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#1 Edited by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven vs. Willow

  • Both comics versions (Willow has her magic)
  • Takes place in the remains of Sunnydale
  • Both have a week to learn about the other opponent and prepare
  • Starts off 20 feet from each other
  • No people in the area
  • Round 1
  • Raven vs. Willow
  • Morals On
  • Round 2
  • Evil Raven vs. Dark Willow
  • Morals Off
#2 Posted by Iamlovewithin500 (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven all he way the first round. 
 
second round..I aint sure

#3 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Iamlovewithin500 said:

Raven all he way the first round. second round..I aint sure

I'm glad I made a match that needs thought put in lol

#4 Posted by Roddy010 (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah awesome thread I'll have to think on this sure...

#5 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

Yeah awesome thread I'll have to think on this sure...

Thank you haha

#6 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#7 Posted by Roddy010 (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless Willow has a way to defend against Raven soulself...I see Raven taking both rounds...

#8 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

Unless Willow has a way to defend against Raven soulself...I see Raven taking both rounds...

I'm not sure what magic can do to defend against that

#9 Posted by Roddy010 (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Roddy010 said:

Unless Willow has a way to defend against Raven soulself...I see Raven taking both rounds...

I'm not sure what magic can do to defend against that

Well with a potent enough Spell Willow should possibly be able to effect it however I don't recall any showings that say Raven's soul self could be effected by magic in the first place...

#10 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010: Hmm, this battle is interesting

#11 Edited by The Stegman (26102 posts) - - Show Bio

First round: Raven after a great fight 
 
Second Round Raven pretty easily, Dark Willow didn't have much stamina, she burned herself out pretty quick. 
 
EDIT- Upon giving this some more thought, I'd say Comic Willow wins round one, but stand by Dark Willow losing round two.

#12 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

Second Round Raven pretty easily, Dark Willow didn't have much stamina, she burned herself out pretty quick.

Hmm, just curious, if you think Dark Willow didn't have such poor stamina, she'd have the ability to take Raven?

#13 Posted by The Stegman (26102 posts) - - Show Bio
@HBKTimHBK: Honestly...no, Dark Willow really didn't impress me, she was working off of borrowed magics for most of her run, and was able to be subdued by Gile's entrapment spell, pretty much everything I've seen her do, Raven could do plus more.
#14 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

@HBKTimHBK: Honestly...no, Dark Willow really didn't impress me, she was working off of borrowed magics for most of her run, and was able to be subdued by Gile's entrapment spell, pretty much everything I've seen her do, Raven could do plus more.

Well she also managed to survive for centuries in a possible future

#15 Posted by The Stegman (26102 posts) - - Show Bio
@HBKTimHBK:  
 


@The Stegman said:

@HBKTimHBK: Honestly...no, Dark Willow really didn't impress me, she was working off of borrowed magics for most of her run, and was able to be subdued by Gile's entrapment spell, pretty much everything I've seen her do, Raven could do plus more.

Well she also managed to survive for centuries in a possible future

Not really sure how she did it...if current continuity stands firm, magic still didn't exist in Fray's future thanks to Buffy destroying the seed, so Willow should have been powerless (although granted she did have very limited abilities in that future.)
#16 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

@HBKTimHBK:

@The Stegman said:

@HBKTimHBK: Honestly...no, Dark Willow really didn't impress me, she was working off of borrowed magics for most of her run, and was able to be subdued by Gile's entrapment spell, pretty much everything I've seen her do, Raven could do plus more.

Well she also managed to survive for centuries in a possible future

Not really sure how she did it...if current continuity stands firm, magic still didn't exist in Fray's future thanks to Buffy destroying the seed, so Willow should have been powerless (although granted she did have very limited abilities in that future.)

Eh, I don't believe magic will stay gone.

#17 Posted by Renee (10265 posts) - - Show Bio

First round, Willow transforms Raven into a raven. It's an instantaneous attack and Raven has no defense against it. The second round I would give to Willow as well considering the week of preparation. Willow is a genius who is used to prepping against people all the time.

#18 Posted by 202122 (1145 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven takes round 1

Evil Raven takes round 2

#19 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@202122 said:

Raven takes round 1

Evil Raven takes round 2

Why?

#20 Posted by Phylos (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@Renee said:

First round, Willow transforms Raven into a raven. It's an instantaneous attack and Raven has no defense against it. The second round I would give to Willow as well considering the week of preparation. Willow is a genius who is used to prepping against people all the time.

#21 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#22 Posted by Outside_85 (10316 posts) - - Show Bio

If I am reading this correctly:

Round 1: A stamina fight more than anything as both combatants will be going in with shields up, but atm I think Willow will be tapping out first.

Round 2: I am currently leaning towards Willow on this one because of her supposed level of power in the Buffy-verse, but I am not quite sure how to measure it against the DC verse...like Slayer super strength, to my knowledge, is not even close to Donna Troy or Starfire super-strength.

#23 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4441 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

If I am reading this correctly:

Round 1: A stamina fight more than anything as both combatants will be going in with shields up, but atm I think Willow will be tapping out first.

Round 2: I am currently leaning towards Willow on this one because of her supposed level of power in the Buffy-verse, but I am not quite sure how to measure it against the DC verse...like Slayer super strength, to my knowledge, is not even close to Donna Troy or Starfire super-strength.

I don't know about that, Willows created a barrier against the knights and estimated it would hold for two days, this barrier wasn't something she had to consciously hold and was able to do magic while it was up, and even after Glory punched a hole in it, the shield just fixed itself without Willow doing anything or even knowing as she had to lower it to allow Buffy to get through.

I understand your point concerning the second round, except Slayer strength is not the top strength level in the Buffyverse and there are beings considerably stronger than Slayers. If Buffy can outrace bullets and derail trains, we can assume that Glory or full powered Illyria for example can do much more as they are physically superior to Buffy. Cyrus Vail can manipulate reality and alter history just like any powerful magic user in any universe can. If Raven has any feats of magic they can be compared to Willow. I've heard about her magic but have yet to see an example of her using it especially on a high level, so comparatively Dark Willow shouldn't have that much trouble.

#24 Posted by Outside_85 (10316 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Have no idea who the Knights are or what they are capable of (my knowledge if possibly pretty limited by it being a few seasons of the TV show that aired where i live).

As for Raven's magic, well no, she doesnt have high-end feats that are specifically termed as magic of the Zatanna variety. She doesn't speak magic words, pronounce lines of mumbo jumbo before something happens, she just wills something to happen, and it does. And this is pretty fundamental to Raven's character because Wolfman was asked to get a mystic on his New Teen Titans, Wolfman was initially opposed to it because he didn't want a Dr. Strange or a Phantom Stranger, so he was nudged/challenged to come up with a new kind of mystic. So perhaps the magic of Raven lies in her empathic powers and in her soul-self rather than in more traditional magic.

#25 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4441 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: Have no idea who the Knights are or what they are capable of (my knowledge if possibly pretty limited by it being a few seasons of the TV show that aired where i live).

As for Raven's magic, well no, she doesnt have high-end feats that are specifically termed as magic of the Zatanna variety. She doesn't speak magic words, pronounce lines of mumbo jumbo before something happens, she just wills something to happen, and it does. And this is pretty fundamental to Raven's character because Wolfman was asked to get a mystic on his New Teen Titans, Wolfman was initially opposed to it because he didn't want a Dr. Strange or a Phantom Stranger, so he was nudged/challenged to come up with a new kind of mystic. So perhaps the magic of Raven lies in her empathic powers and in her soul-self rather than in more traditional magic.

The knights are some ancient order of warriors formed to fight the "Beast" - Glory. You said Willow would tap out first in the shielding department, she just created a self sustaining barrier and they needed a group of clerics to try to to breach it, and even when Glory punched her way through the barrier, it just closed up without Willow doing anything. I'm just suggesting that Willow can create barriers that can stop Glory on contact, and that are not an extension of her will and will not give just because she is using her magic in other ways. It takes a greater force and even this did not cause the barrier to crumble it only made a temporary hole that closed instantly.

If all her magic lies in her empathic powers and soul-self then she really has nothing to beat Willow with. Willow can teleport if she is BFRed and she was exposed to the emotions of every living thing on the Earth and all it did was make her want to destroy the planet, it didn't slow her down one bit.

#26 Posted by Joygirl (19955 posts) - - Show Bio

Great pic of Raven. :D Also, she wins lots I think.

#27 Posted by Outside_85 (10316 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Problem is that Raven isn't just a human with a trinket (which is how the Knights are appearing in my head), second part is that she could just teleport to the other side even if she cant breach it through physical force. Also, I never said Willow's shield would fail faster, but that Willows own stamina seems to be quite low even if her magic isn't, also it appears she has the same problem of really tapping into the magic/powers she has out of fear of turning evil, only that Willow's threshold is lower than Ravens (by the looks of it).

Question, can Willow teleport between dimensions? As for the empathic overload...was rather counting on Raven trying draining her completely of emotions or give her that look into her mind, which may or may not work.

#28 Posted by Renee (10265 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85:

There were more than just knights, there were monks as well who where trying to break the spell and couldn't. Willow doesn't have low stamina. I'm not sure why she would even need shields when she can just use telekinesis or transform Raven into and animal instantly with no incantation or gesture necessary. It's fast, effective and Raven has no defense against that kind of attack. Willow's fear of turning evil was a long time ago. And to answer your question Willow can teleport between dimensions.

#29 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

Great pic of Raven. :D Also, she wins lots I think.

Thank you lol

#30 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4441 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: The Knights themselves don't use magic, they have a team of clerics. If Raven did manage to teleport then they'd fight, the barrier did not hamper her ability to use magic then and it certainly wouldn't happen to comic Willow. Willow before the comic was afraid to tap her magic after Dark Willow because she was afraid of the First possessing her and turning her to the dark side, other than that she was fine with tapping her magic and had more self control. When Dawn went missing before Dark Willow, Willow was about to shunt everybody that wasn't 15 into an alternate dimension, accidentally pulled a version of herself from an alternate dimension, sent the Troll God back to the dimension of Trolls, pulled Buffys soul out of Heaven and brought Buffy back (after Dark Willow) from the dimension/time she went to the find out about the true origins of the Slayer, so I'm betting the more powerful Willow in this battle can swing teleportation from another dimension.

#31 Edited by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

#32 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

#33 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

If I am reading this correctly:

Round 1: A stamina fight more than anything as both combatants will be going in with shields up, but atm I think Willow will be tapping out first.

Round 2: I am currently leaning towards Willow on this one because of her supposed level of power in the Buffy-verse, but I am not quite sure how to measure it against the DC verse...like Slayer super strength, to my knowledge, is not even close to Donna Troy or Starfire super-strength.

#34 Posted by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

#35 Posted by Picard (997 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

#36 Edited by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

#37 Posted by Picard (997 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

Well, her magic was almost depleted when she was in pursuit of Buffy, Xander, Jonathan and Andrew - they were in police car, she was on top off truck, and she was forced to abandon her pursuit because her magic was depleted - thats wahy she attacked Rack - to absorbe his magic. From the other hand magic in season 6 is pretty inconsistent with rest of the show - for exemple, never before or after magic was used as allegory of drugs etc.

#38 Posted by Outside_85 (10316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

Reason 1: She's a half-demon, meaning half of her being is rooted in magic since according to both DC and nearly all settings outside of the Bible (and sometimes even there), demons are creatures of magical origins.

Reason 2: Because she is a half-demon, it means she has magical powers, which all DC demons have save Blue Devil that Zatanna has mentioned as having the lowest levels of magical manipulation out of all of them.

Reason 3: It's on paper that she has them, though they mostly tend to manifest clearly from her soul-self when she's gone over to the dark side.

Reason 4: Bart Allen once said: "I mean, look at Raven. Her dad's basically Satan."

#39 Posted by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

Well, her magic was almost depleted when she was in pursuit of Buffy, Xander, Jonathan and Andrew - they were in police car, she was on top off truck, and she was forced to abandon her pursuit because her magic was depleted - thats wahy she attacked Rack - to absorbe his magic. From the other hand magic in season 6 is pretty inconsistent with rest of the show - for exemple, never before or after magic was used as allegory of drugs etc.

Her power was almost depleted after summoning the God Osiris and then hitting him with a magic scream that both hurt him and sent him away. Then she absorbed all the knowledge for spells out of every book in the magic shop. Then she healed Buffy at the hospital. Magically holding Buffy, And Xander as she used super strength to crush the warrenbot and teleporting away. Then using magic found warren. Heals from an axe to her spine, stops all of his magic protection he got from Rack, and has the earth attack him. Then with a single word brought back the ghost of warens dead ex gf. Then she magically sealed his mouth shut as she tortured him with the bullet that killed Tara. Then she skinned him alive with a gesture and then disintegrated his body with a thought (until later retconned to amy magically bringing him back to life) and teleported away. Arrives at the jail and telekinetically takes out the cops and a concrete wall. Takes out a vengeance demon with a magic blast, and THEN she was ALMOST depleted after taking over an 18-wheeler .

Before or after? There were two witches introduced from before. One was killed that same episode, and the other written off a couple of cameos. And willow only dabbled with magic. And since when have allegories been used to show inconsistencies? Thats like saying the cover to Avengers Academy 29 is an inconistancy because the headquarters wont actually be a concentration camp.

#40 Posted by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: So no magical feats comparable to Willows? thanks for clearing that up.

#41 Posted by Outside_85 (10316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@Outside_85: So no magical feats comparable to Willows? thanks for clearing that up.

Well you didnt ask for any either only claimed ignorance if Raven even had them or not.

#42 Posted by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85: So no magical feats comparable to Willows? thanks for clearing that up.

Well you didnt ask for any either only claimed ignorance if Raven even had them or not.

"Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow." - what i actually said

And instead of providing magical feats to the contrary, you just stated shes a magical creature because shes part demon and her dad looks like satan. So basically your post was pointless?

#43 Posted by Outside_85 (10316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85: So no magical feats comparable to Willows? thanks for clearing that up.

Well you didnt ask for any either only claimed ignorance if Raven even had them or not.

"Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow." - what i actually said

And instead of providing magical feats to the contrary, you just stated shes a magical creature because shes part demon and her dad looks like satan. So basically your post was pointless?

Ah, so you went ignorant, you were just being a twit.

#44 Edited by Picard (997 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

Well, her magic was almost depleted when she was in pursuit of Buffy, Xander, Jonathan and Andrew - they were in police car, she was on top off truck, and she was forced to abandon her pursuit because her magic was depleted - thats wahy she attacked Rack - to absorbe his magic. From the other hand magic in season 6 is pretty inconsistent with rest of the show - for exemple, never before or after magic was used as allegory of drugs etc.

Her power was almost depleted after summoning the God Osiris and then hitting him with a magic scream that both hurt him and sent him away. Then she absorbed all the knowledge for spells out of every book in the magic shop. Then she healed Buffy at the hospital. Magically holding Buffy, And Xander as she used super strength to crush the warrenbot and teleporting away. Then using magic found warren. Heals from an axe to her spine, stops all of his magic protection he got from Rack, and has the earth attack him. Then with a single word brought back the ghost of warens dead ex gf. Then she magically sealed his mouth shut as she tortured him with the bullet that killed Tara. Then she skinned him alive with a gesture and then disintegrated his body with a thought (until later retconned to amy magically bringing him back to life) and teleported away. Arrives at the jail and telekinetically takes out the cops and a concrete wall. Takes out a vengeance demon with a magic blast, and THEN she was ALMOST depleted after taking over an 18-wheeler .

Before or after? There were two witches introduced from before. One was killed that same episode, and the other written off a couple of cameos. And willow only dabbled with magic. And since when have allegories been used to show inconsistencies? Thats like saying the cover to Avengers Academy 29 is an inconistancy because the headquarters wont actually be a concentration camp.

OK, I understand what you meant - she did all those things without stealing magic from other people. Point taken. :) Hoever after that Willow indeed stole magic from both Rack and Giles, and that's what I meant when I said that she used stolen magic. But you are right, she was mostly using her own magic during season 6 finale. What I meant by inconsistencies... I meant that never before magic was shown to be addictive and they never said that it can be depleted, quite the contrary in season 7 Giles said that everything is connected etc. so I don't thing that magic user should ever run out of magic, there shouldn't be any problems with replenishing magic, since magic is supposedly everywhere, and it's connected to everything. So it's even better for Willow. Witches? We saw Amy's mother, Amy herself and Tara. That's three not two ;) besides Willow herself of course.

#45 Posted by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85: So no magical feats comparable to Willows? thanks for clearing that up.

Well you didnt ask for any either only claimed ignorance if Raven even had them or not.

"Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow." - what i actually said

And instead of providing magical feats to the contrary, you just stated shes a magical creature because shes part demon and her dad looks like satan. So basically your post was pointless?

Ah, so you went ignorant, you were just being a twit.

So you insult my intelligence while making grammatical errors because you made a pointless post? I think it's safe to say i wont be replying to anymore of your at reply's.

#46 Posted by Job (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

Well, her magic was almost depleted when she was in pursuit of Buffy, Xander, Jonathan and Andrew - they were in police car, she was on top off truck, and she was forced to abandon her pursuit because her magic was depleted - thats wahy she attacked Rack - to absorbe his magic. From the other hand magic in season 6 is pretty inconsistent with rest of the show - for exemple, never before or after magic was used as allegory of drugs etc.

Her power was almost depleted after summoning the God Osiris and then hitting him with a magic scream that both hurt him and sent him away. Then she absorbed all the knowledge for spells out of every book in the magic shop. Then she healed Buffy at the hospital. Magically holding Buffy, And Xander as she used super strength to crush the warrenbot and teleporting away. Then using magic found warren. Heals from an axe to her spine, stops all of his magic protection he got from Rack, and has the earth attack him. Then with a single word brought back the ghost of warens dead ex gf. Then she magically sealed his mouth shut as she tortured him with the bullet that killed Tara. Then she skinned him alive with a gesture and then disintegrated his body with a thought (until later retconned to amy magically bringing him back to life) and teleported away. Arrives at the jail and telekinetically takes out the cops and a concrete wall. Takes out a vengeance demon with a magic blast, and THEN she was ALMOST depleted after taking over an 18-wheeler .

Before or after? There were two witches introduced from before. One was killed that same episode, and the other written off a couple of cameos. And willow only dabbled with magic. And since when have allegories been used to show inconsistencies? Thats like saying the cover to Avengers Academy 29 is an inconistancy because the headquarters wont actually be a concentration camp.

OK, I understand what you meant - she did all those things without stealing magic from other people. Point taken. :) Hoever after that Willow indeed stole magic from both Rack and Giles, and that's what I meant when I said that she used stolen magic. But you are right, she was mostly using her own magic during season 6 finale. What I meant by inconsistencies... I meant that never before magic was shown to be addictive and they never said that it can be depleted, quite the contrary in season 7 Giles said that everything is connected etc. so I don't thing that magic user should ever run out of magic, there shouldn't be any problems with replenishing magic, since magic is supposedly everywhere, and it's connected to everything. So it's even better for Willow. Witches? We saw Amy's mother, Amy herself and Tara. That's tree not two ;) besides Willow herself of course.

I don't think you do understand what i meant. When willow absorbs the magic from someone else, she doesn't borrow it. Borrow implies its temporary or going to be returned. Borrow implies that she cant do the feats again without taking the same magic from the same sources. When she absorbs magic it becomes hers.

Giles: Everything's connected. You're connected to a great power, whether you feel it or not.

Willow: Well you should just take it from me.

Giles: You know we can't. This isn't a hobby or an addiction. It's inside you now, this magic. You're responsible for it.

Also i was just saying willow did all those feats on her own power (which is ture). You stated she got tired from just doing the truck feat. She was doing powerful magics all day and night.

When tara was introudeced she was the very first person to bring up that magic was addictive. So using it's two, not three. And as i said before magic was talked about rarely from a witches POV and it was never discussed if it was addictive or not. It was barely discussed at all. So it isn't an inconsistency, it's a revelation. And magic is still treated as addictive in season 7.

#47 Posted by Charmix (11838 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Job said:

@Outside_85: So no magical feats comparable to Willows? thanks for clearing that up.

Well you didnt ask for any either only claimed ignorance if Raven even had them or not.

"Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow." - what i actually said

And instead of providing magical feats to the contrary, you just stated shes a magical creature because shes part demon and her dad looks like satan. So basically your post was pointless?

Ah, so you went ignorant, you were just being a twit.

Sorry to cut in, but calling someone a twit should be kept to one self. It's better to ignore somebody if their pestering you :), it doesn't start a debate rather an out of topic argument.

But he does bring in a point, Raven may be of magic lineage but she herself hasn't display any magic related uses other than her feats when she was evil, but those were rare. The only method she brings into play is her empathy and her astral projection. Unless you have scans that depicts her using magic in the way that is comparable to Willow. Though his wording may of been off, but I guess it depends on how who reads it, I read it as, "Why is Raven being matched against Willow, when she has low showing in magic." that's just my interpretation.

#48 Posted by Picard (997 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@Picard said:

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

frankly saying she did. She stole magic from Rack, next she stole it from Giles. I don't know nothing about Revan, so I don't say who would win, I just say that Willow in fact stole magic from people.

Frankly saying she didn't. She absorbed magic and combined it with her own. Giles borrowed magic ie someone gave it to him. As giles confirmed in the first episode of season 7 the magic willow absorbed is apart of her and it cant be taken away. Raven cant do anything magic wise, i dont know why she was even matched up with willow. Yes willow in fact stole magic from people and added it to her own. Thats not called borrowing. Giles borrowed magic.

Well, her magic was almost depleted when she was in pursuit of Buffy, Xander, Jonathan and Andrew - they were in police car, she was on top off truck, and she was forced to abandon her pursuit because her magic was depleted - thats wahy she attacked Rack - to absorbe his magic. From the other hand magic in season 6 is pretty inconsistent with rest of the show - for exemple, never before or after magic was used as allegory of drugs etc.

Her power was almost depleted after summoning the God Osiris and then hitting him with a magic scream that both hurt him and sent him away. Then she absorbed all the knowledge for spells out of every book in the magic shop. Then she healed Buffy at the hospital. Magically holding Buffy, And Xander as she used super strength to crush the warrenbot and teleporting away. Then using magic found warren. Heals from an axe to her spine, stops all of his magic protection he got from Rack, and has the earth attack him. Then with a single word brought back the ghost of warens dead ex gf. Then she magically sealed his mouth shut as she tortured him with the bullet that killed Tara. Then she skinned him alive with a gesture and then disintegrated his body with a thought (until later retconned to amy magically bringing him back to life) and teleported away. Arrives at the jail and telekinetically takes out the cops and a concrete wall. Takes out a vengeance demon with a magic blast, and THEN she was ALMOST depleted after taking over an 18-wheeler .

Before or after? There were two witches introduced from before. One was killed that same episode, and the other written off a couple of cameos. And willow only dabbled with magic. And since when have allegories been used to show inconsistencies? Thats like saying the cover to Avengers Academy 29 is an inconistancy because the headquarters wont actually be a concentration camp.

OK, I understand what you meant - she did all those things without stealing magic from other people. Point taken. :) Hoever after that Willow indeed stole magic from both Rack and Giles, and that's what I meant when I said that she used stolen magic. But you are right, she was mostly using her own magic during season 6 finale. What I meant by inconsistencies... I meant that never before magic was shown to be addictive and they never said that it can be depleted, quite the contrary in season 7 Giles said that everything is connected etc. so I don't thing that magic user should ever run out of magic, there shouldn't be any problems with replenishing magic, since magic is supposedly everywhere, and it's connected to everything. So it's even better for Willow. Witches? We saw Amy's mother, Amy herself and Tara. That's tree not two ;) besides Willow herself of course.

I don't think you do understand what i meant. When willow absorbs the magic from someone else, she doesn't borrow it. Borrow implies its temporary or going to be returned. Borrow implies that she cant do the feats again without taking the same magic from the same sources. When she absorbs magic it becomes hers.

Giles: Everything's connected. You're connected to a great power, whether you feel it or not.

Willow: Well you should just take it from me.

Giles: You know we can't. This isn't a hobby or an addiction. It's inside you now, this magic. You're responsible for it.

Also i was just saying willow did all those feats on her own power (which is ture). You stated she got tired from just doing the truck feat. She was doing powerful magics all day and night.

When tara was introudeced she was the very first person to bring up that magic was addictive. So using it's two, not three. And as i said before magic was talked about rarely from a witches POV and it was never discussed if it was addictive or not. It was barely discussed at all. So it isn't an inconsistency, it's a revelation. And magic is still treated as addictive in season 7.

Borrow? When I said that she borrowed anything? I said that she stole magic from people. And that is true. And yes, yes this is quote I was talking about: Giles said that everything is connected - so Willow shouldn't just run out of magic, because she is constantly conected to greater power. Also he said that magic is no addiction. Pretty contradictory to magic in season 6, don't you think? maybe it is a retcon, or maybe it is just next level of Willow's initiation to word of magic? And yes, I said that Willow runned out of magic, when she was in pursuit of Buffy&CO but I didn't said what happened before that - my bad. Magic as addiction in season 7? When?

#49 Posted by Charmix (11838 posts) - - Show Bio

@Picard said:

Borrow? When I said that she borrowed anything? I said that she stole magic from people. And that is true. And yes, yes this is quote I was talking about: Giles said that everything is connected - so Willow shouldn't just run out of magic, because she is constantly conected to greater power. Also he said that magic is no addiction. Pretty contradictory to magic in season 6, don't you think? maybe it is a retcon, or maybe it is just next level of Willow's initiation to word of magic? And yes, I said that Willow runned out of magic, when she was in pursuit of Buffy&CO but I didn't said what happened before that - my bad. Magic as addiction in season 7? When?

I don't remember them addressing it as an addiction, I could be wrong, but she seldom used magic because of what happened during season 6. So I'm guessing she was taking measures.

#50 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Job said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@Job said:

Why are people saying comic version willow loses, but dark willow wins? Comic version willow is more powerful than Dark willow. Also why do people who dont know the character ask whats she can do before casting a vote?

Willow can absorb magic, and magical attacks to make herself more powerful or simply steal your magic. She has reality warped with a flick of her wrist (before becoming all powerful). Shes hurt gods with a scream. After failing to do a spell in latin she told the Gods that she's in charge before ripping the life force out of her friends and doing the spell with her own magic. She can astral project, and kill with a thought. And why are people saying she uses bowered magic when it was confirmed in season 7 that the magic is inside of her? And even if it wasnt how does this even matter?

Dark Willow ran off of borrowed magic in season 6

No she didnt

She didn't run on her own magic either, as Dark Willow she kept needing "pick me ups" and kept taking others magic.