VS
Has Tim improved enough to defeat Daredevil? Are Daredevil's acrobatics, MA skills, and enhanced senses too much for the 3rd Boy Wonder?
They fight in Bludhaven. Both have standard equipment. This is for a KO.
What happens?
Red Robin(Tim Drake) VS Daredevil
Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this.
Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss.
But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt
" Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "Good analysis mate, Tim has become a top fight, he's in the top 15 fighter in DC maybe even the top ten but DD is one of marvels top Martial artist and is in the same league as Wolverine and Iron fist so he should win this fight.
" Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "He beat Ra's top assassins on his own.
"Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "
Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie?
" @Silver2467 said:I would say possibly top 15 but not top 10. He is an excellent combatant, but he has work to do before he rises through the ranks that far." Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "Good analysis mate, Tim has become a top fight, he's in the top 15 fighter in DC maybe even the top ten but DD is one of marvels top Martial artist and is in the same league as Wolverine and Iron fist so he should win this fight. "
" @Son_of_Magnus said:I don't have scans, but as Robin, he was trying to stop Cassandra from killing her father, David Cain."Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
" @blade hunter said:Tim isn't top 15.I can name 15 fighters that are better. :)" @Silver2467 said:I would say possibly top 15 but not top 10. He is an excellent combatant, but he has work to do before he rises through the ranks that far. "" Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "Good analysis mate, Tim has become a top fight, he's in the top 15 fighter in DC maybe even the top ten but DD is one of marvels top Martial artist and is in the same league as Wolverine and Iron fist so he should win this fight. "
" @Son_of_Magnus said:5 basic no namers and he never actually defeated them he spent both of those fights on the run and trying to get away he took them down by blowing up Ra's fort and dipping on a bat line" Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "He beat Ra's top assassins on his own. "
" @velle37 said:" @Son_of_Magnus said:I don't have scans, but as Robin, he was trying to stop Cassandra from killing her father, David Cain. ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
She was drugged at the time right? Then there was the gun situation, the lights go off, come back on, and ninjas are dead...... That the right one?
I need to find scans of this.......
" @Silver2467 said:I don't remember all of the circumstances. It has been a long while since I've looked at that issue. Sorry." @velle37 said:She was drugged at the time right? Then there was the gun situation, the lights go off, come back on, and ninjas are dead...... That the right one? I need to find scans of this....... "" @Son_of_Magnus said:I don't have scans, but as Robin, he was trying to stop Cassandra from killing her father, David Cain. ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
" @Son_of_Magnus said:No scanner sorry but it is issue 151 of Robin he nearly takes her out due to readiness but is badly beaten from a previous fight with LOA members and the battlefield they are on is rigged with explosives set up by Cass"Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
" @velle37 said:Tim was very impressive in that storyline. His break in, his interrogation of David Cain, and his battle with Cassandra." @Son_of_Magnus said:No scanner sorry but it is issue 151 of Robin he nearly takes her out due to readiness but is badly beaten from a previous fight with LOA members and the battlefield they are on is rigged with explosives set up by Cass ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
" @velle37 said:" @Silver2467 said:I don't remember all of the circumstances. It has been a long while since I've looked at that issue. Sorry. "" @velle37 said:She was drugged at the time right? Then there was the gun situation, the lights go off, come back on, and ninjas are dead...... That the right one? I need to find scans of this....... "" @Son_of_Magnus said:I don't have scans, but as Robin, he was trying to stop Cassandra from killing her father, David Cain. ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
I think this was when Deathstroke drugged her since he couldn't have Rose. Used her, Tim came to stop her they fought, David gave her a gun to kill him with, the light went out, came back on, and the other ninjas were dead and Cain was gone. This cultivated suspicion on Cassie about killing the ninjas, later found out to be David's doing, he snapped their necks and left.
I don't see Tim taking Cassie in a straight fight. Even drugged he should lose horribly, but eh............
" @Silver2467 said:In the DC universe? go for it mate." @blade hunter said:Tim isn't top 15.I can name 15 fighters that are better. :) "" @Silver2467 said:I would say possibly top 15 but not top 10. He is an excellent combatant, but he has work to do before he rises through the ranks that far. "" Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "Good analysis mate, Tim has become a top fight, he's in the top 15 fighter in DC maybe even the top ten but DD is one of marvels top Martial artist and is in the same league as Wolverine and Iron fist so he should win this fight. "
" @Silver2467 said:No, you're correct that he couldn't defeat Cassandra. She's at least as skilled as Shiva, making her the greatest martial artist on New Earth, followed closely by Shiva, Dragon, Tiger, and BatMan. Tim could defeat her, but he'd need prep." @velle37 said:I think this was when Deathstroke drugged her since he couldn't have Rose. Used her, Tim came to stop her they fought, David gave her a gun to kill him with, the light went out, came back on, and the other ninjas were dead and Cain was gone. This cultivated suspicion on Cassie about killing the ninjas, later found out to be David's doing, he snapped their necks and left. I don't see Tim taking Cassie in a straight fight. Even drugged he should lose horribly, but eh............ "" @Silver2467 said:I don't remember all of the circumstances. It has been a long while since I've looked at that issue. Sorry. "" @velle37 said:She was drugged at the time right? Then there was the gun situation, the lights go off, come back on, and ninjas are dead...... That the right one? I need to find scans of this....... "" @Son_of_Magnus said:I don't have scans, but as Robin, he was trying to stop Cassandra from killing her father, David Cain. ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
" @velle37 said:" @Son_of_Magnus said:No scanner sorry but it is issue 151 of Robin he nearly takes her out due to readiness but is badly beaten from a previous fight with LOA members and the battlefield they are on is rigged with explosives set up by Cass ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
So Tim was battle worn from previous fights but almost beats her because of "readiness?" But she had the field rigged with explosives so this foils his plans?
I could name 15." @Vance Astro said:
" @Silver2467 said:In the DC universe? go for it mate. "" @blade hunter said:Tim isn't top 15.I can name 15 fighters that are better. :) "" @Silver2467 said:I would say possibly top 15 but not top 10. He is an excellent combatant, but he has work to do before he rises through the ranks that far. "" Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "Good analysis mate, Tim has become a top fight, he's in the top 15 fighter in DC maybe even the top ten but DD is one of marvels top Martial artist and is in the same league as Wolverine and Iron fist so he should win this fight. "
1. Cassandra Cain
2. Lady Shiva
3. Richard Dragon
4. Bronze Tiger
5. BatMan
6. Sensei
7. Deathstroke
8. Black Canary
9. David Cain
10. Connor Hawke
11. Constantine Drakon
12. Ra's al Ghul
13. Dick Grayson
14. Jason Todd
15. Talia al Ghul
" @Son_of_Magnus said:That and his underestimating her mental state and her manipulation of him" @velle37 said:So Tim was battle worn from previous fights but almost beats her because of "readiness?" But she had the field rigged with explosives so this foils his plans? "" @Son_of_Magnus said:No scanner sorry but it is issue 151 of Robin he nearly takes her out due to readiness but is badly beaten from a previous fight with LOA members and the battlefield they are on is rigged with explosives set up by Cass ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
" @blade hunter said:Sensei should be in the top ten but i dont think Jason is better that Tim in a straight H2H fight and at the moment its a close call between Tim and Dick." @Vance Astro said:I could name 15. 1. Cassandra Cain 2. Lady Shiva 3. Richard Dragon 4. Bronze Tiger 5. BatMan 6. Black Canary 7. Connor Hawke 8. Deathstroke 9. Constantine Drakon 10. David Cain 11. Ra's al Ghul 12. Dick Grayson 13. Jason Todd 14. Sensei 15. Talia al Ghul "" @Silver2467 said:In the DC universe? go for it mate. "" @blade hunter said:Tim isn't top 15.I can name 15 fighters that are better. :) "" @Silver2467 said:I would say possibly top 15 but not top 10. He is an excellent combatant, but he has work to do before he rises through the ranks that far. "" Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "Good analysis mate, Tim has become a top fight, he's in the top 15 fighter in DC maybe even the top ten but DD is one of marvels top Martial artist and is in the same league as Wolverine and Iron fist so he should win this fight. "
DD.
" @blade hunter: I edited it. Look again. Although, I'm not entirely sure I agree that Dick is only equal to Tim, and Jason is debatable. "If you look at the Tim and Jason fights Tim would be winning but Jason always used under handed tatics ( in their first fight Jason threw dirt in Tim's eyes just so he could get the upper hand)
" @blade hunter said:" @Vance Astro said:I could name 15. 1. Cassandra Cain 2. Lady Shiva 3. Richard Dragon 4. Bronze Tiger 5. BatMan 6. Black Canary 7. Connor Hawke 8. Deathstroke 9. Constantine Drakon 10. David Cain 11. Ra's al Ghul 12. Dick Grayson 13. Jason Todd 14. Sensei 15. Talia al Ghul "" @Silver2467 said:In the DC universe? go for it mate. "" @blade hunter said:Tim isn't top 15.I can name 15 fighters that are better. :) "" @Silver2467 said:I would say possibly top 15 but not top 10. He is an excellent combatant, but he has work to do before he rises through the ranks that far. "" Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "Good analysis mate, Tim has become a top fight, he's in the top 15 fighter in DC maybe even the top ten but DD is one of marvels top Martial artist and is in the same league as Wolverine and Iron fist so he should win this fight. "
16 Silver Monkey
17 Shrike
18 I-ching
19 Sensei (when he was alive)
20 O-sensei (when he was alive)
21 David Cain
22 White Canary
23 Natas
24 Onyx
25 Ravan
26 Wildcat
27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well)
28 KGBeast (he's enhanced)
29 Master Kirigi
30 Azrael (enhanced)
31 Judomaster
32 Bane
"BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet."Has Bruce said this about every Robin? Cause he said that about Dick too.
Tim isn't top 15.I can name 15 fighters that are better. :) "In the DC universe? go for it mate. "
1.Bruce Wayne
2.Diana Prince
3.Dinah Lance
4.Cassandra Cain
5.Sandra Wu-San
6.Conner Hawke
7.Benjamin Turner
8.Jade Ngyuen
9.Richard Dragon
10.Constantine Drakon
11.Val Arrmor
12.Slade Wilson
13.The O-Sensei
14.Rose Wilson
15.Artemis
" @Silver2467 said:"BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet."Has Bruce said this about every Robin? Cause he said that about Dick too. "
Bruce has said that Nightwing will surpass him in fighting ability, and that Tim has the potential to be a better detective, but not necessarily surpass him outright.
I could name 15. 1. Cassandra Cain 2. Lady Shiva 3. Richard Dragon 4. Bronze Tiger 5. BatMan 6. Black Canary 7. Connor Hawke 8. Deathstroke 9. Constantine Drakon 10. David Cain 11. Ra's al Ghul 12. Dick Grayson 13. Jason Todd 14. Sensei 15. Talia al Ghul "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "
I don't think David Cain,Talia Al Ghul,or Wildcat are more skilled than Tim.Azreal either.
" @velle37 said:" @Son_of_Magnus said:That and his underestimating her mental state and her manipulation of him "" @velle37 said:So Tim was battle worn from previous fights but almost beats her because of "readiness?" But she had the field rigged with explosives so this foils his plans? "" @Son_of_Magnus said:No scanner sorry but it is issue 151 of Robin he nearly takes her out due to readiness but is badly beaten from a previous fight with LOA members and the battlefield they are on is rigged with explosives set up by Cass ""Tim's improvements have mostly been mentally and academic his fighting abilities have not improved since he left The Titans. Though with prep Tim is very dangerous against superior fighter like taking out Shiva twice and Nearly taking down Cassie if not for severe blood loss. But straight fight Tim would lose to Matt "Do you have scans of him fighting Cassie? "
Hmmm.... What "readiness" did he have that alowwed him to nearly beat Cass even battle worn?
I don't agree the majority of the characters listed here.16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "
"@velle37 said:I don't think David Cain,Talia Al Ghul,or Wildcat are more skilled than Tim.Azreal either. "
I could name 15. 1. Cassandra Cain 2. Lady Shiva 3. Richard Dragon 4. Bronze Tiger 5. BatMan 6. Black Canary 7. Connor Hawke 8. Deathstroke 9. Constantine Drakon 10. David Cain 11. Ra's al Ghul 12. Dick Grayson 13. Jason Todd 14. Sensei 15. Talia al Ghul "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "
I think David Cain and Wildcat would beat Tim down. Maybe not Talia though.
" @GreenLantern555 said:Just curious ;-)" @Silver2467 said:Bruce has said that Nightwing will surpass him in fighting ability, and that Tim has the potential to be a better detective, but not necessarily surpass him outright. ""BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet."Has Bruce said this about every Robin? Cause he said that about Dick too. "
" @Vance Astro said:I think David Cain is mediocre but then again i've only seen him in the Batgirl series..Cassandra beat the f#ck outta him."@velle37 said:I think David Cain and Wildcat would beat Tim down. Maybe not Talia though. "I don't think David Cain,Talia Al Ghul,or Wildcat are more skilled than Tim.Azreal either. "
I could name 15. 1. Cassandra Cain 2. Lady Shiva 3. Richard Dragon 4. Bronze Tiger 5. BatMan 6. Black Canary 7. Connor Hawke 8. Deathstroke 9. Constantine Drakon 10. David Cain 11. Ra's al Ghul 12. Dick Grayson 13. Jason Todd 14. Sensei 15. Talia al Ghul "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "
" @velle37 said:16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "I don't agree the majority of the characters listed her. "
Which ones?
" @velle37 said:" @Vance Astro said:I think David Cain is mediocre but then again i've only seen him in the Batgirl series..Cassandra beat the f#ck outta him. ""@velle37 said:I think David Cain and Wildcat would beat Tim down. Maybe not Talia though. "I don't think David Cain,Talia Al Ghul,or Wildcat are more skilled than Tim.Azreal either. "
I could name 15. 1. Cassandra Cain 2. Lady Shiva 3. Richard Dragon 4. Bronze Tiger 5. BatMan 6. Black Canary 7. Connor Hawke 8. Deathstroke 9. Constantine Drakon 10. David Cain 11. Ra's al Ghul 12. Dick Grayson 13. Jason Todd 14. Sensei 15. Talia al Ghul "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "
Batman beat him, Cassandra beat him, but he was supposedly the world's best assassin. He supposedly stalemated deathstroke fighting for hours with no winner. But i heard from somebody that this was later a lie told by a drunk guy. i read the comic about it then wondered at the inconsistency, because i see cain and DS figthing then i see Cass beating David, then i see DS "toying" with Cass. Bats beat down David, and has one shotted DS, but not really beaten him in a straight fight. It's weird.
And i don't see Tim beating Wildcat.
" @Silver2467 said:Azrael, even enhanced, is still lacking in fighting skills when compared with most of the BatMan family. Onyx I disagree with. KGBeast is a wimp. Master Kirigi is questionable. Shrike. Ravan. A few of the others are debatable as well." @velle37 said:Which ones? "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "I don't agree the majority of the characters listed her. "
" @velle37 said:" @Silver2467 said:Azrael, even enhanced, is still lacking in fighting skills when compared with most of the BatMan family. Onyx I disagree with. KGBeast is a wimp. Master Kirigi is questionable. Shrike. Ravan. A few of the others are debatable as well. "" @velle37 said:Which ones? "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "I don't agree the majority of the characters listed her. "
Shrike beat Tim and Cass had to save him. Ravan has given Batman trouble. Onyx has skills that Cass doesn't as both have sparred and she gave Cassandra a few pointers. She was one of the best in the LOA, until she quit and became a vigilante. Master Kirigi i think wouold beat Tim. Who are the others?
Though I agree that Azrael and KGBeast without enhancements would lose.
And i don't see Tim beating Wildcat. "If Tim can't beat Ted..it's not because he's more skilled.
" @velle37 said:Tim beat KG beast when he started as Robin and Tim would wipe the floor with most people on that list." @Silver2467 said:Azrael, even enhanced, is still lacking in fighting skills when compared with most of the BatMan family. Onyx I disagree with. KGBeast is a wimp. Master Kirigi is questionable. Shrike. Ravan. A few of the others are debatable as well. "" @velle37 said:Which ones? "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "I don't agree the majority of the characters listed her. "
Shrike beat Tim and Cass had to save him. Ravan has given Batman trouble. Onyx has skills that Cass doesn't as both have sparred and she gave Cassandra a few pointers. She was one of the best in the LOA, until she quit and became a vigilante. Master Kirigi i think wouold beat Tim. Who are the others? Though I agree that Azrael and KGBeast without enhancements would lose. "Shrike doesn't have enough showings to say he's above Tim, especially after his recent showings as Red Robin. Onyx is not as skilled Cassandra. Black Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean she's more skilled.
By the way, I already listed Deathstroke and Sensei in my list. That was somewhat redundant.
" @Silver2467 said:" @velle37 said:Tim beat KG beast when he started as Robin and Tim would wipe the floor with most people on that list. "" @Silver2467 said:Azrael, even enhanced, is still lacking in fighting skills when compared with most of the BatMan family. Onyx I disagree with. KGBeast is a wimp. Master Kirigi is questionable. Shrike. Ravan. A few of the others are debatable as well. "" @velle37 said:Which ones? "16 Silver Monkey 17 Shrike18 I-ching19 Sensei (when he was alive)20 O-sensei (when he was alive)21 David Cain22 White Canary23 Natas24 Onyx25 Ravan26 Wildcat27 Deathstroke (he's enhanced, but MA as well) 28 KGBeast (he's enhanced) 29 Master Kirigi30 Azrael (enhanced) 31 Judomaster 32 Bane "I don't agree the majority of the characters listed her. "
I've never seen Tim fight KGBeast, but if that happened i'll concede. I know Batman had trouble with him, and eventually NW beat him (or at least threw him across the room).
Do you have scans?
" @velle37 said:Shrike beat Tim and Cass had to save him. Ravan has given Batman trouble. Onyx has skills that Cass doesn't as both have sparred and she gave Cassandra a few pointers. She was one of the best in the LOA, until she quit and became a vigilante. Master Kirigi i think wouold beat Tim. Who are the others? Though I agree that Azrael and KGBeast without enhancements would lose. "Shrike doesn't have enough showings to say he's above Tim, especially after his recent showings as Red Robin. Onyx is not as skilled Cassandra. Black Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean she's more skilled. By the way, I already listed Deathstroke and Sensei in my list. That was somewhat redundant. "
I'm not the one who put Black Canary up, and you said you changed you list or whatever happened but i didn't meane to have DS and Sensei up. I apologize for offending you.
And in Batgirl's series Shrike defeated TIm, Cassandra came and saved him.
" @Silver2467 said:I wasn't offended. I didn't mean for it to come across that way. My point with mentioning Canary was that you mentioned that Onyx has sparred with Cassandra. That doesn't prove very much. Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean her skills are comparable to Wonder Woman's. Shrike defeated Tim before his showings as Red Robin. The validity of that in comparison with his current skills is questionable given his recent showings." @velle37 said:Shrike beat Tim and Cass had to save him. Ravan has given Batman trouble. Onyx has skills that Cass doesn't as both have sparred and she gave Cassandra a few pointers. She was one of the best in the LOA, until she quit and became a vigilante. Master Kirigi i think wouold beat Tim. Who are the others? Though I agree that Azrael and KGBeast without enhancements would lose. "Shrike doesn't have enough showings to say he's above Tim, especially after his recent showings as Red Robin. Onyx is not as skilled Cassandra. Black Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean she's more skilled. By the way, I already listed Deathstroke and Sensei in my list. That was somewhat redundant. "
I'm not the one who put Black Canary up, and you said you changed you list or whatever happened but i didn't meane to have DS and Sensei up. I apologize for offending you.
And in Batgirl's series Shrike defeated TIm, Cassandra came and saved him. "
" @velle37 said:" @Silver2467 said:I wasn't offended. I didn't mean for it to come across that way. My point with mentioning Canary was that you mentioned that Onyx has sparred with Cassandra. That doesn't prove very much. Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean her skills are comparable to Wonder Woman's. Shrike defeated Tim before his showings as Red Robin. The validity of that in comparison with his current skills is questionable given his recent showings. "" @velle37 said:Shrike beat Tim and Cass had to save him. Ravan has given Batman trouble. Onyx has skills that Cass doesn't as both have sparred and she gave Cassandra a few pointers. She was one of the best in the LOA, until she quit and became a vigilante. Master Kirigi i think wouold beat Tim. Who are the others? Though I agree that Azrael and KGBeast without enhancements would lose. "Shrike doesn't have enough showings to say he's above Tim, especially after his recent showings as Red Robin. Onyx is not as skilled Cassandra. Black Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean she's more skilled. By the way, I already listed Deathstroke and Sensei in my list. That was somewhat redundant. "
I'm not the one who put Black Canary up, and you said you changed you list or whatever happened but i didn't meane to have DS and Sensei up. I apologize for offending you.
And in Batgirl's series Shrike defeated TIm, Cassandra came and saved him. "
I see your point.
BTW the robin/Shrike/Batgirl fight was in Robin and Batgirl: Fresh Blood. It was more of a rescue, than a save, but the fight made it clear Shrike was above him.
But do you have scans of the trip the Bat-family took to train?
" Daredevil wins. Tim has grown to be one of the most intelligent, determined, and skilled members of the BatMan family. BatMan has stated that Tim will be greater than him, but Tim is not there yet. He's demonstrated high degrees of skill as Red Robin. He's proven willing to do what he believes necessary. But he still has not yet displayed the skill necessary to defeat Daredevil. Daredevil is the more skilled martial artist, has greater physical attributes, has superhuman senses, and is the superior acrobat. Of the two, I would say that Tim is more intelligent. If he had prep for this battle, he could defeat Daredevil. He's downed Lady Shiva by preparing ahead of time for an attack she planned on him. However, Tim has no prep in this instance. Tim has some decent equipment. His retractable bo staff could aid him in a fight against Daredevil with his billy clubs, and Tim could put up a good fight. But he can't win this. Daredevil's simply more skilled than he is and has greater reaction time. Tim is brilliant, but Daredevil simply supersedes him. Daredevil should win this. "This
" @Silver2467 said:No, but there have been several instances. There are comics about BatMan's training before returning to Gotham after 12 years of travel; Dick's training under BatMan; Jason's training under BatMan; Tim's training under BatMan; Tim's training under Shiva; Bruce's training with Shiva, Oracle's training under Richard Dragon; Bruce, Dick, and Tim traveling before One Year Later; and so on. There are a number of them training." @velle37 said:I see your point. BTW the robin/Shrike/Batgirl fight was in Robin and Batgirl: Fresh Blood. It was more of a rescue, than a save, but the fight made it clear Shrike was above him. But do you have scans of the trip the Bat-family took to train? "" @Silver2467 said:I wasn't offended. I didn't mean for it to come across that way. My point with mentioning Canary was that you mentioned that Onyx has sparred with Cassandra. That doesn't prove very much. Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean her skills are comparable to Wonder Woman's. Shrike defeated Tim before his showings as Red Robin. The validity of that in comparison with his current skills is questionable given his recent showings. "" @velle37 said:Shrike beat Tim and Cass had to save him. Ravan has given Batman trouble. Onyx has skills that Cass doesn't as both have sparred and she gave Cassandra a few pointers. She was one of the best in the LOA, until she quit and became a vigilante. Master Kirigi i think wouold beat Tim. Who are the others? Though I agree that Azrael and KGBeast without enhancements would lose. "Shrike doesn't have enough showings to say he's above Tim, especially after his recent showings as Red Robin. Onyx is not as skilled Cassandra. Black Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean she's more skilled. By the way, I already listed Deathstroke and Sensei in my list. That was somewhat redundant. "
I'm not the one who put Black Canary up, and you said you changed you list or whatever happened but i didn't meane to have DS and Sensei up. I apologize for offending you.
And in Batgirl's series Shrike defeated TIm, Cassandra came and saved him. "
" Does anyone have scans or character hearsay about how good Daredevil is? Any good showings? "He's held his own against a number of very skilled fighters, like Wolverine, Iron Fist, Echo, Elektra, and others. He defeated Captain America once, but that fight had circumstance surrounding it in Daredevil's favor. Besides, Cap has defeated Daredevil at least one other time anyway. He's still very skilled though.
" @velle37 said:" Does anyone have scans or character hearsay about how good Daredevil is? Any good showings? "He's held his own against a number of very skilled fighters, like Wolverine, Iron Fist, Echo, Elektra, and others. He defeated Captain America once, but that fight had circumstance surrounding it in Daredevil's favor. Besides, Cap has defeated Daredevil at least one other time anyway. He's still very skilled though. "
I see. What has allowed him to beat Iron Fist or Wolverine?
@Silver2467 said:
" @velle37 said:" @Silver2467 said:No, but there have been several instances. There are comics about BatMan's training before returning to Gotham after 12 years of travel; Dick's training under BatMan; Jason's training under BatMan; Tim's training under BatMan; Tim's training under Shiva; Bruce's training with Shiva, Oracle's training under Richard Dragon; Bruce, Dick, and Tim traveling before One Year Later; and so on. There are a number of them training. "" @velle37 said:I see your point. BTW the robin/Shrike/Batgirl fight was in Robin and Batgirl: Fresh Blood. It was more of a rescue, than a save, but the fight made it clear Shrike was above him. But do you have scans of the trip the Bat-family took to train? "" @Silver2467 said:I wasn't offended. I didn't mean for it to come across that way. My point with mentioning Canary was that you mentioned that Onyx has sparred with Cassandra. That doesn't prove very much. Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean her skills are comparable to Wonder Woman's. Shrike defeated Tim before his showings as Red Robin. The validity of that in comparison with his current skills is questionable given his recent showings. "" @velle37 said:Shrike beat Tim and Cass had to save him. Ravan has given Batman trouble. Onyx has skills that Cass doesn't as both have sparred and she gave Cassandra a few pointers. She was one of the best in the LOA, until she quit and became a vigilante. Master Kirigi i think wouold beat Tim. Who are the others? Though I agree that Azrael and KGBeast without enhancements would lose. "Shrike doesn't have enough showings to say he's above Tim, especially after his recent showings as Red Robin. Onyx is not as skilled Cassandra. Black Canary has sparred with Wonder Woman, but that doesn't mean she's more skilled. By the way, I already listed Deathstroke and Sensei in my list. That was somewhat redundant. "
I'm not the one who put Black Canary up, and you said you changed you list or whatever happened but i didn't meane to have DS and Sensei up. I apologize for offending you.
And in Batgirl's series Shrike defeated TIm, Cassandra came and saved him. "
I know. I've seen those. I've just heard about a trip Bruce, Tim and Dick went on, that was brutal and increased their skills, but never seen it. Tis all.
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