Venom should defeat Red Hood easily, despite recently jobbing to Taskmaster.
It's not jobbing when a character is consistently been portrayed as being inefficient in combat. If not flat out incompetent. After a dozen underwhelming encounters, you'd expect Flash and his supporters would have run out of excuses by now, but I guess not.
Right. Flash is ineffective in combat...
I guess him one-shotting Captain America, overpowering Spider-man while holding back for most of the fight, easily defeating Jack-O-Lantern, and trading blows with Red Hulk are all just times he got lucky.
Get serious...
Yes, he is.
One-shooting Cap is a good, but you know you have issues when Flash beating a character that he should, by rights, completely demolish, suddenly becomes your standout feat. Same with Spider-Man. You mention Venom holding back, which simply isn't true. He needed to unleash in order to get the upper hand before he stopped himself, before that Spider-Man was putting the hurt on him. You also fail to mention that out of concern for Betty, Spider-Man was by no means thinking clearly and was far more brutal than usual, not utilizing speed or agility, not to mention his recently acquired skills. And again, you mention "overpowering" Spider-Man as if it's something to applaud. Venom is more powerful than Spider-Man, how is overpowering him with great difficulty a feat when a previous host was stomping Spider-Man and had him either begging for mercy or in desparate need of endless plot devices to even manage to inflict harm to him, let alone defeat him, an issue he simply did not have against Flash. And "easily" defeating Jack? Jack, whose only feats are against Flash in the first place? Who has given Flash a run for his money twice before that? He traded blows with Rulk? What? You mean the same fight where Flash himself said he has 0 chance against any Hulk, regardless of color? A fight in which Flash hit Rulk a grand total of... one time? Same fight, right? You also conveniently forgot his excellent showings against Kraven, or the Spider King, or the Fly, or Hobgoblin, or the Descendants.
Come back at me when you have a real case and you cease using selective showings. Or selective memory, for that matter.
I guess him one-shotting Captain America, overpowering Spider-man while holding back for most of the fight, easily defeating Jack-O-Lantern, and trading blows with Red Hulk are all just times he got lucky.
Get serious...
Yes, he is.
One-shooting Cap is a good, but you know you have issues when Flash beating a character that he should, by rights, completely demolish, suddenly becomes your standout feat. Same with Spider-Man. You mention Venom holding back, which simply isn't true. He needed to unleash in order to get the upper hand before he stopped himself, before that Spider-Man was putting the hurt on him. You also fail to mention that out of concern for Betty, Spider-Man was by no means thinking clearly and was far more brutal than usual, not utilizing speed or agility, not to mention his recently acquired skills. And again, you mention "overpowering" Spider-Man as if it's something to applaud. Venom is more powerful than Spider-Man, how is overpowering him with great difficulty a feat when a previous host was stomping Spider-Man and had him either begging for mercy or in desparate need of endless plot devices to even manage to inflict harm to him, let alone defeat him, an issue he simply did not have against Flash. And "easily" defeating Jack? Jack, whose only feats are against Flash in the first place? Who has given Flash a run for his money twice before that? He traded blows with Rulk? What? You mean the same fight where Flash himself said he has 0 chance against any Hulk, regardless of color? A fight in which Flash hit Rulk a grand total of... one time? Same fight, right? You also conveniently forgot his excellent showings against Kraven, or the Spider King, or the Fly, or Hobgoblin, or the Descendants. Come back at me when you have a real case and you cease using selective showings. Or selective memory, for that matter.
Same with Spider-Man. You mention Venom holding back, which simply isn't true. He needed to unleash in order to get the upper hand before he stopped himself, before that Spider-Man was putting the hurt on him. You also fail to mention that out of concern for Betty, Spider-Man was by no means thinking clearly and was far more brutal than usual, not utilizing speed or agility, not to mention his recently acquired skills. And again, you mention "overpowering" Spider-Man as if it's something to applaud. Venom is more powerful than Spider-Man, how is overpowering him with great difficulty a feat when a previous host was stomping Spider-Man and had him either begging for mercy or in desparate need of endless plot devices to even manage to inflict harm to him, let alone defeat him, an issue he simply did not have against Flash.
Venom was indeed holding back on Spider-man. Venom was trying to keep himself in check and regain control while Spidey was hammering away at him and still failed to KO him. When Venom punched him through a building, Spidey was temporarly KOed and if Venom kept up the attack then Parker would have been dead, but instead Venom went for the pills.
If Venom actually went all out, Spidey would have been killed.
One-shooting Cap is a good,
At least we agree on something.
And "easily" defeating Jack? Jack, whose only feats are against Flash in the first place? Who has given Flash a run for his money twice before that?
Recently in Savage Six, Venom defeated Jack without much difficulty and threw him into a vat of chemicals.
And I'd hardly call him featless, he killed every other version of Jack-O-Lantern until he was the only one, had a powerful healing factor (survived a grenade in his mouth going off and survived a bullet to the head).
He traded blows with Rulk? What? You mean the same fight where Flash himself said he has 0 chance against any Hulk, regardless of color?
It doesn't matter what he thought. The fact that he tanked his blows and was able to hurt him and make him bleed is extremely impressive.
You also conveniently forgot his excellent showings against Kraven
Was weakened by poison, while fighting him. He also seemed to have the upperhand until the bts in the cave interrupted the fight. NEXT!
the Spider King
Flash whooped his ass twice. NEXT!
or the Fly
Eugene beat him their first fight, and severely beat and tortured him the second time. NEXT!
or Hobgoblin,
Flash KOed him with a motorcycle. I'm starting to sense a trend. NEXT!
Venom was indeed holding back on Spider-man. Venom was trying to keep himself in check and regain control while Spidey was hammering away at him and still failed to KO him. When Venom punched him through a building, Spidey was temporarly KOed and if Venom kept up the attack then Parker would have been dead, but instead Venom went for the pills.
If Venom actually went all out, Spidey would have been killed.
Flash says "No more Spider-Man" and starts succumbing to the symbiote's influence before getting the upper hand. So, no, no holding back anymore at that point in the fight.
Venom did go all out when he lost control. Saying Spider-Man would have been killed is speculative and unsubstantiated on your part.
Recently in Savage Six, Venom defeated Jack without much difficulty and threw him into a vat of chemicals.
And I'd hardly call him featless, he killed every other version of Jack-O-Lantern until he was the only one, had a powerful healing factor (survived a grenade in his mouth going off and survived a bullet to the head).
You isolate one showing where Flash defeats Jack and omit another three fights where he either couldn't or didn't perform at the same level and for which you have no explanation.
Which he did off panel. And as I stated, his only feats, including the one you named, are against Flash.
It doesn't matter what he thought. The fact that he tanked his blows and was able to hurt him and make him bleed is extremely impressive.
What blows? They literally threw one punch at one another before stopping. But go ahead and keep on being extremely impressed.
Was weakened by poison, while fighting him. He also seemed to have the upperhand until the bts in the cave interrupted the fight. NEXT!
Uh-huh. And who do you propose poisoned him? Maria Callas? He "seemed to have the upper hand?" By being on his knees with Kraven ready to finish him off after deeing him unworthy?
Flash whooped his ass twice. NEXT!
Outcome means nothing. The means are everything. I see you have nothing to comment on the latter.
Eugene beat him their first fight, and severely beat and tortured him the second time. NEXT!
Same as above.
Flash KOed him with a motorcycle. I'm starting to sense a trend. NEXT!
After being at his knees on top of the train until the Fly interrupted the fight.
I am also starting to sense a trend. You focus solely on the outcome of the fight with no regards as to the context, while omitting crucial details. Just don't pretend that him narrowly defeating or getting embarrassed by any of the afore mentioned lackluster characters is something to boast about.
Now, if you wish to throw any more invalid feats for me to easily counter, be my guest, but one more use of the utterly pointless and asinine "NEXT" in your following post means end of the discussion. I don't debate impertinent children.
I must disagree with the above mentioned belief that the outcome of the battle means nothing if the battle is questionable. All fights are cercumstantial. Kaine wouldn't have been able to kill the queen if spiderman hadn't been off weakening her. ultimate spiderman wouldn't be dead if he had asked bobby to help him fight goblin instead of johnny. To say venom's victories are meaningless is ridiculous. As it stand I believe in a fight between Jason and agent venom would be very close but ultimately venom would win simply because of his endurance.
I must disagree with the above mentioned belief that the outcome of the battle means nothing if the battle is questionable.
The outcome means nothing in a debate if nothing but the outcome itself is being studied, which was the case. Gross generalizations or unrelated instances do not invalidate the point.
Each fight should be examined separately, dispassionately, and always within the context it occurred in. If certain extraneous factors distort the outcome and enable a character to win a fight he otherwise wouldn't have, then the feat loses impact and is no longer clearly usable. Saying, "X beat Y" without mentioning how that was achieved is meaningless. Sometimes the victory might be clear and straightforward, other times, like in most of the instances referenced for Venom's fights, a series of other factors enabled Venom to "win" or escape with his life. We aren't writing a comic book here, simply examining the facts. It's really not difficult to comprehend.
Obviously you consider yourself one of the Great debaters but you're not. If anyone has fallen from the topic its you. Your attacking another user with big words, in an attempt to sound smart, simply because he likes the character. The debate isn't about if venom is strong its who would win in a fight. All you've done is insult venom because of cercumstanial victories. You've made no mention of Jason that I've noticed. Stop acting like your debating if in reality your just spewing random facts because someone was a fan of venom. Also you can't desperate individual instances and say its not OK that circumstances in this comics letting this character win aren't OK but in another series its is. You must view the series as a whole. An earlier point you made was that the only feat jack performed was against venom. Does that make the battles less valid? Also to discount a current victory because previous battles ended in a loss is in itself invalid. Fights in these comics aren't best two out of three or something foolish like that. By that logic I should completely discount many late victories super heroes had over villains who previously had a victory over the hero. Like I should constantly view vulture as supior to spiderman because of a previous battle in which the vulture beat him
Obviously you consider yourself one of the Great debaters but you're not. If anyone has fallen from the topic its you. Your attacking another user with big words, in an attempt to sound smart, simply because he likes the character. The debate isn't about if venom is strong its who would win in a fight. All you've done is insult venom because of cercumstanial victories. You've made no mention of Jason that I've noticed. Stop acting like your debating if in reality your just spewing random facts because someone was a fan of venom. Also you can't desperate individual instances and say its not OK that circumstances in this comics letting this character win aren't OK but in another series its is. You must view the series as a whole.
You seem to know an awful lot about me, sir. I never once attacked anyone and if you believe I did, you are well within your rights to report me, but you will not, because I did nothing I am not entitled to. I should know. I am not in the habit of apologizing for a use of words that comes naturally to me simply because it does not conform to your standards, either.
If you have something actually constructive to add, I will be happy to oblige. Otherwise, don't engage me again with petty squabbling in a misguided attempt to defend someone else's honor.
What are your standards for constructive you hypocritical child? I came into this because you were intentionally deviating from the focus of this thread. the only thing you've contributed was against venom. Again no mention of Jason was made. the debate isn't about venom individually its about who would win in a fight venom or the red hood. I'm done here. If you were a debater you would be too but this will without a doubt end with you replying once more to have the last word. I wanted you to reply to me but not because to my statements against your attack but against my opinion of who would win. In debating networks you are supposed to stay on topic.you have failed in that category
What are your standards for constructive you hypocritical child?
I do so love irony. You falsely accuse me of attacking others yet your opening statement as well as a significant portion of your previous post is devoted to me and your assumptions of me on a personal level.
The discussion started by a remark regarding Venom's supposed "jobbing" to Taskmaster. Which is not a statement I made but one I was perfectly within my rights to respond to. The current debate spanned from that as far as Venom's overall combat efficiency is concerned, and that is something that can only be measured by the opponents he has faced so far. Is the debate directly linked to Jason Todd? No. Is it linked to one of the traits of one of the character's involved and as such is of importance to it? Yes. You are very welcome to consult a moderator and ask them to ban me for thread derailment, though.
Oh one final note. I gave you a counter point that was simply ignored.
I read through your posts carefully. You gave me nothing I had not already covered, and nothing I was actually discussing in the first place. Merely a hasty and erroneous interpretation of what you thought I was saying.
And that is the very last thing I am going to say on the matter.
@PavtrPrabhaker: @The_Question_: There's a real solid sense of irony here. Pavtr, you're saying The_Question is attacking another user and drawing this matter off-topic, but I see no such thing. The_Question addressed a remark about Venom's fight with Taskmaster, and from there it expanded into a conversation surrounding Flash's effectiveness as Agent Venom. This isn't off-topic. In fact, it's a critical part of the conversation. We can evaluate his performances, weigh the pros and cons, and then do the same for Todd. Based on that, we can declare a winner. There are no rules saying you need to talk about both characters at once. If The_Question starting randomly elaborating on Silver Surfer and there was no connection, then you'd have a point. However, such isn't the case here.
Also, you're saying he/she is attacking venomoushatred, but then you immediately go on to make several (and rather rude) assumptions about this individual.
This petty back-and-forth is only doing what you want to avoid: derailing the thread.
@Shawnbaby: from what I remember Jason carries a so similar arsenal as batman and batman is known to Carrie a sonic emmiter to call bats as a distraction, I could be wrong though
Flash kind of sucks in combat, all things considered. He should beat Todd just due to his durability and stats, but he might be the least effective Venom to date.
THIS IMAGE IS WHAT PEOPLE MEAN WHEN THEY SAY "FAIL"
Least Effective Venom? And this is without bringing up Angelo Fortunato.
Also any Venom beats red hood, due to sheer power.
Usually Venom makes Spidey cry. Spidey made Angelo cry. Nuff
@darktiger: just to be acknowledged Jason was trained by batman to be constantly prepared. I'm unaware of Jason's exact arsenal but it should be similar to that of the regular bat family and they are known to carry some degree of minor sonic weaponry. Mostly to stun.
@darktiger: just to be acknowledged Jason was trained by batman to be constantly prepared. I'm unaware of Jason's exact arsenal but it should be similar to that of the regular bat family and they are known to carry some degree of minor sonic weaponry. Mostly to stun.
yeah if he does I think he has a chance of beating flash
From what I have read I really don't think jason needs a boost. The newest red hood and the outlaws he took out a bunch of cops in a towel. In venom flash was struggling with the black mask faced guy. Crime master or something. I still see this as a relatively even fight.
No, not really. If that was the case, I imagine he wouldn't have had trouble with the likes of Fly, Kraven, Jack O'Lantern, Death Adder, Taskmaster, and more.
joke lighten up venom still wins
Usually jokes are funny, so that must be why I wasn't aware it was one.
What he said.
And Venom loses.
What is it with people automatically thinking Flash is so well trained that he can take on Jason?
What f**king book have they been reading?
I actually think Agent Venom would beat Todd in an amusing fight. Todd's pistols won't do a thang and it's going to come down to close range. Todd has the skill to cut Flash up a bit, but it shouldn't be more than Flash has withstood in the title already. Todd's superior skill and agility means this will be amusing but eventually, I imagine Venom's stats will overcome and he'll take Todd down with one clean connect (a la Captain America style).
I'd say Venom might wins if he vulks out and tears Jason apart. Jason will put up a fight but he'll have to deal with tentacles and Venom trying to eat him. Jason might think up a plan but the Venom symbiote is pretty smart when in full control. Flash might try to shoot him first but Flash isn't that much of a good marksman but he can stab through Jason if he loses control.
Log in to comment