Raven vs. Willow (Read OP)

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

Well, her magic was almost depleted when she was in pursuit of Buffy, Xander, Jonathan and Andrew - they were in police car, she was on top off truck, and she was forced to abandon her pursuit because her magic was depleted - thats wahy she attacked Rack - to absorbe his magic. From the other hand magic in season 6 is pretty inconsistent with rest of the show - for exemple, never before or after magic was used as allegory of drugs etc.

Her power was almost depleted after summoning the God Osiris and then hitting him with a magic scream that both hurt him and sent him away. Then she absorbed all the knowledge for spells out of every book in the magic shop. Then she healed Buffy at the hospital. Magically holding Buffy, And Xander as she used super strength to crush the warrenbot and teleporting away. Then using magic found warren. Heals from an axe to her spine, stops all of his magic protection he got from Rack, and has the earth attack him. Then with a single word brought back the ghost of warens dead ex gf. Then she magically sealed his mouth shut as she tortured him with the bullet that killed Tara. Then she skinned him alive with a gesture and then disintegrated his body with a thought (until later retconned to amy magically bringing him back to life) and teleported away. Arrives at the jail and telekinetically takes out the cops and a concrete wall. Takes out a vengeance demon with a magic blast, and THEN she was ALMOST depleted after taking over an 18-wheeler .

Before or after? There were two witches introduced from before. One was killed that same episode, and the other written off a couple of cameos. And willow only dabbled with magic. And since when have allegories been used to show inconsistencies? Thats like saying the cover to Avengers Academy 29 is an inconistancy because the headquarters wont actually be a concentration camp.

OK, I understand what you meant - she did all those things without stealing magic from other people. Point taken. :) Hoever after that Willow indeed stole magic from both Rack and Giles, and that's what I meant when I said that she used stolen magic. But you are right, she was mostly using her own magic during season 6 finale. What I meant by inconsistencies... I meant that never before magic was shown to be addictive and they never said that it can be depleted, quite the contrary in season 7 Giles said that everything is connected etc. so I don't thing that magic user should ever run out of magic, there shouldn't be any problems with replenishing magic, since magic is supposedly everywhere, and it's connected to everything. So it's even better for Willow. Witches? We saw Amy's mother, Amy herself and Tara. That's tree not two ;) besides Willow herself of course.

I don't think you do understand what i meant. When willow absorbs the magic from someone else, she doesn't borrow it. Borrow implies its temporary or going to be returned. Borrow implies that she cant do the feats again without taking the same magic from the same sources. When she absorbs magic it becomes hers.

Giles: Everything's connected. You're connected to a great power, whether you feel it or not.

Willow: Well you should just take it from me.

Giles: You know we can't. This isn't a hobby or an addiction. It's inside you now, this magic. You're responsible for it.

Also i was just saying willow did all those feats on her own power (which is ture). You stated she got tired from just doing the truck feat. She was doing powerful magics all day and night.

When tara was introudeced she was the very first person to bring up that magic was addictive. So using it's two, not three. And as i said before magic was talked about rarely from a witches POV and it was never discussed if it was addictive or not. It was barely discussed at all. So it isn't an inconsistency, it's a revelation. And magic is still treated as addictive in season 7.

Borrow? When I said that she borrowed anything? I said that she stole magic from people. And that is true. And yes, yes this is quote I was talking about: Giles said that everything is connected - so Willow shouldn't just run out of magic, because she is constantly conected to greater power. Also he said that magic is no addiction. Pretty contradictory to magic in season 6, don't you think? maybe it is a retcon, or maybe it is just next level of Willow's initiation to word of magic? And yes, I said that Willow runned out of magic, when she was in pursuit of Buffy&CO but I didn't said what happened before that - my bad. Magic as addiction in season 7? When?

"Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6" - HBKTimHBK

"No she didnt" - job

"frankly saying she did." - you

Willow hasn't needed to absorb magic since taking the power of the Devon coven and being trained by Mrs. Harkness. Willow wasn't properly trained in magic she was just naturally more adept at using it. That is until Season 7 and 8. He told willow that her current use of magic isn't an addiction (season 6) or a hobby (season 2-4) But a responsibility. It wasn't meant to be taken to mean literally she was never addicted because he was one of the few who first suggested she might have a problem. Dont worry about it i honestly forget that most of the last 3 episodes of season 6 happen within 24 hours of each other. Willow herself thought she wasn't sure if she should go back to sunnydale and thought she was still addicted to dark magic.All i'm saying is dont be hung up on analogies. In season 4 magic was a metaphor for lesbian sex.

We really should stop quoting..

@Charmix said:

Sorry to cut in, but calling someone a twit should be kept to one self. It's better to ignore somebody if their pestering you :), it doesn't start a debate rather an out of topic argument.

But he does bring in a point, Raven may be of magic lineage but she herself hasn't display any magic related uses other than her feats when she was evil, but those were rare. The only method she brings into play is her empathy and her astral projection. Unless you have scans that depicts her using magic in the way that is comparable to Willow. Though his wording may of been off, but I guess it depends on how who reads it, I read it as, "Why is Raven being matched against Willow, when she has low showing in magic." that's just my interpretation.

Partly this isn't a magic only struggle, its Willows major tick, but in essence you could say its kinda like a Jean vs Strange battle. And, like I've mentioned before, it is entirely possible that Raven's form of magic is in what she normally does because Wolfman was challenged to reinvent the Mystic Character and he wanted to avoid the Fate/Strange/Zatanna kind (which also seems to be Willows kind).

@Outside_85 said:

@Charmix said:

Sorry to cut in, but calling someone a twit should be kept to one self. It's better to ignore somebody if their pestering you :), it doesn't start a debate rather an out of topic argument.

But he does bring in a point, Raven may be of magic lineage but she herself hasn't display any magic related uses other than her feats when she was evil, but those were rare. The only method she brings into play is her empathy and her astral projection. Unless you have scans that depicts her using magic in the way that is comparable to Willow. Though his wording may of been off, but I guess it depends on how who reads it, I read it as, "Why is Raven being matched against Willow, when she has low showing in magic." that's just my interpretation.

Partly this isn't a magic only struggle, its Willows major tick, but in essence you could say its kinda like a Jean vs Strange battle. And, like I've mentioned before, it is entirely possible that Raven's form of magic is in what she normally does because Wolfman was challenged to reinvent the Mystic Character and he wanted to avoid the Fate/Strange/Zatanna kind (which also seems to be Willows kind).

I know it's not, but it's mainly what Willow has. Since it's the main focus, how is Raven going to tackle it? When Willow's magic allow her a myriad of things to accomplish. I haven't seen that battle.... can you link me :). So her soul self and empathy are magic in nature, correct and not psionic? From what your saying. I see, but most magic character follow up on the two you mentioned as an example. But what is Raven going to do that will protect her from Willow's magic?

@Charmix said:

I know it's not, but it's mainly what Willow has. Since it's the main focus, how is Raven going to tackle it? When Willow's magic allow her a myriad of things to accomplish. I haven't seen that battle.... can you link me :). So her soul self and empathy are magic in nature, correct and not psionic? From what your saying. I see, but most magic character follow up on the two you mentioned as an example. But what is Raven going to do that will protect her from Willow's magic?

Hmm I see what you mean in regards to the fight i mentioned (thought someone would have made one of those), but I suppose you get the gist of it?

And yes, i believe that Raven's powers, due to her parentage are psionic-like abilities who are simply magical in origins. But there is no real evidence of either case since I cant recall Raven ever having faced someone who was immune or particularly vulnerable to one or the other. May be this (taking out 3000+ demons, some of whom could physically beat down Superboy and Wonder Girl):

What will she do? With a week of preparation I suppose she will study if she doesn't put all of her money on her own insta-gib assault being fast enough (but that leaves us to guess who has the quickest draw).

@Outside_85: I got it:) I'm quite understanding lol. Okay, to begin

Her doing that was under extreme pain from the aura that Solstice was emitting, the "light" which Raven was so sensitive about and as to why she kept her distance away from Solstice. (Was it really 3000+? I remember seeing like an army but not that much.)

With prep Willow is like the Dues ex machina. Already Willow can do feats that are consider high level to other witches. She was able to accomplish many things with ritual work, and she even brought back Buffy, without prep but with components required for the spell. Prep is Willow's best friend, the effects on what she can do are endless. I guess it depends on who draws the gun faster. But mark that Willow can transmute Raven in which she has no protection over.

@Phylos said:

@Renee said:

First round, Willow transforms Raven into a raven. It's an instantaneous attack and Raven has no defense against it. The second round I would give to Willow as well considering the week of preparation. Willow is a genius who is used to prepping against people all the time.

@Charmix: Yes Raven was doing that under the annoyance it was to have Solstice was nearby, but unlike the pulse she knocked everyone over with when they first got attacked (ending up with both Robin and Ravager getting caught) , that other one was pulled off after they were sprung from Rankor's throne-creature and all a bit wobbly, but still it was under her control that time. (And yes, according to Kid Flash it was 3000+, or atleast he said he stopped counting at that figure).

Yes, Willow can transmute Raven, if Raven fails to find an adequate defense against it during her week of prep.

i am leaning toward willow for the first round. . tk, transmutation, magic bolts... etc.

second round have not decided yet.

@charlieboy said:

i am leaning toward willow for the first round. . tk, transmutation, magic bolts... etc.

second round have not decided yet.

Fair enough

@Outside_85: I'll have to read the issue again. I know they shook off her empathic attack in a few moments later.

Thats the problem, how much of a magical defense would Raven have. There;s endless to Willow as prep is at her side.

Raven couldn't even knock out Garth and Kid flash with that attack. She didn't take down 3000 demons. She distracted them long enough for the titans to attack rankor. It is not down to who acts first. There's absolutely nothing Raven can do that will or can take out willow. Willow has enough power to hurt Gods. In season 8 she nearly killed one. Even if your nerf her abilites down to season 6 pre dark willow levels. She could reality warp with a flick of her wrist. Season 8 willow was ripping out souls and transmuting groups of demons into kittens with a thought. She doesn't even need her shields because she can absorb magical attacks and a healing Factor that's pretty much instant. What has Dark raven done that would make people go "i have to think about this one"? I honestly don't remember her doing anything other than trying to mind rape the titans. Honestly this is just a stomp.

@Charmix: @Job: Umm, no they didnt shug off the attack I put in as a picture...there was nothing left of them.

@Outside_85 said:

@Charmix: @Job: Umm, no they didnt shug off the attack I put in as a picture...there was nothing left of them.

You think putting up one page and making a claim is supposed negate the fact that the demons were seen on a panel a page or two later just fine? Or am i supposed to ignore the fact that Raven twice failed to knock out the titans with human durability with an attack she had no control of? But you suppose this attack will knock out someone who absorbs magical attacks and has shields? Willow absolutely slaughter stomps.

@Job said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Charmix: @Job: Umm, no they didnt shug off the attack I put in as a picture...there was nothing left of them.

You think putting up one page and making a claim is supposed negate the fact that the demons were seen on a panel a page or two later just fine? Or am i supposed to ignore the fact that Raven twice failed to knock out the titans with human durability with an attack she had no control of? But you suppose this attack will knock out someone who absorbs magical attacks and has shields? Willow absolutely slaughter stomps.

Please go read the book, since you seem to have no idea what I am talking about...

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Charmix: @Job: Umm, no they didnt shug off the attack I put in as a picture...there was nothing left of them.

You think putting up one page and making a claim is supposed negate the fact that the demons were seen on a panel a page or two later just fine? Or am i supposed to ignore the fact that Raven twice failed to knock out the titans with human durability with an attack she had no control of? But you suppose this attack will knock out someone who absorbs magical attacks and has shields? Willow absolutely slaughter stomps.

Please go read the book, since you seem to have no idea what I am talking about...

I personally took a snapshot of the demons still being alive just last night. I dont need to go re read the book. And for some reason you keep ignoring the fact that the Titans were relatively unharmed by ravens attack as well. Perhaps you should take your own advice. Also you dont really seem to have an argument as to how in any way this attack will hurt willow, so i think i'm about done with this thread. that is until someone actually provides an argument.

@Job said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Charmix: @Job: Umm, no they didnt shug off the attack I put in as a picture...there was nothing left of them.

You think putting up one page and making a claim is supposed negate the fact that the demons were seen on a panel a page or two later just fine? Or am i supposed to ignore the fact that Raven twice failed to knock out the titans with human durability with an attack she had no control of? But you suppose this attack will knock out someone who absorbs magical attacks and has shields? Willow absolutely slaughter stomps.

Please go read the book, since you seem to have no idea what I am talking about...

I personally took a snapshot of the demons still being alive just last night. I dont need to go re read the book. And for some reason you keep ignoring the fact that the Titans were relatively unharmed by ravens attack as well. Perhaps you should take your own advice. Also you dont really seem to have an argument as to how in any way this attack will hurt willow, so i think i'm about done with this thread. that is until someone actually provides an argument.

Sure you did, since you appear to be so full of knowledge. Now let me tell you what happens before and after that little picture (not that I think it will matter);

The demons have picked off the Titans two by two since arriving in Rankor's kingdom in pursuit of first Solstice's parents then Wonder Girl and her mother. During the first demon attack Raven cracks due to an oppressive influence that she is certain is coming from Solstice, while Beastboy thinks its the demon kingdom. Result is Raven suddenly releasing a large shockwave of power that sends everyone flying, Red Robin and Ravager are taken captive when everyone is trying to get back on their feet (while Ravager is replaced by a shapeshifter). During the second ambush Superboy is beaten down by a many-armed demon while Raven gets berated by the shape shifter for not using all of the powers she has and reminding her again of what she is (a subject she is pretty touchy about) before they are taken captive as well. After Beastboy and Solstice manages to free them all through the power of monkey-king and a big stick, Raven again has a moment of freaking out because of Solstice's presence and nearly attacks her before they all realize that Rankors demon army is bearing down on them (where Bart mentions he stopped counting at 3000). Violence ensures as the Titans tries to get back at the demons who jumped them, at this point Beastboy or Tim asks Raven to seriously reconsider not keeping a lid on herself and...picture happens, all but one demon are gone (never to be seen again) leaving the Titans free to assault the only one left standing; Rankor and his walking throne. While the Titans tries to bring it down the old fashion way through punching it, Solstice (so far having remained with her parents) decides it's also time for her to stop pretending she cant do anything and pretty quickly blows a hole through the throne, bringing it down. A pretty steamed Rankor emerges from the rubble and starts absorbing his own realm to deal with Solstice and the Titans, Tim orders a retreat and Raven teleports everyone save Solstice to the breach between Rankors world and the normal one, Raven doesnt know why Solstice was left behind, but it hardy matters as Solstice manages to defeat Rankor again before retreating with the others before the portal closes...end of story.

@Outside_85: I dont know why you felt the need give me synopsis of what happened. I know what happened Now ignoring just about everything you said, raven didnt kill 3000+ demons because they can be seen in a small panel during Solstices attack on Rankor. So you can go back read again carefully, or i can post the scan. Your choice. Either way your wanking of raven has run its course, so i'll be in other threads for now.

@Job: Post the scan.

@Job said:

Raven couldn't even knock out Garth and Kid flash with that attack. She didn't take down 3000 demons. She distracted them long enough for the titans to attack rankor. It is not down to who acts first. There's absolutely nothing Raven can do that will or can take out willow. Willow has enough power to hurt Gods. In season 8 she nearly killed one. Even if your nerf her abilites down to season 6 pre dark willow levels. She could reality warp with a flick of her wrist. Season 8 willow was ripping out souls and transmuting groups of demons into kittens with a thought. She doesn't even need her shields because she can absorb magical attacks and a healing Factor that's pretty much instant. What has Dark raven done that would make people go "i have to think about this one"? I honestly don't remember her doing anything other than trying to mind rape the titans. Honestly this is just a stomp.

No, this is comic versions, just saying

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Raven couldn't even knock out Garth and Kid flash with that attack. She didn't take down 3000 demons. She distracted them long enough for the titans to attack rankor. It is not down to who acts first. There's absolutely nothing Raven can do that will or can take out willow. Willow has enough power to hurt Gods. In season 8 she nearly killed one. Even if your nerf her abilites down to season 6 pre dark willow levels. She could reality warp with a flick of her wrist. Season 8 willow was ripping out souls and transmuting groups of demons into kittens with a thought. She doesn't even need her shields because she can absorb magical attacks and a healing Factor that's pretty much instant. What has Dark raven done that would make people go "i have to think about this one"? I honestly don't remember her doing anything other than trying to mind rape the titans. Honestly this is just a stomp.

No, this is comic versions, just saying

I know its comic levels. Im just saying if you go even weaker than Dark willow its still a massive stomp for willow.