Red Hood Vs. Catman

To my knowledge this hasn't been done, so I'm doing it to see who wins. The fallen son of the Batman family versus Catwoman's least favorite person in the world. Both are their pre-New 52 versions with standard gear. Fight takes place in the African Savannah cleared of all animals. Who wins?

Versus

Bump

What are some of Red Hood's feats? Is he a good Hand to Hand combatant? Is he even Peak human?

Catman is one hell of a fighter. His methods are crazy but they get the job done. He fought Bronze Tiger to such an incredible standstill that both men passed out at the same time due to blood loss and exhaustion. He's also very agile, fast and strong for a human. He's given hell to Batman, surprising Bruce with his skill.

Red Hood owned Lady Shiva. Your argument? Is invalid!

Pre-reboot, man.

Anyway, I'll say Catman.

So, why doesn't jungle boy get shot? As skilled as he is....Todd isn't bad at all and technically should be more skilled based on his fight with Nightwing.

I've never followed the rules, and I'm not going to start now!

I'll back Thomas Blake on this one, I love me some Catman & he has some pretty lovely H2H skills.

Well I'll take jason here. He had that kris blade(the curved/jagged knife), dual pistols, and an assortment of typical bat-gadgets, plus body armor. Catman has his claws and a lesser assortment of gadgets, though IIRC I think his cape might have some sort of healing capability?

They're probably about equal in skill and agility, Blake prob has edge in strength whereas Jason is prob faster. I see the guns being the difference, Jason could play keep away long enough to plug Blake a few times, then close in and finish the job. They're both pretty ruthless, and their sh**talking would make for an entertaining fight. I like Blake, especially in secret six, but the combination of bat-training, LOA training, dying, a swim in a Lazarus pit, and not having a yellow/orange cat-themed batsuit, I gotta side with Jason.

Jason gets my vote.

Catman once let himself go. And then by training with some lions, and I'm suppose to believe he's able to compete with a Top Tier DC Marital Artist cause of his "no style"? BT may not have so many feats himself but the ones present at least put him in the top.

He gave Batman a good fight(He was holding back, even chatting), but so has Jason Todd. Jason Todd also has given Nightwing a good fight.

Jason has been able to give Batman and Nightwing good fights. And wreck Tim Drake. Also, he gave a good swordfight with Ollie and has actual formal training.

The only noteworthy thing Catman has done that isn't dubious is wrecking Tim Drake(When Tim put Catman as a large threat along with Anti-Monitor and Doomsday.........) and Cheshire(At the time, its when she isn't as good as she was in the 80s.....he was dodging all her attacks and out of the blue, wanted to sleep with him when he landed a kick to her).

I saw that. PIS. No way 6 weeks of training with Shiva(#1 Martial Artist) equals you can one-shot her when she has walked circles over Nightwing twice(Had broken ribs but still, he was gonna lose anyway) and Batman prior to fighting him. Also this is the same series that has him spawn random magic swords. It's kinda hard for me to take whatever he does in that arc as consistent when he's doing that and Ra's Al Ghul is a Doctor Strange look-a-like. The Current Arc has gotten me raising eyebrows. And I've been following this book and character. Up until now, there was nothing suggesting whatsoever he could hold a candle to Lady Shiva. Damian has manage to best him once in Batman and Robin.

Plus, this is Pre-52. Not New 52. .-.

@jayaaerow: Yeah I don't really buy the Bronze Tiger/Catman fight either. Gail Simone is a great writer but has the bad tendency of overpowering characters she likes. A sort of fanboy writer. Or fangirl as the case may be.

Anyways, I give it to Jason in a close fight. All of Blake's best feats are from Secret Six, which is a good series but not as far as respecting character's power levels goes. Red Hood and Catman have both wrecked Tim Drake but Catman's showing was again, in a story that compared him to the ANTI-MONITOR and Jason also has other showings besides.

@shroudofsorrow said:

I know. I remember in Batgirl, which she currently writes, she had Batgirl surprise Nightwing and beat him up. Problem was She has trouble by some Former CIA agent(IRC) turn villain name Mirror and almost got her butt beat by Knightfall, who had only took Karate Classes. And Nightwing has fought William Cobb, Letavian, Saiko, Shiva, etc. He ain't the best in N52 but has surely took more skilled opponents then Batgirl, but just got beat there. And the worst part was....their fight made no sense. It was uneeded, unecessary, and really just made Batgirl look good. That's the only purpose it served. There was something else to it it but that didn't equate to beating someone up when he's just asking "Do you need help?" and then she regrets it. Pointless. I've heard of her doing things like that and is aware. She' still kinda does it every now and then.

I LOLed at that. So hard. Anti-Monitor? Doomsday? Catman is as big of a threat as them? Wow! For some guy who trained with lions, RR held him in the highest regard. Even though he's mid-tier at best. I wonder what the author thought when he wrote that. Did he mean that as a exaggeration meaning TD knew he's just outclassed or did TD really consider him that big of a threat?

The varying power levels mentioned above is the reason ABC logic isn't accepted here. Comic writers will normalize characters all the time, making them stronger or weaker relative to their opponent to make better fights.

As for the topic I think Jason Todd has it. Not because of hand-to-hand or marksmanship skills, but because of his style. He likes to deck himself out with dirty tricks, booby traps and explosives to end fights quickly. It's one of the things I like about his character that I wish the writers would play up more.

@jayaaerow: You have a hard problem beliving Blake can hold his own against top fighters, but we all are suppose to belive that a guy raised in prison, taught himself martial arts from reading books while in solitary confinement? Its the same thing.

Also from the panels of his fights with Bruce and Tiger it looks like he mimics animals.

Charging headfirst like a Rhino.

The Jagular bite similar to big cats.

No diffrent then any animal style kung fu.

I go with Todd though. Better training, longer range, and just as ruthless.

Also BT and Bats were taken by surprise, that's all. Dude had a rep of being a loser remember. First time Bruce underestimated someone, which was the only thing off about the fight

@guardiandevil83 said:

I kinda do. But what I think isn't important. If there's feats saying he can, well who cares what I think? I'll just think that's crazy. And I'm not the only one, apparently. I still have to knowledge that feat, though. Sometimes, it's just personal opinion that's not my cup of tea. For some, it's a opinion that appeared persistently. Like this case. Just want to keep that in mind.

Bane is a bit different. I agree on that insert. That's just as crazy, too! But for that, he has a heck a lot of more feats to back him up by. Another time where what I think doesn't matter.

The "No Style" thing was some insert from a user talking about that fight I saw in another thread ages ago. I didn't really know the context at all back then. Also, had something to do with a page he saw. :/ So I don't really know about that. I could be wrong about that insert.

I know the context of the fights,though. Thanks for reiterating, anyway. Bruce has underestimated before, too. I remember him doing that with Lady Shiva. Then she started showing she was a threat. It took Jason punking her behind the head for Batman to get an opening to beat her.

@jayaaerow: Sorry if I seemed like a ass, I love both dudes equally. Just seems like Blake gets a lot of flak. And thanks for the info with Shiva. I had always hopped she was better.

@jayaaerow: Yeah and the really sad thing is she's a very good writer in many respects but that's the one thing she just cannot do well. She can usually make the fights entertaining though.

@irs: ABC logic is allowed to a degree, and to an extent is necessary. You just can't overrely on it. And as for writers overpowering characters, that's more PIS/Fanboyism than ABC logic being bad.

Anyway, still going for Red Hood. No one backing Catman's really put forth a terribly strong argument in his favor.

I agree. I'd still like to see some Catman feats, though.

@retconcrisis: The main one that I'm aware of is doing well against Tim Drake except Jason has done that too plus more so...

@guardiandevil83 said:

Understood. The problem with his character is usage. He's use rarely. No one knows him. And was known as a loser before. Kinda hard shaking off that as it is. In universe and out, too. If he was use more often and shown to be consistently competent, It would help the character tremendously.

Yeah. But still. If someone is writing for any other character. No matter how much of a favorite they are, they should still be written within comic book reason. The New 52 makes it very apparent Writers wants to do whatever they want for the sake of telling a story. It's partially why the Timeline is messed up and confusing. Just because I like Stargirl more then Superman doesn't mean I should write a panel where she Knocks him out to prove she's a capable fighter. Instead, I'd pair her up with a villain either in her league or one notch above her and show her qualities she has in battle. Superman is loved too and a writer should pay respects to his fans by not giving him an embarrassing moment of that caliber.

Of course. Well Said. You cannot debate without some degree of "ABC Logic". Plus the ABC Logic is being applied between Street Level Characters only. Human Street Level Characters. I could say just because Catman put down a giant gorrilla that he wins at JT. But it doesn't work that way. He didn't overcome it by being better in physical stats.. He overcame it with some skill and tactician ability. That's how Batman beats his opponents. He uses his Martial Art Skills, his genius intellect, tactician ability, Gadgetry, and Peak Human capabilities to get his opponents.