Punisher & Daredevil vs Red Hood & Arsenal

Round 1: 2 days prep, no outside help, morals on, standard weapons and equipment for all.

Round 2: Random encounter, morals off, no outside help, 2 handguns 3 clips for 36 rounds and a knife for RH and Punisher, bow and standard assortment of 36 arrows for Arsenal (no trick arrows) Standard Billy clubs for DD, Standard equipment for all.

Round 3: 3 hours, morals on, no outside help, access to an array of weapons and equipment.

Round 4: Random encounter, morals off, no outside help, standard weapons and equipment

Arsenal is kinda a weak link.

Team2 I think

I say Team 1. With the little that Arsenal could do before getting filled full o' holes, he may be able to do some damage to both of Team 2 before Red Hood finishes them off, It'd be a tough fight, though

@spinnercomix: Punisher would more likely than not kill him immediately since he's faster on the draw.

Plus Daredevil > Redhood.

@speedster101: I feel that Red Hood is better than DD but that's just my MO

Team 2.

@speedster101: punisher doesn't kill heroes. And Jason > Daredevil.

@allstarsuperman: ugh morals LOL... and IIRC he's shot Spiderman and other heros before, but there could be context to that...

And what puts Jason above DD? Like at all...

arsenal is being sold short here. i know theres no prep but the dude is a prep master. either way, team 2 wins

Team 2

Daredevil>Punisher>>Jason Todd> Arsenal

@serrure: Agreed 100%

@speedster101: I'd put Jason above Daredevil cause of his tech. Jason has better training as well. Even in pure skill Jason is on par with Daredevil. He's mastered a pressure point and did it correctly, from only watching Talia al ghul do it wrong a couple times. He later did the same pressure point on an amped Ra's al ghul. He also one shotted Lady Shiva with a pressure point and stated he knew more.

So not only is Jason equally skilled, if not better, he also has tech like grenades, tasers, smoke bombs, etc. His indestructible All-Blades also give him a great advantage.

Punisher has shot Spiderman, but that's cause he's studied his moves. Similar to how Kraven prepared for Spider-Man AFAIK.

@sodamyat said:

@allstarsuperman: they are on par in skill I guess but physicals wise DD is leagues above him. Hes a legitanate ballet timer. Non aim dodging and such. Jason would never land a shot.

And good to know about punisher, would he shoot him in the leg or something to incap him?

@speedster101: Jason's bullet timed as well, even as a child. And no Daredevil is not leagues above Jason physically. Jason has moved this giant rock gate thing with only one hand in BftC. Batman has compared Jason's agility to Nightwing's (world's greatest acrobat), in Hush. And Jason has shrugged off high-speed crashing a space ship and its explosion and he wasn't even scratched.

@allstarsuperman: Perhaps that was aim dodging? Jason isn't a legit bullet timer as far as I know...

@speedster101: nah it was bullet time. Jason has also dodged Mr Freeze's ice, then while falling upside down he lands with one hand, interweaves between machine gun fire from multiple shooters, and returns fire with his other hand all at the same time.

@speedster101: here are some scans.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/144096/4248542-5551775422-batma.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/144096/4248543-0523742837-batma.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/144096/4248567-6378761694-Bmoy..jpg

@allstarsuperman: ok those are bullet timed... but still Jason put up a good fight and lost to Tim Drake

2 things about that

1. Tim looked like hell at the end
2. Tim is majorly underestimated in skill

the point being however is that with Daredevils radar sense and his slight edge in skill he should be able to negate the tech advantage right?

not trolling, but a serious debate here. I think you might be on to something and i may have to apologize

Arsenal really is being under played here. He's not so far out of his league that he isn't going to add some type of factor into this fight, either with tech or aim. He is still the weakest here but not by a too big margin. I think Jason Todd is above anyone here though due to gear and training.

Still...feels like team 2 has a slight edge.

@serrure: What fight with Drake are you referring too? In Teen Titans 29 Jason sneaks into the titans tower and literally beats Tim unconscious. If you're talking battle for the cowl, you have to keep in mind that Jason was crazy as hell from being emotionally wrecked from that tape Bruce gave it. He also jobbed in his fight with Nightwing, sure Nightwing can beat Jason IMHO(with morals on), but Jason only threw 2 punches and an elbow that entire fight. If you're talking about New 52 Teen Titans 16, Jason was holding back, if he wasn't he would have thrown more tech into that fight. He fought Tim equally even while blinded. He only "lost" cause Tim has those wings that can hurt Trigon, and used a cheap shot IIRC.

Now last. And definitely least. If you are referring to their fight in Tims solo. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it's bad writing/PIS. I remember a panel in it where Drake says Jason relies on strength and that Drake is actually more trained. Both of these statements are false. Jason showed ridiculous skill in his first fight with Batman in UtRH. He disarmed Batman of his utility belt, landed tasers on him, and landed a precise cut on Batmans neck, right where the seem for his mask was. Even after Batman says "this is over" Jason steals his mask, reveals he is Jason, then blows up his helmet and uses it as a distraction to escape.

And even at that time Jason had been trained by Batman, the League of Assassins, and various world class mercenaries.

I dont honestly think Jason can shoot Daredevil. Matts reaction is insane. And thats saying something, Jason has shot Damian who has dodged lasers. But I don't think Daredevil is safe from all his other gear, a flashbang, frag grenade, or any loud explosive would hurt Matt's ears a lot. I think the fight with get close, after Jason realizes guns are pointless against DD. Then Jason will go for his tasers which have one shotted metahumans like Cyborg, Beast Boy, and even Captain Nazi (a guy who can fight Captain Marvel apparently).

@allstarsuperman: hmm im in ISS so my reply will be short (sorry man) but it was the fight where they were both dressed as Robin (for the life of me i cant remember where its from) anything else ill have to counter later

@serrure: that's teen titans 29. Jason beat Drake unconscious.

hmm maybe im remembering it wrong then

after further review you are correct... my apologies sir. (whew teacher left)

though i still think its a stretch for Jason to take out someone who can bat bullets back at his opponents. thats pretty insane

Punisher headshots Roy and then they double team Red Hood.

If he doesn't want to kill him, Roy still gets shot in the hands and feet.

Yeah prep time and bfr none of that matters when you have DD and Punisher vs a weak sauce green arrow and a cheap batman version of punisher...(jk) but still team DD and Punisher wins

@serrure: I always want to know the context behind that scan. The the heck is up with that finger gun? Lol

thats a good question. and honestly i cant remember (i havent picked up a DD comic in years) so i could be missing some context but i can provide a similar instance where DD just reflected a regular bullet

Gallery

and even more accurate deflection. this one i do remember is from his Man Without Fear: mini series. The Writers name escapes me but i know he was a Jr.

@serrure: Man without fear is the only DD story I own. Its written by Miller, and drawn by Romita Jr.

Yeah DD can sure block and dodge ranged weapons, but i personally don't see radar sense being quite so helpful in H2H or CQC.

And radar sense apparently has some limits. I know Winter Soldier has snuck up on Matt before. Maybe Jason could as well. Jason has snucknup on Catwoman, and Catwoman can detect a sneaking Batman.

@allstarsuperman: winter soldier snuck up on DD thats weird. even Cap couldnt fully surprise Daredevil...

see DD can sense heartbeats and to my knowledge neither WS or Red Hood could "hide" their heartbeats... i mean unless they stopped their hearts but i dont think that would help em win

@serrure: I haven't seen the scan, but Silm87 (or something like that told me about it.) Jason might actually be able to mask his heart beat. Both Drake and Batman have done it. And in Supergirl 35 she says she can here his heart beat and tell if he's lying, he later stealths away from her and she says that she can't find him even with super hearing.

Red Hood is good, but not better than both of those guys, plus Roy would die in this fight.

Red hood is the most trained and vestile. And arsenal is no slouch so All rounds go to the outsiders in red

Arrows < Bullets (Not to mention Punisher is a lot more accurate)

Daredevil > Red Hood (Plain and Simple)

Team 2 for a very healthy majority.

Matt solos.

Son of a bitch. Piece of shit token bug.

LMAO.

Team 2

yeah, we all know that, Bullets and Sticks are somehow superior to Bullets and Arrows.

Yet, Jason is clearly faster......and isn't consistently shot up by fodder.

Team two sweeps.

@allstarsuperman:

yeah, we all know that, Bullets and Sticks are somehow superior to Bullets and Arrows.

Of course they are, bullets are faster than arrows and sticks can do this on Daredevil's hands. The best thing about them is that they actually got the best of someone who consistently catches bullets and reacts in microseconds.

Gallery

Yet, Jason is clearly faster......and isn't consistently shot up by fodder.

Too bad Arsenal is rather useless here and Jason can already be overpowered by a single member of Team 2.

@ghostravage: Neither Jason or Roy would be surprised by Daredevils sticks, they have both fought and worked with Nightwing who can do the same thing. Matts sticks also lack range, they would be useless in a gunfire.

Before you pull up irrelevant scans of him takin out fodder. They are just fodder.

Arsenal useless? Yeah, sure. I mean he can only shoot out a cloaking arrow that would blind Frank making him useless, I'm sure he has a net arrow that would catch Matt, he has massive explosive arrows that would one shot either member of marvels team.

Again. Just because you don't know the character, doesn't make them unimpressive.

@allstarsuperman:

Neither Jason or Roy would be surprised by Daredevils sticks, they have both fought and worked with Nightwing who can do the same thing. Matts sticks also lack range, they would be useless in a gunfire.

Nightwing doesn't have Daredevil's senses which is the sole reason why he can ricochet his sticks with such unpredictability and accuracy, you stating they won't be surprised because Nightwing has ricocheted his sticks (i need to see this) is meaningless as he sure as hell doesn't do it on Daredevil's fashion. He has taken out several people with them, overpowered top notch martial artists and actually overpowered Punisher himself with them, you not seeing them as useful doesn't make your approach any factual.

Before you pull up irrelevant scans of him takin out fodder. They are just fodder.

The scan i posted wasn't fodder and that guy was a master martial artist by Daredevil's own admission, even more so when the same guy had precognition and upgraded senses to couple with his already decent martial arts.

Arsenal useless? Yeah, sure. I mean he can only shoot out a cloaking arrow that would blind Frank making him useless, I'm sure he has a net arrow that would catch Matt, he has massive explosive arrows that would one shot either member of marvels team.

Arrows are slow, even more so against people who can shoot the damn arrows from afar or simply dodge them with incredible ease. The net arrow won't even come near to tag Daredevil the guy is the best dodger and has the best reflexes of these 4 characters, you know what can one shot anyone here? A freaking bullet to the head and you know who has a plethora of gear who could one shot anyone here as well, Punisher does, Frag Grenade rounds, high explosives rounds, frags, 2 assault rifles.

Again. Just because you don't know the character, doesn't make them unimpressive.

Again, just because you can't accept the fact those characters can lose doesn't meant they actually can't. Team 2 is better stacked up and has better arsenal (pun intended).

@ghostravage: Nightwing uses his sticks (and batarangs) to ricochet exactly like Matt. Yet, Jason has dodged them anyway.

Stop acting like beating the Punisher is so impressive, sure it's a decent feat, but Punisher has so very few wins under his belt. It's not comparable to Jason beating Batman, or Roy beating Cheshire.

Punisher can't shoot arrows, he is no Winter Soldier. Daredevil would be tagged by AoE arrows, there's no way around that. Matt doesn't know what arrow is which and how it works, he could block the wrong one, and have it blow up in his face.

Daredevil is also the most vulnerable here, he doesn't wear armor and I haven't seen any decent durability feats for him.

Actually a bullet to the head would not one shot Jason, cause you know, that already failed in the past.

Punisher can't headshot either Roy or Jason, not when they are faster and more agile, and can return fire at the same time.

Yeah, apparently a grenade is so impressive, yet Arsenals explosive arrows that are at least 3 times that size arent. Both Jason and especially Roy have the offensive advantage against the Marvel team.

Blah blah, Jason and Roy can lose, I even made a huge ass post which CV ate. IMO, Jason and Roy win rounds 1 and 3, While Frank and Matt take rounds 2 and 4 (which are basically the same).