#1 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio

The Rules:

  • Win by any means! BFR, KO, Submission, etc. All in play!
  • No outside help! No armies, no summoning, no conjuring, nothing.
  • 1 Hour Prep: Exclusively used for discussing tactics, getting into position, digging trenches, no calling for help, or whatever.
  • That's all folks!

The Map!

  • : Start in the top right corner
  • : Start in the bottom left corner

The Teams:

Cadence V2

Heart of Blood (BT): Has his regular armor and sword

Daemon Prince M'Kar: Has his Possessed Dreadnaught Body.

God Emperor: Master Crafted Armour, Powerfist, Flaming Power Weapon, and Iron Halo

Kharn the Betrayer: Power Armour, Gorechild, Plasma Pistol, Mark of Khorn, Talisman of Khor



· Weapons: Masamune

· Armor: Escort Guard (Halves the effectiveness of Fire, Cold, and Electric based attacks)

· Accessories: Protect Ring (Permanent: Wall)

- Backpack: Elixer x2

· Materia: Haste, Revive, Restore, Lightning, Fire, Time

· Vehicles: None

Vincent Valentine:

· Weapons: Cerberus, Death Penalty

· Armor: Standard Armor, Mystile (Increases user's defense)

· Accessories: Tetra Elemental (Absorbs all elemental based attacks)

- Backpack: Elixer x2

· Materia: Shield, Barrier, Lightning, Time, Heal, Restore

· Vehicles: Hoverboard

Weiss the Immaculate

· Weapon: Heaven (Gunblade) and Earth (Gunblade)

· Armor: None

· Accessory: None

- Backpack: Elixer x2

· Materia: Shield

· Vehicle: None

Cloud Strife:

· Weapons: Fusion Sword

· Armor: Escort Guard (Halves the effects of Fire, Cold, and Electric based attacks)

· Accessories: Protect Ring (Permanent Wall)

- Backpack: Elixer x2

· Materia: Restore, Heal, Fire, Lightning, Time, and Barrier

· Vehicles: Fenrir

Thanks for reading,


#2 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: OOOH Snap! Ill beack with my opening Argument. :)

#3 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay: OOOH Snap! Ill beack with my opening Argument. :)

I tried to pick a map that both teams could use to maximize on their power sets. Your team for cover, tactical positioning, etc. My team for things to use with TK and causing general chaos.

Thanks for reading,


#4 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio


Im Back.

Alright here we go.

First off Feats for Emperor, Mkar, Kharn, ad HotB will be described and shown as needed.

Emperors whole History. 30K Years of it!

Daemon Prince general Info.

Blood Thirster Info Including the Higher Tier Anggrath The Unbound and Skarrbrand.

If ya dont know Kharn is by Now then SHAME ON U!!! http://www.comicvine.com/kharn-the-betrayer/29-84752/

#5 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio


Alright Emperor uses his Precog first to set motions best for me. HotB will do as it pleases. (Bad for me but in character) so Emperor will have to base Actions around HotB.

Mkar has a Assault Canon that does Major Damage for range.

The List of Mkar strength, durability, range attack, and metamorphing attacks.

Assault cannons Mkar has are standard anti tank round minigun. Added with the Daemonic Power of his it becomes powerful enough to one shot kill Terminator Armour Marines. Terminator armour usally can withsatnd 60 ton hits and Molecular Cutting weapons. The Speed of Assault Cannon are also Mutiple Machs like the Vulcan Cannons of Today.

Mkar also projects a aura of Fear and Rage at his enemies. It drives even Indoctrinated Marines to madness.

All this can help throw the game off Cloud (who has issues like no tommorow) and Weiss who never seem to have any showings to suggest otherwise. He seems a straight murdering Psycho.

So with Range from Mkar and his Negativity projection should allow Heart of the Blood do what it has to without reprisal. As shown all Blood Thirsters are superior warriors to superior warriors. Their skill nearly unmatch in combat. Their Strength is enough to lift 80 tons of Land Raiders with ease. On top of this Heart of the Blood always starts its attack with Blood storm.

This move alone should nearly kill and empower the Heart of the Blood. With your Regen you could recover but not before the Heart of the Blood Sword one of your guys to the hilt.

Meanwhile the Emperor Time Stops Sephiroth as he did the Chaod Gods Strom and Horus fung into the past.

He did this for about 20 seconds so for 20 secs seph be out of the battle.

Next would be Kharn charging whoever is left.

#6 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio


Cloud and Weiss vs. Madness

Heal materia should offer Cloud quite a bit of resistance towards any madness based attacks, as it offers resistance against confusion, berserk, charm, etc. etc. Yes, it is also very much cannon that this materia can do this.

Additionally, Cloud is not plagued by those issues anymore, the whole "Cloud has a whole lot of problems" thing is a let less relevant than you may think. The only other time he was plagued by mental anguish was when he was affected by Geostigma. And considering that Geostigma was mentally driven by Sephiroth, who at this point wanted nothing more than to choke the living #$%^ out of Cloud and destroy him on every level (physically, mentally, spiritually), I would think he was dealing with a lot heavier dose of it than everyone else....

The Maiden Who Travels the Planet


Aerith was eager to talk to Cloud as his living body flowed out of the swirl. She had been trying to while his body was being carried to Mideel. But with his mind shattered and filled with despair, Cloud couldn't hear Aerith's voice. No matter how much she cried out, her voice wouldn't reach Cloud just like the time when they were separated in the Forgotten City.

Helplessly watching Cloud's body return to the surface, Aerith stood in the sea of Mako in dismay.

* * *

"How can I save Cloud? How can I stop Meteor? I didn't think that Holy would be held back. At this rate, the Planet's going to end up the way Sephiroth wants it... What can I do? Tell me, Cloud..."

Aerith cried as she thought about the shattered Cloud that even her prayers wouldn't reach. His wrecked character could no longer be fixed. If he wasn't Cloud in the first place then, who was he? Knowing him only as a former member of Soldier, there was no way she could guess. She embraced the feeling of helplessness that she couldn't put into words.

"Cloud... I miss you. I miss the real you..."

Her whispers and thoughts became expanded into waves and spread out in the Mako.

Her memories of being with Cloud came to mind again. Her impression was that even though he wasn't very social, there was some cheerfulness about him.

"I felt something odd about him but, was everything really just made up and part of his false character? Cloud wasn't real at all? ...No, that can't be true. There were things that only Cloud could think of. Things that he done because he was Cloud. He was never an empty vessel to begin with!"

But she couldn't figure out the truth. Her thoughts just went in circles. Aerith delved into her memories again. Memories that showed Cloud's individuality. The way he walked. She remembered all his actions one by one...

Most of those thoughts merged into the Sea of Mako and awakened a character. The character recognized the image she recalled and "he" woke up.

"Aerith... Is that you?"

At first, Aerith couldn't remember whose voice it was because it was so sudden. Panicking, she turned round and saw a nostalgic face she hadn't seen for five years. He was her light taste of first love. He was also now a very dear friend who she hadn't seen ever since she heard nothing from him. He had the same character she saw in Cloud. Zack who had blue eyes that proofed he was in Soldier appeared before her. He had an image inferior to Aerith's solid image.

"Zack! Does that mean you're dead too?"

Although usually Aerith wasn't the one to ask obvious questions, it was the first thought that came to mind and she spoke out as if it was a reflex. Besides that, it was odd that such a seasoned and highly skilled Soldier would die. Even though she didn't know his whereabouts, she was sure that he was safe and living peacefully somewhere... She blamed herself for blindly believing in such a thing. This cruel reality was a strong shock for her.

""You too?"... Does that mean you're dead too, Aerith? Well, I was going to say the same thing anyway and then... How should I put this... Give my condolences?"

"You haven't changed one bit."

No matter what happened, Zack never lost his cheerfulness. As if saved by his cheerful personality, Aerith smiled weakly. Even though she knew that he was a member of Shinra's Soldier, it was that part of him that was charming to her.

"Lots of things happened. All terrible things. It all started when I was dispatched on a mission to the rural Nibelheim."


Weiss has a whole history of resistance towards madness, contrary to what you may think. As you recall there was a character I used in my previous debate named Nero. Nero constantly had wisps of darkness hovering around him, that ate at the darkest corners of people's memories who were near him. Weiss was his brother, and the two were pretty close, though eventually chained away from each other, he still has a history of dealing with such a thing.

"Yes, do you know about it? That time, I was together with a very famous Soldier that was known as a hero. He suddenly went mad..."

"You mean Sephiroth, don't you?"

Aerith swallowed her breathe. She believed that there was a meaning to why Zack appeared. She had a feeling it was linked to something.

"That bastard really is famous. Or was it because you read about the huge Nibelheim massacre in the news?"

"You were there at the time, Zack? Then what about Cloud...?"

"Woah woah, hold it there! How do you know about Cloud too? And is he safe?!"

"You know Cloud too. There really is a Cloud, isn't there?"

The two of them quickly exchanged what they knew. And then Aerith knew. She knew that Cloud wasn't just a cloned doll made for Sephiroth. She also knew why she saw Zack in him now.

Zack also knew. He knew the current state his close friend was in now. The friend who got involved together with him in the incident as they got hunted down by the Shinra. He also knew that Sephiroth was going to be resurrected and become a threat not just to Nibelheim but to everything on the Planet.

"Zack... What should I do so that Cloud will know about the truth about himself? Can you tell him that he's real?"

"It's impossible for us to do it. The only one who can do it is that girl that was there with us in Nibelheim, Tifa. If the memories she has could draw out the memories in Cloud then maybe..."

"That's going to be hard. But I won't give up. I'm sure there's a chance."

Aerith's face brightened now that there was hope. "When that's done, Cloud and the others will be able to do something about Sephiroth. They'll be able to remove the obstacle that's suppressing Holy.

Before long, the chance came.

* * *

Under pressure with the Meteor drawing near, the Planet released its massive biological destructive Weapons and the flow of the Lifestream was disrupted by their activities. The amount of energy that surged up onto the surface was never seen before. Gushing out into Mideel, Cloud who was peacefully resting there with Tifa nursing him by his side, both of them get swallowed up into the Lifestream.

Both of them were engulfed by Mako as they fell into the Planet. For Cloud, it was the second time but for Tifa, it was her first experience.

Aerith risked everything she had in this golden opportunity.

She desperately tried to talk to Tifa who was about to get intoxicated by the highly concentrated Mako. Guiding her conscious, Aerith took her into Cloud's closed heart.

In truth, Aerith really wanted to do it herself. But she couldn't carry out the task. That's why she entrusted Tifa with it. She entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her heart. She entrusted them to the one that was going to "live" together with Cloud...

Summary: During Cloud's madness he falls into the lifestream a second time, during this time Aerith literally grabs Tifa's soul and forces it into Cloud's body, and then Cloud's Jenova cells patch in Tifa's memories of Cloud and fill in some of the absent memories Cloud has, and thus cures him of his madness and a lot of the problems he has been under during the game. He still has the copied memories of Zack and some of Sephiroth's, however, he also has a good portion of his own memories back, and knows exactly who he is, and which ones are his and which ones aren't. He may be emo, but he ain't crazy!

On the Way to a Smile - Case of Yuffie


“Hey, you know,” interrupted Nanaki. “Materia is also said to be the crystallization of the Ancient’s knowledge.”

“Yeah, I heard about that.”

“Maybe the Ancients didn’t manage to heal the illness your mother has either. Maybe it never existed during the Ancients Era. So maybe there is no materia to heal it,” said Nanaki.

“Hey, Nanaki! You can’t say that. Maybe we just haven’t found any yet.”

“But think about it. If that kind of materia really existed, there wouldn’t be so many people infected—Ouch!”


Time, as you can see Aerith comments on the passage of time within the life stream being different than on that of the surface. However, materia does allow knowledge of the Ancient's to be passed through crystallized mako energy to allow the usage of such things like magic, and time magic (as shown with haste in Advent Children)

The Maiden Who Travels the Planet


In the world of Mako - Aerith knew that the concept of time and distance here was different from the surface. Time seemed to flow by slowly and if she wanted, it could also flash by in the blink of an eye. The passing of time in the Mako held no meaning in the first place. The Planet's history was made up of accumulated memories, all merged together and were always by her side. There were memories of the present and also of the past. There was no way that Aerith could have seen all of them but, the events that were inscribed into the memories had surpassed time and were all linked together as a whole. It hinted that time was moving into the future in the world of the living. As those new memories from the surface merge together with the Planet, new life would be brought into the world as the energy from the Planet is delivered. That cycle told her how time flowed by one period after another.

Everything was linked to the insides of the Planet through the Lifestream. Even on the surface, in the most distant places, the flow of conscious energy would be delivered. On the other hand, there were places that were so close but yet, the energy couldn't reach. There were areas that existed where even the winding flow of Mako can’t get to. Aerith thought it must be the fault of all the Mako reactors. The energy was never meant to be used that way and if they continued to draw it out by force, it will eventually upset the balance. If the Planet could help humans live a easier life then it probably would have done so. But Shinra Inc. was going too far. If their greed was to continue, then the equilibrium of the Planet's life would collapse... Aerith remembered how flowers would only bloom in the church and how the city of Midgar was drenched in Mako.

I have two pieces of Shield Materia....

Shield Materia can be used to fully trap an entire person for the better part of two minutes. They cannot be harmed, but they also are in full stasis and cannot move.

Jump to 3:40

Through Materia I can:

Stop any magic based enchantment placed on my guys or yours (via Dispel which is part of Heal materia). I can get rid of any ailment placed upon any of my guys (poisons, paralyzes, etc.), as well as give massive resistance (dang near immunity) via Resist (again, on heal materia). I can also cast resist during prep time, it should last quite awhile before it needs recasting.

I can haste any of my characters, and this should be able to counter any time materia you cast upon my guys, if not Dispel should take care of that.

I can give massive magic, elemental, physical, and other resistances towards my guys via Barrier materia. Again, I will be buffing my guys with this before battle.

Cure wounds, give regeneration (which I will do during prep time), etc. via Restore materia.

Cast devastating elemental attacks that give me a great degree of control over the battlefield.

Through items I can:

Elixers will cure my characters spiritually and physically, and that should be completely.

Magic items and potions are cannon in the Final Fantasy 7 series, they are not just a game mechanic. read the bottom paragraph.

On the Way to a Smile - Case of Shinra


The seemingly never ending long chute that lead all the way down to the ground floor from the President's Office gave enough time to think back through one's life. All the trivial memories that had been forgotten were revived one after the other. When Rufus realised that they were all linked to his father, he realised that he too was just another male— Another boy. A boy that just wanted to surpass his father and be praised but didn't know how to express his feelings and in the end, all he got from his father was being scolded and ignored. However, the fact that such an experience lead him to the now seemed to be more hilarious than any other joke he's heard in his life. In the darkness he laughed wholeheartedly.

The escape chute ended abruptly and Rufus found himself sliding into a bright room surrounded by white walls. It wasn't a very big room but Rufus didn't stop until he hit the wall opposite the chute.


Rufus laughed again at the pitiful sound he made. He noticed some of his rib bones had broken but he couldn't stop laughing. He continued to laugh, remaining in a pose that he would have found too disgraceful to show anyone when he hit the wall. However, his fractures eventually pulled him back to reality.

With his body still aching slightly from the escape route, Rufus turned to survey the room. It was approximately five square metres in size with white walls. Next to the chute's exit was a plain bed that reminded one of the hospital. The linen was high quality but clearly it hasn't been used for a very long time. The whole wall on the right was used as a closet. To the left was what looked like a door made from steel. While bearing the pain, Rufus tried to get crawl closer to it and looked over its structure. There wasn't a handle or signs of any traps. It had a small panel which seemed to be where the door was controlled from. But Rufus had no idea what the passkey could be and neither did he have the strength for trial and error. He gave up opening the door and turned to face the closet, getting up and dragging his feet towards it.

I'm in such a state I just can't bear to be seen by anyone. The closet doors opened easily. Inside were sterilised boxes made by Shinra. He reached for the bottom shelf—that was as far as he could reach—and pulled a box out. Engraved on the lid were the words, "For L".


Seeing the engraving made Rufus laugh with his nose up. Again, he couldn't suppress the laughter that welled up from within him but laughing made his ribs hurt. He managed to open the lid by keeping his laughter down. As he expected, inside were potions and other medicines from the pharmacy. Avoiding the deterioated magical items that may have turned into poison, he took some of the painkillers and waited for it to take effect to relief his body. His eyes were focused on the giant 'L' on the ceiling.

Through raw ability I can:

Weiss can create two clones of himself, both as strong as himself.

Control weather, collapse the battlefield around you, etc. etc.

Perform powerful attacks capable of cutting through just about anything (limit breaks) and attack directly at someone's soul.

etc. etc.

I'll post more feats and more counter arguments later, but let me know what you think of this so far.

I would like to post one more thing.

Gromph Baenre in the War of the Spider Queen series stated something that I think is very relevant here...

War of the Spider Queen, Book V: Annihilation

I see, Nauzhror replied and Gromph could feel that the other Baenre mage understood that Gromph had armed himself with the most potent weapon imaginable: the ability to perfectly anticipate every move of your opponent.

...The half-dragon assassin smiled at that, and Gromph saw him coming in with one wild slash after another, a flurry of claws, kicks, and head butts. Gromph had no idea what to do.

In the instant that Nimor started to run toward him, Gromph realized that knowing what your opponent intended to do might not be enough.

I leave you with that :D

Thanks for reading,


#7 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

Explain this further as none of the names sound familiar at all.

Gromph Baenre in the War of the Spider Queen series stated something that I think is very relevant here...

War of the Spider Queen, Book V: Annihilation

I see, Nauzhror replied and Gromph could feel that the other Baenre mage understood that Gromph had armed himself with the most potent weapon imaginable: the ability to perfectly anticipate every move of your opponent.

...The half-dragon assassin smiled at that, and Gromph saw him coming in with one wild slash after another, a flurry of claws, kicks, and head butts. Gromph had no idea what to do.

In the instant that Nimor started to run toward him, Gromph realized that knowing what your opponent intended to do might not be enough.


We Establish some of our abilities here.

I will now post the full fury of the Heart of Blood power.

First up is JUST his armour.

As seen here it littrealy can cast Blood Strom on its own and decimate a powerful Space Marine Psyker called a Librariun. It then takes it leave and uses the Sword to cut into Reality.

Here the Heart of Blood vs a Daemon Prince. Even wounded and depowered it showed to restore its power with Blood Storm. So any major attacks can behealed by Blood strom. It also decimated easily 2 armies of Iron Warrior Chaos Marines and Daemonic Engines.

Did I mention Heart of Blood is imune to Magic ;)

The reason Heart of Blood was weak as it was was becuase the Warsmith wanted to use its power to make his forress immune to Magical Attack. Like Kharn alot of your Materia cant touch it.

So him running out on his own is no problem.

Again Kharn will stay with M'Kar. Provide Close Support. The Emperor has power enough to Warp Storm a whole Solar System!

I think attacking a area of your guys is no problem. He also has Precog as to your nect move 20 seconds ahead of time.

#8 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Your move :)

#9 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay: Your move :)

Gimme a bit, I'll reply tomorrow or Monday or something. Also, the book quote was just something I wanted to make in reply to precognition arguments. I think it's a very valid point, and a really cool book (War of the Spider Queen Series is probably my favorite book series).

Thanks for reading,


#10 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio


I almost forgot about this thread!

Precog is nice and all, but he has to predict the movements of 6 people moving at speeds faster than the eye can see. (Cloud, Sephiroth, Vincent and 3 of Weiss).

Time stop should be negated here, he'll stop a localized area and my team can use Dispel to remove the effect.

Main Advantages

  • I think speed goes to my team. For almost every character, plus haste materia is kinda ridiculous.
  • I think Weiss's ability to duplicate and make 3 of himself is going to be huge.
  • Flight I think goes to my team. I have 1 levitator, 1 self-sustained flyer, 1 person with a flying vehicle (who can become a being with self-sustained flight), and Weiss can't fly.
  • I haven't seen a counter as to what will stop Shield materia from immobilizing anyone on your team but Kharn
  • Fire and Lightning are also a nice little addition. They have great AoE, the speed on those is bullet+ speeds, they're extremely destructive, and etc.
  • Melee combat range. All my melee weapons have extensive range on them, which means I can strike from much further and keep distance. Weiss's weapons all have guns within the hilt and can be used in real range.
  • Healing magic and items - Allows for a good degree of regeneration, healing, and etc. on my team.

Things we're about even on

  • Strength I believe is about even across the board.
  • I think our combatants are trained about as well as they can be with their arsenal and their powers. That is to say, a master with them.
  • Knowledge. I think our teams are relatively equal in their knowledge of opponents and their abilities. To be honest I see nothing in either of our arsenals that would be considered something "new" for the other team to deal with.

Things I think you have an advantage against me with

  • Precognition - I don't have, and you do. I think my teams speed and ability to pretty much become a blur in the corner of someone's eye will make precognition a little less effective, but at the end of the day it's definitely an advantage that you have it and I don't.
  • Experience - Training and knowledge are about even on both sides, that I'm pretty certain of. However, your team has thousands of years of combat experience that mine don't. I just want to acknowledge that.
  • Durability - What makes this such a good fight for me is that both sides have good feats of elemental resistance, but both sides have also shown that physical attacks are still very effective. However, your power armor definitely provides a greater degree of physical protection than anything my team has.
  • Natural Regeneration - As nice as healing magic is, and as nice as it is to be able to instantly heal oneself or ally. Self sustained regeneration is always a huge factor. It's the reason why characters like Deadpool and Deathstroke are such a huge threat.
  • Ranged Combat - I have materia, which is nice. I have Vincent who in his normal form can bust airships with his hand canon. However, you have more ranged guys, and more physical ranged weaponry. That's definitely a plus for you.

There are probably more factors I could put in all these categories, but these are the ones I can think of right now.


  • For prep, I will get my protective magic up. That is, Wall (halves effectiveness of magic, physical, and elemental attacks), Resist (Resist poisons, paralyze, magical effects like slow and stop, instant kills magic like death and death sentence, transmutations, etc.), Regen (provides regeneration), as well as get into position for attack
  • Charge! Cloud and Weiss will continue on foot, Their speed should allow them to cross town in no time at all. Vincent will lay down a barrage of gunshots, as well as lightning bolts, and if he gets within range, he'll shield one of your guys to freeze them in place for a good 90 seconds. Sephiroth will also lay down materia blasts, ranged slices, and use his TK to bring down a little destruction. He'll also call down a storm and rain darkness. This should help my team close the distance between our teams and minimize your team chances of hitting us.
  • Confrontation - I will definitely use my speed and range in melee combat to my advantage here. Also try and use my mobility to my advantage. Cloud and Weiss will move between medium and close range rapidly, with 3 of Weiss your team should be a little overwhelming in melee combat. Sephiroth will do the same, but he'll alternate between short, medium, and long range. Vincent will stay long range, and when my team is fully in position and Weiss has both his clones up, then Vincent will go Chaos and move in to alternating between short and long range, and use his massive speed to his advantage.

Thanks for reading,


#11 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio
After a brief look through Ibelievee I have theadvantagee in many ways thanks to Heart of Blood Sheer Power and constant empowerment through Blood Storm. 

Here we have the Heart of Blood at his weakest vs the Daemon Prince the Heart of Blood defeated ages ago. With a cast of Blood storm he easily defeated the Daemon Prince and had power enough to wreck the Iron Warrior Army below.  

Ontop of that the Emperor has Precog that entails 20 years of his futur in a blink. Far Lesser Psykers in battle Like Ahriman can predict 20 seconds of the immediat futur. 
As seen. Also we know the Primarchs had the power to see and react in FTL. Heres a Marine channeling a portion of the Primarch Sanguiness power who in turn could only received it from his Father. 

"Ariko could see the passage of bolts and laser blasts as if they were suspended in the air. He was invincible. By the lords, he was godlike. Arkio counted the Word Bearers in an eye-blink.”
-Deus Encarmine 
So as seen Emperor is reacting and Precoging WAY faster than anyone on that team. He has Psi Attacks in Warp Storms as well. He could turn a area into a no pass Zone with ease. 

So If he can storm out a Solar System he can a area of this map as no passing.  
So with this all in mind I have a Blood Thirster and Chaos Marine (Kharn) who are immune to any magical attack you throw as well the God Emperor and Daemon Prince M'Kar who shown the power to destroy whole swaths of area. I shown the Massive regen and durability of Heart of Blood, M'Kar, and heres some for the Emperor. The Primarchs Angron and Horus show off what Durability the Empero has here. 

GEoM is very durable. 
Also to take into consideration is the Skill of the Emperor (30K worth), Mkar (10K worth), Kharn (10K worth), and finaly HoB (Timeless worth) into Account. 

Heart of Blood as a Blood Thirster is battle incarnate and fleshed. Some of the greatest warriors are Bloodthirsters. 

Your Move!
#12 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio


Some of these things I'm going to need clarification for while I debate, so in your next rebuttal could you inform me on what I'm missing.

  • Bloodstorm attacked everyone it seems, so I see it harming your team as well. Additionally, can it conjure blood, or was it using blood that was present from the previous battle.
  • I read the Warp Storm, however, I also read up on warp storms and read through other Warp Storm examples, events, and looked through a couple Warhammer 40k wikis to see what I'm up against. Again, it is something that seems to cause massive interference within the Warp, and thus should cut most of your team off from their warp powers, and psy-powers, as it causes massive interference across the warp.
  • Additionally, much like Force Storm, it seems to be created from raw Warp energy, not actually electrical energy. I have already proven that both Chaos, and Sephiroth are capable of absorbing soul energy. Cloud has also been completely submerged in Mako energy for years on end, and it was enough to send him into somewhat of a vegetative state, but he survived it. This happened a second time, and he was able to survive it again (during the events of FF7, at the end of the second disk). Weiss was also chained within a giant Mako reactor for most of his life, and was able to take the power of Omega, a lifestream born Weapon.


  • I fully acknowledge your team has thousands of years of experience above mine. There is no argument that exist to say that my team's experience is more potent or valid than yours, because it's not.
  • However, I would like to point out that my team does have a plethora of knowledge against a huge variety of opponents. Demonic, natural, celestial, godlike, gods, dragons, immortals, telepaths, telekinetics, magic users, brutes, stealthers, mech, city-level threats, planet-level threats, technopaths, mutants, regenerators, things immune to magic, or physical attacks, etc. etc. I know your team has this same set of knowledge, I'm just pointing this out.
  • Finally, my team has shown they are masters of their trained weaponry.

The Battlefield:

  • Vincent and Weiss have shield materia, and both have FTL reaction times and can enter speeds of those levels (Vincent in Chaos form, and Weiss was able to dodge and more importantly block a shot from Death Penalty).
  • Sephiroth and Vincent (again, Vincent in Chaos form) have both demonstrated the ability to phase through solid objects. Sephiroth in his first appearance in FF7 (there are more, but I'd have to google for awhile to find out where, it's been years since I played the game), Vincent in Dirge of Cerberus when he was shown having Weiss's sword phased entirely through him.
  • Sephiroth also has teleportation, both long and short ranged (Short Ranged demonstrated in Dissidia, and in Crisis Core when he fights Zack, and Long Ranged in the Temple of the Ancients)
  • Cloud without haste was able to dodge Kadaj's lightning bolts, and Yazoo's bullets (from point blank range while he was riding a motorcycle and fighting other people mind you).


  • It would seem between my destructive magic, your warp storms, your bloodstorms, Sephiroths telekinesis, and my teams ability to pretty much cut/shoot through whatever the hell they want, our teams are pretty much equal on battlefield control
  • I think my team has the mobility advantage. Unless you can provide me some decent mobility feats to prove otherwise. I think that'll be a key factor when it comes to battlefield manipulation.

Magic Immunity

  • I wouldn't mind a post of this feat to be honest. I know it says under his profile that he is. But the thing that makes me wonder is a lot of Warp magic has warp energy as it's attack type, as in actually magic damage. In the Final Fantasy universe, they aren't conjuring Mako fire, or Mako lightning, they are conjuring real lightning, and they are conjuring real fire. It's not mako damage, it's electric and heat. It'd be like saying they are immune to grenades if the grenades are pulled from a Bag of Holding.


Seeing as this is going to come down to votes, I think I should post a few more feats down here, though I do believe you have seen most of them, I'll Spoiler Block it so you can just scroll past it if you don't wanna bother.

Note: I pulled a lot of these from a couple previous debates, so sue me if there is some irrelevent information in there :P


Soul Absorption: Okay, the main example of this actually comes from FF7, and I can't remember where in the game it reveals it to you. However, Sephiroth's main plan in the game is to call down something called "Meteor" to crash into the planet. Once this happens, all the mako energy of the planet (the lifestream, aka, the souls of every living thing once it passes) will flow towards that wound to heal it. Sephiroth plans on standing within this wound to absorb the energy and become powerful enough to become the planet, and sail the cosmos with that planet as his vessel (his body). Additionally, Sephiroth resides in the Northern Crater, which is where his mother, Jenova, had crashed into the planet. While residing within this crater, Sephiroth is able to absorb the lifestream as it flows through that wound in the planet, as well as absorb the corrupt souls of people anywhere in the lifestream. It's the main premise of FF7 that Sephiroth has this ability. Also, he becomes more powerful as he absorbs more life energy.

The Maiden who Travels the Planet

Now, Hojo was infused with Jenova, but as it stated President Shinra's soul was also sucked into Sephiroth, and he had zero Jenova cells in him, so the proof is still there:


"...Father realized that the Planet was more important than science."

Aerith found out when Tifa and Cloud’s memories merged with the Lifestream when they fell. She also found out that it was Hojo who shot her father when he tried to stop him from taking her as a newborn sample.

"Ha, that was the limits of Gast. Stopping and not doing what remained to be done was blasphemy to science... Heh, it’s time for our talk to end."

Without showing the least bit of guilt, Hojo turned his head in the direction of the Northern Crater in the distance.

"My son- Jenova's ruler is calling. He’s asking for more life energy. Hahaha, I shall offer myself. Then he will become one with me, the one who he hated the most and looked down upon. This will be our reunion."

Hojo, who had merged with Jenova was drawn away just like President Shinra that time. Laughing happily with madness, he was sucked towards the bottom of the gravity well.

Sephiroth's Destructive Attacks, Telekinesis, Weather Manipulation, Darkness Control, Flight, Speed, Reaction Time, etc. etc. He does most of this with zero effort if you notice. In fact, Cloud only beat him by taking him by surprise and performing an attack directly through his soul.

Also contains some feats for Cloud

Some more of Sephiroth, again, he is doing this for fun and training with someone. As you can see he exerts zero effort.

Sephiroth phasing through solid objects

Sephiroth can pull people into their own nightmarish hell, and project illusions. Does this all of once throughout the game.

Vincent Valentine:

Weiss the Immaculate Emperor:

Skip to 1:15

Weiss continued: This is after he finishes pummeling your character like a little #$%^ (The little girl is the one I didn't want to use, she's a little overpowered against your team. Her name is Shelke and her power is pretty much complete control over Power suits...as well as more than a few other things, but yeah...)

Whoops! Forgot to tell you, he has self duplication. Notice at one point he creates 3 of himself.

Everyone bound by this Restrictor guy is pretty much left in complete stasis when they are hit by his paralyze attack, and are forced to follow his command. Weiss is so powerful, however, that he is able to resist this to some degree. I want you to notice how he gets hit by this attack multiple times, and though it prevents him from attacking the restrictor, it's pretty obvious that it's barely effective on him.

Weiss battle. Pay attention to how fast he's moving, how he has no care for the fact that he's being shot (this is gameplay, but the feats are there to show off his strength), his use of shield materia (he creates a little circle in front of him that blocks all damage), his dark orbs, and the huge shockwaves he creates with his sword. You can also see him rally off machine gun fire with his gunblades.

Now then, we know how powerful Weiss's attack are at this point. So now I want you to pay attention as to how Vincent can tank a few shots from Weiss in this scene. He uses his dark orb abilities, his ranged slash, shockwaves, and his machine gun fire with his swords. He also uses his shields a few times in this scene. The little circle that appears in front of him to stop gunfire in battle, that's shield materia. He also spins his sword in front of him in a similar manner to block bullets and oncoming attacks as well, you'll see that in a moment.

After this him and Nero combine together. However, the two don't really unleash their power until he transforms into his Omega form, which we won't be using here. This is him prior to the full transformation, while Omega is still coming to life (at the end of the video, you'll see what I'm talking about). He tanks a shot from a Chaos transformed Vincent (and it clearly hits him, he does not dodge that), and then we can see Vincent phase through an attack so fast we don't even see him make it. This is the full power of the two.


Video 1


Notable Scenes:

10:00-12:30 - Cloud Fighting on Fenrir against 2 Super Soldiers. Also note these are the Shadow Creeps which Kadaj can summon

Video 2


4:30-4:50: First application of Haste

15:00 - 19:00 - Keep in mind, Cloud in this scene is affected by Geostigma, a virus that causes him severe pain and is wreaking havoc on his body/mind.

Cloud tanks shots from Loz, which are capable of collapsing trees in a mystical forest. Also dodges gunfire in this scenario using the 2nd smallest blade in his sword.

Cloud shows off his limit break (every so often, as Cloud battles he gets to use these limit breaks. The longer the fight, the more powerful they become). This particular one is called Blade Beam, he uses it to destroy that wave of Earth Loz blows in his direction.

Cloud is deflecting bullets at near point blank range with his swords. No small feat of reflex. Additionally, he is dodging attacks from characters while they are using haste materia. He also fights Yazoo and Loz simultaneously, both moving at super human speeds.

Ends with Kadaj vs. Cloud briefly. At this point, Cloud is too weakened to really handle Kadaj as you can see.

This is where Vincent Valentine shows up and saves him. Notice how his cloak pretty much hides his entire person, and how he rallies off a bunch of shots (all of which Kadaj is capable of dodging, something else to take note of).

Another thing to pay attention to is Vincent's ridiculous speed, and mobility. It's almost impossible to keep track of him with that cloak, and they have to slow down the scene to show him moving.


Video 3


4:00-4:30 - Again, Kadaj summoning swarms of Shadow Creeps. Notice how they are throwing human beings around like they are nothing. Also they aren't too bad for speed either. They may not be able to harm your team, but they are more than capable of acting as canon fodder, and giving your team some unwanted chaos around the battle field.

11:10-11:30 - Bahamut SIN, his blast takes out center of the city in a single blast. Note this for later

12:00 - 13:00

Kadaj is toying with Reno here for awhile. Then around 12:30 he kicks him like 30 meters or more.

Video 4


2:00-End -

Vincent Valentine, shows off his agility here a little bit. Remember, Vincent's shots can go through airships like a bullet going through paper (I'll show this fact later). Also, none of these attacks are having any affect on Bahamut SIN.

Cloud flies through a blast from Bahamut SIN without taking any damage, something to take note of.

Cloud uses two limit breaks in a row here. Start off with Climhazzard and then finishes with Cross Slash. Bahamut took no damage from anything, including Cloud's original attacks which shred through steel efffortlessly (I'll prove this later on), and suddenly this attack tears through it's back and then knocks it unconscious with another blow.

Video 5


2:20 - 3:00 - Fire Materia blows apart the top floor of that building

4:10-6:40 - Motorcycle fight scene!

Notice Cloud's ability to maneuver that motorcycle and deflect bullets. This has to say something to his reaction time and situational awareness.

Cloud is also fending off assaults from Loz (if you pay attention you can see blue streaks across the screen from when he uses haste), while simultaneously deflecting bullets from Yazoo, and in order to do these things he spinning his bike around like a merry-go-round .

In a split second Cloud leaps off his bike, cuts the motorcycle Loz throws at him in half, then turns back around, deflects an oncoming assault for Loz, tanks a few hits, and then continues to deflect bullets and defend himself against Loz, and sometime throughout that portion of time he detaches a second blade from his Fushion sword, and begins blocking both Yazoo and Loz at the same time. Then he attacks both of them, destroys Loz's arm piece, and lands back on top of his motorcycle and speeds away from them. Notice how most of this portion of this scene is done in slow motion, meaning they were moving much faster than what is shown.

7:30-8:00 - Motorcycle Fight Scene continued!

Kadaj stops a blow from Cloud, tanking the weight of Cloud's motorcycle combined with the force of his blow as well.

9:30-10:20 - Kadaj vs. Cloud! Part 1

Kadaj uses Lightning Materia to open the fight, creates a pretty big boom. Cloud is capable of dodging it, even though it is moving at speeds which look to be faster than a bullet.

Aerith cures Cloud's Geostigma (Aerith is the most powerful character in FF7, it's a long story).

11:30-14:30 - Kadaj vs. Cloud! Part 2

Kadaj opens with Lightning again. Notice the scene slows down to show how fast those things are supposed to be traveling, and Cloud is still a blur when he dodges them. Also, he fires more than 1 bolt, unlike he did originally.

Notice how fast Kadaj is. Clearly he outclasses Cloud in speed (probably because of Cloud's big weapon), nonetheless though, Cloud is more than adept at dodging and parrying his blows.

Kadaj manages to even disarm Cloud at one point, which is pretty impressive. Another thing to note is that Kadaj is only using one arm, because his other arm is occupied holding his mother's head in a box (it's a long story). However, even without the box I have serious doubts he could keep up with Cloud for long. As you can see Kadaj is fighting with everything he's got and pretty much making a last stand. While Cloud is having little problem keeping up, and spends most of the fight just waiting for the right time to finish him off.

Notice how you see no sign of Cloud being there, and then hear a gust of wind and he's there, in the scene where Kadaj is dangling from the ledge.

14:30- - Cloud vs. Sephiroth! Part 1

Notice the crater and the shockwave created by the impact of Cloud's blade on Sephiroth's. Also take note of the fact that Sephiroth is completely unphased with a big smile on his face. Also he greets him before Cloud's body moves from it's current position (of floating in the air with his blade connected with Sephiroth's). So this happens in an instant, hence the slow motion when it originally occurs.

Throughout this scene you can see Cloud's limited flight abilities in use, he never really "flies" but he does levitate longer than most would in certain scenarios, he can stand sideways on a building, he can maneuver in ways while in midflight that nobody else would be able to. Sephiroth shows off his flight this whole time.

Sephiroth shows off his atmospheric manipulation, turning the weather from sunny to a full blown thunder storm in an instant (I thought it took longer, but apparently it doesn't).

Notice the speed at which Sephiroth is flying, and his tactical approach. He doesn't fly directly on top of Cloud, he creates a darkness cloud around him self, then disappears and attempts to flank Cloud from the side. All of this in moments.

Cloud crashes through the side of a building and takes no real damage from it. The two fight in the dark, I know the speed doesn't seem like much, but pay attention to this scene. They are both using the darkness to their advantage, flying/maneuvering around pillars and attempting to flank the other and catch them off guard. The strike speed is not impressive, but the fact that they are always trying to get the tactical advantage over the other is. And they are traveling a pretty good distance while they are doing this, so it is happening relatively fast.

Sephiroth slices through that concrete pillar as if it wasn't even there.

Cloud SHOVES Sephiroth through a wall, with little effort. Sephiroth's completely unharmed by this by the way. And it looks like he shoved him through multiple floors with that one push, not just the one, as Cloud had to fly a decent distances to get out of that building.

Sephiroth is cutting off chunks of the building above Cloud to rain destruction down on top of him after the previous scene.

Cloud displays another limit after that fact, he does a multi-directional cone attack. That wasn't in the original FF7, so I don't know what it's called.

Notice the two deflecting each other and dodging. Again, I know the striking speed doesn't seem impressive, but notice the distance they have to move to get out of the way, and then instantly come back and counter. The two seem more interested in finding the best tactical position to strike than just going for an all out blitz. Which is understandable.

In the next scene Cloud and Sephiroth easily slice through some giant slabs of steel, pretty impressive.

Sephiroth shows off telekinesis in the next scene. Notice how he collapses the top of that tower over the top of Cloud.

Cloud continues to cut through it pretty well, but that's not the important part. It's impressive, but the most important part is notice how Sephiroth doesn't flee and watch the outcome, he ambushes Cloud in the center of all the destruction. Again, tactics.

This is where speed is being shown off. Notice how slowly the rubble falls beside them, then pay attention to the speed of their attacks. They definitely have the ability to strike at ridiculously fast speeds.

Sephiroth and Cloud both use a combination of their weapons and their hand to hand ability in combat. It's something to really watch for.

Video 6 - Omnislash


0:00-1:00 - Cloud's most powerful limit occurs after he's been in combat for a good amount of time> It's called Omnislash, and it appears to strike directly into a person's being and lightning speeds.

Video 7 - Fire Materia Again

1:48-2:30 - Yazoo shoots Cloud, yet Cloud continues to fight, even after being shot through the chest. Then he gets blasted by both Yazoo and Loz with Fire Materia.

Thanks for reading,


#13 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio


Blood Storm in the Novels is describe as a whirlwind type attack the rips the blood from foes. Those that resist (a Librariun and Daemon Prince both have) will still be drai drai a bit. Everybit of blood drain is empowering to the Heart of Blood. Also it can attack my own. "Khorn cares not from where the Blood flows from, only that it flows." Also the Heart of Blood would be single minded in its attack of a enemy. Reason why M'Kar and GEoM would stay out of distance (seems like 30 meters) and Kharn would be Immune to its attack with his Blessings.

Warp Storm is used in the Warp as well manifested physicaly in the Universe. Here a Eldritch Storm of a Eldar Farseer. Eldritch storm is a Localise Warp Storm.

As Seen it is very very powerful and one shots most Power Armour Marines.


  • It would seem between my destructive magic, your warp storms, your bblood storms Sephiroths telekinesis, and my teams ability to pretty much cut/shoot through whatever the hell they want, our teams are pretty much equal on battlefield control
  • I think my team has the mobility advantage. Unless you can provide me some decent mobility feats to prove otherwise. I think that'll be a key factor when it comes to battlefield manipulation.

I think where your team has moMobilevadvantageine has Defense as well use of Cover. Its harder to asassaulthan to hold high ground to say.

Magic Immunity

  • I wouldn't mind a post of this feat to be honest. I know it says under his profile that he is. But the thing that makes me wonder is a lot of Warp magic has warp energy as it's attack type, as in actually magic damage. In the Final Fantasy universe, they aren't conjuring Mako fire, or Mako lightning, they are conjuring real lightning, and they are conjuring real fire. It's not mako damage, it's electric and heat. It'd be like saying they are immune to grenades if the grenades are pulled from a Bag of Holding.

I dontdon'te any real feats as Kharn has only his short book and Pre Heresy (Before Blessings) to go on. What I do know is Gorechild can and has devour Souls with a hit. I also dontdon'te my Dead Sky Black Sun Novel that explains how Fire made from Magic or Lightning made from a SorcSorcery'srce failed to breach the Heart of Blood force field as it simply umadunmade attacks spawned from magic.

I see where it makes sense that its real lightning and there is plenty of attacks from Pykers that are actual fire in the Universe but the reality Warping power of the Warp is needed to manifest it and fails to breach the Blessings of the Blood God. So unless its ScienScientifically fire or lightning then my Blessings should be immune to it.

Best Example is the Heart of Bloods Armour totaly immunity to the Librariuns Psychic efforts.

Also as for light speed attacks Im not too worried as the GEoM as I shown is FTL in reaction and has his Precog to help. Add in the clear Thousand ton strength of GEoM and M'Kar as well the durability I have Shown should easily hold off Lightspeed attacks. A good Warpstorm all around me and the Heart of Blood Blood Storm ability will be hard for your guys to get near to do anything. A TP assault from the Emperor is pretty devastating as well.

A Alpha Level Psyker powers are in desease form and he rules a empire of minds in Solar Systems.
His Power alone holds a ship together till he let it falls on the Soul Drinker Space Marines as a form of attack.
His Power inffects a star!
His Mind and TP reaches across his Solar Systems.
He detected the Chief Librariun Sarpedon of the Soul Drinkers mind from Solar Systems away!

Anyway this is a Alpha Level Psyker. The Emperor and Mganus the Red are Alpha Plus Psykers. Their power reaches Galaxy Distance like the Warp Storm known as the Emperors Wrath have.

Anyway I think I posted enough.

#14 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio


To be honest I don't think my team has anyway to defend themselves against a galaxy level blast of lightning, or an ability that completely rips the blood from anyone who isn't a god. I think your team has me on this one.

Thanks for reading,


#15 Posted by nick_hero22 (7972 posts) - - Show Bio

Me and CadenceV2 should do a tag-team debate against someone, AVP and WHK40 vs .......

#16 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22: That would be fun.

@Floopay said:


To be honest I don't think my team has anyway to defend themselves against a galaxy level blast of lightning, or an ability that completely rips the blood from anyone who isn't a god. I think your team has me on this one.

Thanks for reading,


#17 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio


Yeah, I think I'm gonna have to concede this one. At best my guys perform a City-Level attack, and have tanked shots from planet busters. I don't think I can deal with a galaxy buster.

Thanks for reading,


#18 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Solar System Buster. Not Galaxy.

#19 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay: Solar System Buster. Not Galaxy.

Well damn, how was this even kind of a fair fight then. I was hoping for a real debatable match, not a completely stomp and mismatch of epic proportions! :P

Thanks for reading,


#20 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: LOL Now you know my pain from the last match. :)

#21 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Hey would ya be up for a Strictly comic 1 on 1 match? also whats going on with that Tourney of yours?

#22 Posted by Floopay (9028 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay: Hey would ya be up for a Strictly comic 1 on 1 match? also whats going on with that Tourney of yours?

I'll get a tally. And I wouldn't mind a 1v1 match. Who do you want to use?

Thanks for reading,


#23 Posted by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Jean Grey. Or Ultimate Magneto. Or Ultimate Iron Man.