Raven vs Jean Grey

@Outside_85:
@Roddy010: 

Ok, perhaps I shouldn’t give examples anymore, lol

But what I am trying to say is basically along the same lines. Correct me if I am mistaken, but you yourself stated Roddy010 that Empathy's "Powerbase"(I suppose you could call it) is emotion right?

And where and how is Emotion created? In the mind, correct? And the mind is the "Powerbase" of Telepathy.

My examples of the snakes were in a way trying to say that, in a very twisted way. See, the Garden Snake is just a small snake, but an Anaconda is far larger and stronger. It is like the King of the snakes, it is number one, get my drift? :) An Anaconda can do everything that a Garden Snake can do and far more, just like Telepathy can do everything that Empathy can do and far more, because it controls the WHOLE mind, not just emotions. That is what I was trying to say, lol, the snake example was shitty, lol, sorry guys.

"

                   

I think people are taking some writers inability to seperate the two as gospel, they are two very different powers by nature and definition, by their natures and definition an empath cannot do whatever a telepath can do and any instance of it is just a writer not understanding the power at hand, the same way a psi blast from a telepath back in the 70s could generate concussive force simply because one writer didn't differentiate between a telepathic psi blast and telekinetic psi blast, all they saw was psi blast.  Telepaths can control emotions and the body the same way an empath can, the same parts of the brain that emotional stimuli can trigger can be controlled by a telepath, on the other hand, an empath can make you afraid and possibly even push you to hallucenate due to it, a telepath can make you afraid and bring that fear to life right in front of your eyes and the eyes of others if they want them to see it.  Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different, a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror.

 

@Roddy010thanks for the comment very much appreciated.

                   

                "

That is not necessarily true, an omega leveled mutant like Jean Grey who has enough experience with the human mind would have no problem going into the mind of every single human  and making their worst nightmare come to life in a blink of an eye. I mean Charles Xavier who is a far weaker telepath compared to Jean Grey could kill every human in the world when connected to cerebro if he were to focus hard enough. Jean Grey who is far more powerful, I am sure would be able to use her power and take it up a notch. Instead of killing them, she would just have to focus a little more and make them see what she wants them to see. A crowd as you used for your example I am sure would be no problem.  In the end, it comes down to how powerful the telepath is.

"@LordOfAllHumans said:

"

                   

I think people are taking some writers inability to seperate the two as gospel, they are two very different powers by nature and definition, by their natures and definition an empath cannot do whatever a telepath can do and any instance of it is just a writer not understanding the power at hand, the same way a psi blast from a telepath back in the 70s could generate concussive force simply because one writer didn't differentiate between a telepathic psi blast and telekinetic psi blast, all they saw was psi blast.  Telepaths can control emotions and the body the same way an empath can, the same parts of the brain that emotional stimuli can trigger can be controlled by a telepath, on the other hand, an empath can make you afraid and possibly even push you to hallucenate due to it, a telepath can make you afraid and bring that fear to life right in front of your eyes and the eyes of others if they want them to see it.  Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different, a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror.

 

@Roddy010thanks for the comment very much appreciated.

                   

                "

That is not necessarily true, an omega leveled mutant like Jean Grey who has enough experience with the human mind would have no problem going into the mind of every single human  and making their worst nightmare come to life in a blink of an eye. I mean Charles Xavier who is a far weaker telepath compared to Jean Grey could kill every human in the world when connected to cerebro if he were to focus hard enough. Jean Grey who is far more powerful, I am sure would be able to use her power and take it up a notch. Instead of killing them, she would just have to focus a little more and make them see what she wants them to see. A crowd as you used for your example I am sure would be no problem.  In the end, it comes down to how powerful the telepath is.

"

@LordOfAllHumans:

You stated: " Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different,a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror."  

You said that Empathy will make everyone's fears come to life and that everyone will see something different, the thing that every single individual fears most. In so many words you said that Telepathy couldn't do that. That they could only create a hallucination that everyone will see and fear, such as a fire (your example). You may have stated that telepathy could do everything that empathy could do, but the only difference you tried to portray is that telepathy couldn’t use the element of fear like empathy could. Excuse me for saying so, but it almost sounded like you were implying that empathy could do something than telepathy can't. I mean if I were to just randomly hear that empathy could make eceryone's biggest fears come to life and that telepathy could only make an hallucination such as a fire, I would think empathy is far stronger when in reality, that is not true. Telepathy can make every single person see something different like Empathy can, you are saying otherwise. Also, I used Charles Xavier because he was a perfect example, I could have used Emma Frost or any other telepath that has used cerebro, but I simply decided to use Charles, there was no reason behind it. So yet again you are mistaken …    

"

@LordOfAllHumans:

You stated: " Example an empath wants to instill fear in a crowd and make them run away, everybody in that crowd will have a different fear that would make them run, an empath will only be able to create fear and if powerful enough can cause them to hallucenate but not necessarily control what they see, so everybody will experience something different,a telepath can just deduce that everybody will run if everything is on fire and create telepathic illusions of that in the minds of everybody and they will run in terror."  

 

You said that Empathy will make everyone's fears come to life and that everyone will see something different, the thing that every single individual fears most. In so many words you said that Telepathy couldn't do that. That they could only create a hallucination that everyone will see and fear, such as a fire (your example). You may have stated that telepathy could do everything that empathy could do, but the only difference you tried to portray is that telepathy couldn’t use the element of fear like empathy could. Excuse me for saying so, but it almost sounded like you were implying that empathy could do something than telepathy can't. I mean if I were to just randomly hear that empathy could make eceryone's biggest fears come to life and that telepathy could only make an hallucination such as a fire, I would think empathy is far stronger when in reality, that is not true. Telepathy can make every single person see something different like Empathy can, you are saying otherwise. Also, I used Charles Xavier because he was a perfect example, I could have used Emma Frost or any other telepath that has used cerebro, but I simply decided to use Charles, there was no reason behind it. So yet again you are mistaken …    

"

@lord_oraculous016: Zoom is correct. That first scan is the Time Trapper. My mistake. But I do hope you realize that Raven has the ability and skill to erase and implant thoughts and emotions into others as well as remove them.

That scan you provided is very useful. But is that the Phoenix Raptor being shown in the last scan?

@lord_oraculous016: Zoom is correct.

This is the toughest battle to decide.

No offense Original poster but this thread is almost pointless as 90% of responders don't read what the circumstances are ... thus they think jean = phoenix which she isn't.  60% of the votes on who wins don't count at all.  Sad but people don't read the battle notes here for whatever reason.  
 
Not saying jean loses just making a note of people that don't read is strong here.

Where are emotions formed Outside_85? They are formed and generated from the mind, which is the playing ground for Jean Grey. Raven doesn't stand a chance.

@TheWaterPhoenix said:

waaa? lmao...

Raven . Even in the none cannon cross over she has the dark Phoenix they said they are the same. Now as regular Jean what is she going to do .

@VictoriaGrey_2010: Pretty sure you need willpower to activate telepathy...oh and Raven decides if Jean has any.

Jean

This is a tough one..but i'm leaning toward Raven if Jean doesn't have Phoenix

This whole threat was a LOL. Good times.

Jean.

@VictoriaGrey_2010 said:

Where are emotions formed Outside_85? They are formed and generated from the mind, which is the playing ground for Jean Grey. Raven doesn't stand a chance.

Incorrect. Emotions come from the body and brain, not strictly the mind which is your consciousness.

Scientists have shown that you can actually trick yourself into being happy by smiling, because the facial muscles send feedback to your brain that the emotion is occuring, since those facial muscles correspond with that emotion. So your brain's like "I must be happy, then. *shrug*"

Facial expressions influence mood. Neurotransmitters. There are all sorts of physical reactions in your body that correspond with, and help form, emotions.

And, I believe your mind/consciousness is different from your actual brain. So, I'd disagree with your posts.

Isn't it funny that your whole argument did nothing but prove my point all the more. Though you are correct in the sense of emotions being formed in places other than the brain, but without the brain, emotions can’t exist. Granted, I should have chosen my word choice a bit better, rather than using the word “mind” I use the word “brain”  There are many ways that emotions can be created, but they all have one thing in common, they need the brain in order to become an emotion.

@VictoriaGrey_2010: Same way you need the willpower to actually do anything with your mind.

Jean Grey

Stalemate?

Jean

Jean

Jean

Jean

Jean Grey.

lol raven easily
soul self tears jean apart like tissue paper

@zoom:

your credibility IMO was shot the minute you tried to argue that jean was not a strong telepath (wtf?), and you then followed it by trying to argue that professor C. Xavier is a low level telepath (what the actual fuck?). It is apparent that you have no idea what Jean is capable of and certainly do not have any understanding of her or honestly the X-men franchise overall. Jean is considered one of the most powerful telepaths if not the most powerful telepath in the Marvel Universe, and professor X is regarded with the same level prowess.

IMO Jean is more than capable of defeating raven (in several different ways) before raven can tap into her soul and/or dark magic abilities.

Jean for the win...

@thebigg: No need to swear

@brainiac_1_0:

you cant do that your making this battle really unfair i mean phoenix is apart of jean they cannot be seperated there connected duh!! i mean they both transform but your just going to take one away this battle is to make raven win

@octagon_freak: @octagon_freak: there was an episode when beast boy and cyborg went into ravens mind and almost died so yea ravens mind shall not be messed with and oh raven can lift heavy things without a struggle jeancant lift juggernaut

I have to give it to Raven. At her best, she'll start Intangible, (which should counter Telekinesis), she definitely has mental shields both as a telepath/empath and as a demon (plus her soul self), so It'll take Jean some time and effort to get past her defenses. In that time, Raven can send her to hell or drain her emotions.

@teengenius94: Jean could lift Juggernaut she couldn't hold him in place because of his magic momentum and that was when she was a teenager. She has lifted 50 tons of debris, a jumbo jet and Avalon, all of which weigh several times more than Juggernaut and you are using an example of two non-telepaths against animated Raven. This is not animated Raven anyway.

That's Jean using tk on a phantom, and easily breaking through all manner of psi defense including that of an "immune" telepath and a horde of demons. Not to mention telepathy still works on intangible beings. And no she is not using the Phoenix Force only it's imagery, which she manifests to show that she is not holding back and tapping her full mutant power.

Raven

Raven because she's hot.

Jean ftw

She's an omega level mutant her tk and tp are omega level

this

@zoom: Xavier isn't a stronger telepath. Both Emma Frost and Xavier stated that she is the strongest telepath. It has been mentioned numerous times that she has unlimited potential. Also she has reached feats that were known as telepathically impossible.

What's stopping Jean from using TK to atomize Raven?

I forgot where i read this, but Raven was at the "same level" when Jean had the Phoenix. Normal Jean doesn't stand a chance ...

Reading this whole post melted my brain. Some people are just really ignorant:| and most have bad grammar:|

You probably read it here or someplace else where quotes are taken out of context or where context is just completely ignored. It was based on a comment made in a non-canon crossover where a being that was not actually the Dark Phoenix but something made from the Xmens memories of Dark Phoenix says that Raven is tainted by an evil that rivals her own, not power. This goes directly to Ravens dark nature as a demon hybrid thus having a great potential for evil much like the Dark Phoenix had. There is absolutely nothing in all the realms that shows Raven having even as much psi power as a Jean Grey tapping her full power let alone Phoenix/Jean. Jean tapping her full power begins to approach Phoenix level powers, as Xavier said before she dies in the Sun and actually becomes Phoenix, the potential she was accessing has reserves of power on a cosmic scale, this all while she was just omega level mutant Jean Grey, at this point like she told Wolverine the Phoenix was only speaking to her, not giving her power.

The only way Raven can win is BFR and that's if Jean doesn't shut her mind off or rip her to shreds first. I was also under the impression that she needs her soul self to actually teleport things? With her soul self being basically an astral projection it would be vulnerable to Jean telepathic attacks.

Jean wins.