Raven vs Phoenix

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/the-phoenix-vs-raven/16436/?page=last#reply_form

Phoenix

Based on feats Phoenix will overpower Raven...

Raven, just barely

The Girl who can solo the whole DCU wins.

@YoungJustice: Neither one of them can do that

@YoungJustice: Yeah, Raven has never solo'd the DCU.

Raven can. I can make a valid debate that she could defeat them. In under a day.

@YoungJustice: Shoot,

by which i mean i want to hear it.

@YoungJustice said:

Raven can. I can make a valid debate that she could defeat them. In under a day.

The featless Raven can not solo the DC universe. I can promise you that.

I will create a thread tommorow.

Phoenix. The feats and history of the Phoenix prove to be more impressive than Raven's, for example her planet absorbing feats.

@YoungJustice said:

I will create a thread tommorow.

Cool, I'm looking forward to it. I don't know a whole lot about Raven outside of the Teen Titans cartoon so I'm interested to see it.

Phoenix is omnipotent, isnt she?

@YoungJustice: SEND ME A PM W/ THE LINK

@blackadamFTW said:

@YoungJustice said:

Raven can. I can make a valid debate that she could defeat them. In under a day.

The featless Raven can not solo the DC universe. I can promise you that.

^

What is she gonna do? Soul self 3 people then pass out?

Phoenix with ease.

Raven could only win if she's in her Trigon empowered state, otherwise Phoenix takes this.

Phoenix would still defeat her no matter the conditions even in Trigon state.

Can you link it?

@mazeraiii: At her full potential she would win, but she almost always holds back because her power is too destructive. Phoenix isn't invincible and has lost fights before.

@stryzzar: No. Phoenix always holds back and no she hasn't lost a fight. She lost against xorn after the Phoenix Force limited her power. She was easily able to deal with Galactus so you think raven can beat galactus? Galactus at 1% beats supes.

Phoenix

@njones5: Yes I know she has quite a few very impressive, even godly feats. But she is not invulnerable, she has died a few times.

My point about the holding back thing is, if she fights at a full potential she could destroy the world with ease. Unless this is morals off she would never resort to that much power. She was trained specifically to hold back her power to prevent too much collateral damage.

Also, I said regular Raven wouldn't stand a chance against Phoenix. But Trigon empowered Raven is a whole different story. Trigon would have the power to challenge Galactus.

That's a whole different battle which will draw a long line of arguments. Let's leave that out for now.

Pheonix.stomp.

full powered raven as in possessed by trigon / white raven is at least an universal threat. more so if we consider trigon is said to be on par with the spectre

she cant do much in base tho

I know of no version of raven that stands the slightest chance against phoenix. Can someone educate me possibly?

@jpdag05:

Trigon possessed raven would probably destroy pheonix little effort.

Not only can she pretty much instantly render pheonix emotionless AND still along with unable to use her powers via magical power transferal like she did to kid devil, she has also been able to bring back people from the dead (jericho), rapidly cool heated objects using soul self for example what she did to bomb shell, Interdimensional teleportation, and can even transform people into sins.

and if you make her mad enough then there's this.

Now of raven just wanted to blitz and be done with pheonix, then White raven could not only sense her from several states away but completely screw up her mind without even being too close to her using her soul self like she did to brother blood.

Even standard Jean would stomp Raven, this is a mismatch.

Unless Trigon is taking his little princess' place, the Phoenix slaughters. And should be locked.

I'm an unapolagetic Raven fanboy, and yet still cannot believe people would think there's a legit case for Rae to be made.

Standard? No. Unbound? Probably. Green or Dark Phoenix? Stomp. Current Jean a.k.a White Phoenix? Ridiculous mismatch, godstomp.

@theenlightenedone: Sorry, none of this puts her anywhere near the phoenix as far as I can tell. Matching galactus, consuming a star, etc. seem to put her in a completely different league.

Phoenix stomps. Standard Jean would lose.

people seem to forget its been said that raven using her soul self could wipe out or destroy earth if she wanted to and when ravens in her evil form they have to kill her i order to stop her.

Anyone that says raven is a smelly head

Raven

Phoenix.

Dark Phoenix destroys Raven.

Phoenix and it's not close.

Regular Raven, who holds back a lot, might lose against Phoenix, but she is superior to regular Jean.

However Raven with morals off and if she let loose and fully tapping to the peak of powers will wreck and beat Phoenix to the hell and back, properly and figuratively.

Destroying a planet is literally a miniscule feat compared to Phoenix.

LOL nah. The only way Raven can win this is if she has Trigon or Azarath amplifying her to endless degrees. Standard Raven dies horribly to Phoenix.

While its true that she absorbed and was amped by the souls of Azarath to obliterate Trigon (who somehow survived however, as he shows up later), but Trigon looks to me well more powerful than Phoenix. I also don't think she actually needs Trigon to amplify her powers, she have similar kind of powers, is just that she may fell under Trigon's influence if she tap in them too much. Or she can safely use them without that worry only if somehow Trigon influence was cleansed from her

Here is she going evil and using her own darker powers, without to be empowered or directly controlled by Trigon.

http://i.imgur.com/Ntorz4h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DND99ks.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/iBLVRP6.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111288614/5538252-0581850892-bVLwC.jpg

Trigon was only at a tenth of his usual power level, but that was still enough to destroy Raven, her world and the universe. Later Raven mind manipulated her brothers, without they realize that, to get that power from Trigon, and she closed the portal blocking him in his dimension, as she correctly considered him much more dangerous, devious and intelligent compared with her brothers.

And after that she easily oneshotted her brothers, despite they had that universe busting power from Trigon on top of their already great powers. Not just that Raven didn't wanted that Trigon power for herself, but she started to take her brothers powers and put them in the Titans to transform them in her evil companions and servants to rule the main DC realm at her side, which she didn't had any doubts she will take and rule.

Which mean that the statements that Raven can destroy the universe and more are confirmed once again. Because she doesn't bother to grab something more from Trigon or her brothers, and neither is afraid that her fellow Titans could rebel or overpower her once she gave them those powers.

Even that powers transfer is an incredible feat of magic and energies manipulation, and I don't think is needed to go now to other examples. I am curious however to see what can put Phoenix above these, in which context and such

Jean

@totu: While its true that she absorbed and was amped by the souls of Azarath to obliterate Trigon (who somehow survived however, as he shows up later), but Trigon looks to me well more powerful than Phoenix.

Indeed, Trigon is more powerful than Phoenix, but that in no way makes Raven capable of contending with, let alone beating Phoenix. As you yourself made it clear, Trigon can one-shot Raven and her entire universe with one tenth of his power, so Raven is literally an ant compared to him. Trigon being better than the Phoenix means nothing when he's astronomically better than Raven as well.

I also don't think she actually needs Trigon to amplify her powers, she have similar kind of powers, is just that she may fell under Trigon's influence if she tap in them too much. Or she can safely use them without that worry only if somehow Trigon influence was cleansed from her

Her powers are similar to Trigon's, but they are on a far less titanic scale, much like how Fate has all the powers of Nabu just not as strong. Trigon is astronomically more powerful than Raven.

Here is she going evil and using her own darker powers, without to be empowered or directly controlled by Trigon.

http://i.imgur.com/Ntorz4h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DND99ks.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/iBLVRP6.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111288614/5538252-0581850892-bVLwC.jpg

And none of that proves anything.

Trigon was only at a tenth of his usual power level, but that was still enough to destroy Raven, her world and the universe. Later Raven mind manipulated her brothers, without they realize that, to get that power from Trigon, and she closed the portal blocking him in his dimension, as she correctly considered him much more dangerous, devious and intelligent compared with her brothers.

That's nice.

And after that she easily oneshotted her brothers, despite they had that universe busting power from Trigon on top of their already great powers. Not just that Raven didn't wanted that Trigon power for herself, but she started to take her brothers powers and put them in the Titans to transform them in her evil companions and servants to rule the main DC realm at her side, which she didn't had any doubts she will take and rule.

Which mean that the statements that Raven can destroy the universe and more are confirmed once again.

I'm sorry... What? Since when are Raven's brothers universe busters? They were challenged by the likes of Wally West, Donna Troy, Starfire and freaking Robin... They are in no way universal. They sapped Trigon of his power, sure, but by how much? Enough to weaken him and close the portal between two dimensions, but not enough to actually destroy a universe, especially with so little evidence to support that notion.

I hesitate to put Raven incapacitating her siblings at even above planetary range, nevermind universal.

Because she doesn't bother to grab something more from Trigon or her brothers, and neither is afraid that her fellow Titans could rebel or overpower her once she gave them those powers.

Even that powers transfer is an incredible feat of magic and energies manipulation, and I don't think is needed to go now to other examples.

She can transfer power... That's nice. It means nothing compared to the Phoenix, who can similarly transfer power and life essence from multiple beings into one.

I am curious however to see what can put Phoenix above these, in which context and such

Having just as many statements of being universal in power as Trigon, having far better feats, performing tasks that Raven would be hard-pressed or even incapable of replicating, etc.

Phoenix

@totu: Trigon can destroy those, isn't said he oneshot, and I can't see from where do you reach the conclusion that Raven is an ant to him? She clearly didn't feel the need to absorb his power from her brothers, which means she already had more than that 10% he had. Is he more powerful than her? Very possible. Is he astronomically better? Nope, that's not appear to be even implied

You're kidding me, right? Trigon, who barely had access to our dimension and was thus massively hindered, one-shotted Raven, leaving her incapacitated in Wally West's room:

Gallery

Her power was also nothing compared to his:

Raven didn't even join her brothers when they absorbed Trigon's power. Right after the panel where they absorbed his power you see Raven still with the Teen Titans. Which means she wasn't given an oppertunity to absorb his power, otherwise she would have.

For a fan of Raven, you seem to have a poor track record of actually reading the comics she's featured in and discovering their context.

How do you know that? She never used them at full potential, and by statements she is beyond universal?

She's yet to reach her full potential, so I fail to see how this matters. The statements are hyperbolic and extremely fallible. I'd take quantifiable feats over a subjective narrative any day, especially when the only one that's "beyond universal" in statements is Trigon, who would stomp Raven.

From what its said there, they had taken "Trigon's power", meaning that 10% capable to destroy the universe. They had also trashed the Titans all over the place, wasn't any real fight (especially when they get in their dimension. The portal was opened by Raven (and Beast Boy, something with some Trigon seed left inside him, iirc) and she manipulated her brothers to take Trigon's power, than she closed the portal, blocking him on the other side

There was a solid fight, honestly. Starfire damaged Envy, who couldn't even handle Barry Allen's speed top speed, Wrath was outsmarted and damaged by Nightwing, Lust could only cause Donna and Wally to briefly fight, etc.

What? It means nothing compared to Phoenix, who actually do the same thing? Aren't you contradicting yourself here a bit, or you imply that what Phoenix do is also means nothing much?

If the Phoenix can do it, then it means nothing as an advantage, since she can replicate Raven's feat.

So, how those Phoenix statements are superior to Raven's ones, who goes from "can destroy the universe and more" to "I can do anything I wish with this power" (including killing Trigon in a gruesome way, in new 52 iirc)?

Because she can also "destroy the universe and more" and draws power from "an endless/infinite source". Also, the "I can do anything with this power" is horrifically hyperbolic and untrue, unless you believe Raven is (nigh)omnipotent in which case I'm not going to waste my time debating you.

And what are those feats you talk about, can I see some scans to make an idea? Cause I have some more from Raven and her brothers (the new ones, after that retconning)

I'm well aware of what both Raven and her brothers are capable of... Not much compared to the Phoenix.

@wollfmyth209@outside_85: Why is this bloody thread opened again? Raven cannot beat Phoenix unless she reaches her full potential. Indeed, do I think Raven and Jean are quite similar (yes), but as of now, Raven cannot beat her. Why does everyone use this?"( it's non-cannon)

P.s I will say Raven directly fought Trigon at one point, and outside-85 touched upon that. Having said that Raven fights trigon daily, but doesn't apply it unless were talking her taking about her feats which were

1. Taking out Darkseid

2. Taking out the Titans

3. Putting JLA in stasis

4. Putting Superman in stasis / almost killing him ( who resisted Lady Blaze, and Neron)

5. One-shotting her brothers

6 One shotting Orion

7. Taking out Rhea the Titan

Raven, in potential, would be a hell of an overpowered character .... she would surpass her father if need be. Raven herself said he power could be universal or more, and could easily destroy heaven hell, stars, etc.