topic. That's the kinda stuff that starts red herring fallacies.) So in essence, when Nexus sees whatever your character is about to do, he's going to avoid it. That's why I made the character the way he is. He can't be touched when it comes to close range.

You misunderstand. If the first attack is 'impaled my a samurai sword that suddenly materialized through your chest' it is the only attack thats going to count. You have absolutely no reasoning for why your character would or could detect me, so don't say 'he'll know about it' until he's already been stabbed and it's game over then.
 

Again, all his spider sense does is give him a quick headache.


 I'd like to know if you honestly believe that statement or are just saying it for battle purposes. Because that is so grossly inaccurate it isn't funny.
 

As long as he can see, he can react.

You are yet to prove that you can see me. Considering it's been my strategy from the get-go to hide inside walls and floors, please explain how you are seeing me or stop saying you can.
 

Reflex is defined as an involuntary and nearly instantaneous response to a stimulus.

Did you read the part that says 'response to a stimulus' or just the 'nearly instantaneous response' part you liked the sound of?
 
Response to a stimulus means something in the environment has forced a reaction from your senses. Something like seeing a punch come toward your head, or seeing a deer in the headlights when you're driving a car.
Let me reiterate that you're fighting someone you cannot see, hear, smell or touch. You have no warning, you have no stimulus to respond to. That is why I've said from the start that your reflexes won't count for anything here. If you had a Spider-Sense to warn you of impending danger regardless of how well masked the attacker is (a quick headache as you call it) you would be able to, but you don't.
 

I understand that people can get excited when debating an issue, but calling one of my points "retarded" isn't any way to go about discussing it. If you don't like or don't understand where I'm coming from, just say it like that. I'm not saying Nexus is a detective, the entirety of this discussion has been about Nexus merely looking for your character, and it's pretty safe to assume that when someone is looking for something that is there, chances are it'll be found. Your character having better senses in the matter doesn't change that. Just because a lion has the advantage over whatever it's hunting doesn't mean the prey can't see it coming. Saying my stuff is retarded...well, I'll be straight with you, it hurts my feelings. I'm sensitive when it comes to debates and discussion. Not the kinda person who's a fan of conflict. Now you might say, "Oh boo hoo, suck it up," but I say, no. Just don't do it. That kinda stuff is what leads to ad hominem and ultimately flame wars. I know we're both debaters here, so let's keep this strictly about the debate, and leave out words like "retarded," "stupid," "idiot," and other words of the like. A'ight?


 I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across offensive. But I meant it literally and directed toward my own character, not you. When I say retarded I mean I think someone who has built up a stealthy approach would be mentally subnormal to just jump out of a wall in front of someone. I think he'd probably approach from behind or below. Having said that, I don't think this is like a Lion and a Gazelle or anything. The addition or superpowers and super equipment just make that a very different scenario. The Lion can't phase through walls or anything.
 

Sure, there's a defense. My character is reacting to whatever offense your character throws out. Whether or not your dude "takes him apart" is entirely dependent on my guy's defense. Speaking of electromagnetic fields, yes, that is entirely within Nexus's power range. All through  The Imperfects, Johnny had a field surrounding him. See for yourself.


 He seems to have electricity arcing across his back, but that isn't the same as an electromagnetic field surrounding him. It doesn't look the same as say, Magneto's EM Field for example.
 


We've gone over how I think I would win and I think it's extremely feasible. Feel free to post up your ideas.
#8 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

You forgot taste Dane, he can't taste you either. There are some points I would argue here but it is not my job to do so. 
 
Also, Spider Sense is the most powerful power that Spider-man has, it dwarfs his superstrength, speed, and agility. Without it, he could not function as a superhero. As Dane said, Daredevil's senses are not to be trifled with, he can find you from the very beginning and keep track of you the entire time. Daredevil and Spider-man are two of the most dangerous street levelers in Marvel, not because of their physical traits but because of their highly developed senses. Physical traits are just icing on the cake.

#9 Posted by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin said:
" You forgot taste Dane, he can't taste you either. There are some points I would argue here but it is not my job to do so.   Also, Spider Sense is the most powerful power that Spider-man has, it dwarfs his superstrength, speed, and agility. Without it, he could not function as a superhero. As Dane said, Daredevil's senses are not to be trifled with, he can find you from the very beginning and keep track of you the entire time. Daredevil and Spider-man are two of the most dangerous street levelers in Marvel, not because of their physical traits but because of their highly developed senses. Physical traits are just icing on the cake. "
Yes, the water vapor in the air should also stop him from tasting me. I'll go into more detail on the Spider-Sense if he continues to lowball it as a 'headache' but I think everyone knows it does a lot more than that.
#10 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @DedmanWalkin said:
" You forgot taste Dane, he can't taste you either. There are some points I would argue here but it is not my job to do so.   Also, Spider Sense is the most powerful power that Spider-man has, it dwarfs his superstrength, speed, and agility. Without it, he could not function as a superhero. As Dane said, Daredevil's senses are not to be trifled with, he can find you from the very beginning and keep track of you the entire time. Daredevil and Spider-man are two of the most dangerous street levelers in Marvel, not because of their physical traits but because of their highly developed senses. Physical traits are just icing on the cake. "
Yes, the water vapor in the air should also stop him from tasting me. I'll go into more detail on the Spider-Sense if he continues to lowball it as a 'headache' but I think everyone knows it does a lot more than that. "
I've skip the debate and i didn't read that, but did he really lowball spider-sene!!!!O_O
#11 Edited by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Well, yes, he said it only gave Spider-Man a headache when danger was nearby and wasn't really that useful. However, it is a 1 on 1 debate. But rest assured spidey, I'll let him know how it works if that becomes an issue.
#12 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Sorry for interrupting the debate, i was just shocked. I'm pretty sure you can defend spider sense, Dane, i don't doubt it.
=D
#13 Posted by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: It's ok. I'll keep it real for Mr. Parker.
#14 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: lol, good.
=]
#15 Posted by Fortanono (4889 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight: You Win.
#16 Edited by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm "low balling the spider-sense," but out of all the Spider-man comics I've read that's all I've really noticed. Squiggly lines coming from his head. Brief headache. Danger's near. During the Other story arc, it got amped up insanely. After one more day, it went back to normal. I've been reading Spider-man for a few years, so I'd like to think I know something about it (especially since I consider him my favorite character in comics), but if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. Tell me exactly what what the spider sense does, because I seriously believe it's nothing more than a sixth sense that essentially tells him to move. I don't see really don't see what else it possibly can be. It's the stimulus that puts his reflexes into action. Just like sight can put his reflexes into action. Just like hearing can put his reflexes into action. It's just another sense. I fail to see how me thinking that is "low balling it," but if I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

@Dane
said:

Did you read the part that says 'response to a stimulus' or just the 'nearly instantaneous response' part you liked the sound of?
 
Response to a stimulus means something in the environment has forced a reaction from your senses. Something like seeing a punch come toward your head, or seeing a deer in the headlights when you're driving a car.
Let me reiterate that you're fighting someone you cannot see, hear, smell or touch. You have no warning, you have no stimulus to respond to. That is why I've said from the start that your reflexes won't count for anything here. If you had a Spider-Sense to warn you of impending danger regardless of how well masked the attacker is (a quick headache as you call it) you would be able to, but you don't.

Of course I read it, and the bolded statement is the very thing I'm debating against you. You're trying to say Nexus has nothing to go on, making him a sitting duck, susceptible to anything and everything your character does. I'm saying that's not true. He has sight, and he's going to use it. The sight is his stimulus. I'm not saying there's nothing your character can do to somehow get around it, but that doesn't mean it's not there. You seem to believe that if something tries to sneak up on something else, that something else has no way of getting around it. Again, that's not true. There are many visual queues that something gives off, and if the "prey" is looking for them, it won't be caught by surprise. Every character in this tournament is some sort of super hero. Is it wrong for me to assume they have been fighting crime long enough to pick up on people or objects in their vicinity? In order for your character to actually come out for an attack, he has to come out in the open, be it through a wall, through the floor, or just simply walking up from behind. Intangibility doesn't make one invisible. That's all I'm saying. I hope the point I'm trying to make is clear now. 
 
@Dane said: 

 That's an atrociously flawed comparison. Snakes aren't silent, snakes can't hide inside walls or inside the floor. Everyday people aren't fast enough to kill a snake at close range, either. That's why farmers use guns to kill them. There is absolutely no evidence toward your line of reasoning. 

That's one of the reasons I used the snake as an example. Nexus isn't an everyday person. His reflexes and agility do grant him the means to react fast enough.  
 

 You'll find the Snake because you think you should find it? That's like me saying I can take down Omega Red in h2h because a regular people sometimes watch Jackie Chan movies. It doesn't make any sense nor have any context to the situation.

Not because "I think I can," because I know it's there. It's not going to be in any other place. If it's going to attack, I'm going to see it. It's not like saying regular people can take down Omega Red. That comparison is nothing like the one I'm trying to convey. I'm saying people have the ability to see, and when they use that ability, they can find things whether that thing is trying to hide or not.


You can't hear me, you can't see me, you can't smell me. I know exactly where you are, I even know what direction you're looking in. You can't detect me, I can always detect you. These are givens.     

Intangibility doesn't mean invisibility. No, Nexus can't hear or smell your character, but in order for your character to make any kind of attack, he has to be out somewhere in the open. He has to be fairly close to Nexus. That means he has to be somewhere within Nexus's line of sight. That's what I'm trying to say. That's why I used those animal comparisons. That's what you don't seem to get. If your character was invisible, truly invisible, then yeah, I could understand where you're coming from, but that's not the case. You've taken away all of his senses except for the one that most people rely on the most. I'm not saying that your plan isn't good. In fact, I think it's great. This has been one of the best debates I've been in while I've been a part of Comic Vine, and I have the utmost respect for you, but your strategy isn't as perfect as you're trying to make it seem.
#17 Posted by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight: 
ok, Spider-Sense information day.
 
Some of these scans are nice and blurry but I'll highlight the key points where I can.
 
Key words here: " Since it reacts to any form of danger or menance, I can't be caught by surprise!" and " No one - including my own wife - can sneak up on me or ambush me from behind!"
Which is why I said it would be especially useful for you, since you wouldn't have to see, smell, hear, etc in order to detect me. But you don't have it.
 

Key points here are fairly obvious. He can detect a concealed weapon without seeing it. Something about walking around a room and dodging supervillains.
It's powerful enough for him to detect Doctor Strange's Astral Form, which is both intangible and invisible.

Can isolate the person he's after in a crowded room.



Again, states that Spider-Man can never be snuck up on and can always tell the direction and severity of any threat to his person.

His Spider sense allows him to do things blind, since it always tells him where to go and when to go. It's basically an always-on safety net. The narrative in these two scans should give you an excellent explanation of how it works.




Even when he's dazed or out of it, his Spider-Sense will tell him what to do and when to do it to save himself. Here he doesn't know which way is up, but his spider-sense tells him to reach for a ledge so he can stop himself from falling.
One of the more obvious uses. Although he knows the man is a threat, the Spider-Sense tells him exactly when he's going to fire the gun, so he can dodge bullets while looking the other way.


As I've said. Your reflexes might be Spider-Man's but without that sense you're just not him when it comes to dodging or detecting threats. Also, please don't call it a 'fast headache' again, before Nobody sees you and gets a brain hemorrhage.
 
For the rest of your post, you're playing up how well you can see me. Two things on that:
 
Firstly, I don't have to phase out of a wall or the the floor to kill you. I only have to phase the sword into your body. I can even phase only parts of it out, so I could slit your throat while standing on the other side of a wall, with the blade in my hand and bring it back through the wall without ever giving you any warning.
 
Secondly, If I know where you are, down to the direction you're facing, where you're looking, based on your heartrate; how alert you are, why would I ever let you see me? I can hide inside walls and the floor, if I know you're looking toward me, why would I let myself be seen?
 
Also, in an unrelated matter. I would know pretty much all of your powers based on my senses. If Daredevil can tell the age and health of a girl 3 blocks away, I can hear your electricity arcing around. And based on the conditioning of your heart and lungs, which must have been enhanced to allow you to operate at superhuman levels, I would know in what way you're enhanced and have an idea on what degree of enhancement you had. So I know exactly what I'm walking into and you do not.
 

#18 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Thank you for the information, and after reading through those scans, I still don't see how that's any different from what I initially thought. Maybe me using the word "headache" is what got you upset. Perhaps I should have used "tingling sensation" like the scans said, but it's essentially the same thing. That's why I said it was important for us to define our terms before the match. My mistake. Now, I'd like to reiterate my point. Spider-Man's spider sense is indeed just what it's name states, a sense. All the spider sense does is warn him of potential and immediate danger. But his response to that danger is due to his reflexes and agility, both of which my character has. To quote one of the scans directly, it is an "instinctive response to danger which triggers his spider like reflexes," reflexes that Nexus has. Reflexes that can be triggered by any other of the five senses. Like I said before, all it does is act like a voice that says, "hey, this is bad, I better move." That may be a simplified definition, but it's certainly not "low balling." I'm not saying that a spider sense is not helpful. It most certainly is, but I am saying, without it, so long as one relies on his other senses, he can do a pretty good deal of what Spider-man already does. Not all of it of course, such as seeing through walls, walking blindfolded, etc, but a good deal of it. It's a sixth sense that he utilizes just like his other five.
 
While Nexus might not have a way of detecting your character through a wall, that still doesn't mean he can't dodge something that he sees. So what if you decide to only phase the sword out of the ground? Does that mean the sword is invisible? No, it's certainly not. Nexus can see it, and the very act of seeing it will trigger his reflexes in order to avoid it. I'm pretty sure a moving sword coming out of the wall or the floor is something worth reacting to, and if you're trying to say you can move the sword faster than Nexus can react, I'm afraid that's just not true. While Nexus may not be up to par with Captain America in terms of speed, he's certainly faster than your character. 20 MPH is still a registered speed for this tournament that your character doesn't have, which means if your character and my character got into a race, my character would win. With that on top of his agility and reflexes, your character won't be hitting him. I'm not saying your character is going to let Nexus see him, but in order for any attack your character throws out, Nexus will have no choice but to see it. You're arguing for a close range one hit kill, but in order for close range to play a part in this, your character will have to be close range. In order for your character to phase the sword into Nexus's body, your character will have to reveal the sword. As soon as Nexus sees it, he's going to move out of the way. He'll know he's fighting a sword wielder and a phaser, and he'll be even more cautious and alert.
 
I hope at the very least, you understand where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to convince you that my plan is better or more effective than yours, but I am trying to convey what I feel about how your plan will probably play out. If you have any more questions or concerns on my way of thinking, feel free to point it out (preferably without saying "that's stupid, it won't work," and so on). If not, then I'll go ahead and move on to how my character will most likely try and pull out a win.
#19 Edited by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight: 
 
I'm honestly flabbergasted that you can read those scans and still have a completely inane view of Spiderman's Spider-Sense. The fact that you can't see it's utility when your character has no other way of detecting me is really... I don't know what to say. I guess you're trying to make your character look as good as possible. And that makes sense but you can't do what Spider-Man can without that sense. There is no getting around that.


I'm not saying your character is going to let Nexus see him, but in order for any attack your character throws out, Nexus will have no choice but to see it.

 
I really don't know what part of 'from behind' or 'from below' you aren't getting but you can't see behind or below yourself.
 

In order for your character to phase the sword into Nexus's body, your character will have to reveal the sword. As soon as Nexus sees it, he's going to move out of the way. He'll know he's fighting a sword wielder and a phaser, and he'll be even more cautious and alert. 

Again, absolutely no clue why you think a stealth based character would make the critical error of ATTACKING YOU DIRECTLY FOR SOME REASON. I have absolutely no reason why you think you can detect me at all. Why would I walk or move in front of you? This is just the strangest thing and I do not know where you get the inkling that your character can detect things inside walls. I just flat out don't get how you think "I can see things" counters the things I've said. You still have come up with any solution to me hitting you with a sonic grenade let alone having a sword phased through your body.
 

I hope at the very least, you understand where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to convince you that my plan is better or more effective than yours, but I am trying to convey what I feel about how your plan will probably play out. If you have any more questions or concerns on my way of thinking, feel free to point it out (preferably without saying "that's stupid, it won't work," and so on). If not, then I'll go ahead and move on to how my character will most likely try and pull out a win. 


 I've tried, but you saying "I can still see!" when I say "I can hide inside walls" is not cutting it for me. I'm sorry if my answers sound like "that's stupid, it won't work" but you haven't given me much to work with.  Please post your plan because I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall with you playing up your characters detection skills when he has none.
#20 Posted by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio

*eats popcorn* 
good stuff so far
#21 Edited by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

So you're saying I still don't understand how the spider sense works? Well, I guess I need it spelled out to me in simpler terms--the simplest. You've already called one of my points "retarded," break it down in a way that a "retard" can understand. I've been called slow before. Is it or is it not a sixth sense that functions as a stimulus for Spider-man's reflexes going into action? If so, how is my way of thinking wrong? If not, then what does it really do. Every time I read through those scans, I become more confident in my way of thinking, because quite honestly, it reaffirms my point of view on it. I'm not claiming that I know every thing about the wall crawler. I'm sure you, Spidey 15, Nobody, and probably everyone else knows more about the character than I. If it's common knowledge that his spider sense does more than what I'm saying it does, please don't leave me out of the loop. I'm not trying to claim that Spider-man would be as good as he is at dodging things without it, but I am saying that without it, he still has five other senses that can just as easily trigger his "spider-like reflexes." It's just another sense that he has to go along with the basic five. Just like his sight can "see" his surroundings, his hearing can "hear" sound, and his touch can "feel" things touching him, his spider-sense "feels" or "sees" danger. Someone with a gun is dangerous, so he can see that. Falling to his doom is dangerous, so his sense is going to make sure he doesn't continue falling. Someone in his astral form with incredible power is dangerous. Tracking someone through a crowd--well, that was after The Other, which means his spider sense was functioning in overdrive. The sense senses danger, but that doesn't mean he absolutely has to have it in order to use his reflexes. The best example I can think of is when he's fighting the symbiotes. His spider sense doesn't register them as a threat, but he can still see someone like Venom lunging towards him and can still use his reflexes to get out of the way. That's all I'm getting from the whole "spider sense debate." Like I said, if there's something crucial that I'm missing, please inform me, otherwise, I'm going to continue to think of the spider sense as I've always thought of it: a sixth sense that Spider-Man has in conjunction with his other five. I know my character isn't Spider-Man. I know my character doesn't have his spider sense, but that doesn't mean he can't react to things that he sees. 
 
@Dane said:

I really don't know what part of 'from behind' or 'from below' you aren't getting but you can't see behind or below yourself.
 

In order for your character to phase the sword into Nexus's body, your character will have to reveal the sword. As soon as Nexus sees it, he's going to move out of the way. He'll know he's fighting a sword wielder and a phaser, and he'll be even more cautious and alert. 

Again, absolutely no clue why you think a stealth based character would make the critical error of ATTACKING YOU DIRECTLY FOR SOME REASON. I have absolutely no reason why you think you can detect me at all. Why would I walk or move in front of you? This is just the strangest thing and I do not know where you get the inkling that your character can detect things inside walls. I just flat out don't get how you think "I can see things" counters the things I've said. You still have come up with any solution to me hitting you with a sonic grenade let alone having a sword phased through your body.
 

I hope at the very least, you understand where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to convince you that my plan is better or more effective than yours, but I am trying to convey what I feel about how your plan will probably play out. If you have any more questions or concerns on my way of thinking, feel free to point it out (preferably without saying "that's stupid, it won't work," and so on). If not, then I'll go ahead and move on to how my character will most likely try and pull out a win. 

 I've tried, but you saying "I can still see!" when I say "I can hide inside walls" is not cutting it for me. I'm sorry if my answers sound like "that's stupid, it won't work" but you haven't given me much to work with.  Please post your plan because I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall with you playing up your characters detection skills when he has none. "
Okay, maybe I'm not answering your question directly enough. I still think you're under the assumption that Nexus is casually walking without looking for anything, so I'm going to go into detail over the difference between that and searching, and hopefully illustrate how "getting behind or below" won't catch him off guard. If you still don't understand after this, then we'll just drop it and move on. 
 
Nexus is not casually strolling through the park. He's not at ease, he's knows there is another character in the vicinity, he knows that character is the enemy, and most importantly, he knows that the other character is looking to kill him. How? Well, just looking over your guy's previous matches, all of his opponents have ended up dead. He doesn't want to die, so he is going to be cautious. He is going to be on the look out. He is going to be searching for any and every little thing that could potentially end his life. There is a major difference between that--searching--and merely glancing or seeing. 
 
If someone were in a room and were tasked with finding a hidden object, that someone is not going to sit there casually hoping the object will present itself in front of him in plain view. What are the chances of him actually finding that hidden object? Slim to none. Now if that person decided to actually take a more proactive approach in finding the hidden object, the chances of success significantly increase. Are you following up to here? I hope so, because the next part of my explanation depends on this key concept. 
 
Look behind you. Now look back to your computer monitor. Look to your left. Then look to your right. Now look back to the screen. Look to the floor. Now look back again. Now can you honestly tell me that if you repeat this constant process of looking to and fro, searching high and low enough times that you won't be able to pick up on something moving towards you? Even if you can't hear it, can't smell it, can't feel it, you can definitely see it, or at the very least notice it if it's trying to sneak up on you. That is exactly what Nexus is doing. It's not him being the super special-ultra-mega-Sherlocke-Holmes-meets-Batman on speed detective work. It's merely being cautious. It's not like Nexus is scared or anything. He's just trying to take this fight as slow, calm, collective, and cautious as he can because he simply does not want to die, and all through this debate, you've made it quite clear that your character is going for the killing strike. 
 
Now in order for your character to successfully get behind Nexus, he'll have to constantly change his positioning to complement the change in direction of Nexus's head. Your character just simply doesn't have that kinda speed. How fast do you think someone would have to be moving from in front of a person's line of sight to directly behind it? Your character would essentially have to teleport, and not just teleport, but teleport constantly. But if by some off chance of reality bending, your character can constantly move around behind the walls and through the floor, constantly--let me stress--constantly changing his direction practically every second, constantly move to the exact spot Nexus is not looking, reveal his sword, thrust it, and let go without Nexus seeing or even feeling any part of that extremely delicate process (yes, if you thrust an object through a person, even while that object is phased, that person is still going to feel it), both of which will instantaneously trigger his reflexes, then yes, your character will accomplish what he set out to do, Nexus will be dead, and you'll move on to the final round. Now to me, that plan just has way too many spots for error, the main ones being that Nexus is faster than your character in every sense of the word, and if he so much as sees a reflection--even a shadow--cast on the wall from an object he did not see behind him before, then he is going to move and get out of the way. This applies to your character stabbing his sword and the sonic grenade. Nexus will pick up on both of them and he will react accordingly. That's why I don't see your plan as being as flawless as you're trying to make it sound. It has a chance of working. It is a good plan, probably the best type of plan for the type of character you're playing as, but that does not mean it can't be beat. That's why I'm disputing it. That's why I'm saying "I can still see." Please tell me you understand where I'm coming from now, because if you don't then I'm sorry, but you're just going to have to continue banging your head against that wall, and I really don't want that, because from experience I can tell you that kinda stuff's not good for your health. 
 
Now to move from one headache to another. I feel we've both covered well enough the pluses and minuses of your offensive plan, now let's look at mine, but before we get started, I feel it's crucial to go over exactly what "phasing" means. Having read through your previous debates, you've been arguing that when your character phases, he's essentially not there anymore. I believe your words were "he's no longer physical." After discussing it with Decoy Elite, and looking up Kitty's powers here on Comic Vine's wiki, that's not true. 
 
When Kitty phases, the only thing that's happening is her molecules moving in between the molecules of other objects. The closest thing I can think of to use as an example for that right now is water. Water is a liquid, which means it's molecules have the ability to move pretty much however they want. It can seep in between openings, but that does not mean it's still not a state of matter. It is still a physical object in a physical world that can be affected by physical elements. Kitty's powers, according to the wiki, are similar. The difference being that she has much more freedom than a liquid. A liquid seeps between small openings, but Kitty can seep, or to be more accurate, "phase" between other molecules, but like a liquid, that doesn't mean she is unaffected by outside forces. Moreover, outside forces are affected by her as well. That's why people can feel here when she goes through them, that's why she has trouble going through sturdier objects like Vibranium and Adamantium, and that's why when passing completely through a solid object, she has to hold her breath. If she didn't have to do any of that, then she wouldn't be physical. Her powers would work in a completely different way. It'd have to involve something else, something magical. However, that's not the case. Her powers aren't magical, they're not astral projection, all they are is phasing through solid objects by a physical means. 
 
Are you following so far? It's imperative that you understand what was just stated because it's the foundation that my entire offensive strategy is going to be based on. 
 
Having everything play up to this point according to the strategy you gave (whether you agree on the outcome is irrelevant now, because it was already debated upon, so it's up to the voters to decide if it worked or didn't), Nexus knows a few things about your character now. He can obviously move through walls, he can even move through the floor, he has a sword, he can't detect him with his hearing because he didn't hear him coming, which will lead him to believe he is fighting yet another opponent with a Vibranium suit, and he has a huge advantage as long as he's in a maze. So what is his solution? Either move to an open space, or make an open space. Based on how the battle field is presented, all I see is one big arena. One big arena with a lot of open space, and Nexus actually starts by the wall of that big arena. All Nexus has to do is get out in the open, and the chances of your character sneaking up on him again significantly diminish, because there are no walls near by that can be used to sneak through. Now if you're saying that there's still a chance that Nexus will get hit before he goes out in the open, then you would have to prove that your character is fast enough to tag him, which I don't see happening due to Nexus having superior speed. Now I suppose you could say that all your character has to do is throw his smart disc at him, which would be a pretty smart thing to do. That smart disc is definitely going down, though. All Nexus has to do is have his fire an electric bolt at the thing and it's gone. If Johnny Ohm has enough power to bring down a stone temple as shown in the scan, a Frisbee with blades should be nothing. 
 
Alright, so Nexus is now out in the open. What does that mean? A lot of things, but most importantly, it means that if your character has any hope of doing damage, he'll have to come out in the open with him and attack him close range combat. That means he'll have to be seen, because there's no other place to hide...except for the ground, which I suppose is one good way to go about things. Something of a reverse whack-a-mole. Your character constantly poking and prodding with his sword hoping to get a hit, but keep in mind that as soon as Nexus so much as feels a tickle going through his shoe, he's going to step out of the way before your guy lodges the sword and solidifies it. Also, if your character is no where to be seen, that means Nexus is going to be paying more attention to the ground anyway, because that's the only place your guy can hide out, so that's sight working in his favor, too. As soon as he sees the sword, he'll step elsewhere. He definitely has the capabilities to do so, even without the spider sense, and it should also be noted that your character can't stay underground forever. Remember, Kitty has to breath, and so does your character. What does that mean? Guess what's under the floor. The ground. Guess what's under the ground. More ground. Unless your character has an oxygen tank with him, he will have to come up for air every so often, because the world record for holding one's breath under water is 11 minutes and 35 seconds. Impressive, right? Well, I doubt your character set that record, so he'll be stuck with the average for adult male's holding their breath, which is between 1 and 2, if you're really good, 3 minutes. Just for holding. Now if your character is going to be doing anything else that requires physical action, that means his muscles will be moving, which means he's going to need more air, more oxygen to do that, which means less time underground, which will force him to come to the surface anyway. (On a side note, this is why I think Oblivion Knight's plan against your guy in would have worked in the first round. Had he of stayed and argued up to the point of voting, I would have given mine to him, because people cannot breathe through a pool of water, phased or not. Your character is still a physical being in a physical world, that still is forced to function by physical means, i.e. breathing, but that debate has passed, so let's not go into it.) I'll give him about a minute. That means he'll have to fight Nexus in the open in order to win, otherwise, Nexus will be standing and looking, as cautious as ever, waiting for your guy's attack, and I'm sure you know that if any physical, close range combat were to be waged between our characters, mine wouldn't be touched, because he's fighting something that's in front of him, and can see each attack come as it comes, and react accordingly. He'll never be touched. 
 
Now for the fun part. I'm sure up to this point, you've been reading, understanding, and saying to yourself, "okay, even if everything you say does hold up, how in the world are you going to touch me?" Excellent question. How does one hit something he can't touch? Well, the answer isn't that complicated. It's not a trick question. Plain and simple, the answer is he doesn't. Your character can stay phased the entire match, and Nexus won't have any way to inflict damage. I think Retnex gave a limit on how long a phaser can stay phased for this tournament. Yeah, it was an hour, wasn't it? Either way, I doubt our guy's will be fighting for an entire hour. They'd both get tired. Neither side would hit the other, and it'd end in a stalemate. You may disagree, but that's just how it is. My character can't touch yours, and yours won't touch mine. That said, there is still a way for my character to pull out a win. Right now, you're probably going like, "Really? Please, humor me." Well, I assure you, this is no laughing matter. 
 
Since your character will have to be up close, swinging his sword looking for the chance to stick it through Nexus's throat or somethin', that means he'll be within range for Nexus to stick his light saber through your character's neck. You may be saying, "Okay, so what. It's not going to hurt me, what good will that do?" Well, as I mentioned before, phasing does not mean going out of physical existence. Your character is still a part of the world, and your character still has to breathe. The light saber should impede that breathing, severely limiting your character. How long do you think he can keep fighting while holding his breath? Like I said with the underground thing, I'll give him a minute. Your character does not have the reflexes to avoid it, but Nexus does have the reflexes to avoid all of the attacks your character dishes out, and with your guy losing air, he's going to pass out long before Nexus even thinks about getting tired. As long as he's within the light saber's reach, Nexus should win. I presented a similar method in the last round, but said it would be impractical for X-head to even try it because all you'd have to do is swing your sword, and he'd go down. That's not the case here. Nexus can and will dodge anything and everything your character does, and that light saber is going to stay positioned right where your guy's throat is. Even if Nexus accidentally let's go of it for a second (something that I believe won't happen due to his agility) the electric field he generates around him should be strong enough to slightly mimic the power of the Force, in terms of telekineses, so yeah, it will definitely be staying right where he wants it. 
 
That's my plan for winning. The sum of the argument is this: Your character will have to come out in the open at some point, because if he doesn't nothing will happen, and as soon as he does and engages in close range combat, Nexus will cut off his air supply with his light saber, and dodge the rest of the attacks your guy throws out until he ultimately passes within the minute. Nexus is faster than your character in every sense of the word and I believe it's perfectly within reason to assume this will happen. Now once we debate the positives and negatives of this thing, we can move on to voting.
#22 Posted by Retnex (2264 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump
 
Are you two ready for voting?

#23 Posted by Fortanono (4889 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Changed My Mind. You Win.
#24 Edited by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure Dane would like to debate against the offensive strategy I just presented, so until he says otherwise, we're still discussing. I want to make sure the readers have a fairly even representation of both sides before making their decision. As a side note, I've been having a lot of fun. I actually PM'd Nobody asking for a more thorough explanation of the spider sense thanks to Dane. I think I understand it now to the point that Dane was talking about it, but still don't think that my initial thoughts on it were "low balling" in any way.

#25 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Fortanono said:
" @Dane: Changed My Mind. You Win. "
You'll be able to cast your vote soon enough. Hold up.
#26 Posted by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight: I'm a little bit busy right now, but I'll reply to your post asap. Sorry for the delay.
#27 Posted by Fist_of_Mandalore (1879 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide: Lol
#28 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @NexusOfLight: I'm a little bit busy right now, but I'll reply to your post asap. Sorry for the delay. "
It's all good. You got work that needs to be done, take care of it.
#29 Posted by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#30 Posted by Dane (10581 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight: 
Sorry for the delay, here is my response.
 

Nexus is not casually strolling through the park. He's not at ease, he's knows there is another character in the vicinity, he knows that character is the enemy, and most importantly, he knows that the other character is looking to kill him. How? Well, just looking over your guy's previous matches, all of his opponents have ended up dead. He doesn't want to die, so he is going to be cautious. He is going to be on the look out. He is going to be searching for any and every little thing that could potentially end his life. There is a major difference between that--searching--and merely glancing or seeing. 
 
If someone were in a room and were tasked with finding a hidden object, that someone is not going to sit there casually hoping the object will present itself in front of him in plain view. What are the chances of him actually finding that hidden object? Slim to none. Now if that person decided to actually take a more proactive approach in finding the hidden object, the chances of success significantly increase. Are you following up to here? I hope so, because the next part of my explanation depends on this key concept.

Incorrect. The harder you look for something, the less likely you are to find it, even in familiar places.
 
Consider that people lose things like their car keys every day and take something in the order of a half hour to find them. Late for work, they may search frantically to no avail.
Also, car keys can't hide inside walls and you don't have a half hour.
 


Look behind you. Now look back to your computer monitor. Look to your left. Then look to your right. Now look back to the screen. Look to the floor. Now look back again. Now can you honestly tell me that if you repeat this constant process of looking to and fro, searching high and low enough times that you won't be able to pick up on something moving towards you? Even if you can't hear it, can't smell it, can't feel it, you can definitely see it, or at the very least notice it if it's trying to sneak up on you. That is exactly what Nexus is doing. It's not him being the super special-ultra-mega-Sherlocke-Holmes-meets-Batman on speed detective work. It's merely being cautious. It's not like Nexus is scared or anything. He's just trying to take this fight as slow, calm, collective, and cautious as he can because he simply does not want to die, and all through this debate, you've made it quite clear that your character is going for the killing strike.

First core concept: You cannot see inside objects.
Second core concept: I am inside objects.
 
Third core concept: Looking behind you, to the left, to the right, forwards, up and then down takes at least 1 second per direction if you hope to take in any information. That's 5 seconds. Swinging a sword does not take 5 seconds. Furthermore, since you have no idea about my powers there is nothing to suggest you would pay attention to blank walls or floors. 
 
Also, it is a joke to try to say that your character is perpetually doing 360 rotations while walking. Not in the 'calm, collective and cautious' state you claim he is in.  
 
Here's a bunch of mercenaries and Ord, the greatest warrior of his race, whose combat intelligence allowed him to solo the X-Men. They don't have the kind of awareness you think a normal human has.
 



 
And Kitty doesn't have a Vibranium Suit to muffle her sounds or Daredevil's senses to tell their exact position.

 

Now in order for your character to successfully get behind Nexus, he'll have to constantly change his positioning to complement the change in direction of Nexus's head. Your character just simply doesn't have that kinda speed. How fast do you think someone would have to be moving from in front of a person's line of sight to directly behind it?

Incorrect. 
 
You can't see through walls, I can use radar-sense to see you through walls. I don't have to change position at all to avoid you if I stand behind a wall.
 

the exact spot Nexus is not looking, reveal his sword, thrust it, and let go without Nexus seeing or even feeling any part of that extremely delicate process

You seem to misunderstand. Shadowcat can phase parts of her body or parts of things she is carrying in and out. I could just phase the blade out while swinging it through a wall. I've mentioned it a few times now and you seem to describe it differently every time you mention it without ever addressing what I've said. 
 

Having everything play up to this point according to the strategy you gave (whether you agree on the outcome is irrelevant now, because it was already debated upon, so it's up to the voters to decide if it worked or didn't), Nexus knows a few things about your character now. He can obviously move through walls, he can even move through the floor, he has a sword, he can't detect him with his hearing because he didn't hear him coming, which will lead him to believe he is fighting yet another opponent with a Vibranium suit, and he has a huge advantage as long as he's in a maze. So what is his solution? Either move to an open space, or make an open space.


Everything here is pinned on you detecting my character. Once again, I would have to ignore all of my powers and walk straight in front of your face for this to happen.
 

That smart disc is definitely going down, though. All Nexus has to do is have his fire an electric bolt at the thing and it's gone. If Johnny Ohm has enough power to bring down a stone temple as shown in the scan, a Frisbee with blades should be nothing.

 
Actually, there's no guarantee on that. In the second movie a smart disc cut through about 5 frozen cow carcasses and then decapitated someone. It's made of an alien metal that is shown to be completely resistant to all damage, including the corrosive blood of the Xenomorphs. Theres nothing to suggest it would be damaged by electricity. It's possible that you could stop it but it's not entirely likely considering it's speed and homing qualities. Remember, reflexes and speed are not the same as accuracy.
 

Alright, so Nexus is now out in the open. What does that mean? A lot of things, but most importantly, it means that if your character has any hope of doing damage, he'll have to come out in the open with him and attack him close range combat. That means he'll have to be seen, because there's no other place to hide...except for the ground, which I suppose is one good way to go about things. Something of a reverse whack-a-mole. Your character constantly poking and prodding with his sword hoping to get a hit, but keep in mind that as soon as Nexus so much as feels a tickle going through his shoe, he's going to step out of the way before your guy lodges the sword and solidifies it.

So this is if you somehow detect me, then evade me and go out into the open. Right.
 
If I was in the floor, when I swing the blade out, I'm solidifying it as I lunge out with it, there is no magic warning in your shoe. There are so many 'if's' attached to you doing any of these things it isn't funny.
 

Since your character will have to be up close, swinging his sword looking for the chance to stick it through Nexus's throat or somethin', that means he'll be within range for Nexus to stick his light saber through your character's neck. You may be saying, "Okay, so what. It's not going to hurt me, what good will that do?" Well, as I mentioned before, phasing does not mean going out of physical existence. Your character is still a part of the world, and your character still has to breathe. The light saber should impede that breathing, severely limiting your character. How long do you think he can keep fighting while holding his breath? Like I said with the underground thing, I'll give him a minute. Your character does not have the reflexes to avoid it, but Nexus does have the reflexes to avoid all of the attacks your character dishes out, and with your guy losing air, he's going to pass out long before Nexus even thinks about getting tired. As long as he's within the light saber's reach, Nexus should win. I presented a similar method in the last round, but said it would be impractical for X-head to even try it because all you'd have to do is swing your sword, and he'd go down. That's not the case here. Nexus can and will dodge anything and everything your character does, and that light saber is going to stay positioned right where your guy's throat is. Even if Nexus accidentally let's go of it for a second (something that I believe won't happen due to his agility) the electric field he generates around him should be strong enough to slightly mimic the power of the Force, in terms of telekineses, so yeah, it will definitely be staying right where he wants it.


 Once again, there are around 6 'if's' attached to this. They all involve my character doing exactly what you want and your character doing several things he cannot reasonably be assumed to have to potential for. Namely, detecting my character, having a 360 degree view of everything, always and having swordsmanship you did not purchase.
 
The lightsaber thing has absolutely no basis. You have no basis for the kind of accuracy, swordsmanship or movement skills you're claiming. The fact that you think an electric field is in any way similar to the Force or telekinesis is offensively ignorant.
 
You, still to this point haven't ever countered the use of a sonic grenade, something I've mentioned several times. The fact that it would blow your ear drums clean out and has a very substantial radius I think this is a major point that you've totally skipped passed.
 
On the whole I would have to say I'm disappointed.
 
I'm ready for voting.
#31 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, good stuff. Very good argument. I feel I could address those points, but in the interest of time, I'm good with what's here. Let's get voting.

#32 Edited by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio

call  me crazy,biased,or whatever,but i think Nexus had the best argument by a very slim margin (although i dont really buy the suffocation thing)
 
*hides behind  a wall*

#33 Posted by Retnex (2264 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting has started.


 
1-0 for Nexus  
#34 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

This shouldn't even be put to a vote, Nexus is woefully outmatched here. Nexus has absolutely no means of finding Dane much less countering an attack. Whether it be Dane's grenades or his Muramasa, Nexus can stop neither before they are going off or plunging through his heart. Simply put, Nexus will be dead before he even knows it.

#35 Posted by Retnex (2264 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, for my vote. There's something I need to say. Superhuman Reflexes of Spider-Man was meant to include the Spider Sense (that's why I used Spider-Man). I see how the wording didn't really state that clearly. So what I decided to do is see what Nexus said. If he claimed that Spider Sense was included, I would defend it. Since he didn't, I decided to watch the debate and see how he handles it.
 
Now then, if Nexus is to make it to the next round he will have Spider Sense, but for my vote I will pretend he doesn't.
 
At first I didn't understand how Dane expected to stay within a wall/ground for so long that he could approach Nexus, since his character would have to hold it's breath. But there are rocks surrounding the walls that people can walk on, so I figured he could phase to the other side of the wall and get behind Nexus. At which point, he could rather easily kill Nexus. If Nexus did somehow spot Dane, it would become a contest of who gets the first hit.
 
I believe Dane made a better argument, and his character would win.

#36 Posted by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio

who what the heck,i vote for Dane too

#37 Posted by Retnex (2264 posts) - - Show Bio

3-0 Dane

#38 Posted by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio
@Retnex said:
" 3-0 Dane "
it seens the final will be me vs Dane....again
but this time i wont have to give up :)
#39 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Retnex: Whoa, you do realize that by me not knowing that, the entirety of both my argument and Dane's would have been changed, right? Right off the bat, that's what Dane said he'd be disputing, and right off the bat, I knew if that were the case, then this'd be an uphill battle. I did the best with what I had, and tried to make it convincing, but that spider sense would have made this a lot easier. I guess I'm cool with it, though, but dang, can't say I don't feel robbed. 
 
So 3-0 in Dane's favor, right? Cool, keep 'em comin'.
#40 Posted by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio

changing to Nexus,since he got Spider Sense and Retnex didnt tell him
i know i should vote for Dane,but the vote is mine and i do whatever i want to do with it :P

#41 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide: Ha, a bit wishy-washy? It's cool. I hope you're not giving me the vote just to make me feel better, though. If you honestly think Dane was the better debater, then you should vote for him.
#42 Edited by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight: 
i think he is the better debater,but Spider Sense nullifies the surprise attack advantage,hence i think your characther is more likely to win
#43 Posted by SilverSentry (2481 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait so now Nexus has Spider Sense ?
#44 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@SilverSentry: Apparently. I think as far as this match goes though, since it was established at the beginning that my character didn't, we should still go only with what's been presented. I think it'd be unfair to Dane if the premise of his entire argument was just thrown out the window after everything's been argued, so vote on what's here, and ignore the spider-sense, thing. Or, if you want to go over the arguments, and just take it for what it is, but assume the spider-sense is being used very poorly, then that's your thing, too. Your vote is your vote. 
 
@Matezoide: Alright, that's cool. Do what you do.
#45 Edited by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

In other news, Thanos Imperative is cool.

#47 Posted by SilverSentry (2481 posts) - - Show Bio

I will vote for Nexus as well seeing as the Spidey sense will remove any chance of surprise attack and countering phasing, sonic grenades or the predator throwing disk not to mention the huge speed and agilty advantage so you could simply avoid him until he becomes unphased and attack but yet I could have missed something and be wrong . 
  
either way I vote for Nexus.    

#48 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

So that's 2-2. Tie game.

#49 Edited by Fortanono (4889 posts) - - Show Bio

I Vote Dane. He's Got The Muramasa Blade.

#50 Edited by Fortanono (4889 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide: Yeah. Those Are My Votes :). I'm Afraid Dane Might Win Because He Has The Muramasa Blade :(.
@NexusOfLight: Now It's 3-2. In Which Dane Wins :(.