#351 Posted by SuperboyRob (138 posts) - - Show Bio

if the two of them just met and decide they were gonna fight jean would win she would quick scan ravens mind to know her powers and the range she is willing to go to then take her out quickly. Jean could also split her mind like she did xaviers in new x-men. If jean doesn't take her out fast raven stands a chance, but since jean is the true host of the phoenix she is one with the life of the universe and even without the phoenix force present there might be a light like what solstice has that could screw around with raven and through her off her edge. I personally see it going to jean the majority of the time but it's not impossible for raven to win either
#352 Posted by VictoriaGrey_2010 (337 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85:
@Roddy010: 

Ok, perhaps I shouldn’t give examples anymore, lol

But what I am trying to say is basically along the same lines. Correct me if I am mistaken, but you yourself stated Roddy010 that Empathy's "Powerbase"(I suppose you could call it) is emotion right?

And where and how is Emotion created? In the mind, correct? And the mind is the "Powerbase" of Telepathy.

My examples of the snakes were in a way trying to say that, in a very twisted way. See, the Garden Snake is just a small snake, but an Anaconda is far larger and stronger. It is like the King of the snakes, it is number one, get my drift? :) An Anaconda can do everything that a Garden Snake can do and far more, just like Telepathy can do everything that Empathy can do and far more, because it controls the WHOLE mind, not just emotions. That is what I was trying to say, lol, the snake example was shitty, lol, sorry guys.

#353 Edited by VictoriaGrey_2010 (337 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumans said:

"

                   


I think people are taking some writers inability to seperate the two as gospel, they are two very different powers by nature and definition, by their natures and definition an empath cannot do whatever a telepath can do and any instance of it is just a writer not understanding the power at hand, the same way a psi blast from a telepath back in the 70s could generate concussive force simply because one writer didn't differentiate between a telepathic psi blast and telekinetic psi blast, all they saw was psi blast.  Telepaths can control emotions and the body the same way an empath can, the same parts of the brain that emotional stimuli can trigger can be controlled by a telepath, on the other hand, an empath can make you afraid and possibly even push you to hallucenate due to it, a telepath can make you afraid and bring that fear to life right in front of your eyes and the eyes of others if they want them to see it.  Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different, a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror.


 


@Roddy010thanks for the comment very much appreciated.



                   

                "


That is not necessarily true, an omega leveled mutant like Jean Grey who has enough experience with the human mind would have no problem going into the mind of every single human  and making their worst nightmare come to life in a blink of an eye. I mean Charles Xavier who is a far weaker telepath compared to Jean Grey could kill every human in the world when connected to cerebro if he were to focus hard enough. Jean Grey who is far more powerful, I am sure would be able to use her power and take it up a notch. Instead of killing them, she would just have to focus a little more and make them see what she wants them to see. A crowd as you used for your example I am sure would be no problem.  In the end, it comes down to how powerful the telepath is.

#354 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio
@VictoriaGrey_2010 said:
"@LordOfAllHumans said:

"

                   


I think people are taking some writers inability to seperate the two as gospel, they are two very different powers by nature and definition, by their natures and definition an empath cannot do whatever a telepath can do and any instance of it is just a writer not understanding the power at hand, the same way a psi blast from a telepath back in the 70s could generate concussive force simply because one writer didn't differentiate between a telepathic psi blast and telekinetic psi blast, all they saw was psi blast.  Telepaths can control emotions and the body the same way an empath can, the same parts of the brain that emotional stimuli can trigger can be controlled by a telepath, on the other hand, an empath can make you afraid and possibly even push you to hallucenate due to it, a telepath can make you afraid and bring that fear to life right in front of your eyes and the eyes of others if they want them to see it.  Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different, a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror.


 


@Roddy010thanks for the comment very much appreciated.



                   

                "


That is not necessarily true, an omega leveled mutant like Jean Grey who has enough experience with the human mind would have no problem going into the mind of every single human  and making their worst nightmare come to life in a blink of an eye. I mean Charles Xavier who is a far weaker telepath compared to Jean Grey could kill every human in the world when connected to cerebro if he were to focus hard enough. Jean Grey who is far more powerful, I am sure would be able to use her power and take it up a notch. Instead of killing them, she would just have to focus a little more and make them see what she wants them to see. A crowd as you used for your example I am sure would be no problem.  In the end, it comes down to how powerful the telepath is.

"

what are you talking about?  My post is only used to show the differences of telepathy and empathy and how anything an empath can do a telepath can do and go a step further, I use a crowd not to show a limit in telepathy and how it can individually affect minds, but how both powers would work on a crowd, a telepath would have far more control over the crowd than an empath, and even in a crowd a telepath would have to project this image into each mind, it's a matter of range not power and not really relevant, as telepaths can also create telepathic projections that any within their range will perceived, the way Chamber "speaks" and anybody that would be in earshot would hear his telepathic voice, yet it is still being projected into each individual mind, like sound is transferred to each ear it is heard by.  It's to show that an empath can only project the fear and the mind would respond and cause the person to believe what they fear is upon them, a telepath can project fear, use a persons worst nightmare or use a general image that would frighten most and not even have to be bothered if the person had no fear in particular, everything on fire would pretty much make everybody run, or the simple command "run".  Your post hasn't touched on anything I haven't mentioned, I fail to see what is not necessarily true, seems like you just wanted to say Jean is more powerful than Xavier.
#355 Edited by VictoriaGrey_2010 (337 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans:

You stated: " Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different, a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror."  

 

You said that Empathy will make everyone's fears come to life and that everyone will see something different, the thing that every single individual fears most. In so many words you said that Telepathy couldn't do that. That they could only create a hallucination that everyone will see and fear, such as a fire (your example). You may have stated that telepathy could do everything that empathy could do, but the only difference you tried to portray is that telepathy couldn’t use the element of fear like empathy could. Excuse me for saying so, but it almost sounded like you were implying that empathy could do something than telepathy can't. I mean if I were to just randomly hear that empathy could make eceryone's biggest fears come to life and that telepathy could only make an hallucination such as a fire, I would think empathy is far stronger when in reality, that is not true. Telepathy can make every single person see something different like Empathy can, you are saying otherwise. Also, I used Charles Xavier because he was a perfect example, I could have used Emma Frost or any other telepath that has used cerebro, but I simply decided to use Charles, there was no reason behind it. So yet again you are mistaken …    

#356 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio
@VictoriaGrey_2010 said:
"

@LordOfAllHumans:

You stated: " Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different, a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror."  

 

You said that Empathy will make everyone's fears come to life and that everyone will see something different, the thing that every single individual fears most. In so many words you said that Telepathy couldn't do that. That they could only create a hallucination that everyone will see and fear, such as a fire (your example). You may have stated that telepathy could do everything that empathy could do, but the only difference you tried to portray is that telepathy couldn’t use the element of fear like empathy could. Excuse me for saying so, but it almost sounded like you were implying that empathy could do something than telepathy can't. I mean if I were to just randomly hear that empathy could make eceryone's biggest fears come to life and that telepathy could only make an hallucination such as a fire, I would think empathy is far stronger when in reality, that is not true. Telepathy can make every single person see something different like Empathy can, you are saying otherwise. Also, I used Charles Xavier because he was a perfect example, I could have used Emma Frost or any other telepath that has used cerebro, but I simply decided to use Charles, there was no reason behind it. So yet again you are mistaken …    

"
No that is not what I said, Never once said empaths can make fears come to life, I said that is something a telepath can do.  because an empath can't see your fears you would only feel it and since different people are afraid of different things that fear will most like feel like what ever it is they are afraid of, if the empath is powerful enough people may see things but that does not mean the empath can control the images.  I said that telepaths can control emotions just as easy.I said that telepathy does not have to use such a general tactic and can just project whatever they want to induce mass fear, or use the same tactic as an empath.  A telepath doesn't have to make everybody see something different though, we are discussing versatility not power or range, an empath has to because he/she will not know what causes the fear only that it is present,read all of the posts I clearly state earlier in the topic a telepath can do anything a empath can do but that an empath cannot do everything a telepath, had you paid attention to that you would know whatever I post about an empath is also attributed to a telepath, so there is no need for me to state it, the part that you underlined about telepathy is to show that an empath can't do what a telepath can.
#357 Posted by BlackDove (375 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_oraculous016: Zoom is correct. That first scan is the Time Trapper. My mistake. But I do hope you realize that Raven has the ability and skill to erase and implant thoughts and emotions into others as well as remove them.

 

That scan you provided is very useful. But is that the Phoenix Raptor being shown in the last scan?

#358 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@BlackDove said:

@lord_oraculous016: Zoom is correct.

Surprise!   Oh wait.  No it isn't.  ;)
#359 Edited by BlackDove (375 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom: Somehow I knew you would see this :)
#360 Posted by silverr (50 posts) - - Show Bio
jean grey wasn't a omega level mutant in the original x-men, the phoenix wasn't part of her mutation, so this damned unlimited potential or omega level mutant argument shouldn't be used.
 
The winner would be the faster, raven can make she lose her will to fight, and jean can use telepathy on her, altough I think everyone is forgeting Jean Grey is a telekinetic, and she uses telekinesis more than she uses telepathy.
#361 Posted by Black_Kn1ght (270 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the toughest battle to decide.

#362 Posted by BMEZY (1210 posts) - - Show Bio
@silverr
you can't just assume that jean will use telekinesis instead of telepathy... they both work at the speed of thought; you do realize that empathy is technically a subset of telepathy, the signals and receptors that triggers human emotions take place in the brain... something a telepath can successfully replicate.. i'm not saying that if jean tried, she would be as good as raven because obviously raven is more atuned with this ability, but empathy is not beyond the capabilities of a powerful telepath like jean, if you really think about it :)
#363 Posted by sandiego008 (3283 posts) - - Show Bio

No offense Original poster but this thread is almost pointless as 90% of responders don't read what the circumstances are ... thus they think jean = phoenix which she isn't.  60% of the votes on who wins don't count at all.  Sad but people don't read the battle notes here for whatever reason.  
 
Not saying jean loses just making a note of people that don't read is strong here.

#364 Edited by TheWaterPhoenix (2 posts) - - Show Bio

#365 Posted by Outside_85 (8749 posts) - - Show Bio
@VictoriaGrey_2010: Well, I see we are pretty much back in the argument about what is generally more powerful, empathy or telepathy. It a well groomed subject by now but its still up for debate whats better. I've tried making comparisons between them before and i can try again :). 
One could see empathy as a baser/different form of telepathy thats a sub-category of the big tree we can call psionics or mental powers. 
 
Like empathy has been seen doing:
-reading of the emotions of others (the empath might not be able to read exact thoughts like a mind-reader, but they can make accurate guesses, like noticing nervousness is spiking might indicate someone is lying)
-controlling emotions of self and others (ranging from inducing certain emotions or dulling others to full blown mind control, not like telepathy, but the empath can control others by making them want to do things).
-Raven's unique empathy allows her to heals others as a part of her empathy.
 
Telepathy:
-mind reading and communication (its almost universal that all telepaths can read the thoughts of others, the more powerful kind can communicate with it)
-mind alteration (including erasing memories or supressing parts of another mind)
-mind control (difficulty depends on the telepath and the target)
-psi-bolts
 
Feel free to add more to the ability tree :)
#366 Posted by VictoriaGrey_2010 (337 posts) - - Show Bio

Where are emotions formed Outside_85? They are formed and generated from the mind, which is the playing ground for Jean Grey. Raven doesn't stand a chance.

#367 Posted by EpitomeofCool (2779 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheWaterPhoenix said:

waaa? lmao...

#368 Posted by termiteone4ever (7219 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven . Even in the none cannon cross over she has the dark Phoenix they said they are the same. Now as regular Jean what is she going to do .

#369 Posted by Outside_85 (8749 posts) - - Show Bio

@VictoriaGrey_2010: Pretty sure you need willpower to activate telepathy...oh and Raven decides if Jean has any.

#370 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

#371 Posted by The Stegman (24043 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a tough one..but i'm leaning toward Raven if Jean doesn't have Phoenix

Online
#372 Posted by zhunter (6 posts) - - Show Bio

This whole threat was a LOL. Good times.

#373 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean.

#374 Posted by Jezer (3129 posts) - - Show Bio

@VictoriaGrey_2010 said:

Where are emotions formed Outside_85? They are formed and generated from the mind, which is the playing ground for Jean Grey. Raven doesn't stand a chance.

Incorrect. Emotions come from the body and brain, not strictly the mind which is your consciousness.

Scientists have shown that you can actually trick yourself into being happy by smiling, because the facial muscles send feedback to your brain that the emotion is occuring, since those facial muscles correspond with that emotion. So your brain's like "I must be happy, then. *shrug*"

Facial expressions influence mood. Neurotransmitters. There are all sorts of physical reactions in your body that correspond with, and help form, emotions.

And, I believe your mind/consciousness is different from your actual brain. So, I'd disagree with your posts.

#375 Edited by VictoriaGrey_2010 (337 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't it funny that your whole argument did nothing but prove my point all the more. Though you are correct in the sense of emotions being formed in places other than the brain, but without the brain, emotions can’t exist. Granted, I should have chosen my word choice a bit better, rather than using the word “mind” I use the word “brain”  There are many ways that emotions can be created, but they all have one thing in common, they need the brain in order to become an emotion.

#376 Posted by Outside_85 (8749 posts) - - Show Bio

@VictoriaGrey_2010: Same way you need the willpower to actually do anything with your mind.

#377 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean Grey

#378 Posted by kiyava (60 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate?

#379 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

#380 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5242 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

#381 Posted by BMEZY (1210 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

#382 Posted by society619 (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

#383 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean Grey.

#384 Posted by mrtrickster (2307 posts) - - Show Bio

lol raven easily
soul self tears jean apart like tissue paper

#385 Edited by TheBigG (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@zoom:

your credibility IMO was shot the minute you tried to argue that jean was not a strong telepath (wtf?), and you then followed it by trying to argue that professor C. Xavier is a low level telepath (what the actual fuck?). It is apparent that you have no idea what Jean is capable of and certainly do not have any understanding of her or honestly the X-men franchise overall. Jean is considered one of the most powerful telepaths if not the most powerful telepath in the Marvel Universe, and professor X is regarded with the same level prowess.

IMO Jean is more than capable of defeating raven (in several different ways) before raven can tap into her soul and/or dark magic abilities.

Jean for the win...

#386 Posted by dondave (36658 posts) - - Show Bio
#387 Posted by njones5 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@brainiac_1_0:

you cant do that your making this battle really unfair i mean phoenix is apart of jean they cannot be seperated there connected duh!! i mean they both transform but your just going to take one away this battle is to make raven win

#388 Posted by teengenius94 (20 posts) - - Show Bio

@octagon_freak: @octagon_freak: there was an episode when beast boy and cyborg went into ravens mind and almost died so yea ravens mind shall not be messed with and oh raven can lift heavy things without a struggle jeancant lift juggernaut

#389 Posted by DarkRaiden (6994 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to give it to Raven. At her best, she'll start Intangible, (which should counter Telekinesis), she definitely has mental shields both as a telepath/empath and as a demon (plus her soul self), so It'll take Jean some time and effort to get past her defenses. In that time, Raven can send her to hell or drain her emotions.

#390 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@teengenius94: Jean could lift Juggernaut she couldn't hold him in place because of his magic momentum and that was when she was a teenager. She has lifted 50 tons of debris, a jumbo jet and Avalon, all of which weigh several times more than Juggernaut and you are using an example of two non-telepaths against animated Raven. This is not animated Raven anyway.

I have to give it to Raven. At her best, she'll start Intangible, (which should counter Telekinesis), she definitely has mental shields both as a telepath/empath and as a demon (plus her soul self), so It'll take Jean some time and effort to get past her defenses. In that time, Raven can send her to hell or drain her emotions.

That's Jean using tk on a phantom, and easily breaking through all manner of psi defense including that of an "immune" telepath and a horde of demons. Not to mention telepathy still works on intangible beings. And no she is not using the Phoenix Force only it's imagery, which she manifests to show that she is not holding back and tapping her full mutant power.

#391 Posted by dondave (36658 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven

#392 Posted by Yokergeist (12355 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven because she's hot.

#393 Posted by Diamondlifer1 (128 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean ftw

She's an omega level mutant her tk and tp are omega level

#394 Edited by russellmania77 (15042 posts) - - Show Bio

@zoom said:

Soul self, baby.

80s Raven packed some major power.

There's nothing Jean can throw at it that can knock it down and Jean really really doesn't want to get in Raven's head.

this

#395 Posted by ThatChicLaura (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@zoom: Xavier isn't a stronger telepath. Both Emma Frost and Xavier stated that she is the strongest telepath. It has been mentioned numerous times that she has unlimited potential. Also she has reached feats that were known as telepathically impossible.

#396 Posted by greenteaforme (1826 posts) - - Show Bio

@zoom said:

Soul self, baby.

80s Raven packed some major power.

There's nothing Jean can throw at it that can knock it down and Jean really really doesn't want to get in Raven's head.

this

What's stopping Jean from using TK to atomize Raven?

#398 Posted by Extremos (72 posts) - - Show Bio

I forgot where i read this, but Raven was at the "same level" when Jean had the Phoenix. Normal Jean doesn't stand a chance ...

#399 Posted by Your_Friendly_Azn (313 posts) - - Show Bio

Reading this whole post melted my brain. Some people are just really ignorant:| and most have bad grammar:|

#400 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremos said:

I forgot where i read this, but Raven was at the "same level" when Jean had the Phoenix. Normal Jean doesn't stand a chance ...

You probably read it here or someplace else where quotes are taken out of context or where context is just completely ignored. It was based on a comment made in a non-canon crossover where a being that was not actually the Dark Phoenix but something made from the Xmens memories of Dark Phoenix says that Raven is tainted by an evil that rivals her own, not power. This goes directly to Ravens dark nature as a demon hybrid thus having a great potential for evil much like the Dark Phoenix had. There is absolutely nothing in all the realms that shows Raven having even as much psi power as a Jean Grey tapping her full power let alone Phoenix/Jean. Jean tapping her full power begins to approach Phoenix level powers, as Xavier said before she dies in the Sun and actually becomes Phoenix, the potential she was accessing has reserves of power on a cosmic scale, this all while she was just omega level mutant Jean Grey, at this point like she told Wolverine the Phoenix was only speaking to her, not giving her power.

The only way Raven can win is BFR and that's if Jean doesn't shut her mind off or rip her to shreds first. I was also under the impression that she needs her soul self to actually teleport things? With her soul self being basically an astral projection it would be vulnerable to Jean telepathic attacks.

Jean wins.