Ra's Al Ghul vs Black Widow (H2H)

Sure, but the argument cannot be made that Armor, Rogue, Storm, etc have skill on par or exceeding Ra's just because they trained with Wolverine. Sparring with Logan is nice, but beating him would be an actual feat. Sparring matches typically do not feature serious intent from at least one side; Batman and Black Canary have both beaten Wonder Woman in sparring matches.

@Alchemist_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

Sure, but the argument cannot be made that Armor, Rogue, Storm, etc have skill on par or exceeding Ra's just because they trained with Wolverine. Sparring with Logan is nice, but beating him would be an actual feat. Sparring matches typically do not feature serious intent from at least one side; Batman and Black Canary have both beaten Wonder Woman in sparring matches.

Don't know about Rouge but Armor and Storm are pretty good. Whether they are on par with Ra's or not, I don't know I'm unsure what level Ra's is actually on as most of the fights i've seen him in he's been armed and even alot of them weren't that impressive. Black Widow has a limited # of showings where she uses little to know weaponry. I simply posted what ever I possibly could for unarmed combat. Obviously she didn't beat anyone as skilled as Batman, but I would argue..based on what i've seen from Batman I don't think he's anymore capable of beating Batman in a fair unarmed fight than Black Widow is to do the same to Wolverine. I'm not expert on Ra's but correct me if i'm wrong, are his feats armed or unarmed in anyway comparable to feats of skill you've seen from Bruce Wayne?

I don't think the gap between Ra's and Batman is as big as the one between Widow and Wolverine. Ra's feats unarmed or armed are comparable to Batman's in the sense that he can consistently give Bruce hell in a fight, but it is true that Batman will take a majority in either scenario. Comparing either combatant to Batman, Ra's is more likely to beat him than Widow is.

I don't think the gap between Ra's and Batman is as big as the one between Widow and Wolverine. Ra's feats unarmed or armed are comparable to Batman's in the sense that he can consistently give Bruce hell in a fight, but it is true that Batman will take a majority in either scenario. Comparing either combatant to Batman, Ra's is more likely to beat him than Widow is.

@Alchemist_: Yes, yes, but it's not like Widow hasn't been shot and critically injured by a fodder thug in her own mini. Or had her ass kicked by two featless members of the Dora Milaje. Every character has their down moments, and if I'm not mistaken that fight you posted takes place immediately after Resurrection, Ra's was not in the best of shape at the time. I think he was in the White Ghost's body as well.

@Alchemist_: Yes, yes, but it's not like Widow hasn't been shot and critically injured by a fodder thug in her own mini. Or had her ass kicked by two featless members of the Dora Milaje. Every character has their down moments, and if I'm not mistaken that fight you posted takes place immediately after Resurrection, Ra's was not in the best of shape at the time. I think he was in the White Ghost's body as well.

@Alchemist_: Loeb.

There's already one set of scans up there of a dying Ra's killing Bruce with a shovel.

@Alchemist_: Loeb.

There's already one set of scans up there of a dying Ra's killing Bruce with a shovel.

@Alchemist_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Alchemist_: Loeb.

There's already one set of scans up there of a dying Ra's killing Bruce with a shovel.

So you're saying it's bad writing, because I that's what I think Ra's killing Batman with a shovel is.

I'm saying so, yes, because Loeb has a verrrrrrrry long record of such things. Ra's has also fought Batman H2H for an hour without pause, something that is a) beyond Widow's capabilities, and b) more supportive of the idea that he could kill Batman with a shovel. And if even if those showings you posted were accepted as Ra's average, I really don't see why Widow would fare any better against Batman.

I'm saying so, yes, because Loeb has a verrrrrrrry long record of such things. Ra's has also fought Batman H2H for an hour without pause, something that is a) beyond Widow's capabilities, and b) more supportive of the idea that he could kill Batman with a shovel. And if even if those showings you posted were accepted as Ra's average, I really don't see why Widow would fare any better against Batman.

@Alchemist_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

I'm saying so, yes, because Loeb has a verrrrrrrry long record of such things. Ra's has also fought Batman H2H for an hour without pause, something that is a) beyond Widow's capabilities, and b) more supportive of the idea that he could kill Batman with a shovel. And if even if those showings you posted were accepted as Ra's average, I really don't see why Widow would fare any better against Batman.

I'm not arguing whether Black Widow is capable of duplicating what Ra's has done against Batman, I'm trying to expose whether Ra's is skilled enough to do it in the first place. The fight you mention where Ra's fought Batman for hours is, really old..right? Aren't alot of Batman's best feats more recent then that?

That was actually back in the day when writers were playing up Batman's "mastery of all martial arts" and physical abilities. He used his utility belt more and more often after that. And the older stories are the best source of Ra's feats, primarily because in later arcs like Death and the Maidens, Resurrection and so on he was dying (in Resurrection his body was actually falling apart before the eyes) so his showings there for the most part are what you'd expect from someone with basically both feet in the grave.

That was actually back in the day when writers were playing up Batman's "mastery of all martial arts" and physical abilities. He used his utility belt more and more often after that. And the older stories are the best source of Ra's feats, primarily because in later arcs like Death and the Maidens, Resurrection and so on he was dying (in Resurrection his body was actually falling apart before the eyes) so his showings there for the most part are what you'd expect from someone with basically both feet in the grave.

@Alchemist_: I think Ra's at his prime would win, yes.

@Alchemist_: I think Ra's at his prime would win, yes.

@Alchemist_: I think that Ra's at his prime has the edge in skill and is physically capable enough that there is virtually no disparity between his stats and Widow's, so it's mainly the skill that would give him the win.

@Alchemist_: I think that Ra's at his prime has the edge in skill and is physically capable enough that there is virtually no disparity between his stats and Widow's, so it's mainly the skill that would give him the win.

@Alchemist_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Alchemist_: I think that Ra's at his prime has the edge in skill and is physically capable enough that there is virtually no disparity between his stats and Widow's, so it's mainly the skill that would give him the win.

Ra's Al Ghul is peak human?

Not enough material to accurately say yes or no.

Not enough material to accurately say yes or no.

It seems like Ghul is just an assumed win by people. Feat wise surely Black Widow has done more H2H damage and despite the whole age difference thing Widow is pretty awesome.

@Alchemist_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

Not enough material to accurately say yes or no.

Ok, so then I don't understand how her physical stats won't be a factor.

Because they weren't a factor to several opponents that she's fought who haven't had enough feats to prove that they were peak human, or even any feats at all. I hear the same thing all the time about Captain America, people talk about how his stats will give him the win, but his stats don't make the difference in fights against other top-tier street levelers as much as his skills do.

black widow

Because they weren't a factor to several opponents that she's fought who haven't had enough feats to prove that they were peak human, or even any feats at all. I hear the same thing all the time about Captain America, people talk about how his stats will give him the win, but his stats don't make the difference in fights against other top-tier street levelers as much as his skills do.

@Vance Astro said:

@CitizenBane said:

Because they weren't a factor to several opponents that she's fought who haven't had enough feats to prove that they were peak human, or even any feats at all. I hear the same thing all the time about Captain America, people talk about how his stats will give him the win, but his stats don't make the difference in fights against other top-tier street levelers as much as his skills do.

I'm not suggesting her stats alone would give her the win. Both she and Captain America are skilled fighters. I don't know by what margin you believe Ra's is better than her h2h although he doesn't really have very many feats himself but I don't think it's by enough that her speed and strength can't be and edge for her. Being skilled along with being faster makes it more likely she will hit him, as well her strength and durability being beyond his making it more likely that she will deliver a knockout blow before he does.

Cap is more skilled than Black Widow (or at least has more impressive showings to back up said skill) by a considerable margin. I think that if Ra's can fight Batman H2H for an hour without pause, he is more skilled than Widow because she cannot replicate that feat given the chance. Nightwing is faster than Widow, Ra's managed to match his strikes in the two fights that they had (albeit they were sword fights), and as for strength, Ra's has no strength feats for obvious reasons, but it seems that Batman holds his striking power in regard, since during A Death in the Family he compared Shiva to him:

Fool, don't give out your alts away. SMH.
BB

@Vance Astro said:

I'm Alchemist_ BTW.

I had a sneaking suspicion...

Cap is more skilled than Black Widow (or at least has more impressive showings to back up said skill) by a considerable margin. I think that if Ra's can fight Batman H2H for an hour without pause, he is more skilled than Widow because she cannot replicate that feat given the chance. Nightwing is faster than Widow, Ra's managed to match his strikes in the two fights that they had (albeit they were sword fights), and as for strength, Ra's has no strength feats for obvious reasons, but it seems that Batman holds his striking power in regard, since during A Death in the Family he compared Shiva to him:

Fool, don't give out your alts away. SMH.
BB

Ra's Al Ghul has this.

He is able to give Batman and Nightwing decent fights and all I have seen from Widow is beating second rate martial artists (Ronin etc) and sparring with Wolverine.

Just to point out (and I'm sure everyone involved in that conversation long knows this now), the Shovel fight is not a feat, its stated on panel that Batman is half-dead from poisoning before that fight even begins, the fight was essentially two half-dead people brawling.

Ra's best post-crisis fight against Batman I think was in The Chalice, where Ra's had a sword and Batman was unarmed IIRC

With a sword he destroys her,, but without she would take a slim majority. She gives everyone good fights which include Logan and Elektra... I don't remember many ra's fights without the sword where he done as well but its still really close either way...

@newecho: he stomped batman without swords and fought him for an hour straight

which story? I would love to read it... I could definitely be swayed to give him a slight majority....

@newecho: look at the scans on page one lol I didn't even know ra's had his own comics

awe lol,, I haven't even read anything on this page lol.. I just went by my own memory.. I like Ra's and enjoy that dude a lot so I can definitely see him beating Natasha... I just remember most of his fights being sword related or circumstances being in his fights. Widow has some pretty good showing and is often underrated in the h2h dept but this is really either's to win.. I like Ra's much better tho..

You mean the scan where Batman had been dying for weeks and he and Ra's were both incredibly sick throughout the fight?, or one of the ones where Ra's had just gained a huge amp from using a Lazarus Pit?

The 1-hour fight is the only feat so far that has been posted in context, which is fair enough, but its from pre-crisis

That's why I asked for the story,, because every story I ever read with him fighting without a sword had circumstances to them... I figured there were.. but I still do love the character..

Ras, with centuries of martial arts practice, has beaten Batman most of the time, so he can beat Black Widow

Ra's takes this he gives batman a harder time than most and I see him on par in skill but batman been peak human wins and widow would probably give batman some trouble but nor as much as Ra's.

Ra's takes think 9.9/10

Black widow is under estimated but rhal has centuries of expereince

Uh, when has Ra's beaten Bruce in h2h strictly?

Widow.

Ra's